Jumping through hoops, a few LEGAL Q's


June 28, 2011, 11:29 AM
I'll try to be brief...applying for my GFL (Georgia Firearms License) which is a Conceal Carry License. W/ license in GA you can open or conceal carry.

Went to a gun show the other day to acquire my first gun ever, I'm 36. Grew up in NY and never had an interest in guns, lived in VT thereafter for a decade and always had a working dog, GS, to protect the home and family. I again didn't think of having a firearm.

Well....the dog is dead now and we (wife and I) have moved south for work and now have our first home, formerly we just rented apts, it was more convenient .

Q: i may have an old ticket (traffic) in NY i never paid; I appeared but then never paid. my license might be revoked in NY, unlikely i have a warrant for non-payment of the ticket, but both of these things could be a factor.

I am working on settling these two things, the warrant if there is one, is over a traffic matter, non-criminal, but if there is one I’ll need to fix that.

If it's just a matter of a revoked license in NY will that show up in NICS or w/ the feds when i apply for my GCL? Am I considered a fugitive from justice ;)

Second Q is a Biggie!!!!

i went to buy a subcompact Springfield 9mm the other day at a gun show and I was denied by NICS!!!!!

I have an old issue w/ hospitalization when i was 20...16yrs ago!!!! i was involuntarily admitted. The truth is I was a college kid who did too much lsd and other <stuff>, my head was all scrambled and I was a selfish prick at the time. There is more to it than that, I was not well, but as stated it was due to a combo of things, I’d call it a psychotic break due to many variables and LSD didn’t help. As mentioned that happened nearly 15+yrs ago but the INVOLUNTARY part is what is going to make me have to work a bit at getting all my ducks in a row.

Q: Now that NICS said no, is it too late to seal the Mental Hygiene Records? If I seal it now and the feds see i was refused by NICS but now I'm ok and or they see it's sealed they may want to inquire why, e.g. am I risk.

Should I seal it and apply or just forgo sealing and follow the avenue of Filing a Certificate of Relief, whereby I have my psych history updated and notarized letters from family, co-workers, friends and colleagues indicating I’m not a wacky wacko, full on banana pancake material, and of no harm to myself or others.

The dumb <stuff> you get into as a young man can make it a pain in the ass as a functioning responsible adult! I'm a professional counselor for dually diagnosed adults and children w/ autism, developmental disabilities, and mental illness...go figure. My wife is a physician and scientist, she’ll attest both clinically and personally that I’m not crazy/ill/what have you, I may be a bit of a pain in the ass at times, but of no harm to anyone.

Any opinions on the two routes 1.sealing records vs 2. just applying for the Cert of relief. Any opinions on the traffic/license thing back in NY?

Lastly, glock 26 or 27 vs Springfield 9 or 40 subcompact? Variables worth mentioning, new shooter, want wife to shoot too. Is the springfield better because of safety features for new shooters, the safety is the shooter for glock, I’m ok w/ this but opinions are always welcome.

Maybe wife should start w/ a little bursa to build confidence and not overwhelm. I’m likely going to acquire a few small bursa like sizes for various spots w/in the home.

Cheers fellas and ladies, opinions would be great. Sorry for not being brief enough...I didn't have enough time to just write a little :)

Oh, I want the gun for personal protection and because shooting seems like a fun skill to develop, more so though, I'm a big rights of the people guy, not a fan (as i get older) of legislators and politicians deciding for me if I can or cannot have a firearm; guns in the hands of just government scares me.

Sincerely-cyruseven cyrus was my shepherd’s name RIP

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June 28, 2011, 11:40 AM
mods, i apologize if this post is in the wrong place, bumping it to legal might be better. hoping to get some responses and insight soon enough, i'm busy cranking out notarized letters to appropriate channels, notarized letters from friends, family, co-workers speaking on my behalf, getting med. records, fingerprints etc. in order to speed things along. The whole NICS refusal thing made me realize you need to tend to past mistakes, w/out doing so who i am and how i appear through the yes of those who stand in judgement might appear to be two different animals.

June 28, 2011, 11:40 AM
You will need a lawyer at this point to get anything done. Trying to obtain the proper paperwork yourself and file the motions etc. is just too much for anyone not versed in the ways of the legal system to make sense of. It should cost you between a thousand to two thousand, unless there is more to it than writing a few letters.

June 28, 2011, 12:20 PM
it's not as involved as it appears, i seal my Mental Hygiene stuff, that may be enough right there, already have all the info. papers i need to do that. if the seal doesn't work, e.g. the Feds want to see what is behind door # one then i have to go the route of Cert of Relief, which involves the notarized letters. all documentation attached along w/ the GFL, letters and MR's and it should be straight forward. Helpful is the fact that my wife is a Dr., I may need an assessment from a Dr. of Psych in the state of GA, the letters i'll add into my file should help w/ quicker eval.

my father (rip) was a judge and a D.A. and my brother is a federal attorney so law is familiar to me. it's there for us, most are either overwhelmed or scared of it. we'll see how it all goes, if i run into any walls, then I'll think about $ for lawyers.

June 28, 2011, 03:09 PM
It's not a matter of getting your records sealed, you need to get your civil rights restored.

Q: How can a person apply for relief from Federal firearms disabilities? (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/general.html#firearms-relief)
Under the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), convicted felons and certain other persons are prohibited from possessing or receiving firearms. The GCA provides the Attorney General with the authority to grant relief from this disability where the Attorney General determines that the person is not likely to act in a manner dangerous to the public safety and granting relief would not be contrary to the public interest. The Attorney General delegated this authority to ATF.

Since October 1992, however, ATF’s annual appropriation has prohibited the expending of any funds to investigate or act upon applications for relief from Federal firearms disabilities submitted by individuals. As long as this provision is included in current ATF appropriations, the Bureau cannot act upon applications for relief from Federal firearms disabilities submitted by individuals.
[18 U.S.C. 922(g), 922(n) and 925(c)]

Q: Are there any alternatives for relief from firearms disabilities?
A person is not considered convicted for Gun Control Act purposes if he has been pardoned, had his civil rights restored, or the conviction was expunged or set aside, unless the pardon, expungement, or restoration expressly provides the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms.

Persons convicted of a Federal offense may apply for a Presidential pardon. 28 CFR 1.1-1.10 specify the rules governing petitions for obtaining Presidential pardons. You may contact the Pardon Attorney’s Office at the U.S. Department of Justice, 500 First Street, N.W., Washington, DC 20530, to inquire about the procedures for obtaining a Presidential pardon.

Persons convicted of a State offense may contact the State Attorney General’s Office within the State in which they reside and the State of their conviction for information concerning any alternatives that may be available, such as pardons and civil rights restoration.

[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(20) and (a)(33)]

June 28, 2011, 07:45 PM
Sorry, for the cursing to all, i'll mind my mouth as i type from now on

thank you for the few responses thus far. i was on the phone and reading all of the day.

things sould work out just fine, i needed a few character and personal reference letters from co-workers, family, friends to be notarized. those letters have to speak to my abilities as a person and as an employee to work in a safe manner, indicative of the fact that I am not a harm to others or myself.

copies of my record, i have no criminal record, both from NYS (new york state dept of criminal justice) and from the FBI, fingerprints to the Feds for there end of it. The NYS NICS is were it's being processed because that's where the red flag is from.

lastly a Psych Eval. from a licensened Dr. of Psy will likely be all i need. my own letters of chronological explaination of said events, plus the letters from peers, co-workers, wife who is a MD, and a letter to boot from my brother who is a 25+yr Federal attorney should be enough.

if not......I'll offer the judge all of my Johnny Cash albums, a steak dinner and a back rub.

thanks guys, looking forward to posting here about various gun related topics. I'm a big fan of learning and sharing info. on how our govt and constititution work. i'm a novice in the firearms world but want to be a good representation of what a lawful conceal carry citizen should be.

dividing my free time between learning the laws, learning how to be safe w/ a gun (# 1 in my book), and learning how to be a proficient shooter. the best self defense weapon is the one you feel good carrying and are good at shooting.

again thank you.

June 29, 2011, 01:55 AM
A nics denial does not necessarily denote ineligibility for purchasing firearms, it just means the FFL can't sell to you. Have you looked into face-to-face sales in your state?

June 29, 2011, 04:50 AM
A nics denial does not necessarily denote ineligibility for purchasing firearms, it just means the FFL can't sell to you. Have you looked into face-to-face sales in your state?

Evan if he could legaly do a private purchase that would not get him the carry permit. Sounds like he is moving in the right direction. There is a procedure to contact the NICS if your denied and it sounds like he contacted them to get the information that NY has him tagged. Now time to work thru the system as he seems to be doing.

June 29, 2011, 04:56 AM
Q: Now that NICS said no, is it too late to seal the Mental Hygiene Records? If I seal it now and the feds see i was refused by NICS but now I'm ok and or they see it's sealed they may want to inquire why, e.g. am I risk.

huh. weird. i didn't think they could hold being involuntarily committed when a you were a minor against you. many of the kids in this country are in the same boat.

there is an appeals process, though. i would definitely do it.

June 29, 2011, 12:39 PM
You should let a lawyer handle it. My ex- best friend had a similar thing happen, they actually had issued him a ccw and on his 3 renewal a sealed record came up. They turned him down, he got an attorney and it got fixed. Ask your brother.

June 29, 2011, 01:02 PM
Q: Now that NICS said no, is it too late to seal the Mental Hygiene Records? If I seal it now and the feds see i was refused by NICS but now I'm ok and or they see it's sealed they may want to inquire why, e.g. am I risk.

huh. weird. i didn't think they could hold being involuntarily committed when a you were a minor against you. many of the kids in this country are in the same boat.

He wasn't a minor. He was 20 years old at the time. The word "minor" has different meanings attached to it in different areas of law. Most of the situations, including involuntary commitment, consider a minor to be under the age of 18.

Minor meaning under the age of 21 only applies in limited circumstances such as buying alcohol or handguns from an FFL (and other various specific circumstances that would be spelled out in state laws.)


If you ever want to buy a firearm again from an FFL, you probably will have to go through the NICS appeal process in addition to the legal process to get your GA Firearms License.

June 29, 2011, 02:01 PM
^^you're right. i misread the OP :)

still though, should be able to appeal it successfully, as long has he's not posting on here from a state sanitarium for the criminally insane or anything LOL

June 29, 2011, 02:11 PM
thank you for the replies fellas and ladies. i'm a photo coping, faxing, telephone calling, notarizing fool right now. finger prints for the Feds this week. copies of all my history. letters notarized from family, friends, co-workers. I'm even going to meet w/ a Psychiatrist to get an evaluation, I'll have him read through all of my evidence, my verbal and written chronological time line of nuts to not nuts :), perhaps a conference w/ those individuals ( afew anyway) whom have provided noterized letters on my behalf.

I jumped over a step to save time, usually it goes as far as the feds then your thrown backwards to the NICS are that the flag came up, I'm ammeding at the NY location through nics then going to go forward to save time hopefully.

Please keep chiming in, it makes me feel a bit supported during all of this. The women at NICS was suprised i was so calm, she said often people are irrate. i think it's a pain in the buttm that said i'm happy to know that we keep the people who should not have handguns from having handguns, i'm also pleased that if you go through appropriate channels and take the necessary steps your rights can be restored.

June 29, 2011, 02:13 PM
sorry for the misspellings i'm writing on the ffflllyyyyy

July 6, 2011, 09:31 PM
i'm going through NICS first, actually cert/ of relief thru NYS were the red flag occurred, thereafter (once all is clear) i'll get my GFL (CCL) from GA. no sensce in appling til this is cleared up, otherwise it could make things more messy if the application for the permit gets rejected too.

normally people go thru the process it comes back flagged by the feds and then i have to back to the state of the flad, in my case NY, i'm clearing it all up first so i only have to go thru the feds once. getting extra 2 sets of prints for later as well, getting printed tommorrow for ny and feds, keeping the new prints to submit upon this clearing so i can then thereafter get my conceal carry in order.

in the mean time i'm looking at cool stuff online and staying bussy w/ work and life. looked at the green laser and tact light by viriden for the compact i plan on having for home, not sure if it is a necessary item for conceal carry.

Springfield DX or Glock subcompact....leaning toward springfield, thinking of a 38 bursa for my wife to start...opinions.

also looking into the best shotgun options for home too.

Shawn Dodson
July 7, 2011, 09:52 AM
He wasn't a minor. He was 20 years old at the time. The word "minor" has different meanings attached to it in different areas of law. Most of the situations, including involuntary commitment, consider a minor to be under the age of 18.

Between 18-20 years of age one is an adult minor.

July 7, 2011, 11:19 AM
18-20 'adult minor'... biggest hypocrisy in this country.... we are perfectly willing to send young people this age to die for us but are unwilling to give them their full rights as citizens. This needs to be fixed one of two ways.... give 18 year olds all their rights.... purchase alcohol and guns or raise the minimum age to serve in the military to 21.

as for the OP's questions.... I think you are making a big assumption just because of the denial... you need to find out why you were denied way before you start jumping through hoops and wasting a bunch of time and money

July 7, 2011, 12:05 PM
Sorry I can't point you in the right direction with the GFL or NICS, but I will say that both of the guns you like are good. I own a XD9SC and the XD40 tactical, and am pleased with both. You'll have to make the decision on it, when the time comes, by what feels best in your hands. What I would do is to look at something, close my eyes, bring the pistol up, and open my eyes. My XD always points exactly where I am looking. The Glock always points high, with misaligned sights. That's my own experience, you'll have to try it yourself.

July 7, 2011, 04:31 PM
i was denied because of a inpatient hospitalization in NY when i was just barely 20. i was hopped up on lsd, da weed, etc....i lost my cookies for a bit. they switched me from vol to unvol hence the NICS flag, in the process of applying for certificate of relief, if and once that is granted the flag from NICS goes away. i do not have a criminal record but getting my NYS rap sheet + fbi rap sheet is part of the process...both should read no record.

fingerprinting and submission has been the only expensive part thus far 44.oo bucks to have it done by a private business, the police in my county are notorious for hanging you out to wait for a good month or two, i had three sets done today, made the apt yesterday, 2 for the feds one for nys...it took 15mins.

the nys fee is high because they outsource the background check to a company in Illinois 60.75 the feds cost me 18.00. postage for certified mail + return envelopes was 15.00.

137.75 so far + the license fee for the hangun permit (now on hold until the NICS clears) was like 70 bucks. 207.75

compared to the shotgun, handgun, tact light and laser combo, holsters, second handgun for inside the home + wife's guns...sure she'll want a few, perhaps a few bursa's hidden in different drawers :) + joining the local range + bullets + chicken dinner = way more than the tiny 207.75 i've dropped thus far.

also thinking of getting a DDR shepherd for home protect (my boy passed in January after nearly 13yrs)....dog food, poop bags, the costs go on and on, cheers guys!

July 7, 2011, 06:27 PM
I would consult an attorney. Many of the things that you admitted to would disqualify you from owning a handgun. In many states, you must sign a medical release form, I'm not sure about the state your in. I would think about getting another dog.

July 7, 2011, 10:57 PM
i did consult an attorney, these things occurred nearly 15yrs ago. i don't even drink now, perhaps 3-5 beers in the course of a year, don't smoke cigarettes or other, no drugs. what occurred health wise was consequence to a bad lifestyle and mutiple big losses at once.

i have no criminal record, been evaluated by medical proffessionals, additionally my wife is a dr. who can and will write a personal letter and proffessional letter on my behalf. i am a couselor for autistic and developmentally children and adults respected in my field. many of my co-workers and those higher than me have agreed to write letters notarized on my behalf speaking to my character and mental clarity etc.

to say...many of the things you've admitted would disqualify you is, well...no kidding, if it were 1996. to claim people cannot change their youthful lifestyle is shortsighted.

if i were me from circa 90's i'd be unable to have a handgun simply based on the involuntary hospital stint, i'm ammending that now, pretty sure if i follow the steps there will not be much of a problem. i just have to do x,y,z whereby if i didn't have the issue years ago it would be easier.

honestly i'm ok w/ being made to do these several things, it demonstrates to me that some powers that be are in place keeping those who are not suited for gun ownership from having guns. that said, i'm all for due process. i'm not for just taking away rights w/out cause.

as for the dog, i like shepherds better than guns anyway, having both is where it's at though.

July 8, 2011, 01:31 AM
First, I'm a GSD owner myself. I have a 102 pound, lean, tall, pure breed and he could scare the living daylights out of the average person. However, he is nothing more than an alarm, a vicious one no doubt. Dogs are easy to defeat. It's funny how dogs are humble, loving servants to their masters, yet turn into vicious fighting machines with strangers. I can give him just a look to cause him to put his tail down and wimper off to another room, but he's a beast if you come on the property as a stranger. but again - easy to defeat.

I'm going to let some honest comments fly... You keep touting that your wife is a doctor - so what? And you keep touting that you have all of these letters of recommendation - well, so what again. If anything, perhaps your wife makes enough dough to higher a good attorney FOR YOU, because that's what you'll need. You're not going to find the answers - or sympathy - on a message board.

Everyone old enough to vote, no doubt, has had hard times. You're not the only one. You need to PAY an attorney who is versed in your state laws. You're never going to get the right advice from a internet forum.

July 8, 2011, 07:18 AM
fair enough. i keep mentioning that my wife is a doctor not from a perspective of bragging or to tout but merely to recapituate the point whereby she is a viable witness to my mental soundness. I mentioned the letters of recommendation because by law these are the necessary elements to be included in the certificate of relief process.

i'm not on the board to tout or gain sympathy, and regarding "this" process i do not even need advice any longer. I keep chiming in only when someone hops on to tell me i need an attorney or i am otherwise stuck. As of right now the process is going smooth, if things change going foward i'll remedy that, as for now i am being as pre-emtive as i can be and taking all the steps necessary to regain my 2nd ammendment rights.

all apologies if within my wrting i seem to be bragging or boastful. truth is, i wish i was in an easier position, but i am pround that i've taken the necessary steps to righting the situation as it is.

as for my wife, she could be a fry cook and i'd love her, if she were though, my guess is the court might view her perspective clinically less viable.

Addressing the dog thing, you're right...shepherds are killers from the outside looking in, but to those who own them they are clown princes who will go running w/ one harsh tone from their master. silly but thankful that's how it works otherwise they could not live in the house w/ a family.

again sincere apology if my tone or writing came off as off putting. this forum is a resource and a community of like minded informed gun owners is viable tool, i've been reading and learning.

July 8, 2011, 12:11 PM
Well, best of luck to you and your process. As I mentioned, we've all done stupid things - well, I think we all have and I certainly have.

One more comment you're not going to like. Anyone's wife does not make a good character witness simply because of the relationship. Who's wife wouldn't vouch, aliby or otherwise stand up for their husband, even if they have to lie?

Long story short. My ex-wife took the stand in my defense and blatently lied (when we were married). I was fighting a restraining order where she caused me to march up the street (unarmed) and try and fight our "friend" that she was having an affair with. I lost anyway, but the order has long since expired.

The point is, anyone with half a brain will take a wife's testimony with a grain of salt.

RJ brad
July 19, 2011, 07:50 AM
Hello all,

im new here!

i applied for a gun permit ..... a yr ago haven't heard back (until i recently ) ..... i called country clerks office..... they told me the i needed to write the judge..... so i did....asking him to on the status..... i didnt hear any for three weeks ....so i called his secretory.... and she asked if i wanted a hearing ..... so i said yes..... so now a date is in place for one in two weeks........ so what can i look forward on happening at this hearing?

July 19, 2011, 02:18 PM
Curious to see how the OP's situation plays out. Keep us updated.

July 22, 2011, 12:51 AM
UPDATE: note to artP - recognize that wife doesn't always make for the best witness of character, e.g. conflict of interest, mentioned her letter only as PART of a myriad of personal. professional letters to be submitted. Her Hippocratic oath to be truthful and acting in the best interest of the community she serves does matter, her letter will reflect both personal and professional opinions.

Waiting on FBI criminal record, NYS criminal record, my end is done fingerprints and required documents sent. Notable: i have no criminal record so just waiting on verification thereof.

Certified medical records, 20 yrs worth as requested, even though i only have 2 incidents, related incidents from the 90's have arrived this is a necessary item for submission.

As mentioned, notarized letter speaking of my reputation and character, e.g. testament to my public image and safety; these letters come in the form of friends, co-workers (in the psychiatric profession), friends from Homeland Security and law enforcement at my gym, owner of the shooting range i attend, doctors that are friends of my wife and myself.

Also including a psych. evaluation i'm going to take this month just to add a current professional assessment.

It's a waiting game at this point. once all my ducks are in a row, i'll submit this to NYS NICS for a certificate of relief. Thereafter i may need to re-submit some or all of it again to the feds, thereafter receiving a UPIN if all goes well to ensure every time i buy or apply for permits in various states it's not held up.

cheers to all, it's a lot but i'm ok w/ it, it's important that our rights are upheld but it's also important that those carrying are doing so lawfully.

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