Most DURABLE 5.56 suppressor?


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devilstalker
June 30, 2011, 08:30 PM
Hey all,

Need to find out if there is a more durable 5.56 can out there than the KAC NT4 QDSS. This can is for a M4 with a 10.5" bbl, so it needs to be TOUGH, as it would have to withstand the extra gas pressure from the shorty and the occaisional full auto (not really used that much operationally, but if its rated for it and can withstand it, it is a sign of durability). It also MUST have a QD setup, no threading!!

Following is the list (in priority order) of what I need from this can:

1. DURABILITY - as stated, this is for a combat rifle used in combat theatre, so I will only go with companies that have been around for a while and have proven to make reliable cans in these environments. Obviously lifetime warranties are a sign of quality, so I will lean towards companies that back with these, but its not as big a deal here as the warranty will do me no good in the middle of an operation if the can fails.
2. POI SHIFT (obviously the less the better) - self explanatory
3. DB REDUCTION - not as concerned with numbers posted on websites, would rather get info from experienced users on HOW THEY SOUND. As I have recently learned, db reduction advantage for one can does not necessarily mean the can sounds quieter.
4. LENGTH - doesnt really matter, if all of the above are equal among two cans, i would go with the shorter one.
5. WEIGHT - same as length.
6. PRICE - no object (nice, I know, its not my money:) I will say that if there are two cans that appear to be EXACTLY the same in ALL of the above criteria, which I doubt will be the case, I would go with the cheaper one.

I have been looking at the KAC QDSS NT4, AAC M4-2000, Gemtech G5/G5T. I am open to other brands and models, these three are just the ones that have stood out to me thusfar.

I prefer experienced users with experience owning / shooting miltiple 5.56 cans to chime in. If you have experience with one in particular then please let me know what that experience is as well, even if you have no frame of reference for comparison.

I would like to avoid name brand wars as I need this info for real world application, not to earn bragging rights.

Much thanks in advance

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o Unforgiven o
June 30, 2011, 09:10 PM
May I ask what you do for a living? . If you would have to kill me I understand...

Rubber_Duck
June 30, 2011, 09:31 PM
Are you currently wearing out the KAC can? I don't know of any other can that is considered as tough and durable as the KAC. That said, SureFire is also top of the line, I am getting one of their FA556-212A can for a Noveske SBR when I get back to the states.

You may be better off asking this one M4C or even LightFighter, you will get some real answers from people who use suppressed weapons for a living.

devilstalker
July 1, 2011, 12:19 AM
o Unforgiven o - I apologize, but specifics there cant go over an open source... I am one of the good guys though, ive got one tour in the box and several in other areas of the world. God bless all of our troops.

Rubber Duck - Not wearing out the KAC, thats just the standard we have been using, love it. Looking to add one to the armory and was just wondering if there is a better way to spend the coin given the needs I listed. I have seen the SF cans, and they are a great company, I just am not sure about them being new to the suppressor game and all...

Zak Smith
July 1, 2011, 03:31 AM
Our 223A was designed for a full-auto 7" M16. We completely wore out an upper with almost all F/A fire and the suppressor had negligible wear.

deacon8
July 1, 2011, 05:16 AM
You've got to be kidding me...

rjrivero
July 1, 2011, 10:27 AM
I run an Ops Inc 16th model. Damn good can if you ask me. The 12th is probably a bit more quiet.

The fact that it mounts with 2 contact ponts makes it a very concentric setup. All stainless construction.

devilstalker
July 1, 2011, 03:12 PM
Our 223A was designed for a full-auto 7" M16. We completely wore out an upper with almost all F/A fire and the suppressor had negligible wear.

Ill check it out, thanks

I run an Ops Inc 16th model. Damn good can if you ask me. The 12th is probably a bit more quiet.
The fact that it mounts with 2 contact ponts makes it a very concentric setup. All stainless construction.

I like Ops Inc, just not a fan of the thread on setup from the can to the adapter.

You've got to be kidding me...

...regarding what?

devilstalker
July 1, 2011, 03:16 PM
I have been hearing a lot more about the SureFire Cans being pretty damn good. I have not used one myself, but another source told me they are tested for POI shift at the factory to be "within tolerances". Does anyone know what those tolerances are exactly?

Al Thompson
July 2, 2011, 09:08 AM
POI shift at the factory

IME with bolt action rifles, this is more of an issue with the rifle than the can. We were using M700Ps and experienced radical POI/POA issues on at least one rifle.

That being said, groups tended to shrink with a can attached.

o Unforgiven o
July 3, 2011, 05:35 AM
o Unforgiven o - I apologize, but specifics there cant go over an open source... I am one of the good guys though, ive got one tour in the box and several in other areas of the world. God bless all of our troops.

Rubber Duck - Not wearing out the KAC, thats just the standard we have been using, love it. Looking to add one to the armory and was just wondering if there is a better way to spend the coin given the needs I listed. I have seen the SF cans, and they are a great company, I just am not sure about them being new to the suppressor game and all...
Well in that case no further questions.

Rubber_Duck
July 3, 2011, 11:50 AM
Rubber Duck - Not wearing out the KAC, thats just the standard we have been using, love it. Looking to add one to the armory and was just wondering if there is a better way to spend the coin given the needs I listed. I have seen the SF cans, and they are a great company, I just am not sure about them being new to the suppressor game and all...

Are you military or civilian? Because of you're military your leadership (i.e. some desk jockey at HQ type) is making the decisions what to buy for your use. Even if you are on some kind of R&D or testing team I don't understand why you've come to us. And the military is already using SureFire suppressors so you might want to start there.

vita
July 3, 2011, 12:02 PM
And the military is already using SureFire suppressors so you might want to start there.

Just because the military uses it, doesnt mean its always the best choice. ;)



OP, I cant help ya though. No experience in cans. Whatever you do decide, please let us know what ya think of it after putting some rounds through it!

devilstalker
July 3, 2011, 01:42 PM
Are you military or civilian? Because of you're military your leadership (i.e. some desk jockey at HQ type) is making the decisions what to buy for your use. Even if you are on some kind of R&D or testing team I don't understand why you've come to us. And the military is already using SureFire suppressors so you might want to start there.

So true, alas this is not my case anymore. Contracting work for me now, with LE work stateside. I have some more "free play" in what I use, so I am coming here for users with exp in different cans, because what vita said is also very true, the military does not use the BEST out there by default. Most of the stuff I was issued was good, but built by the lowest bidder.

What do you all think of the YHM cans? specifically the titanium 556 can? I have no exp with one. It says it is QD but the flash suppressor looks threaded, can anyone comment on its performance and durability?

Thanks

Rubber_Duck
July 3, 2011, 02:17 PM
Just because the military uses it, doesnt mean its always the best choice.

Very true yes, but I think it would be easier to use something that is already in the supply system and possibly has an NSN number than to go out and buy something completely new (unless the suppressors are being purchased with unit funds but not likely). The SureFire suppressor is very highly regarded if you do some research on some suppressor forums and the more military and combat oriented forums such as LF and M4C.

Anyways, the OP said he's not military anymore so that does indeed give him some leeway in what he can or can't purchase.

devilstalker,
Are you purchasing the suppressor yourself for your own use, or will it be purchased by your employer? As I said, I recommend LightFigheter or M4C for this type of question as it looks like opinions guided by experience in combat will be what you need to make your decision. Not saying you won't get valid opinions here, just saying the ratio of combat-oriented members is higher on those boards than this one.

If you love the KAC can why not stick with it? It's been around the block, and has stood the test of time. While old technology it still ranks up there with the newest AAC and SureFire suppressors. According to some reading i did on silencertalk regarding the newer NT4s, they have to meet a 1.5 MOA max POI shift in order to meet spec for the SOPMOD Block II contract (the MK18 MOD 1 rifle). Not sure how true this is since it didn't come from KAC themselves.

C-grunt
July 3, 2011, 06:38 PM
What do you all think of the YHM cans? specifically the titanium 556 can? I have no exp with one. It says it is QD but the flash suppressor looks threaded, can anyone comment on its performance and durability?

Thanks

Im currently waiting on my stamp for one of these(stainless model though), should be here soon. While I was shopping around I read up a lot on them and talked to my class 3 dealer. Everything I have read and heard says they are a good can, but a little bigger and heavier than the AACs. My dealer has a few of them and shoots the crap out of them with his FA guns and has had no problems.

That being said I would probably stick with the KAC or one of the other models that has spent some operational time overseas. What works great here stateside doesnt necessarily mean it will handle the rigors of combat.

devilstalker
July 4, 2011, 12:07 AM
Are you purchasing the suppressor yourself for your own use, or will it be purchased by your employer? As I said, I recommend LightFigheter or M4C for this type of question as it looks like opinions guided by experience in combat will be what you need to make your decision. Not saying you won't get valid opinions here, just saying the ratio of combat-oriented members is higher on those boards than this one.

Employer purchase, but as it is no longer a militart/gov't thing, the bureaucracy is not nearly as stringent. I have decent trigger time, so I have been given leeway to decide since I have an idea of what will be the most important in terms of what matters in combat, hence the priority list I gave on the OP.

I came to this forum cause I have gotten good info in the past and I know from exp that experience in the field with equipment comes mostly from soldiers and the like, which limits our experience to what we are/were issued. This does not give me much range of scope beyond the mil/govt contract manufacturers. I figured coming to a forum like this would broaden my horizon and people with exp having / shooting different cans could chime in based on that exp. I know what I need in theatre, so I just give out a list of my preferred priorities and see what people with a bunch of different cans think, you dont have to be a soldier to put your gear through some hell, and a lot of the older... I mean more experienced... shooters here will have some very useful experience with different cans in different areas of performance than I would have, despite my experience being vast regarding combat conditions.

I hope that makes sense...

I will take your suggestion though and try different forums as well, thanks for your honesty.

Im currently waiting on my stamp for one of these(stainless model though), should be here soon. While I was shopping around I read up a lot on them and talked to my class 3 dealer. Everything I have read and heard says they are a good can, but a little bigger and heavier than the AACs. My dealer has a few of them and shoots the crap out of them with his FA guns and has had no problems.

That being said I would probably stick with the KAC or one of the other models that has spent some operational time overseas. What works great here stateside doesnt necessarily mean it will handle the rigors of combat.

Awesome, thanks, when you get the can let me know how it performs. I may stay with KAC, but I am wondering if I can get a bit more suppression with out a lack of durability. The M42K keeps looking more intriguing to me, and I just started looking at the YHM can.... decisions decisions...

Rubber_Duck
July 4, 2011, 07:02 AM
Good luck in your search, and let us know what you decide on. I've helped you as much as I can, fortunately I don't have any experience using suppressors in combat, but I have fired the KAC suppressor at a range but can't say much about it when I have nothing else to compare it too. If it were me, I would make POI shift and durability my first priority. But those are my needs as a future suppressor owner for civilian use, and the fact that I'm stuck with what I buy for life pretty much so I want the best. I'm not actually a civilian BTW, I just won't be using a suppressor in any operational capacity, hence why I say civilian use.

Good luck, stay safe.

devilstalker
July 5, 2011, 01:03 PM
Thanks for all your help guys, as of right now, my fruntrunner is actually the surefire FA556212. I think I might be able to get a bit more suppression with out loosing durability as compared to the KAC. I also like the mounting setup with the surefire, I know its just a cylinder with a bore, but it mounts in the exact same position every time... has to be good for absolute repeatability on any POI shift, which from what I hear is very minimal on the SF cans.

Gonna wait to see if there is any more to consider first, I will let you all know how it works once I get it if I do go with that can.

jbharned
July 8, 2011, 11:12 AM
I have been running an AAC M4-2000 on a SIG 556. The can itself is excellent. I am using the required AAC and you have a choice of the Blackout (3 prong flash hider) or the muzzle brake mount. The Blackout does and excellent job of reducing muzzle flash without the can attached. It does make the "ping" sound when fired minus the can. With the M4-2000 attached I have ZERO POI shift on my SIG 556 SWAT @ 100 yards. If your running a short barrel gun I would suggest using the brake type mount to save erosion on your blast baffle is what ever silencer your running.

devilstalker
July 8, 2011, 01:11 PM
I have been running an AAC M4-2000 on a SIG 556. The can itself is excellent. I am using the required AAC and you have a choice of the Blackout (3 prong flash hider) or the muzzle brake mount. The Blackout does and excellent job of reducing muzzle flash without the can attached. It does make the "ping" sound when fired minus the can. With the M4-2000 attached I have ZERO POI shift on my SIG 556 SWAT @ 100 yards. If your running a short barrel gun I would suggest using the brake type mount to save erosion on your blast baffle is what ever silencer your running.

Good advice, and good info. I will look into the brake mount regardless. I am actually teetering between the M42K and the SF 556212 now. I hear nothing but awesome stuff about the M42K and its way cheaper than the 556212, but on the other hand I have some former SOF buddies that are using the SF can now and I hear it is awesome as well.

So, is the $400 worth the extra peace of mind coming from sources I personnally know? Or do I use the logic that SO MANY people, regardless of not knowing them, cannot be wrong about the M42K.... hmmm....

jbharned
July 8, 2011, 02:06 PM
I would get the the AAC M4/2000 (Biased opinion becasue I did). AAC makes nice stuff but delivery time can be spotty. Just an FYI the AAC requires you to use their mount (not included). I think either can will serve you well and either pick you getting a very good product. I do have a Surefire light on the same gun....

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu178/cal50/stuff/DSC_0012.jpg

devilstalker
July 9, 2011, 01:09 PM
Nice pics. The surefire is the same in that it requires me to use their mount as well, and it is also not included from what I understand.

Thanks for the info tho.

MrM4
July 9, 2011, 03:53 PM
My experance is that all cans will wear out. But not under the kind of shooting that most people due. If your talking about a can that gets used on a R&D rifle that might see 50-80k a year then yes you will burn up what ever you use. Cans like Barrels have usage life. If you can afford to burn one up or whom every working for can, then replacment cost should not be an issue.

As a FFL / SOT I have nothing but dislike for the above mentioned Surefire junk that is over price and ugly. For the money you could own a few Gemtech or AAC cans that would work as good if not better.

You might consider a Thunder Beast or Elite Iron as well, both make good stuff.

WhiteMikeCN
July 9, 2011, 05:47 PM
I would go with the M4-2000... Personally it has the greatest versatility from gun to gun.. I use mine on my 10.5, 16, 20 inch AR-15s, plus my Bolt gun. Here is the big difference between AAC and Surefire:

Try getting extra mounts for either... You will find that the SF mounts are impossible to come by.

I have 4 different AAC cans and I am happy with them all. I actually have a surefire can on hold waiting on a F4 so that should tell you I dont just stick to AAC cans.

Chris

Rubber_Duck
July 9, 2011, 06:43 PM
MrM4,

What makes you say SureFire suppressors are junk? Yes they are ezpensive, maybe even overpriced, but are they really junk? Or is that just your opinion because you don't like them?

MrM4
July 10, 2011, 12:17 AM
They are junk because I can put a Gemtech or an AAC beside them on the exact same host gun and the Surefire is louder to the ear, that and the ugly welds that make them look like they are a 9th grade shop project.

I hold nothing against the people at surefire, God knows they have gotten alot of dollars from me over the year for awsome quality lights but silencers is not something they are great at. IMHO / YMMV.

devilstalker
July 10, 2011, 12:11 PM
They are junk because I can put a Gemtech or an AAC beside them on the exact same host gun and the Surefire is louder to the ear, that and the ugly welds that make them look like they are a 9th grade shop project.

Interesting. I will keep that in mind. My bigger concern would be weapon report at the muzzle, there is suppose to be a test at silencer forums of the SF can on 556 soon, and they already have the M42K tested, if the muzzle numbers are gapped by a decent amount, I will probably go with the M42K. If they are similar or the SF can is the same at the muzzle, I will likely go with the SF can. I can justify the logic that NOT ONE PERSON has had anything bad to say about the M42K to believe that POI shift is just as minimal and repeatable as the SF can to get one if it is noticeably quieter than the SF can, but if they test the same then I will spend the xtra coin on the SF can... I have heard people say bad things about them, but not in the areas of performance that top my list, and I know some people with combat xp on the SF cans that say they are awesome, which is a huge + for the SF can.

Al Thompson
July 10, 2011, 12:34 PM
Don't get to wrapped up in the decibel reduction numbers. If it's a dis-interested or neutral tester, that's better, but hearing one in person and off to the side is much better.

MrM4
July 10, 2011, 01:23 PM
I to am awaiting the results of the guys at Silencer Forums, if your convinced the SF is going to do what want then go for it. But I would also suggest no buying into the testing results to much, I spent the money on John Titsworths site and while it has alot of info there are some parts of their testing that has been discredited across the forums as bias. The best thing you can do for sound is to shoot them side by side and more importantly step away and listen to someone else shoot them side by side. As for the POI changes I can not give a informed answer as to which is best but SRT is known for having small POI shifts.

devilstalker
July 10, 2011, 03:11 PM
The best thing you can do for sound is to shoot them side by side and more importantly step away and listen to someone else shoot them side by side. As for the POI changes I can not give a informed answer as to which is best but SRT is known for having small POI shifts.

I completely agree, and the reason I have stepped back and considered the M42K is b/c a lot of people, including you, say they have heard both back to back and the M42K is quieter, noticeably. I dont get too wrapped up in db reduction, but if durabillity and POI shift are equal in two cans, I want the quieter one. Since I dont have the option to get both and compare, I have to go off of what others that have shot or heard both back to back say. I KNOW the SF can will have practically no zero shift if the mount is attached properly to the host, that is huge... but I cannot find ONE person say a negative towards the M42K in terms of POI shift, all have said it is equal to the SF can in terms of POI shift, and a lot of people have said it is noticeably quieter as well...

devilstalker
July 12, 2011, 05:24 PM
Ok...
So after a lot of looking into this whole POI shift thing, I have come to the conclusion that POI shift is WAY to variable specific to pin on a silencer. It seems that whatever POI shift I am going to get on my host gun from the SF can is about the same as what I will get from the AAC can... it does NOT seem that if I get .5 MOA of shift down on the SF can on my host gun that I would then get 4 MOA shift down and 2 MOA left with the AAC, right? Whatever shift I get will MOSTLY depend on non silencer specific variables related to my host gun and ammo used, along with the proper mount job of the attachment medium for the can itself... meaning the POI shift from one can will be negligable if not the same as with the other can, AND BOTH cans offer complete repeatability in that shift, whatever the shift may be... right?

Having said this, if it all is the case, I think I am going to go with the M4-2000 and the Breakout flash hider attachment to help out with saving the blast baffle some wear on my 10.5" sbr. I will wait for the test of the SF can hopefully coming soon b4 I purchase, but from what I hear, regardless of db readings, the M42K has a more pleasant and quieter tone than the SF can, so if POI shift really has little to do with the can itself, at least when comparing these two quality cans, then I see no reason to pay the xtra coin on the SF can... especially when I cannot find ONE person to say anything negative about the M42K.

Would someone mind telling me if what I am saying here makes sense, and if so is it an accurate assessment? Im starting to see double... I love shopping for stuff like this, but the amount of homework I have done on this particular purchase has given me a headache...

Thanks for everything, all of you.

jbharned
July 12, 2011, 11:03 PM
There is no bad choice between the two and your looking at it correctly. POI shift depends on many factors like host barrel, taper,length, mount used,weight and length of can,etc. The M4-2000 will serve you well and is a very good unit.

Rubber_Duck
July 12, 2011, 11:10 PM
I have heard that the SureFire cans do lock up tighter on the mount than the AAC cans but regardless what you are saying about factors that affect POI shift is true. I did some research as well regarding POI shift with suppressors and there are things that the suppressor manufacturer doesn't have control over regarding POI shift, such as concentricity of the barrel threads and proper mount installation. I would expect using a quality barrel should give you no problems and give you a very small and consistent POI shift with any suppressor and mount combo.

Zak Smith
July 13, 2011, 12:31 AM
Suppressor issues aside, POI shift is primarily a function of barrel stiffness vs. suppressor weight.

devilstalker
July 13, 2011, 01:41 AM
Settled, I will go with the M42K, gonna get the break attachment instead of the fh to save the baffles in the can from the tyranny of my 10.5" sbr.

Thanks for everything guys, I will post follow up as to how it does in training and ops after it comes in.

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