VIDEO: guy shoots himself in leg with 1911 drawing from serpa holster


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minnesotagunner
July 3, 2011, 11:51 PM
Well I figured that I would post this so you guys could see and possibly learn from it. One of my youtube buddies had an accident this weekend while he was making a video. He explains what happened in the beginning of the video.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2nhko55.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE&feature=feedu


Almost makes you think twice about the serpa holsters and safety in general.

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FIVETWOSEVEN
July 3, 2011, 11:55 PM
The was fired after it left the holster, this was user error. I have a Serpa Blackhawk holster myself and I trust my life to it. When I draw my gun, my finger is along the side of the frame. His finger was on the trigger before he was on target.

One-Time
July 4, 2011, 12:00 AM
It was an ND, he had his booger hook on the bang switch

Yukonstorm
July 4, 2011, 12:13 AM
His finger was in side the trigger guard as he drew, the gun fired after it cleared the holster. Basic gun safety, don't point at what you don't want to shoot, namely your leg. Glad hes OK,m but hope he learned from this experience.

smitty704
July 4, 2011, 12:25 AM
Wow I still dont see how he kept his calm. Im not a wuss, but that had to hurt!!

BCRider
July 4, 2011, 01:20 AM
I gather that this holster has two modes of retention. The thumb hook and a side release that the trigger finger needs to stroke in order to release the gun. As we all know it doesn't take a lot of a finger strike to pull the trigger of a 1911. During a fast draw with a holster that reguires a finger push of a guard lock the trigger finger could easily flip into the guard without any intention of doing so quite at that moment. And on a 1911 if the safety is accidentally pushed off during a release by the thumb of that upper retention device then you're setting the stage for what happened here.

On the shooter's Glock there's no safety to bump during the thumb latch disengagement and the trigger stroke is long enough that a slighty bump from residual tension in the trigger finger releasing the side mounted guard lock would not be enough to force the trigger. But clearly a cocked and locked 1911 is not at its best in such a holster since the thumb can inadvertently release the safety on the gun as it's unlatching the upper thumb latch. That sets the stage for the pressure loaded trigger finger to flip in against the trigger.

What this tells me is that with a 1911 in any holster that protection of the safety to hold it in the safe position is as important as covering the trigger. A fact that has been much on my mind as I consider the use of my own 1911 in my IDPA shooting and what holster I want to get for that gun.

For those of you dissmissing this injury with a casual "he did it to himself" attitude you may want to stop and actually analyze what went on. Even if you don't agree with me that there's some room for viewing the holster and gun combination as not ideal there is still something to be learned here. Yes, he put his finger into the trigger guard. That much is obvious. But as he said in his video about this shooting he had done this same draw many times before. From all indications this is a guy that does things right but in this case circumstances all ganged up to produce the ND. And when that sort of thing occurs it's worth looking at one's own equipment and situation.

ArchAngelCD
July 4, 2011, 03:31 AM
I can guarantee you Blackhawk did extensive testing on their Serpa holster and if there were any possibility of the gun firing without the trigger being touched that holster would not be on the market. The man pulled the trigger. Don't blame the holster for user error.

Almost makes you think twice about the serpa holsters and safety in general.
He specifically states in the video he does not blame the holster so why are you??? I'm not a lawyer and I have never played one on TV but I do think you might want to be careful with what you say on an open forum about a produce. A real lawyer might make contact with you.

Apocalypse-Now
July 4, 2011, 06:40 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE&feature=feedu



thoughts?.......

MarkDozier
July 4, 2011, 06:42 AM
I gather that this holster has two modes of retention. The thumb hook and a side release that the trigger finger needs to stroke in order to release the gun.

BCRider - he discusses two holsters in the video. He had switched to the serpa and his 45. Please review the video carefully to understand the full content.

I actually practice taking safety off and drawing, but after seeing this I am going to evaluate my process and possibly wait until I am clear leather to take off safety.

onfloat
July 4, 2011, 07:14 AM
You have to give it to him for sharing and breaking down how it happened. A good debrief is a good lesson learned.

EddieNFL
July 4, 2011, 07:25 AM
Fear the man with one gun and two holsters?

Kudos for manning up.

reuben mishler
July 4, 2011, 07:34 AM
Agreed, something we can all learn from, from an unfortunate situation.

MtnCreek
July 4, 2011, 07:43 AM
I practice a 4 pt draw. Pt 1: Clear the holster, Pt 2: Point toward enemy. I place my finger on the trigger after the pistol is pointed toward the enemy and I consider it the last step in Pt 2. This video makes me wonder if I should take a second look at how I draw. Maybe I should add a Pt and make Pt 3 placing my finger on the trigger to clearly distinguish this as a separate step in my draw.

LMLarsen
July 4, 2011, 07:51 AM
This is why I avoid holsters with "gimmicky" release mechanisms, like the two in this video. My CCW holsters use molding and friction to retain the weapon, and my field holsters use thumbbreaks.

Just my 2¢, as always.

CTPhil
July 4, 2011, 08:00 AM
I think that sometimes we just make it too complicated.

19-3Ben
July 4, 2011, 08:10 AM
This is why I avoid holsters with "gimmicky" release mechanisms, like the two in this video. My CCW holsters use molding and friction to retain the weapon, and my field holsters use thumbbreaks.

Huge +1.
Give me a well molded leather holster any day.

ultradoc
July 4, 2011, 08:22 AM
Hope you recover fast and thanks for sharing.

Nomad, 2nd
July 4, 2011, 08:26 AM
Paul Gomez Wrote an exposé of that dangerous and useless holster several years ago.

Onmilo
July 4, 2011, 08:51 AM
I use those dangerous and useless holsters with several guns.
I even use them with Glock pistols.

The last time I put a bullet down my leg was 30 years ago and involved an 1851 Navy Colt and a leather period scabbard.

Rule 1 when drawing a handgun from a holster.
Keep your trigger finger AWAY from the trigger.

Onmilo
July 4, 2011, 08:55 AM
I have to add that this video also proves a .45 doesn't always knock a man down, even with a minor hit.

I also have to add that if you plan on doing a lot of quick draw McGraw presentations, the Serpa IS NOT the holster for you.
Blade Tech makes a far better speed scabbard for that kind of presentation work but I also feel a high quality molded leather holster is best for speed presentations from under concealment.

It is a good thing this guy didn't lose his leg and I wish him a speedy and relatively painless recovery.

Chris Rhines
July 4, 2011, 09:28 AM
It's certainly possible to run a SERPA safely. You just need to be very, very aware of what your trigger finger is doing throughout the drawstroke.

Are you absolutely sure that you can maintain that level of awareness when your heart rate is pushing 200bpm, your palms are sweaty, and you're trying to fend off a homeless crackhead with a box cutter with one hand and draw your pistol with the other?

I'm not.

ETA:

We can talk about Rule 2, keeping the trigger finger in register, 'negligent' vs. 'accidental' discharges, etc., until we are all blue in the face. The salient fact is, people make mistakes. The SERPA holster is utterly unforgiving of mistakes. If you screw up with one, you will probably shoot yourself. It's much like appendix IWB carry, light triggers, condition 1 carry, and pistols without external safeties, in that respect.

The difference is that AIWB holsters, light triggers, C1 carry, et al., all provide a measurable advantage to the shooter. The SERPA does nothing that the Safariland ALS and the Blade-Tech 5.11 Thumb Drive don't do better...

-C

doc.lonestar
July 4, 2011, 09:57 AM
Imagine that - keeping you finger off the trigger until you have a front sight picture. Had used a serpa with a g23 for awhile - personally I love the safety on them. I just could not conceal it as well as I would have liked.

Let me share a little formula I picked up over the years:

Serpa + Finger on trigger during draw = bad

Serpa - finger on trigger during draw = good

AND:

Serpa + finger on trigger during reholster = bad

Serpa - finger on trigger during reholster = good

All in good fun - I am glad that the victim of the nd is okay. Not wishing that kind of harm on anyone.

Be safe.

MrCleanOK
July 4, 2011, 10:11 AM
This guy's video clearly demonstrates operator error between the guy and his pistol. Upon clearing the holster, he put his finger on the trigger. It matters not what kind of holster he was using, he would have done it anyway. He was trying to execute his cool gunfighting moves at a speed higher than his skill level allowed.

I believe Serpa holsters are great, and the release is in no way "gimicky". If you're getting a good grip on the pistol before you pull it from the holster, you'll be indexing your trigger finger against the frame and outside the trigger guard (on the outside of the holster) anyway. All the Serpa does is put a positive locking mechanism under where your finger should already be in the first place.

JTQ
July 4, 2011, 10:15 AM
I'm willing to concede the SERPA is a safe holster, with proper training, just like any other weapon related tool.

However, I'm not a fan of the SERPA.

Certainly, some users need the retention device offered by the SERPA, but I tend to think most don't.

I believe half the cost of a SERPA is tied up in the retention device, either in R&D or production costs. If you don't need that device, then you've paid $60 for what is essentially a $30 holster.

If you are looking for a range holster you don't need a retention device and I don't think most concealed carry users need a retention device either. The SERPA sticks out from the body quite a bit and doesn't conceal very well anyway. If you are looking for a range or concealed carry holster, there are many better options than the SERPA.

Open carry users probably could use the SERPA's features to ensure the security of their pistols. If that is what you are looking for it would probably be a good option.

ClickClickD'oh
July 4, 2011, 10:24 AM
I can guarantee you Blackhawk did extensive testing on their Serpa holster and if there were any possibility of the gun firing without the trigger being touched that holster would not be on the market.

They did have to recall the M&P model shortly after release because it could discharge the firearm.

Serpas are straight up banned in my company.

M-Cameron
July 4, 2011, 10:30 AM
this is why i like to practice draw-n-shoot, and point shooting with an air pistol.

....if i have a ND, the worst i need is a band-aid, and not a hospital visit...

and well made air guns have almost the exact weight and ergonomics as the firearm they are copying.


sure, you dont get the recoil and such.......but with draw-n-shoot....its really the motion of drawing and pulling the trigger you are trying to get into muscle memory.

Hoth206
July 4, 2011, 10:38 AM
Looks like a case of jumping the gun (pun intended).

Unloaded pistol + SLOW draw until you're ready for...
Unloaded pistol + Faster draw until you're ready for...
Loaded pistol + SLOW draw A LOT until you're ready for...
Loaded pistol + little bit Faster draw

Ryanxia
July 4, 2011, 10:49 AM
I'm surprised how well he took the round, especially after seeing it entered in his thigh and out near his knee, maybe shock.

Videos like this are great reminders to the rest of us that accidents still happen to the best of us.

dprice3844444
July 4, 2011, 10:49 AM
sticking finger in trigger guard prematurely, and no doubt a hair trigger on the colt

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 4, 2011, 10:52 AM
When I draw, my finger is along side the frame with my Serpa holster and my fingers are long enough that even if it doesn't go into the trigger guard. All you do is just keep your finger straight and its not a problem.

and no doubt a hair trigger on the colt

Kimber*;)

Double Naught Spy
July 4, 2011, 11:23 AM
Tex noted quite appropriately that this issue was not with the holster and was a ND and that the fault is all with him. Great video. Nicely done, though there was one funny part that he probably didn't intend to be funny. At 2:57...

After the shot went off, my training took over. I called my parents to let them know what happened...

LOL

minnesotagunner
July 4, 2011, 11:44 AM
The full story is that "tex" was at the range filming a video and after practicing with the glock and the thumb-drive holster he switched to the 1911 and the serpa. He had already done quite a few "takes" the one where the incident occurs was said to be the last one he was going to do that day. When he drew he accidentally pushed down with his thumb, disengaging the safety. He said that the weapon hesitated to release from the holster and he pushed harder with his finger and pulled a bit harder so it would come out. The combination of the safety off, the extra pressure on the trigger area, and the curled finger made a bad mixture and caused what you see.


now for a bit of comedy. Tex isnt actually from Texas, rather Illinois. He has taken courses at "tactical response" and practices defensive shooting, yet his state has no CCW right : ) I talk to him daily and let it be known that he probably wont live this one down without a good amount of ridicule : )

Walkalong
July 4, 2011, 01:06 PM
On the shooter's Glock there's no safety to bump during the thumb latch disengagement and the trigger stroke is long enough that a slighty bump from residual tension in the trigger finger releasing the side mounted guard lock would not be enough to force the trigger. But clearly a cocked and locked 1911 is not at its best in such a holster since the thumb can inadvertently release the safety on the gun as it's unlatching the upper thumb latch. That sets the stage for the pressure loaded trigger finger to flip in against the trigger.
The type of gun is not the issue. It fired when his finger went on the trigger. Period. All guns fire if you pull the trigger. Regardless of whether the holster flicked off the 1911 safety, it won't fire if the trigger isn't pulled. If the hammer slips on a 1911 due to too light/improper sear engagement, the safety notch will catch the hammer.

He pulled the trigger too soon, which is why it is called a negligent discharge.

His point is to be careful, because it can happen, and does.

kingpin008
July 4, 2011, 01:13 PM
Almost makes you think twice about the serpa holsters

Not really. He states pretty clearly that this was a negligent discharge on his part and was not caused by the holster.

Glad he wasn't hurt worse, and that he had the huevos to post such an honest video about it.

Apocalypse-Now
July 4, 2011, 01:54 PM
Hope you recover fast and thanks for sharing.

that's not me in the vid! lol

just found it on youtube and wanted to share it. :)

KodiakBeer
July 4, 2011, 02:06 PM
My advice to "Tex".

1. Forget all these plastic gadget holsters and get some good leather. If you're worried about retention, get a thumb-break leather holster.

2. Keep the safety on and your finger off the trigger until the gun is pointed at the target.

minnesotagunner
July 4, 2011, 02:52 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBvt-t_Q1WA&feature=related

start at around 2:20 and its just abut the exact thing that happened.

ZombieTactics
July 4, 2011, 05:30 PM
Tex is a good friend. He called me right as he was getting in the ambulance. I think his video was a completely professional and accurate description of the incident.

BBroadside
July 4, 2011, 09:03 PM
All I have to say is, I'm glad the injury wasn't worse. The idea of a close-range bullet wound to a KNEE just freaks me out. (Not that it would be WORSE than a torso hit, but for some reason it is scarier. I'm eccentric that way.)

Frozen North
July 4, 2011, 09:39 PM
I have a serpa for my glock. It places your finger perfectly on the side of the frame during the draw. If you draw straight and keep your finger where the button is, you will never find yourself with your finger inside the guard.

The number one thing I like about the serpa is how it "helps" you learn to draw safely. Your finger needs to be in proper position or the gun stays in the holster. The release on the serpa feels very natural to me. I don't ever fight with it like a thumb break. IMO, it's faster too.

Keep your booger hook off the bang button. It's not the gun or the holster's fault when you have a ND.

I would like to add that SERPA holsters stick out a mile and are a poor choice for concealment.

KimberUltra
July 4, 2011, 09:43 PM
I give him a ton of credit and not blaming it on everything else. Good lesson learned for everyone

Joe Vaquero
July 4, 2011, 10:54 PM
"that's when my training took over"....lol. It should have taken over a little sooner like before you shot yourself in the leg. It's just a matter of time before one of these "Internet Commandos" kill themselves or someone else while filming their "outdoors show". Scary, pathetic, moronic, and several other adjectives that I can't quite verbalize at this point.

stratman26
July 4, 2011, 11:01 PM
ND's happen when your finger is on the trigger and you do not intend to shoot. Looks like he needs to practice trigger finger control and muzzle awareness.

JWJacobVT
July 4, 2011, 11:04 PM
Maybe it is not the holster(serpa) problem but the gun (1911) problem......OR maybe he was not following the basic three rules, one of which is KEEP finger off trigger until ready to fire.....

Double Naught Spy
July 4, 2011, 11:28 PM
ND's happen when your finger is on the trigger and you do not intend to shoot. Looks like he needs to practice trigger finger control and muzzle awareness.

Muzzle awareness? I honestly don't know of too many holsters worn on the belt that point the gun downward that don't have the muzzles crossing body parts. This is why so many such injuries occur like this.

Here is a great example showing an open holster (Yaqui slide?) where you can see the muzzle in regard to the operator and see how the muzzle continually covers the leg. Watch how the gun clearly covers his leg on every draw and reholster, even if the gun was perfectly aligned with the holster, it would scan the leg. In this case, the operator has repeated issues with finding the holster and points the gun at himself when he holsters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKgAkwB8WRo

Agent Orange
July 4, 2011, 11:29 PM
Hmmm. Watching some of his other videos taught me all I need to know..

KAS1981
July 5, 2011, 12:26 AM
Not the holster's fault.

Keep your booger-picker off the trigger until you're ready to shoot.

KAS1981
July 5, 2011, 12:40 AM
Regarding the Serpa holster......

I have one, but I bought it back when I was first getting in to shooting and didn't realize there were better holsters out there than generic "ballistic nylon" Uncle Mike's stuff. At the time, the Serpa seemed the coolest thing ever.

Now I realize there are better Kydex options, or good leather to be had. The Serpa is now just something I carry the 1911 in when I go plinking. I don't think I'd use it if I were to be carrying a firearm for defense, simply because one of two things could happen--1) I'll screw up the draw, or 2) the retention button device will fail.

BCRider
July 5, 2011, 01:05 AM
I see that some of you are at least using this as a reason to review your own holsters and draw practices. And the usual crowd is just dismissing it by saying he should have kept his finger off the trigger. In other posts of this sort it was far more clear. But in this one it seems like we've got a reasonably competent shooter that happened to be using a holster with a gun which produced a bad combination for safety.

A holster draw when retention devices are involved can be a fairly dynamic process. As shown in the video linked in Post #37 there can be some issues. It's not always so black and white as some of you seem to think it should be. Yet because we, as failure prone humans, are subject to errors it's wise to look at stuff like this and see if just perhaps there's something to be learned from such an incident and if we have holsters that hold guns which could cause us to behave in the same manner as "Tex" in the video if the holster should balk on us at all.

For my own IDPA shooting I have used two different guns. One uses a self made leather pancake OWB holster which has never given me a moment of grief. The other uses a Blackhawk Serpa with the fore (trigger) finger release latch. I can't say for sure if I've tapped the trigger or not. That's because I use it with a DA/SA Beretta 92fs which is always decocked before placing into the holster. And with the typical long and fairly stiff DA first shot in such a case I sure don't need to worry about any errant fingers accidentally flicking against the trigger and setting off the gun. But having looked at all this thread I sure would be reluctant to use any holster for a 1911 that requires inward pressure from the trigger finger to unlatch the gun from the holster. Seems to me that any such hoster is tending to set me up for a trigger slap. Not a big deal if the safety is on. But it's still an error to use something that may in any way negate a basic safety practice. And a holster that requires any inward pressure that may result in the finger snapping inward onto any part of the gun as it clears the holster seems like it's setting the stage for a failure of one of the basic safety practices.

toivo
July 5, 2011, 02:34 AM
IMO (FWIW, which might not be very much) the root of this ND was in mixing up his holster systems. I'm betting he had a brain fart when drawing, and pushed with his thumb instead of his finger because he had been using a thumb-release retention device prior to this. That's when the safety got disengaged. Then because the gun wasn't coming out of the holster, he pulled extra hard just as his muscle memory was coming back and his finger was moving to the release. The extra effort of tugging at the gun caused him to clench his hand, and this is when his curled finger entered the trigger guard: "Bang!"

I call it a bad combination of holster systems. Keep it simple; if you're going to use a holster with a mechanical release, use only one kind. And not to dogpile the guy, but if your gun doesn't come out of the holster when you pull on it, stop and try to figure out why -- unless, of course, you're actively involved in fighting for your life at the moment.

KodiakBeer
July 5, 2011, 04:10 AM
the root of this ND was in mixing up his holster systems.

Actually, the root of the problem was having a "holster system". Leave the plastic holsters with the quick release buttons and other gadgets to the mall ninjas.

ants
July 5, 2011, 05:00 AM
He said that the weapon hesitated to release from the holster and he pushed harder with his finger and pulled a bit harder so it would come out. The video does not support his claim. The draw is smooth, the gun didn't hesitate. He pulled the gun several inches clear of the holster, then pulled the trigger way too early. Listen carefully to the audio, you can even hear the safety being clicked OFF as he smoothly pulls the gun upward 6 inches to clear the 5" barrel from the holster. Then he pulled the trigger.

I laughed at that one comment someone left on YouTube:
"That's when my training kicked in, I called my mom..."

CathyGo
July 5, 2011, 06:36 AM
Funny how many people want to bash Serpa holsters as "plastic gadgets". Just because it's not a traditional design or material doesn't mean that it's crap. There are certain situations where it does a much better job than other holsters would do. I love mine and have had zero problems with it. Getting in and out of the vehicle and turret your gun winds up at some pretty crazy angles but the serpa never lets go. I can also draw down on some idiot too close to the truck and just drop it back into the holster to get my hands back on the turret control and .50 cal. Instant retention every time. It's also a nice straight draw. Not a lot of room in the turret so that's a nice feature.

I've never found my finger on the trigger just from drawing before. Operator error NOT holster design problems.

Chris Rhines
July 5, 2011, 07:28 AM
Actually, the root of the problem was having a "holster system". Leave the plastic holsters with the quick release buttons and other gadgets to the mall ninjas. Seriously? You don't see any way that a rigid holster with an automatic retention system could possibly be an improvement over dead cow?

Funny how many people want to bash Serpa holsters as "plastic gadgets". Just because it's not a traditional design or material doesn't mean that it's crap. This is a cop-out. The SERPA is crap, not because it's plastic (I own plastic holsters exclusively), nor because it has a retention lock (I use a retention holster for some 3-gun matches.) The SERPA is crap because the design of the lock almost guarantees an ND if you maintain pressure on the release button through the drawstroke.

I've seen three or four similar videos of NDs while using SERPA holsters. Operator error all, but the holster design was a major contributing factor in each one.

-C

nofishbob
July 5, 2011, 09:40 AM
Chris Rhines:
The SERPA is crap because the design of the lock almost guarantees an ND if you maintain pressure on the release button through the drawstroke.

I have less experience than you do, but this statement. IMHO, is not true in all cases.

I have practiced with a SERPA and Glock 21 over and over. My index finger does not ever end up on the trigger! One has to move their finger down towards the trigger after pushing the release button, at least on my Glock/SERPA combination.

If I press the button while drawing the gun, my finger ends up on the side of the frame, almost on the slide, every time.

High stress situations, training on different holsters, different gun dimensions, hand size and more could change the relationship between hand, holster, and gun.

Further, how do you pull a trigger with a straight finger? Even if the release button was right over the trigger, a straight finger would never cause an ND.

Again, in my opinion, a ND with a SERPA requires BOTH moving your finger down towards the trigger after releasing the latch, and curling your trigger finger during the draw.

Bob

Jonah71
July 5, 2011, 10:22 AM
I use the blackhawk serpa holster for both the G23 and G26 and it's very hard for me to understand how this sort of thing could happen. I'd use one for my old Kimber BP Pro if I could find one. I also have Tagua molded leather holsters for most of my guns and I like them too. I think they produce less wear on the guns and work just fine. It all depends on where I'm going and what I'm wearing.

FoMoGo
July 5, 2011, 10:26 AM
What exactly is a hyena dirt shooter?


Jim

tipoc
July 5, 2011, 02:09 PM
What exactly is a hyena dirt shooter?

Good question.

Anyways I believe that all the information we need to know is provided by Tex in his video. Not on the dirt shooter stuff but on the problems he had that day.

First he explains that he was practicing his draw earlier that day with a completely different gun in a completely different holster. Earlier he was drawing a Glock from a 5-11 thumb drive rig. Here is a link to those holsters so a fella can compare the two types of rigs.

http://www.lapolicegear.com/5tareho.html

The 5-11 requires that the thumb of the gun hand move alongside the left side of the slide to deactivate the retention device.

Tex explains that he transitioned to the 1911 in the Sherpa rig to continue practicing.

At this point you can see the possibilities for trouble increasing quite a bit. Different holsters with different retention systems and completely different guns with quite different modes of operation going back to back in drills where muscle memory is required for smoothness and the fella is working on his speed. We can add here the video camera rolling and his desire to look competent in front of it.

Tex says that he went to disengage the retention from the Sherpa by using his strong hand thumb the way he had been doing it for the 5-11. This caused him to disengage the safety of the 1911 while the gun was still in the rig, not a good thing. He tried to pull the gun up from the holster but it resisted and he recovered rapidly (you can't see an obvious double tug on the gun but a smooth draw did become a jerk) and used his trigger finger to disengage the retention device of the Sherpa as it should be. His trigger finger does not immediately hit the trigger as the gun clears but a small fraction of a second later, which is common.

His rhythm was thrown off. For a split second his hand, and so his brain, did not know which holster he had on or which gun was in his hand. His finger hit the trigger and bang.

A layer of things.

tipoc

GLOOB
July 5, 2011, 02:27 PM
I have practiced with a SERPA and Glock 21 over and over. My index finger does not ever end up on the trigger! One has to move their finger down towards the trigger after pushing the release button, at least on my Glock/SERPA combination.
+1. Where the button is located is the same place on the slide where I rest my trigger finger. Push button. Draw. Finger goes to side of slide. This is something that I'd hope anyone with half a brain would have verified for themselves before using the holster. If the button were located over the trigger guard, the company would be bankrupt, already.

But accidents do happen. This is why strong side holsters are the safest at a gun range. At least he didn't shoot someone else.

Cosmoline
July 5, 2011, 02:38 PM
It fired when his finger went on the trigger. Period. All guns fire if you pull the trigger.

Pull being the operative word. There's a big difference between my Ruger's trigger and a 1911 with a hair trigger. At a point there is such a thing as too light a trigger for CCW. You reach that point when merely brushing or nudging the trigger (with your finger or anything else) is enough to set it off. Your CCW trigger should be heavy enough so that you have to intentionally squeeze it to fire it.

That way, you have some margin of error if things go wrong on a draw, as they did here. With a heavier trigger, his premature contact with the trigger would not have set the firearm off.

It's also worth noting that he was trying a very close drill, from an unusual position. This is the sort of thing you're likely to run into in a real SD situation, and such a situation will increase the chances that something is going to brush your trigger. If anything, his drill demonstrated that this weapon's trigger is too light for close melee.

Think about it for a moment. If some thug is at point blank, maybe stabbing you or shooting you, and you draw what do you think the chances are that your trigger finger discipline will remain 100% intact as you draw? Don't you think there's a chance your finger is going to get in that guard just a tad early? If you have a heavy enough trigger, that won't be a fatal error for you. Otherwise, exactly what happened here will happen to you.

Conversely, what benefit do you think you'd actually be getting from that light a trigger in a real self defense scenario?

Me, I'm sticking with double actions or at least da/sa's with a good stiff pull. This whole incident reinforces my belief that the C&L 1911 hair trigger crowd are living too close to the edge.

Walkalong
July 5, 2011, 03:48 PM
Your CCW trigger should be heavy enough so that you have to intentionally squeeze it to fire it.

That way, you have some margin of error if things go wrong on a draw, as they did here.
Exactly. 4.0# minimum, and 4.5# is better. Adrenaline is a bear. Light target triggers have no business on a defensive firearm.

The original 1911 hammer had some positive angle on the sear engagement for added safety. (Even more so on a CZ 75) Can't say the same for some trigger jobs.

There are play triggers, and serious triggers. :)

SleazyRider
July 5, 2011, 04:11 PM
How's this for an inherently dangerous design? It's a Spanish Ruby .32, and to release the pistol from the holster, one must depress the metal tab within the triggerguard!

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq315/Magnageek/RubyPistolet010.jpg

Friendly, Don't Fire!
July 5, 2011, 04:15 PM
You really have to hand it to this guy for being so up-front and honest, willing to show many people what he did wrong, he is right, if it helps just one person, it was worth it!

It takes a man to admit he made a mistake! ;)

Thank you for being willing to show this to help others!

Friendly, Don't Fire!
July 5, 2011, 04:16 PM
How's this for an inherently dangerous design? It's a Spanish Ruby .32, and to release the pistol from the holster, one must depress the metal tab within the triggerguard!
A.K.A. - "suicide-gun with holster or suicide-holster with gun?"

Searcher4851
July 5, 2011, 04:20 PM
I think Tex explained the situation well, and was willing to hold himself up for ridicule in an effort to inform us all that no matter how good you think you are, you still have to think safety. He accepted total responsibility for the incident. That's my idea of a stand-up guy, even if he DOES lean a little for a while. (sorry, I couldn't resist)

Thanks for your post, Tex, and I wish you a speedy and complete recovery.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
July 5, 2011, 04:21 PM
Exactly. 4.0# minimum, and 4.5# is better. Adrenaline is a bear. Light target triggers have no business on a defensive firearm.

The original 1911 hammer had some positive angle on the sear engagement for added safety. (Even more so on a CZ 75) Can't say the same for some trigger jobs.

There are play triggers, and serious triggers. :)
I was recently pondering helping a family member decide how to lighten the trigger pull on a 1911. The OEM trigger feels like it will take forever to go off and you feel as though you are pulling harder and harder, before it will fire!

After looking at this video and posts, I told him we will leave the factory trigger in it and just get used to the heavy trigger pull, as that is part of the "safety".

Big Mike
July 5, 2011, 04:39 PM
I'm reminded of my dad's words when he told me it was amazing, how many guns never go off when your finger is never on the trigger.

tipoc
July 5, 2011, 04:46 PM
Interesting, Tex says nothing about a "hair trigger" on his Kimber Pro-Carry 1911. He does not say that the gun has a light pull weight because it is a target gun. He does say that it is a carry gun. He does not say what the trigger pull weight is. So those posters who have warned against the dangers of "hair triggers" and gunsmithed lightened triggers seem not to be speaking to this incident.

The type of gun or the trigger pull weight were not the issues in this case. The operator made the wrong choices.

tipoc

Cosmoline
July 5, 2011, 05:31 PM
True, but from the video freeze-frames I looked at he just nudged that trigger and it went BANG. To me it looked like a very light trigger. I didn't see his hand grip the pistol with his finger in the guard, squeezing.

But I may be wrong--I just get suspicious since this is a 1911 we're dealing with and they can have some very very light SA trigger pulls. I've posted asking him the question so we'll see.

The operator made the wrong choices.

Trigger weight is also a choice.

FruitCake
July 5, 2011, 07:23 PM
Operator error that's all, accidental discharges happen. I call it accidental because in most cases it was accident. Negligent maybe, but for those who call it negligent how about someone that's gets into a car accident and gets injuredits an accident and that's it. If you keep your buger car at home maybe you wouldn't get into a negligent car accicent. Instead of talking stuff, we can learn from this just as I did myself. I know of 2 local police officers that its happened too. It happens just that one time and second. We are not perfect. Wether its a car accident or cutting your hand on something.

tipoc
July 5, 2011, 08:17 PM
True, but from the video freeze-frames I looked at he just nudged that trigger and it went BANG. To me it looked like a very light trigger. I didn't see his hand grip the pistol with his finger in the guard, squeezing

If you go back to the video, the section in slo-mo, and play that back a few times you clearly see his finger slip from the holster as the gun clears into the face of the trigger, inside the guard as he grips and the gun fires. Remember, he had disengaged the safety while the gun was in the rig because he forgot what holster he had on and thought it was the 5-11. He tried to quickly recover from that by hitting the release on the Serpa and then forcably jerking the gun free. In the course of that he hit the face of the trigger on the cocked and unlocked 1911. It would likely have made no difference whether the trigger was 4pds. or 8pds. He had set himself up for an accident.

I agree with Tex. He traces the origin of the incident to his practicing quick defensive draws with two separate type guns with completely different modes of operating in two completely different holsters with different types of retention systems one right after the other. He confused himself.

Would it have happened if he had been carrying a revolver? Or a da/sa sidearm like the M92? Or a different rig? I don't know and neither does anyone else. I do know that the gun has not been made that a fella can't manage to shoot themselves in the behind with. I do agree with Tex in his evaluation of why it happened this time. It was not the guns or the triggers or the holsters, it was his decisions that made it easier for him to make an error like the one he did.

tipoc

Walkalong
July 5, 2011, 08:41 PM
You are supposed to pull the gun from the holster by its handle, without your finger on the trigger. He failed to do this. The finger should not go in the trigger guard until the gun is moving forward with the muzzle away from you.

Anyone could have done this. Just get in a little bit of a hurry, just a little careless, just a little sidetracked, and bang.

opto_isolator
July 5, 2011, 09:38 PM
I hear about this often. How many other holsters have this problem? I would never own one of these specifically for this reason.

johniac7078
July 6, 2011, 08:48 AM
anyone think this may be a fake? why no swelling? no wound drainage? no limp? exit wound = to entrance wound? then the guys does a video about spear throwing the next day? No shock wave injury...just 2 clean holes? no humility?

grebner is no angel on YT and is a known troll, and part of a so called "hyena pack" that likes to harass people on YT. could be wrong, but something dont smell right.

SleazyRider
July 6, 2011, 10:17 AM
anyone think this may be a fake? why no swelling? no wound drainage? no limp? exit wound = to entrance wound? then the guys does a video about spear throwing the next day? No shock wave injury...just 2 clean holes? no humility?

grebner is no angel on YT and is a known troll, and part of a so called "hyena pack" that likes to harass people on YT. could be wrong, but something dont smell right.
If your theory is correct, then he's one heck of a fine actor, you've got to give him that. Good special effects, too.

SleazyRider
July 6, 2011, 10:45 AM
More firearms safety tips from Tex here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s056MWiJjg&feature=autoplay&list=UL4DMWEcN8KoQ&index=9&playnext=1

johniac7078
July 6, 2011, 05:31 PM
he'll get a darwin award soon enough, hopeful before he contaminates the gene pool.

the_skunk
July 6, 2011, 10:20 PM
Fast drawing a 'Cocked and locked' 1911 .....

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 7, 2011, 12:29 AM
Your point? I used to do that with my Hi Power till it was replaced by another gun.

I also don't understand the hate for the Serpa holsters, when I draw from mine, my finger is along side the frame away from the trigger guard. Also for open carriers retention holsters would make a gun grab harder, they are rare but I have heard of them happening with cops and the same could happen with someone open carrying. I believe the Serpa Blackhawk holster is also one of the holsters that our troops use.

FatPants
July 7, 2011, 12:37 AM
I think the biggest lesson to be learned from this incident is to have a first aid kit with you. He mentioned in the video that he was able to patch himself up before the EMTs arrived. We should all have a kit, capable of treating a GSW in our range bags, and the knowledge to use it.

gordy
July 15, 2011, 11:07 AM
I must say that I have seen it happen myself.
The only thing different was the guy was shooting steel plates. He shot himself in the top right calf of his leg. Browning high power in 9mm.
I have done the same draw and target set up thousands of times.
I call it a push and shoot. Never shot myself (yet).
Too fast to the safety and the trigger. Nothing more to be said!
He skrewed up. Plain and simple.
The gun of choice for me in the fast draw game is a DA revolver or DA auto.
And I hope if I need my training to kick in I will call 911 first, then my mom.

Double Naught Spy
July 15, 2011, 11:46 AM
More firearms safety tips from Tex here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s056...x=9&playnext=1

The above video was removed by the user according to YT.

Fast drawing a 'Cocked and locked' 1911 .....

?????? What ??????

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