9mm with 147g. Missouri Bullet getting heavy leading


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sammy
July 4, 2011, 07:23 PM
Hello all,

I just got a new KKM barrel for my G19 and loaded up some Missouri 147g. LSWC's http://www.missouribullet.com/detail...ry=8&keywords= and need a bit of help. The load I am using is

147g. LSWC
3.1g. & 3.3g of Universal Clays
1.135 OAL
Tula Primer


I ran 10 of the 3.1g. loads first and WOW, these things were accurate. The disapointmet came when I looked down the barrel and found heavy leading 1/3 of the way down the barrel. The barrel was cleaned and the 3.3g. load had the same result but not as accurate. This was the same result with both loads.

I brought another load with another bullet make that worked well. Not nearly as accurate but no leading at all.

.356 122g. LSWC
4.0g. of 231
1.07oal
Tula primer

So what do you think? Could it be the powder? Keep in mind the start load is 3.0g. and the leading was the heaviest with the start load. I can only go up to 3.5g. of Universal but I am sure the result will be the same. Both the 122g. bullet and 147g. come in at .356.

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918v
July 4, 2011, 07:32 PM
Try 3.5grs of 231 under the 147.

J_McLeod
July 4, 2011, 07:45 PM
Try 3.5grs of 231 under the 147.
I went to the range yesterday with batches of 3.4gr of 231 and 3.2gr of 231, and came back with no leading. It was a very accurate and easy to shoot load.

sammy
July 4, 2011, 07:59 PM
What bullet and barrel were you all using?

bds
July 4, 2011, 09:29 PM
I use Lone Wolf barrels in my G22/G27 in 9mm conversion and 40S&W.

The LW barrels are .355"/.400" respectively and 18 BHN Missouri Bullets sized .356"/.401" do not lead the barrel with W231/HP-38 loads (just light smearing, if any, at the chamber end).

As others posted, I would do more incremental load testing with W231.

ArchAngelCD
July 5, 2011, 01:43 AM
The bullets you are using are 15 BHN so the pressure and velocity you would normally generate from a correct powder charge shouldn't cause a leading problem. Where did you get that load data? If it was off the Hodgdon site it's not correct data for a lead bullet. The data on their site is for a Hornady XTP bullet.

I agree with the above suggestions. Give W231 a try with those 147gr lead bullets with a charge range of 3.2gr to 3.5gr. W231 is a very lead bullet friendly powder.

sammy
July 5, 2011, 07:20 PM
Well I called Missouri and spoke with a nice gentleman named Fred. He states that my velocity is too low with this load. Next up I am going to try Power Pistol and 231 to see if I can get better results. I will post the findings next week when I try them. Thanks everyone! Sammy

David E
July 5, 2011, 07:31 PM
I once had a Barsto barrel that was so rough inside that patch threads would pull off.

I fired some jacketed until it smoothed out.

J_McLeod
July 5, 2011, 10:31 PM
What bullet and barrel were you all using?
I was using MBC 147gr in a stock SA XD 4" barrel.

ArchAngelCD
July 6, 2011, 12:48 AM
Next up I am going to try Power Pistol and 231 to see if I can get better results.
Sammy,
I would normally suggest using Longshot for your 9mm ammo BUT, it is a hot powder and can cause problems when used with lead bullets so I can't recommend it here. The reason I'm telling you this is because IMO Power Pistol is similar and really not that good with lead bullets either.

I like W231 for lead bullets in the 9mm but with heavier bullets like the 147gr bullet you are using I highly recommend trying HS-6. HS-6 works very well with lead bullets and it's accurate. I also suggest using a magnum primer with HS-6.

sammy
July 9, 2011, 04:37 PM
Well here is an update.

I tried a starting load of Power Pistol through a max load. They were all crazy accurate but the leading is still there. Not nearly as bad as the Universal but about 1" down the barrel was a fair amount of leading. Next up is the 231 load but I think the results are going to be the same.

Is moderate leading a safety concern? If not I am going to load these up with the power Pistol and use them up. I have 3000 of them which was stupid of me. Should have got a 500 pack to test first. Sammy

Archangelcd, the load data I am using is from the latest Lyman book.

918v
July 10, 2011, 01:05 AM
What is KKM's chamber throat diameter?

murf
July 10, 2011, 05:50 PM
sammy, suggest you make sure you get ALL the lead out of your barrel before you shoot again. any lead in the barrel will just pull more lead off the bullets as they go by. use a magnifying glass to see down the barrel, if you have to. it takes some effort to get it really clean.

murf

Sapper771
July 10, 2011, 07:03 PM
Sammy,

I recommend you slug your barrel first. That will give you your barrel's groove diameter. It is recommended that you size/buy your bullets 0.001" - 0.002" over groove diameter. If there is still leading, i recommend making some dummy rounds and pulling the bullets. The 9mm cartridge case has a nasty habit of swaging the bullet down in diameter. Basically, you start with a bullet that is the proper diameter, but when it is seated into the case, the neck tension squeezes the bullet to a smaller diameter.



If you need more info, feel free to PM me.

918v
July 10, 2011, 09:44 PM
I can assure you his bullets are bigger than KKM's bore diameter. The issue is the throat, cuz that's where the gascutting is taking place.

gamestalker
July 11, 2011, 09:46 PM
I use HS6 and Longshot in my G17 with excellent accuracy and really great velocity, but with JHP's. Because those two powders produce a higher velocity round they may not work well with a LSWC, might just make your leading problem worse.
FYI, Longshot and HS6 both put me at nearly 1100 fps with a 147 gr. XTP.
I saw where ArchAngleCD is using those powders with good results, but he also states he is using a magnum primer with the HS6. I wonder if ArchAngleCD is using the magnum primer to off set a reduced powder charge?

dardascastbullets
July 11, 2011, 10:12 PM
Hi Sammy,

Have you slugged your barrel to determine the correct sized diameter?

Are you using a Factory Crimp Die? If you are, then set it aside when using cast bullets.

Are you using a Lyman 2-Step M Die? If not, then I would highly suggest that you obtain one.

Have you inspected your seating stem to ensure that it is engaging the ogive of the bullet? It is imperative that stem engages the bullet ogive properly.

Bullets MUST be seated pristine! Especially cast bullets! They MUST be seated perfectly square to the case mouth. And the case mouth must be prepared properly as well.

I trust that this will help you.

sammy
July 12, 2011, 08:46 PM
I am using a lee fcd. That would be great if it were that easy.

As for as HS-6 or Longshot I have not tried these but the Power Pistol is slower burning and gives a fairly high velocity. Very similar to the Power Pistol. It is worth a try as I do have Longshot on hand.

This weekend I have loaded up some of these with 231 but will try setting aside the fcd and try the standard one and see what happens.

Oh and what is slugging the barrel mean? I have heard this term but not sure what it means.

Thanks again everyone!!! Sammy

bds
July 12, 2011, 10:57 PM
what is slugging the barrel mean? I have heard this term but not sure what it means.
Tapping a lead shot into the barrel to measure the groove diameter of the barrel (groove-to-groove and as land-to-land is bore diameter) to determine the diameter of the lead bullet to use for proper bullet-to-barrel fit. Typically, you want to use a lead bullet that is .001" larger than the groove diameter of the barrel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR_WiL8Dkgw

I am using a lee fcd.
Your leading problem may be coming from FCD post sizing your finished rounds and reducing the diameter of the bullet. I would definitely recommend you remove the FCD for lead bullet loading until you resolve your leading issue. Also, apply just enough taper crimp (.020" over the diameter of the lead bullet) to flatten the flare of the case neck (.376" for .356" diameter bullet).

Master Blaster
July 13, 2011, 08:32 AM
These are lead bullets correct? get some lee liquid alox, and follow the directions for tumbling the bullets in it, your leading problem will disappear.

Harley Quinn
July 13, 2011, 08:46 AM
I once had a Barsto barrel that was so rough inside that patch threads would pull off.

I fired some jacketed until it smoothed out.

Lapping comes to mind :uhoh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml-9oLLKYsM

ArchAngelCD
July 15, 2011, 08:12 PM
I wonder if ArchAngleCD is using the magnum primer to off set a reduced powder charge?
No, the magnum primer is to insure proper ignition of a hard to ignite ball powder. I see very little to no velocity difference between a standard and magnum primer most times but when using a magnum primer accuracy increases and SD numbers shrink to single digits.

sig2009
July 16, 2011, 11:54 AM
Using the Lee FCD is your 1st mistake. With lead bullets it resizes and swages the lead to a smaller diameter.

oldreloader
July 16, 2011, 12:28 PM
Using the Lee FCD is your 1st mistake. With lead bullets it resizes and swages the lead to a smaller diameter.
Yep.. Resizes my .356 t0 .355 and my .452 to .450

mknpwr
July 17, 2011, 06:47 AM
So if the Lee FCD is the issue, what do you use to crimp then? I have been using the Lee FCD for my 45 with no leading issues and planned on using the same for 40 and 9mm as well. Does the leading issue have to do with the lighter weight bullets as compared to the 45 or am I off track as well?

oldreloader
July 17, 2011, 08:44 AM
After my measuring and finding that the FCD did size my lead bullets, I use the Lee bullet seat / crimp die with the seatiing stem removed. I use a Hornady seat die.

bds
July 17, 2011, 09:06 AM
So if the Lee FCD is the issue, what do you use to crimp then? I have been using the Lee FCD for my 45 with no leading issues and planned on using the same for 40 and 9mm as well. Does the leading issue have to do with the lighter weight bullets as compared to the 45 or am I off track as well?
How did reloaders load their pistol rounds before Lee Factory Crimp Dies were sold?

The leading issue has to do with bullet-to-barrel fit and post sizing will reduce the diameter of the lead bullet, especially for some oversized factory barrels.

For semi-auto calibers, it is my opinion that FCD was really meant for jacketed bullets to produce comparable "factory ammunition" taper crimp. For larger diameter lead bullets, FCD will post size the bullet, reducing the bullet-to-barrel fit. Another problem is reduced neck tension as the lead bullet will stay post sized but some case neck will spring back out (depending on the make/lot #/condition of the brass). Leading problem will be further increased for some factory barrels that are oversized as more high pressure gas will leak around the bullet and cause gas cutting/bullet base erosion while blowing liquefied lube off the bullet surface and out the barrel leaving the bullet "naked".

I do not use or recommend FCD for lead semi-auto caliber bullets. When I help setup new reloaders, I have them use just the 3 dies to fit the tight chambers of Lone Wolf barrels. Even using almost no taper crimp of .020" over the diameter of the lead bullets (i.e. .376" taper crimp for .356" diameter lead 9mm bullet and .421" for .401" 40S&W bullet, etc.), they fall into the tight LW chambers freely (for newer LW barrels in semi-auto calibers, you may need to very slightly widen the chamber for lead bullets (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=561116)). When they ask when should they use the FCD, I ask them, "If your rounds work with just the 3 dies, why would you need to use the FCD (4th die)?" I tell them to leave the FCD in the die box.

Some will argue that they use FCD to seat and taper crimp separately (Lee semi-auto caliber bullet seating die will seat and taper crimp at the same time). You can do this by knocking out the carbide sizing ring from the FCD so the bullet seat/taper crimp die will seat only and FCD will taper crimp without post sizing the bullet.

Many reloaders (including myself) have used die sets without FCD and do not have leading problem. If you are using FCD and having leading problem, my recommendation is to leave the FCD out and readjust your dies to maintain the lead bullet diameter for proper bullet-to-barrel fit.

918v
July 17, 2011, 01:32 PM
Sammy needs to figure out his chamber dimensions and match his bullet diameter to fit. KKM barrels mike .355" I had one in .357 Sig. SAAMI chambers have .358" throats. A .356" barrel therefore leaves a .002" gap for the gas to escape. A bullet will not obturate by .002" at 9mm pressures. People need to understand that gas travels at 7000 FPS instantly. The bullet has to accelerate to 900 FPS in 4-5" of barrel. Therefore, the gas will overtake the bullet before it even begins to move. This is why the bullet to throat fit is important.

Notoast
July 17, 2011, 01:43 PM
After I started crimping with my seating die and quit using the FCD my leading problem went away too. To use the seating die, first seat a bullet to the desired seating depth with the entire seating die screwed out far enough that it does not apply a crimp. Then, back the seating plug out a few turns away from the bullet and set the desired crimp by screwing the die in and raising the ram. Once you get the desired crimp, tighten the locking nut. Then, with the cartridge in the shell holder and the ram held in the fully up position, reset the seating depth by screwing the seating plug down until it stops against the bullet.

mknpwr
July 17, 2011, 03:00 PM
OK, the last three posts clear up some questions I had concerning the 9mm cast bullets. I have been loading .45 cast lead bullets for about a year using the Lee FCD and have had no issues with leading in my 1911. Looking at the pressures developed by the 9mm and the 45 I now have a better understanding why people were having issues with the smaller caliber. My Lymans should be here Mon-Tues this week which will be very helpful in working up loads for my 9mm. Thanks for the input guys, you have been very helpful to me. I hope the OP has had his questions cleared up as well.

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