New press/die issue with not enough crimp on 45ACP


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the count
July 6, 2011, 08:49 AM
Just finished setting up and running a new tricked out LNL ap press with bullet and case feeder. The die setup is this:

Sizer
Powder w/PTX expander
Lock out
Bullet feeder
Seater/crimp (Hornady Dimension)

On my old LEE Classic is used the factory crimp die which just worked great. The Hornady seater/crimp just does not seem to add enough crimp, even though I turned the die in as far as possible while still being able to lower the press handle fully.

A test of the rounds in an actual 45ACP barrel shows that while some drop in all the way with a nice 'click' sound, many show a little bit of friction going in and one of my more finicky guns, the KRISS carbine, will have misfires once in a while with the really bad ones. What to do? I could give up the RCBS lock out die (would like to avoid that if possible) and use the LEE factory crimp die, or am I doing something wrong with the Hornady seater die... Or one simply has to crimp in a separate step?

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MtnCreek
July 6, 2011, 09:32 AM
Does the Hornady seater/crimp die apply a taper or roll crimp?

the count
July 6, 2011, 09:38 AM
Does the Hornady seater/crimp die apply a taper or roll crimp?
I just spoke to Hornady CS. They said that the seater die does NOT do the same job as a dedicated crimp die, so I guess the only solution is to get rid of the lock out die.

dmazur
July 6, 2011, 09:57 AM
The "normal" way to crimp .45ACP is to set up a taper crimp die to just remove the bell that was created by the "powder thru" die.

Tension created by resizing is supposed to be sufficient to hold the bullet, unless the brass is exceptionally thin.

Since you're having inconsistent results, you might try sorting the brass by headstamp to see if you can find the culprit. If headstamp doesn't make any difference, then look at process steps more closely.

I would review the setup instructions for the seat/crimp die. As it is trying to do two things at once, I know it is possible to "bulge" the case when you are only trying to remove the bell. Set crimp with seating stem backed out of the way, then adjust seating stem for desired depth.

I happen to use a separate taper crimp die after the seating die, but I know there are many, many reloaders who use a combination seat/crimp die successfully. It is generally accepted that it is easier to set up separate dies.

Shmackey
July 6, 2011, 11:27 AM
Ask Hornady to send you a new seater die that does a taper crimp, not a roll crimp. I think they just came out with them.

the count
July 6, 2011, 11:46 AM
Ask Hornady to send you a new seater die that does a taper crimp, not a roll crimp. I think they just came out with them.
Called Hornady again (hey, let their CS people earn their money). Story is that the current production adds a roll, not a taper, crimp. So thats the culprit. He said they are in the process of designing such a beast but no ETA at all at the moment. The Lee factory crimp die simply rules.

raddiver
July 6, 2011, 11:47 AM
I asked them about this last week. They told me i needed to purchase a specialized taper crimp die. They wouldnt do a replacement.

"Comments:
I recently purchased a 45 ACP die set. It appears that this set came with a roll crimp seater die combo. I will be reloading for semi-auto and not revolver. would it be possible to exchange this roll crimp seater with a taper crimp seater die?"

Reply:
"Thank you for your inquiry. Our Die Sets are all packaged with the roll type crimp/seating die. The Taper Crimp Die is sold separately. We suggest that you pick up a 45 Auto Taper Crimp Die (SKU#044172) from your local Dealer or a Mail Order Retailer. It will cost you less to purchase the die from them than what it would cost you to return it to us, the price difference between the dies ($10), and return shipping. If you do not have a local Dealer, a couple Mail Order places that you might try are Graf & Sons - ph 1-800-531-2666 or Midway USA -ph 1-800-243-3220.
If we can be of further assistance, please call us at 1-800-338-3220.
Thank you again.

Hornady Sales Team
phone 1-800-338-3220"

Walkalong
July 6, 2011, 11:54 AM
Buy a Redding or RCBS seater with a proper taper crimp built in if you want to keep the lock out die, or just get any taper crimp die to crimp after seating.

It would take a machinist a few minutes on a lathe to make an insert with the proper taper crimp built in for the Hornady die. Easy peasy.

Why they do not sell the auto seaters with the proper crimp built in is just ridiculous.

morrow
July 6, 2011, 12:37 PM
Wow what poor customer service on Hornady's part. They flat-out on purpose I guess add the wrong type of seater/crimp die (roll) in the set and make you try and purchase the correct one seperately. Talk about a wrong (and possibly dangerous if used unknowingly) die set. Thanks for the heads-up I will steer clear of Hornady dies and their poor customer service.

All the other brands of 45acp die sets I see have taper crimp AS THEY SHOULD!

243winxb
July 6, 2011, 01:10 PM
Hornday has a roll crimp in there seater die for the Auto Rim & Win. Mag. Hornady Custom Grade New Dimension Nitride 3-Die Set 45 ACP, 45 Auto Rim, 45 Win Mag Plus they are the cheap Nitride type, not tungsten, like real dies (RCBS) :uhoh:

GLOOB
July 6, 2011, 01:22 PM
You can buy a seater/taper crimp die from any of the other manufacturers. Probably cost you 12-15 bucks for a Lee.

9teenEleven
July 6, 2011, 01:25 PM
The roll crimp will get the bell out. However, it's a fine line between that and it crushing the case trying to roll crimp it.

dihnen
July 6, 2011, 01:45 PM
I'll second the idea to get a Lee seat/crimp die. For 45 auto and 9 mm I use the RCBS die set but I use a Lee for seating and crimping in one step (seems more consistent that the RCBS). The Lee works really well, and I can use the RCBS Lock Out die in the station after powder drop. That lock out die gives me a lot of peace of mind, and I wouldn't get rid of it now.

MtnCreek
July 6, 2011, 01:47 PM
If we can be of further assistance, please call us at 1-800-338-3220.
Thank you again.

Hornady Sales Team

Hornady's making a pretty big assumption there.

PO2Hammer
July 6, 2011, 02:23 PM
The Lee factory crimp die simply rules.

Not over flaring/expanding rules.

GLOOB
July 6, 2011, 03:17 PM
Not over flaring/expanding rules.
I'm not completely with you, here, PO2Hammer. I don't use any crimp on any of my semi auto rounds, except for 45ACP. For some reason my 45 has a tighter chamber, or something. It needs a crimp to chamber, freely.

the count
July 6, 2011, 04:04 PM
I'll second the idea to get a Lee seat/crimp die. For 45 auto and 9 mm I use the RCBS die set but I use a Lee for seating and crimping in one step (seems more consistent that the RCBS). The Lee works really well, and I can use the RCBS Lock Out die in the station after powder drop. That lock out die gives me a lot of peace of mind, and I wouldn't get rid of it now.
Hmmm, is the LEE factory crimp die actually a seater AND crimper? Was not aware of that and in my old classic turret setup had the seater from the 3 die set plus the factory crimp as a final die.....?

UPDATE: just spoke to LEE CS. Their factory crimp die does not seat, it only crimps. However, their seating die supposedly can put on a combination roll/taper crimp depending on how its adjusted but does not do the job of the factory crimper which also post resizes in addition to crimping. Wow, never though reloading would so involved.

Walkalong
July 6, 2011, 05:36 PM
their seating die supposedly can put on a combination roll/taper crimp depending on how its adjusted
Advertising BS. It can not properly taper crimp. It does do a satisfactory job of roll crimping, but there are better options IMO.

918v
July 6, 2011, 08:06 PM
As long as it removes the bell...

GLOOB
July 6, 2011, 08:30 PM
Advertising BS. It can not properly taper crimp.
Has worked fine for me for the last thousand rounds of 45ACP. And I do not trim my pistol cases. Set it and forget it. All rounds chamber fine.

Then again, I'm not sure what a proper taper crimp is or why you'd want one. I don't even crimp my other semi auto calibers, at all. All I know is the Lee seat/crimp die makes my 45ACP ammo chamber and shoot.

918v
July 6, 2011, 08:53 PM
Some people don't know what to look for on a round or how the round is supposed to fit in the chamber.

dmazur
July 6, 2011, 09:08 PM
Wow, never though reloading would so involved.

It isn't, really. It can be as simple as owning a pickup truck. Read the owner's manual, change the oil, watch your tire pressures.

Of course, you might want improve the truck's performance and modify the ECM board firmware. (Do a seach for "exceeding published loads")

Then, you could wonder whether Ford or Chevy makes a better truck, and possibly ask your neighbor what he thought. (Do a search for "Dillon vs. Hornady")

Like anything, there are basic principles which are necessary to follow if you want the process to work successfully. Then there are different approaches to the same problem from different manufacturers, different opinions about full-length resizing vs neck-only resizing, whether it is necessary to clean primer pockets when reloading pistol cartridges, and so on.

One of the challenges of the wealth of information available on the various reloading forums is that there is no single correct answer to anything. You have to sift through it all and make a decision based on your own experience, your objectives, (and your budget.)

In other words, if you can set things set up to create consistent ammo that chambers properly and gives you the accuracy you want, it doesn't matter what kind of dies you're using... :)

Edit -

Here's another discussion on Hornady's sliding sleeve seater/crimp die -

http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/showthread.php?t=423079

What I'm getting out of this is that the seater/crimp die should remove the bell even with the crimp adjusted well out of the way. So, it is possible that you are over-crimping (unnecessarily) and possibly bulging the occasional long case, causing the chambering problems.

Also, other manufacturers may still offer seater/crimp dies in .45ACP with a taper crimp, if adjusted to do a deliberate crimp.
Like RCBS -

RCBS Dies (https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/MainServlet?storeId=webconnect&catalogId=webconnect&langId=en_US&screenlabel=index&action=CategoryDisplay&tabNumber=0&categoryId=C09J043N023&route=)

Look at 18962 vs 18942

nofishbob
July 6, 2011, 10:05 PM
I have loaded thousands of 45 ACP rounds with the Hornady roll crimp die. These were all jacketed bullets. When I started reloading lead, I increased the case mouth flair a little, and started to see some feeding issues on my Glocks and 1911s. Some of these rounds were slightly too large in diameter.

The Hornady roll crimp die that I have cannot be adjusted to remove the flair correctly. The ID of the die just before the roll crimp shoulder is too large. The adjustment goes from no contact with the case at all to trying to roll crimp with no taper crimp in between.

I am using a Lee factory crimp die after the seater to remove the flair. It produces ammo to spec, but I have a real taper crimp die on my shopping list.

Nobody has been able to explain to me (and I called Hornady about this) WHY they included a roll crimp die in a set of dies that is used overwhelmingly to produce a taper crimp. It is one of the few times I have been unhappy with Hornady CS.

Bob

Walkalong
July 6, 2011, 11:04 PM
The two things I catch crap about. My opinion on the FCD, and what a proper taper crimp is. :D

I'll tell you a little secret, I am using a Lee seater (sizer and expander too) with it's short angled "roll crimp" crimp ledge ledge on .38 S&W to remove any belling when loading plated bullets. Works great. I just don't claim it is taper crimping, because it isn't. :)

PO2Hammer
July 7, 2011, 01:09 AM
I'm not completely with you, here, PO2Hammer. I don't use any crimp on any of my semi auto rounds, except for 45ACP. For some reason my 45 has a tighter chamber, or something. It needs a crimp to chamber, freely.

That's unusual. Maybe it narrows at little towards the end. I load all my auto pistol ammo dead straight, no crimp, no troubles.

I tossed the FCD dies in the trash (OK, not really, they're around here somewhere)

Redding taper crimp dies rule!!! (The Vikings suck, I have to root for something)

ArchAngelCD
July 7, 2011, 01:28 AM
I'm just wondering why the OP bought a set of Hornady dies when he already had a set of Lee dies???

Dapperdan
July 7, 2011, 06:44 AM
I've got a Dillon SDB, honestly don't know what the crimp die is, but it works fine on both the 45ACP and 9MM Luger. It' a seperate station than the seater die on the press and I've had no issues with it. I think either type of die would be OK as long as it gets the job done. Some insist you should use a taper crimp on the auto cartridges, but I haven't found it to be much of an issue. Before I got the Dillon, I used whatever die came in the RCBS box for those calibers, the seating and crimping was done with a single die. Regardless time at the bench is almost as much fun as time at the range, at least for me. I sure don't consider it work! Such a pastime is a joy. Been loading for almost half a century, don't think I'll tire of it anytime soon!

Walkalong
July 7, 2011, 07:39 AM
Redding taper crimp dies rule!!!They sure do. :)

Walkalong
July 7, 2011, 07:42 AM
Hey Dapperdan, both of the dies you mentioned have a taper crimp built in, so naturally you had no problems when following the directions. :)

the count
July 7, 2011, 09:38 AM
I am using a Lee factory crimp die after the seater to remove the flair. It produces ammo to spec, but I have a real taper crimp die on my shopping list.

Bob
+100 on that. Not that other real taper crimps dont work well also, but to my knowledge none of those also post resize, which is a huge plus.

the count
July 7, 2011, 09:42 AM
I'm just wondering why the OP bought a set of Hornady dies when he already had a set of Lee dies???
Hornady is giving 100 free bullets when buying a die set plus its always good to have a spare...

MtnCreek
July 7, 2011, 09:53 AM
I would try to sell the 100 'free' bullets to fund a good die that produces a taper crimp. You can include the hornady dies for 'free' with purchase of the bullets.:)

the count
July 7, 2011, 08:37 PM
Does anybody here know if RCBS 18962, Taper Crimp Seater, actually seats and taper crimps?

dmazur
July 7, 2011, 08:57 PM
OK, I found a dealer that actually uses the term "Taper Crimp" to describe die 18962 -

RCBS 45 ACP Taper Crimp Seater (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/64403)

And page 5 of these instructions -

Reloading Die Instructions (http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instructions/ReloadingDieInstructions.pdf)

explains why a taper crimp die is used with semi-automatic cartridges and how to set it up.

The RCBS catalog describes the taper crimp seater and roll crimp seater as separate part numbers, as I previously stated. However, the above information may be a more complete explanation.

Walkalong
July 7, 2011, 10:26 PM
Yes, the .45 ACP RCBS seaters will taper crimp, and that is why it is called a taper crimp seater. The RCBS .45 Colt seaters roll crimp, as they should.

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