Nickle trigger/IDPA


PDA






Red Cent
July 6, 2011, 02:13 PM
Who has read their latest magazine? The article spoke to the ROs nabbing guys that violated equipment rules. One was a shooter who had a chrome trigger. WHATTT!!??

If you enjoyed reading about "Nickle trigger/IDPA" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Sam1911
July 6, 2011, 02:23 PM
I haven't read that article in question. I'd assume this was a shooter in SSP who had replaced the trigger of his gun?

That would fall into the No.1 prohibited modification category for SSP:

EXCLUDED Modifications (NON-Inclusive list):
1. Externally visible modifications other than grips or sights.

Or were you laughing 'cause he'd had his trigger chromed? That would be pretty funny! :)

Red Cent
July 6, 2011, 02:58 PM
Yep. Go straight to ESP. Do not pass GO..

Sam, if you use the same trigger, are they assuming there is subterfuge?

If you use a trick (whatever that would be) trigger and contour if necessary, they would never know.

Red Cent
July 6, 2011, 03:05 PM
Most of my DAs and SAs are polished on the front.I never go to the trouble of re-bluing. I do not like a ribbed trigger.
Does that mean I have to repaint my G34's trigger?

Sam1911
July 6, 2011, 03:27 PM
Well, again, I haven't read it so I don't know what the main beef was. However, if the modification is "visible" -- and a chrome-plated something is probably visible -- then they can call it.

If it was a Glock and it had a metallic looking trigger, I'd say for sure something was up.

But I just don't know yet.

Red Cent
July 6, 2011, 04:46 PM
Paraphrasing, it simply said one had a chrome trigger. This is the section that says guns. It does say that external visible modifications included........and one had a chrome trigger. Period.

Guess I cannot polish the slide sides to mirror shine. Oh well.

Jim Watson
July 6, 2011, 06:58 PM
The rule book says that even for SSP
"8. Custom finishes may be applied."

So what else might have been going on?
A metal trigger in a Glock?
Some other gun, some other trigger, obviously a replacement and not just the stock trigger plated?

I dunno. Insufficient data.

Red Cent
July 6, 2011, 07:16 PM
This is in the Second Quarter 2011, Volume 15, Issue 2. The article is the "Inspection Stage at Local Matches" by Steve Koski A01608.

Summary of results.
Guns:
A few SSP guns with externally visible modifications were found and moved to ESP. One had a chrome trigger.

He goes on to point out extend mag releases and other stuff. I am not bitchin' about the rules but if someone spent a lot of money going to a match, who would know that?

Maybe its the way it is written. Maybe a gun had other problems and the chrome trigger.

1911Tuner
July 6, 2011, 07:30 PM
Precisely why I don't get involved with these games. Too many idiotic rules and too many idiots who mean to enforce them to the letter. Same reason that I ran IHRA "Heads up/Run whatcha brung" instead of NHRA...back in the day.

I mean...really? A DQ because the trigger was the wrong color?

These people should stay home where they can't bother anybody.

Red Cent
July 6, 2011, 07:38 PM
Yeah, fraid so Tunner but ya gotta put up with some or you couldn't play any games.
In SASS, we had to put a powerfactor in, we had to put a "smoke" factor in for those mixing black with smokeless, we had to put limits on the short stroke of the lever guns, and ad nauseam.
The PCCA game has a small number of rules. It will change. I hope not but it probably will. Dean says no more rules.

Anyway, when you weigh them together, its more fun than not shooting with the guys.

Sam1911
July 6, 2011, 08:15 PM
Gotta follow the rules if you want to play. (If you don't want to play, don't get bent out of shape about the rules.)

The rules are generally all there for a reason, though that reason might not be apparent at first glance.

And... "I mean...really? A DQ because the trigger was the wrong color?"

Nope. Just a bump into a different classification where guns modified in whatever way that one was are welcomed.

He goes on to point out extend mag releases and other stuff. I am not bitchin' about the rules but if someone spent a lot of money going to a match, who would know that? Not quite sure what you meant to say, but it does behoove a shooter who is paying money to travel to a big match to make sure he/she understands all the rules (they aren't all that complicated actually) and to check that his/her gear is within specs.

The guy who gets bumped from SSP into ESP because his gun is visibly modified would be the same guy screaming if someone else's ammo didn't make power floor.

(Actually, that's usually the killer. Folks show up at big matches and don't know whether their ammo is up to speed. ... Or they're skirting so close to the line that a cool morning or change in barometric pressure or whatever drops their load below the minimum. The MD of a State match nearby DQ'd his own wife for that a year or two ago! ... And he'd loaded her ammo! :what: :) )

Jim Watson
July 6, 2011, 08:30 PM
I've asked Koski (on Benos, where he is a regular) what gun it was.
Because a move in Division would not be justified by a chrome plated factory trigger.
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=132026

Red Cent
July 6, 2011, 08:35 PM
Nervous nellies? Hey!!!

CatsEye
July 6, 2011, 09:50 PM
I don't believe the purpose of the inspections was to bust anyone over their equipment. From what I have read regarding the article Steve Koski wanted to do the check on the local level so members would have a better understanding and not get in trouble at a major match. From what I have read of Steve's writing I doubt he was out to get anyone.

Jim Watson
July 6, 2011, 10:08 PM
But if he doesn't say, we don't know.
I have a bright trigger in a SSR (except that it was stolen) but it is the factory part shined up.

waktasz
July 6, 2011, 10:32 PM
They discussed this in the IDPA forum. It wasn't just a re-finished trigger, it was a metal trigger, in a Glock, trying to use it in SSP.

1911Tuner...there isn't a :rolleyes: big enough.

GCBurner
July 6, 2011, 10:35 PM
I just looked at the scores posted from last Saturday's match, and I can't see any significant difference in scores between the SSP and ESP shooters at the same classification level.

Jim Watson
July 6, 2011, 10:40 PM
It wasn't just a re-finished trigger, it was a metal trigger, in a Glock, trying to use it in SSP.

Yup.
Just picked that up.
Entirely correct.

I am not the Rules Czar (thank goodness) but I think STOCK Service Pistol ought to be held a lot closer to stock. But more work should be allowed on ENHANCED Service Pistol and CUSTOM Defensive pistol. Not optics or comps, though.

I just looked at the scores posted from last Saturday's match, and I can't see any significant difference in scores between the SSP and ESP shooters at the same classification level

Yup.
Allowable tuneups to SSP and good technique make them very close. Ten shots is ten shots, pretty much. But we can't do anything that would reduce the number of trophies awarded.

waktasz
July 6, 2011, 10:58 PM
I think the problem with more restriction in SSP/Production is that it's very hard to police. External mods are easy to catch, but if you have to take apart every gun and know what you are looking for in SSP it becomes much harder.

Jim Watson
July 6, 2011, 11:15 PM
I dare say IPSC Production is closer to stock than IDPA SSP.

As I suggested on Benos, do a real tech inspection on the winners before they get their trophies. Like horse racing; win, place, and show get drug tests. The also-rans don't matter.

waktasz
July 6, 2011, 11:40 PM
USPSA Production and SSP are pretty close. The only difference that I can think of is that you can stipple Production guns. And the XD is OK for Production

jmorris
July 7, 2011, 08:36 AM
I think the problem with more restriction in SSP/Production is that it's very hard to police. External mods are easy to catch, but if you have to take apart every gun and know what you are looking for in SSP it becomes much harder.


You can do anything you want on the inside as long as it doesn't remove any safety device, but only sights, griptape and finish on the outside. Pretty simple, to me.

Red Cent
July 7, 2011, 10:09 AM
I didn't imply Koski was "out to get someone". Didn't occur to me. I realized the intent of the article and was interesting to see the violations. It simply surprised me. I accept the rules. Glad to see the item was explained.

waktasz
July 7, 2011, 10:52 AM
You can do anything you want on the inside as long as it doesn't remove any safety device, but only sights, griptape and finish on the outside. Pretty simple, to me.
Yes I realize that. I was addressing the people who think SSP isn't stock enough.

ny32182
July 7, 2011, 11:26 AM
In a perfect world I would like it if they could keep SSP truly almost stock internally as well, with stock triggers, etc. Since that would be all but impossible to enforce, they have to stick to the external stuff. As mentioned, the differences between SSP and ESP guns are so small that it will still be more than 99% about the shooter skill. Getting bumped from SSP to ESP will not make you non-competitive at the match. This coming from an SSP shooter.

The rules are the rules; it is the shooter responsibility to know them before they show up to a major match. At the local level I don't have a problem letting stuff slide once or twice for a new shooter (If we DQ'd new shooters locally for illegal gear, 95% of the newbies would be DQd), but even there, allowing people to continue with illegal gear is not doing them any favors if they intend to continue in the sport.

Old Fuff
July 7, 2011, 11:46 AM
Like Tunner, I don't play the games, but I will observe that at one time S&W did flash chrome plate the hammers and triggers used in stainless models. I therefore note that if if the competitor in question was using a stainless revolver nothing would have been said.

Smith & Wesson also made and used smooth-faced triggers that were color-case hardened in they're blued guns, so if the competitor had put one of these into a blued revolver I presume it would have passed muster.

Anyway I suppose that if one is going to play the game they'd better know the rules. This is not to suggest that rules have any relationship to common sense.

Prreed10
July 7, 2011, 12:30 PM
I like the idea of checking everybody, not just the winners. At the 2010 Arkansas State match, every gun was checked and unfortunately, some shooters were sent home. Some illegal mods were caught that would have never been noticed unless the guns were disassembled. I have no problem having the designated official look at my gun, as long as they know what they are doing & what to look for.

I've run a local IDPA match that averages 40 -50 shooters a month for the past 3 years. I like to randomly bring out the IDPA box or the chrono for a club match. I'm always peeking at equipment and eyeing guns. Most are honest mistakes but we have had the occasional seasoned shooter try to slip something by the SO's.

1911Tuner
July 7, 2011, 02:47 PM
Ah, so! Okay. Didn't know it was a steel trigger in a Glock.

Still...

It's a trigger. Pull it and the gun goes bang. This, no matter if it's made of pressed peanut shells.

That's why I don't play the games. Hell, I quit school because they made me take recess...

ny32182
July 7, 2011, 02:49 PM
You don't play the games because a steel trigger in your Glock will fall into ESP?

1911Tuner
July 7, 2011, 03:30 PM
I don't own a Glock. I don't allow'em in the yard. I just don't play games with guns.

waktasz
July 7, 2011, 03:49 PM
You're missing out.

1911Tuner
July 7, 2011, 04:10 PM
On what? Glocks or games?

I did games about 30 years ago. It got to be a drag.

Tried a few Glocks that belonged to other people. Wanted to see what all the hoorah was about. Couldn't wrap my hand around one to save me outta torment.

Then, and friend of mine put a round through the side of his shoe with one as he reholstered it...shirt tail got tangled up in the trigger. He got lucky. Just a little blood and no real damage except to his floor and his wife's canned beans in the cellar.

Nope. Won't allow'em in the yard.

Red Cent
July 7, 2011, 04:33 PM
Tuner, pm or em me. Please.

waktasz
July 7, 2011, 04:47 PM
I'm not a Glock fan, but I do shoot a plastic gun (M&P) for IDPA.

I meant the gun games. They are fun. Good way to increase your skills.

1911Tuner
July 7, 2011, 04:49 PM
wak...At my age, I figure I'm about as skillful as I'm ever gonna get. If I'd known I was gonna live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself...
;)

GCBurner
July 7, 2011, 10:33 PM
I can identify with that! Still, I think I can improve somewhat with practice. The main thing that attracted me to IDPA over some other disciplines is that it doesn't require a lot of expensive custom equipment, precision handloads, fancy shooting clothes, etc., you can shoot with what you have and carry as a defensive weapon already. And getting to be a better skilled defensive shooter is a worthy goal, if you think you might ever have to actually shoot defensively in real life.
There aren't any big cash prizes or fancy trophies in local IDPA matches, and you're only competing against yourself, and other shooters using comparable equipment to yours for "bragging rights" in your class. Heck, I was proud for a minute to see that I scored better than Massad Ayoob in one stage of this month's match, until I noticed it was only because he made a Procedural Error that added a few seconds to his score. :D I really can't see any motivation someone would have to make sneaky modifications to their gun just to shave half a second off their score; they'd get a better return by just using the gun as-is and practicing more, if they want to do better.
I shoot on a budget, but with the best equipment I can afford. My Stock Service Pistol rig is a Taurus 9mm PT99AF, bought used, with a Fobus paddle holster and paddle mag holder, bought off eBay, shooting Georgia Arms "Canned Heat" bulk 115 gr. FMJ reloads from a gun show, concealed by a loose "fishing shirt" from Wal-Mart. I have a lot of fun with it, for not a huge amount of money. :)

mgmorden
July 8, 2011, 01:31 PM
The main thing that attracted me to IDPA over some other disciplines is that it doesn't require a lot of expensive custom equipment, precision handloads, fancy shooting clothes, etc., you can shoot with what you have and carry as a defensive weapon already.

USPSA doesn't require that stuff either. There's a division for it, yes, but nothing says you have to compete in Limited or Open. Production is pretty tame equipment with few modifications allowed and Single-stack is basically like "1911 Production". You're not shooting against people not in your division, so it's not like you have to roll with a race-gun.

Gryff
July 8, 2011, 05:48 PM
Ah, so! Okay. Didn't know it was a steel trigger in a Glock.

Still...

It's a trigger. Pull it and the gun goes bang. This, no matter if it's made of pressed peanut shells.

True, but remember that the "no visible modifications" rule is an attempt to cover a broad arrange of things without having to list all the little exceptions. There are lots of things that would seem ridiculous to prohibit, but the rule is intended to be a simple effort to maintain the intent of the division.

If you enjoyed reading about "Nickle trigger/IDPA" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!