January 19, 2004, 07:17 AM
Hey folks, just got an AK, looking to trade my ruger pc-9 for a saiga in .223 - any accuracy issues, problems, etc. with the Saigas???

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January 19, 2004, 09:20 AM
I think I would be willing to make that kind of trade. I have been looking to get a PC9 for some time.

January 19, 2004, 10:19 AM
My experience is with the 7.62X39 Saiga not the .223 - with that said.

Define accurate...

The AK action - which (as I am sure you are aware of) is what the Saiga rifles have - is designed to be accurate enough to hit man sized targets at 200 yards. You don't need MOA accuracy for that - hell you don't even need minute of pie plate for that.

At 100 yards using commie ammo I can get minute of pie plate accuracy with my 7.62X39 Saiga. That's about the best I can do but probably not the best that the rifle can do. My eyes are old and using iron sights at 100yds is tough for me now. I suspect - but can't prove - that with a scope and a good rest that 4" groups at 100 yds would be well within the realm of possibility using commie ammo and maybe even 2" groups if one used something other than commie ammo.

So is the Saiga .223 accurate - based on how well the 7.62X39 does with commie ammo and my knowledge of .223 if I were a betting man (and I am) I'd bet the Saiga .223 is at least as accurate as and probably better than a Ruger Mini-14.

The Saiga rifles are a well built product. The quality of the parts and their fit is much higher than in any standard AK I've ever seen. They're well worth the $240 or so a new one costs IMO. As for reliability - I've not experienced a single problem with mine. My only complaint is that they are harder to put back together than take apart when you field strip it for cleaning.

January 19, 2004, 10:26 AM
That's not a half bad idea. I meant trade as in sell mine buy other.... but if you want to talk, then personal message me, or post here, whatever. There is a little price discrepancy though, but I'm willing to negotiate.

January 19, 2004, 11:15 AM
I've fired the Saiga rifles and carbines in .223, 7.62x39, and .308. The 7.62x39 is the least accurate of the ones I've fired, and even so, I could easily get sub-3" groups at 100 yards with Wolf FMJ ammunition (not match-grade stuff) when using a scope. The .223 was easily as accurate as a standard-grade AR15 - I could routinely shoot sub-2" groups with it.

If accuracy is a major concern, I'd recommend the 20" barrel rather than the shorter carbine version. However, I like these rifles enough that I've bought myself a couple, and recommend them to my friends as an extremely cost-effective HD/SHTF rifle. Very good value for money indeed.

January 19, 2004, 01:38 PM carries them for about $159 for the 7x62 version, and up $20 each for the .223, and the .308.....spare mags $17.99 . I may get one if the tax return is better than I think....

January 19, 2004, 02:44 PM
I love my .223 Saiga based custom AK. Accuracy for me has been right around 2 MOA with XM-193. Haven't tried others yet. I actually sold a PC-9 to partially fund the AK, and don't regret it at all. :cool:

January 19, 2004, 03:30 PM
That's what I'm thinking....
I started out with a pc9, then I picked up an AK. I am now in possession of a colt branded M4 - so I figure I'll lose the carbine in 9 as I have one in 223.

Replacing the pc9 is tough though. I got the M4 for my home and the AK for fun. So I was thinking of tricking out a saiga for the longer range shots. Now I have a seller who's trying to convince me to go for one of the MAC-10 carbines. He figures that with teh longer barrel and a red dot sight installed, it's pretty accurate.

I still haven't decided what to do, as I am torn between another fun gun or a new long range gun.....

January 19, 2004, 08:55 PM
How easy is it to find mags for the saiga?

January 19, 2004, 09:59 PM
Saiga mags are quite easy to find.

Observe. (

January 19, 2004, 10:23 PM
Hey Nightcrawler, the .223 and .308 are out of stock.:eek: Mark

January 19, 2004, 10:33 PM
They'll get more in. Check around the 'net, too.

January 19, 2004, 11:10 PM
do the saigas take AK mags? if not, can they be made to? just wonderin'.

January 19, 2004, 11:34 PM
The 7.62 and .223 models can be made to accept AK mags. It basically requires installing a feed ramp and opening the mag well.

Tropical Z
January 20, 2004, 07:46 PM
The mag wells are fine,its the mag catch and feed ramp that are issues.

January 21, 2004, 12:05 AM
Whoops...I was thinking of the WASR's.

January 21, 2004, 12:22 AM
Preacherman, you didn't say how accurate the 308 was. :evil:

January 21, 2004, 12:35 AM
With Hirtenberger milsurp ammo, I got sub-2" groups at 100 yards with the 22" barrel .308. I liked it so much I bought it... :D

January 21, 2004, 12:55 AM
Thanks Preacherman for the quick reply. I picked up a new shorty 16" real cheap but haven't had the chance to shoot it yet. Got plenty of SA ammo and if it does 2.5", I'll be very pleased. These have to be the best bang for the buck 308 auto ever made. Bren

January 21, 2004, 08:26 AM
I was at the NRA range a few weeks back, and a gentlemen there was trying out a .308 saiga. This was the first time he had fired it, and had done no accuracy tests with different ammos. He still was around a 2 inch group with the generic ammo he brought . This was with the stock irons, at 50 meters. I was pretty impressed and would like to get both the .308 and a 7.62x39.

January 21, 2004, 08:53 AM
I have heard the cobray carbines have little to any improvement with the long barrel.

the saiga's are good guns for the price you can mod for hicapacity magazines and add ak47 pistol grip and stock if you use USA parts and get the requisite ammount per ATF USA manufacturing specifications 5-7 parts made in USA.

all sorts of info to do it availible online.

.223/5.56 and the 5.45x39 tend to be more accurate than 7.62x39. accuracy tends to go when the barrel heats up also.

January 21, 2004, 08:21 PM
Therin lies the important question - in this AWB era, is it legal to modify the Saiga to take standard cap magaines, or must it be stuck with neutered ones? After the ban expires will someone make a kit to make them hicap, or modified mags that look like 10 rounds at the top, then swell out to hicap....

January 21, 2004, 09:32 PM
in this AWB era, is it legal to modify the Saiga to take standard cap magaines, or must it be stuck with neutered ones?

Yes. You just need (I believe) seven US made parts. So, generally, you're going to end up giving it a pistol grip and everything, to get the parts count up.

Various companies sell AKs that are converted Saigas.

January 21, 2004, 09:44 PM
Hmmm, at $159 it looks better and better.

Roger Williams
January 29, 2004, 12:03 AM
Various companies sell AKs that are converted Saigas.

Can you show me where to see some? Sounds interesting...

I think I may be picking up a .223 at a gun show pretty soon. I like the looks of them a lot, they seem to have pretty nice triggers and the price can't be beat!

January 29, 2004, 12:32 AM
Sure thing!

High end, top quality, very expensive: Krebs Custom (

More affordable: AK USA (

Roger Williams
January 29, 2004, 12:36 AM
Hey Nightcrawler,

Thanks a lot for the links! Niiiice looking weapons. I really like that SAIGA M3, ENHANCED... :cool:

January 29, 2004, 06:52 PM
Accurate enough for the mission intended.

For competition, I'd dearly like a Sako or Arsenal, though. It will be mine. Oh yes, it will be mine.

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