Hollowpoints future in America


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Darebear
July 9, 2011, 11:25 AM
I stumbled upon a couple articles doing a google search that was about the Government trying to ban HP ammo.

Will HP ever be banned/outlawed? I feel like HP's offer benefits not only to the person trying to defend themselves, but also to any bystanders that might be behind the intended threat/target. Does the Gov't see the benefits of HP's or do Liberal anti-gun lobbyists think HP's are inhumane and would like to see them gone?

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Sam1911
July 9, 2011, 11:41 AM
If you look long enough, you'll find an article about the government trying to ban everything.

The enemies of RKBA will claim that any thing from a single-shot bench-rest gun to a single round of .22 LR ammo, to thinking about guns is inhumane and they'd like to see them gone.

Don't worry about it. There's no actual legislation on this -- in fact, no recent CALLS for legislation on this -- and, while there's always a need to stay vigilant, there's plenty of real threats to deal with. No need to get too worked up about the least probable conjectures from the recesses of the 'errornet.

Standing Wolf
July 9, 2011, 01:05 PM
Actually, one state already bans hollow points. I can't remember which it is—Maryland comes to mind—but it's illegal to use them in self-defense.

wow6599
July 9, 2011, 01:17 PM
Does NJ allow HPs?

Kliegl
July 9, 2011, 02:24 PM
No, they don't, and you'll get violated for each, individual hollow point you bring in there.

Sam1911
July 9, 2011, 02:25 PM
It isn't MD. MD has some annoying rules, but nothing nearly so draconian as that.

You're thinking of NJ. But even that -- the only state with a law similar -- isn't a complete prohibition, and it has nothing to do with use in a self-defense case.

The NJSP site (http://www.nj.gov/njsp/about/fire_hollow.html)says:


Provided certain conditions are met, a sportsman may transport and use hollow point ammunition. There are no restrictions preventing a sportsman from keeping such ammunition at his home.

N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:

(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].

Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . ."
N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).

...Etc....


So, no -- there is not prohibition in NJ against using hollow-point ammunition in a home-defense situation.

Sam1911
July 9, 2011, 02:26 PM
No, they don't, and you'll get violated for each, individual hollow point you bring in there.

Yes, they DO, provided certain conditions are met. You as a visitor may not be meeting those conditions and could get into trouble.

PO2Hammer
July 9, 2011, 03:54 PM
I'm afraid that they (US Gov't or states) will go after lead bullets someday, not just for hunting like CA, but for practice rounds as well.

JFrame
July 9, 2011, 03:58 PM
No, they don't, and you'll get violated for each, individual hollow point you bring in there.

I guess I'd get back into. 45 acp big-time if I lived in NJ (perish the thought!).


.

JFrame
July 9, 2011, 04:00 PM
I'm afraid that they (US Gov't or states) will go after lead bullets someday, not just for hunting like CA, but for practice rounds as well.


Yup -- the EPA may very well become the biggest threat to gun rights.


.

Shaky
July 9, 2011, 05:42 PM
They won't get 'em all!

1911Tuner
July 9, 2011, 07:45 PM
Don't look now, Shaky, but the single major source of boolit castin' lead...wheelweights...are being phased out and replaced by zinc...iron...aluminum...and plastic, and the lead weights that are being made are being hardened with calcium instead of antimony. They work okay, but the bullets that come from calcium-hardened weights aren't as good as the old ones. On the upside...big truck wheelweights are still made the old way because the lighter alloys aren't suitable for balancing huge truck wheels...if you can hook up with a truck shop, you can still get the good stuff.

Buy'em now and stack'em deep. The day it is a-comin' that even home casters will be in a pinch.

Shaky
July 9, 2011, 08:09 PM
Tell me about it...never thought I'd have to pay the range to clean out theit trap for them...

Sig88
July 9, 2011, 08:58 PM
There will always b a report formulated by someone that plans a ban of something. Theres a gov report for just about everything

armoredman
July 9, 2011, 09:56 PM
Shaky, I agree, but I need to get the Forster case trimmer and hollowpointer adapter - don't own a hollowpoint mold for 9mm. As for lead, I ain't gonna run out anytime soon, plus there is a lead supply house that makes new bullet alloy. Much more expensive than wheelweights, (which I buy cast in ingots already, I don't smelt), at $2.25 a pound, but far cheaper than buying bullets already made. BTW, what mold is that - I like the way it's built.
AZ isn't likely to ban hollowpoints anytime in the near/far future, and I suspect that if fed.gov did, we'd just pass a state law exempting ourselves. :)

mrbro
July 9, 2011, 10:36 PM
If you look long enough, you'll find an article about the government trying to ban everything.

Damn, I had a mouthful of good bourbon when I saw that!:cuss:

Owen Sparks
July 9, 2011, 10:36 PM
It's New Joysey.

The saving grace of hollow point ammo is that it is less likely to over penitrate the intended target and hit an innocent bystander. Expanding ammo is also easier to stop with body armour so it poses less risk to the police.

Shaky
July 9, 2011, 11:06 PM
Armoredman, it's an old Lee 429-214. I wish Lee still made them, they run a lot faster than the Lyman design, but Lyman does make a 9mm hp mold, which should still save time over casting then drilling. Or you can send a mold to Eric Ohlen and have most any made into a hp: http://www.hollowpointmold.com/

Apocalypse-Now
July 10, 2011, 12:01 AM
shaky,

i hear they're going to ban lead as well. so no more bullets, or walmart children's toys.

Shaky
July 10, 2011, 12:27 AM
I guess I'll have to start working on a way to swage asbestos, then.

InkEd
July 10, 2011, 01:37 AM
If they outlaw lead bullets, expect to see a rise in copper pipe theft. Homemade DPX bullets will fill the void nicely.

Apocalypse-Now
July 10, 2011, 01:54 AM
i hear copper's on it's way out too.

Sam Cade
July 10, 2011, 01:57 AM
As for lead, I ain't gonna run out anytime soon, plus there is a lead supply house that makes new bullet alloy. Much more expensive than wheelweights, (which I buy cast in ingots already, I don't smelt), at $2.25 a pound, but far cheaper than buying bullets already made.

I bought half a ton at $1.50 and conned a trucker buddy into picking it up for me.

Know how you unload 1,000 lbs of lead without a lift?

One ingot at a time. :-)

Owen Sparks
July 10, 2011, 02:22 AM
How can the government ban one of the 82 basic elements?

Apocalypse-Now
July 10, 2011, 02:23 AM
^^we're kidding around lol :)

Deus Machina
July 10, 2011, 02:39 AM
I bought half a ton at $1.50 and conned a trucker buddy into picking it up for me.

Know how you unload 1,000 lbs of lead without a lift?

One ingot at a time. :-)
Sam Cade is offline Report Post Quick reply to this message

You're not thinking right there, partner. The proper way to unload a thousand pounds of raw material is with a quick reverse into the driveway and a good set of brakes. :)

memphisjim
July 10, 2011, 02:58 AM
Didn't the govt once snatch up gold too?

230RN
July 10, 2011, 03:38 AM
I guess I'd get back into. 45 acp big-time if I lived in NJ (perish the thought!).


That triggered the old saw about "a 9 may fail to expand, but a .45 will never shrink."

I resisted, but I couldn't help throwing that out there. I'm weak. Weak as water.

I haven't cast bullets since I gave up shooting 50 rd/day practicing for Metallic Silhouette shooting, and I never had any problem finding wheelweights, lead ones, but my son is now casting and it's kind of a pain in the patootie separating out the zinc ones.

Hey, ladies and gentlemen, the "protectionist" philosophy embedded in the statists' mentalities goes far deeper then those awful HP bullets. They'd ultimately want to ban anything the least bit hairy-a$$ed --or even noisy or smelly.

Or even out of lockstep.

That's what they call "ordered liberty."

Terry, 230RN

onfloat
July 10, 2011, 03:58 AM
scuba weights are still made of lead.

FROGO207
July 10, 2011, 07:14 AM
The government cant stop illegal firearms use/ownership so how are they going to stop one from obtaining a few measly hollow points from the usual sources.:banghead:

ironhead7544
July 10, 2011, 09:37 AM
I remember on President who wanted to ban import of military ammo because it was more deadly than sporting ammo.

41
July 10, 2011, 09:53 AM
In my state (and I would assume the majority of the others) hollow points or other expanding bullets are required to hunt deer and other big game animals, so I don't see them banning them any time soon.

Sam1911
July 10, 2011, 10:14 AM
hollow points or other expanding bullets are required to hunt deer and other big game animals, so I don't see them banning them any time soon.

And even dear old, besotted NJ expressly ALLOWS them for hunting.

bigfatdave
July 10, 2011, 10:22 AM
That triggered the old saw about "a 9 may fail to expand, but a .45 will never shrink."And now I have to point out the vastly different wound tracks demonstrated by expanding and non-expanding ammo.

Sure the .45 doesn't shrink, but it isn't a drillbit. The hole can and does simply close up after it passes through, leaving a more stab-type wound. An expanding round, on the other hand, tears things up on the way through.

Cartridge consisted of 5.0gr of AA#2 with CCISPP. COAL was 1.250". Shot impacted the block at 827 0.500 ft/sec, penetrated 16.0 0.031" of gelatin and through ~10" of polyester-filled bullet arresting box. Projectile was not recovered, but appearance of wound track illustrates that minimal expansion took place.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/45acpswc.html
See pic to note very little "mess" in the track.

Here's another test, with a common and fairly inexpensive duty load in 9x19:
Shot 1 - Impacted at 1215 ft/sec, penetrated to 14.3" and was recovered at 0.502" average diameter.
Shot 2 - Impacted at 1196 ft/sec, penetrated to 14.4" and was recovered at 0.509" average diameter.
Shot 3 - Impacted at 1218 ft/sec, penetrated to 14.3" and was recovered at 0.514" average diameter.
Shot 4 - Impacted at 1216 ft/sec, penetrated to 14.4" and was recovered at 0.494" average diameter.
Shot 5 - Impacted at 1216 ft/sec, penetrated to 14.4" and was recovered at 0.503" average diameter.See pic for "mess" in wound track
http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm%20Luger%20124gr%20+P%20Gold%20Dot%20%28denim%29.html
Oh, and that's after four layers of denim
That happens to be my top choice for 9x19 carry ammo ... testing and the fact that I can get it in 50x boxes at the nearest gun show mean that I have enough to load up every non-antique 9mm magazine in the house (wait, maybe not all the sub2000 magazines) ... OR enough to last for a decade or two if I jealously hoarded them after some nonsense "ban"

hermannr
July 10, 2011, 11:56 AM
There is a new set proposed rules for the Ross Lake National Recreational Area, an area that Congress specifically allowed hunting in when it was created back in the 1968. (I have hunted in it)

By Law, Washington State Dept of Fish and Wildlife are supposed to be the ones controlling the hunting in the RLNRA, but it looks like the Dept of the Interior is going to try impose their will here anyway.

I have a copy of the three "alterative proposals"; all three proposals have a "no lead" restriction on hunting ammo in the RA. I guess there will be a lot of expensive Barnes ammo shot up there following the selection of one of those proposals.

Owen Sparks
July 10, 2011, 01:12 PM
This is not really about lead. It is about gun control As soon as some cheap and reliable substitute for lead comes on the market the focus of federal legislation will shift towards restricting some other aspect or componant of firearms.

Standing Wolf
July 10, 2011, 01:19 PM
How can the government ban one of the 82 basic elements?

With yet another moronic law. It's working for light bulbs, isn't it?

230RN
July 10, 2011, 06:59 PM
Owen Sparks' dicta:

This is not really about lead. It is about gun control As soon as some cheap and reliable substitute for lead comes on the market the focus of federal legislation will shift towards restricting some other aspect or componant of firearms.

Bing-Freakin'-O.

I guess there are some experiments with powdered tungsten (it's pretty dense) sintered with other powders (some metal, some plastic) to establish a sub for lead which would be dense enough for sectional density, but still soft enough to expand. Don't know much about that except for my previous sentence.

Disunirregardless, if such becomes commercially viable (I wonder if there's enough tungsten around to satisfy a bullet market), Owen Sparks's dicta, cited above, will take effect.

[Off-topic Aside]

All in all, I have long felt that the EPA's power, even when delegated to the States, is the greatest impediment to progress and prosperity this country has ever seen. It's certainly a good idea to conserve and use "Good Stewardhip" per the Good Book, but so much "Environmentalism" is like poking a kid's party balloon; you push in here and it comes out there.

And that, too, conforms with Owen Sparks's dicta, cited above.

[/Off-topic Aside]

Terry, 230RN

PS: Due credit must be given to Standing Wolf for pointing out the "control" aspects of so much gun legislation, where he touted it even on the old, now-defunct packing-dot-org website years ago.

Panzercat
July 11, 2011, 01:19 AM
Luckily, my minions are stocking up.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii110/ozzallos/IRL%20Pics/hp2.jpg

Sam1911
July 11, 2011, 07:03 AM
The PRNJ banned HP (and maybe SP). Good grief. NO they DIDN'T.

That's a common misconception and gross overstatement of the facts which we should try to avoid repeating.

Read the information posted above!

mrbro
July 12, 2011, 08:07 PM
Minions?

Honey, can I get some minions too?, Panzercat has some and they're really cool. I'll feed them and ...

wow6599
July 12, 2011, 10:27 PM
Anyone with a drill and the right bit can make a HP bullet...........

ShaneP
July 13, 2011, 01:15 AM
Hollow points actually penerate less than FMJ's. in 124gr 9mm for example FMJ will pass through a 23 inch where as hollow points usually around 13-15" of ballistic gel. Hollow points disapate there energy much faster than FMJ. In my eyes it makes more sense less over peneration with Hollow points and in an urban setting that is good

Apocalypse-Now
July 13, 2011, 04:01 AM
i just heard the internet will be banned by al gore. apparently he's tired of not receiving royalties for his invention.

azmjs
July 13, 2011, 04:08 AM
in a word, "bright"

vaupet
July 13, 2011, 04:19 AM
I don't know of any country in central Europe that allowes HP ammo for use in handguns.
You can own and use them in long guns for hunting purposes. (can't use then for hunting two legged species though :evil:)

Of course you can own some illegally, but if caught, all your "gunrights" will be revoked for "eternity" and al your firearms will be impounded.

SeekHer
July 13, 2011, 05:31 AM
Sam1911 -- All that states is that it's legal for you to possess, in your home, HP ammo, not that your guns can be loaded with it for P/HD purposes.

Same as it's legal in many states to own a switchblade and/or brass knuckles but you can't carry it/them on your person.

They allow them for hunting as it's a more humane way to kill an animal but you mustn't do that to a person--just like the Hague Convention banned Dum-Dum bullets for FMJ so more wounding and less deaths would occur.

There were a couple of test cases that the NRA, RKBA and others went to court over in NJ were they singled out the people because they used HP ammo for HD...Massad Ayoob had an article about it a little while ago--I'll try to find and post it.

How can the government ban one of the 82 basic elements?

The government has banned materials many times--it was illegal to own gold bars--uranium and Cuban cigars still are, asbestos, lead for plumbing and migratory bird hunting--steel shot...California has outright banned ALL lead from certain portions of the state--Condor nesting areas--bullets, fishing weights, jigs heads etc.

Ole Coot
July 13, 2011, 08:46 AM
Find a telephone cable splicer. Still have lead sheaths even if the company say they don't. It's pure lead and I got a couple of tons of it, stopped casting and gave it away to a few friends. This is about par today for the utopia that isn't here. I don't know how I survived all these years depending on myself to stay safe and reasonably healthy without "Big Brother" looking out for me.

jonmerritt
July 13, 2011, 10:13 PM
This just in "The government bans its self" We can only hope.

bushmaster1313
July 13, 2011, 10:21 PM
It's New Joysey.

The saving grace of hollow point ammo is that it is less likely to over penitrate the intended target and hit an innocent bystander. Expanding ammo is also easier to stop with body armour so it poses less risk to the police.


New Jersey's law on hollow point handgun ammo is very strange.

You can:
Buy them at the store,
bring them home,
keep them at your house
take them to the range,
and shoot them at the range.
but everything else is prohibited.

armsmaster270
July 13, 2011, 10:46 PM
To give an idea how strict NJ is on Hollow points, the police can possess and use H.P. ammo and when an officer retires he is advised that he can no longer carry H.P. ammo in his weapon on the street, then he signs a document that he has been advised and is aware of the law.

Taurus 66
July 13, 2011, 10:55 PM
I'm afraid that they (US Gov't or states) will go after lead bullets someday, not just for hunting like CA, but for practice rounds as well.

Don't worry .. we will still have balsa wood to our good after lead is gone (great for HD/PD within 12 inches) - that is until we are properly programmed that the cutting down of trees for the production of balsa wood hurts the environment. It is then those who are programmed will see it their way, yield to their cause, and give up guns.

chriske
July 14, 2011, 06:36 AM
Hollowpoints have been banned over here in Belgium for quite some time now.

Mike1234567
July 14, 2011, 10:14 AM
This is insane. So these moron beurocrats ban HP ammo so, if one is forced to shoot to defend ones self, the bullet has a far greater chance of exiting the perpetrator and harming an innocent bystander?

Deanimator
July 14, 2011, 11:25 AM
This is insane. So these moron beurocrats ban HP ammo so, if one is forced to shoot to defend ones self, the bullet has a far greater chance of exiting the perpetrator and harming an innocent bystander?
To them, the obvious solution is for you to not defend yourself. If you had any value as a human being, you'd have bodyguards...

Mike1234567
July 14, 2011, 01:24 PM
To them, the obvious solution is for you to not defend yourself. If you had any value as a human being, you'd have bodyguards...

Yep and by "value" you, of course, mean "wealth"... enough cash to buy protection like those sissy beurocrats.:D

bigfatdave
July 14, 2011, 01:53 PM
You know, this poster was for the stupid microstamping and ammunition sales record concepts ... but it applies to HP regulation, as well:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-AqMjXIxXpS0/S2kQV5VoeiI/AAAAAAAAAiI/jXBplr6aDAE/s400/ammo_encoding_fail%25255B1%25255D.jpg

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