On Unpopular Shotguns....

[Dave McCracken]

My best guess is that 60-70% of the threads here are concerned with just a handful of shotgun brands and models. The Big Four pumps, the usual semis, and a few newcomers like the Benellis make up the bulk of the shotguns we own. Old family guns and off brands comprise the rest.

The off brands include US made stuff like the gone but not lamented Noble and Springfield pumps, old Stevens autos and pumps, and models from US makers that didn't work out. Imports from the Third World make up the rest.

The Winchester 1400 was a semi auto that had to compete against the 1100 and A-5. Some designing flaws left it with an unearned rep for being trash. It also was an attempt to replace the X-1,which was a superb shotgun but expensive as heck to make. Held up against the X-1, the 1400 didn't look good.

The Ithaca 51 was another Bambi competing against the Godzilla 1100. While not a great auto, it was a decent handling field model that held up OK.

Mossberg's 9200, according to report, was a good design and well made, but it didn't make the cut for military contracts and civilians weren't buying them in droves.

None of these were Legends.All had something amiss,whether it was reliability, looks or that undefinable combination of ergonomics,balance and biases we term "Feel". None of these were total dogs.

Added to those were the House Brands, those Higgins, Ted Williams, etc guns made for the big chain stores.

Shotguns like these are as oft inherited as bought, and serve well as loaners, backups or for toting through the swamps we're scared to take our best guns into.

Some of the Third World imports are decent guns, but a search will have us kissing more ugly frogs than enchanted princes. Old Daleys made in Japan and the even older Prussian guns are quite good, but the track record of newer Turks and so on hasn't been long enough to tell how they hold up. Some other off brands are junk, pure and simple.

Recently, I tried an acquaintance's new Daley auto for a shot. I powdered the clay, the trigger was workable, and it felt like a shotgun ought to. He hunts with it and plans to shoot a bit of clays with it also. IOW, light duty. The fact is, for what he paid he could have looked for a decent used 1100 and paid about the same.He's happy with his, and that counts.

For a first shotgun,one should stick to the name brands and get a repeater. After that, get what you want. Toys and tools have different missions and specs.

If the price was right on an offbrand,say one of the Baikals or a Stoeger, I'd seriously consider it for a CAS gun or just because.I'd be more likely to fork over the shekels on a Savage 311,though.Same money, proven record.

For a new shooter,just getting into this fascinating world,I'd still recommend a Big Four pump or one of the GOOD semis from major makers.

One note. Oft the price difference between a new off brand guns is about the same as a used specimen of a name brand similar model. And often the used gun have as much or more life left in it than the new one.

[TrapperReady]

Ooh, ooh... how about JC Higgins and Western Field bolt guns? Can't forget those.

BTW, the most recent copy of American Rifleman has a review of the Savage (Baikal-made) 411. In it, they conclude:

" And, while plenty of used 311s circulate on the used market, Cowboy Action shooters have discovered it, cutting off the barrels and using them to guard imaginary stagecoaches. Let them have the 311s; two triggers, extractors and fixed chokes. Bird hunters - even those on a budget - want a more technically advanced gun."

Funny... I've been thinking about what I would specify if ordering a SxS for upland hunting. Two triggers, extractors and fixed chokes would fit the bill perfectly. In fact, I'd prefer them over the "more technically advanced" features.

You have to love advertising masquerading as information. Or not.

[Okiecruffler]

" And, while plenty of used 311s circulate on the used market, Cowboy Action shooters have discovered it, cutting off the barrels and using them to guard imaginary stagecoaches. Let them have the 311s; two triggers, extractors and fixed chokes. Bird hunters - even those on a budget - want a more technically advanced gun."

Blasphemy, utter complete unadulterated blasphemy! I say let the CAS's butcher the new 411's and leave those precious old American made guns alone. Excuse me as I step down from my soapbox.

Ands with those bolt guns, we must not forget all of those goofy off brand break action single shots that I'm sure we all have shoved in the back of some forgotten closet. I have a Sears .410, a Western Field 16g, and just took possession of a Stevens 12 that my son took on trade for tuning up a guys engine. These aren't pretty guns, but seem to last for generations.

[Lawyerman]

I have an old Savage 775 auto. It is basically a Browning Auto 5 with a rounded off receiver. A fine, well made old shotgun, good wood, no plastic, shoots where I aim it. I carry it afield now and then. There are a bunch of good old guns out there, some dirt cheap. This Savage was $75 at a garage sale.

I have an old Remington 11 which is off the Browning patent that I bought for $125 with two barrels, again a fine old gun to spend a day shooting with.

A Remington 31 lurks in the gun vault. The thing cycles like liquid ball bearings. Came in a trade, valued it at around $80. Old and unwanted only to the unknowing!

Some of the older guns are just junk though. When I look for something "off brand" or off model. I look at the soundness of the original design. Can't go wrong with an Auto 5 and even the old model 17 Remingtons are proven shell shuckers.

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks for the responses....

TR, house brand B/A shotguns are kind of a stepchild. Some are quite serviceable, most make good slug guns.

Haven't seen that AR article, but the usual flagon of mead says there's a large full color ad for the 411 in that issue. Any takers?

For an upland double, two triggers, extractors and fixed but open chokes sound perfect.

John, rein in thy choler.The 411s will save many a fine 311 from a hacksaw.
Singles don't get good press, but plenty of game hits the table every year because of them. Results count more than opinions.

L-Man, you've let the cat out of the bag. 11s and 31s can still be had for a relatively small sum. 17s have developed a collector market, especially the skeet guns.

[Lawyerman]

I like the 11's personally. They get no respect. Most are well used but there are plenty of parts available for them as they were so widely made. Only thing I dislike is the safety in the trigger guard, I prefer the later Browning crossbolt.

I see them in the pawn shops all the time for between 125-150 depending on condition. Most of the time mine is set up with it's "buck" barrel, a cut down 18" with rifle sights and a mag extension. The old gun dates to 1915. I have had it completely apart and checked it over carefully. Only thing I did was give it a good cleaning and check to see that the friction rings were set for heavy loads, which they were. The stocks could stand a good cleaning/refinish but why bother? Works fine.

My model 17 cost me some money at $150. Again a proven gun. It's in maybe 80% condition, a shooter and a good one.

[P95Carry]

Used to have a Browning 1100 way back, with screw in choke system .... good gun and wish I still had it.

Equally, I wish I had not parted with my Citori Hunter ... so stoopid .. except it was the sale of that that found me my M27-2 5" so - wasn't a total disaster.

OK .. just had to try and replace the Citori, on a budget and so went for the Baikal O/U ... and ya know ... I am now used to this gun and like it ... for my amount of shooting it is just fine ...... recently splashed out on some extra knurled chokes from Colonial Arms .. and so feel about ready to face the season!:)

BTW - it was wicked stiff when new but .. as ever ... useage has freed things up pretty well.

[308win]

Just to prove that brain farts aren't a recent phenomenon, my Uncle offered to sell me either of his 97's - one of which was NIB. I didn't accept his offer because they weren't autos. Ahhh, the foibles of youth!

[Dave McCracken]

308, we all do things when young we regret later. I passed on a couple bamboo rods as a lad because I wanted new fiberglass ones. Having a Wes Jordan South Bend or three more would be nice.

Same with a couple ragged looking 1911A1s for less than $100.

Or a nice, midgrade LC Smith 16 because I didn;t want an old fashioned double?

Chris, anapex's Baikal O/U impressed me. Time will tell if it will hold up.

L-man, a 1915 date means a short chamber. Have a good smith check it.

[standingbear]

what about those h and r single shot shotguns?whatll they weigh?all of maybe 3 pounds?

[Andrew Wyatt]

mine weighs right at 5 pounds with a loaded buttcuff.

[Dave McCracken]

Son's NEF single weighs about 5.5 lbs. Good choice for when the shots are few and the miles many.

But, basically, I was talking about doubles and repeaters. We see lots of posts about some unpopular shotguns, I wanted something in the Archives with off brands and house brands in it to point folks using word search.

[sm]

Dunno model # but as far as repeaters, Mossberg and Marlin bolt actions. Strange , but a lot folks grew up with these.
Me, a bolt belongs on a Win model 70 in '06...not a shotgun...just the way I was raised...see I was raised right. :p

[Okiecruffler]

Here's a link for all of you with what dad always called hardware shotguns. It'll tell you who really made that Montgomery Wards of yours.

http://www.okiegunsmithshop.com/1crossref.html

[Dave McCracken]

sm, the bolt actions do qualify as unpopular.

John, thanks for the link. That'll help lots of folks...

[Lawyerman]

Dave, I had a gunsmith look at the chamber and he said it had already been recut. Said that whoever did it knew his stuff because he not only cut the chamber but had modified the forearm as well??? Anyway, it has been a good shotgun. Wish it was a little newer and had the crossbolt safety but I have learned to live with the one it has.

[jmcc11]

Lawyerman,

Where did you get the mag. extension for the model 11?

Thanks

[Lawyerman]

Found it in a box of "junk" at a gunshow. Guy said it fit an A5, wanted $10 with no spring. I figured if it didn't fit no harm no foul. Found a spring at local gunsmith and it has worked great.

[Norton]

This is right up the alley of my previous post about my Dad's Sears Model 21 .410 pump that was handed down to him from his step-father.

Cool gun, not particularly valuable......but it's the "family shotgun"

[Dave McCracken]

OK, Lawyerman, my reservations are canceled. Dunno about the forearm. SOME A-5 parts fit the 11.

Family shotguns are special, Norton, even unpopular ones. Enjoy, and make sure it's exercized often before passing it to the next generation...

[foghornl]

"family shotgun" in my case is an old Savage/Stevens Model 94B in 16Ga. Has some sort of synthetic stock/forend called "tenite".

Oldest brother has Pop's shotgun (Grandfather on Dad's side). Not shot very often, but still a functional firearm. All of us (me & 2 brothers) have hunted with this shotty at some time in our lives.

[Dave McCracken]

I was talking with a lady at work today. Her husband works PT at a gun shop. He got some family shotguns and she asked me about them. Neither sounds like a shooter, conditions poor. And that's a shame.

Both are SxSs. One's a Remington, I suspect a Model 1899. The other's a LeFevre. In good shape, both would be collectors. As it is, he's got two wallhangers his ancestors used.

foghornl,Tenite was an updated Bakelite, an early plastic. Tends towards cracking in cold weather, IIRC. Again, another unpopular gun.

[foghornl]

Dave:

You are correct on the old Savage/Stevens 94B being an unpopular weapon....

Anytime one of us used it, didn't take too many rounds before we all wanted something else:D

Stiil it is the family "shoots-gun"

My next shotty was a Remington "Sportsman Model" 20 GA...made like the Browning A-5. Took home many a rabbit/squirrel/duck with the "humpback Remmy".

[kotengu]

My father-in-law has an old Noble pump that is his favorite gun, and he swears he's taken more game with it than anything else. I know nothing of the Noble - can anyone fill me in?

[Okiecruffler]

Noble Firearms was in business from 1946 to 1971 out of Haydenville, Mass. My book list several different pumps, none valued at over $200 in exc cond. The only one I've ever handled was a Noble SXS 20ga that I had for about 2 weeks many years ago. Not a bad looking shotgun for the price, but the left barrel only fired about ever other time and I had no idea on how to fix it. Made for one very heavy singleshot. It also had ejectors instead of extractors, and I never did like ejectors.

[wardmclark]

I've got a really cute little H&R Topper in 12 gauge that I picked up at a pawn shop for $35. It's in perfect mechanical condition, bluing isn't bad.

The stock was a mess when I got it, but I went to Midway, got a black fiberglass stock for it. That helped.

I got a buttstock shell holder plate, screwed that to the stock. Cool.

The stock had sling swivel studs, so I got a cheap nylon sling, again from Midway. Neat.

Then I decided that I didn't like the 28" modified choke barrel. To the gunsmith - now it has an 18" cylinder bore barrel. Neater still.

It's a great, lightweight toy to sling alongside my day pack when I'm in the high country scouting for deer, elk and bear; a blue grouse makes a fine high-country lunch.

My friends, however, have accused me of making it to shoot rabbits out of the truck window, and have named it the Ditch Witch. I confess I like the name.

[Dave McCracken]

foghornl, that's not quite what I meant by unpopular. Sounds more like an uncomfortable shotgun(G)...

kotengu, I knew one Noble fan, he swore he could make shots with it he couldn't with other shotguns and kept fixing it when it broke. He probably had the price of a WM in it just for welding the action bar.

Ward,welcome aboard. Toppers are quite common, and I've run across a number of these with major customizing over the years. I call these woods runners, great for toting, bad for kick, and they last forever.

[redneck2]

fits into kind of a dilemma I have right now

I just got (yesterday) a JC Higgins (I believe H&R made it) bolt action in 20 ga full choke. Barrel has lots of surface rust and minor pitting but the action works. Got it for $25. A little oil and 0000 steel wool and a lot of rubbing and it should be looking OK. Clean the bolt and action well and I'll be good to go

Reason I got it was, well, most of my firearms are in extremely good to perfect condition. Wanted a "loaner/beater" in case a newbie wants to hunt and ends up dropping it in the mud or bottom of the lake

Thinking of whacking off the barrel to 18 1/2 and putting on a new bead. Open choke and shorter barrel would fit my needs better (deer mostly)

Anyone done this for slugs and how did it work???

Open to advice

[TrapperReady]

redneck2 - Some of the JC Higgins guns were recalled. I did a search, and you should be able to call 1-800-817-9165 and check to see if yours is on the list. IIRC, the problem involved a failure of the locking lugs and could result in the bolt flying back when fired... so I'd recommend not shooting it until verifying this.

[foghornl]

Dave:

I take it you meant unpopular in terms of not many sold, or discontinued quickly, or were somehow "Funky" and soon got a bad rep.

And your assessment of my old family Savage/Stevens 94B as an uncomfortable shotgun Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

As I sort of vaguely recall, it was not a lot heavier than my Nylon 66 .22LR

One of my hunting buddies was running down the old 16Ga as a "popgun"....Sooooo, I snuck in one of my heaviest #4 Bird loads that I used in the duck blind, and let him try it. after that, he called it a foot-a-more gun....knocks ya back a foot or more when ya shoot. (He owned & operated a Remmy 1100 in 12ga, had never fired a single-shot anything before)

[Dave McCracken]

redneck2, in the floating threads at the top of this forum is one called "The Ugliest Shotgun in Howard County". That's a Mossberg, but you get the idea.

TR, goodlookingout.

foghornl, I used the term for distinguishing those from the Usual Big Four, etc. Been fielding queries off line on a plethora of shotguns, some of whom I know little about.

[sm]

< raises hand>

Nevermind -
I HAD a really good idea for another susbmisson for Unpopular...but I promised Correia I wouldn't ...I really wanted to...I won't...wanna guess? :D :D