Is S&B Brass. well what do you think of it?


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jeeptim
July 10, 2011, 12:02 AM
Had some case seperation today on the first reload on a 303 brit S&B cases.
43gr of H-414 150gr spbt light crimp WLR primer same as all the other cases that did'ent seperate now I have reloaded and shot tons of other brass for this but only the S&B came apart, Have trouble with other calibers of S&B.
Feel free to chime in with your thoughts on S&B

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Steve Koski
July 10, 2011, 01:22 AM
I've never reloaded S&B rifle brass. The pistol brass is fine EXCEPT their primer pockets are tight. They'll reload, but are a little cranky.

Koski

R.W.Dale
July 10, 2011, 01:40 AM
I cull all S&B cases due to nonstandard sized primer pockets. On handgun cartridges they're too tight and in rifle cartridges too shallow


Tapatalk post via IPhone.

FROGO207
July 10, 2011, 05:18 AM
For those rounds that are semi rare 303 BRIT, 7.62X54, etc I will use them and have had no such problems as you describe yet. I do find however that the necks tend to split sooner than with other brass in the same caliber. My guess is that the brass is either a slightly different alloy or they are processed differently and as such are more brittle. Also I have noticed when I size or prime the brass it seems stiffer to work with and primer pockets tighter. S&B makes some of the ammo for other brands and sure enough I find an odd casing in handgun ammo that shows the same properties and it has been reported that S&B make runs of their ammo (Olympic for one).

jmorris
July 10, 2011, 09:22 AM
The pistol brass has tight primer pockets and I have found their 9mm "brass" to simply be plated steel.

EddieNFL
July 10, 2011, 09:50 AM
I cull all S&B cases due to nonstandard sized primer pockets. On handgun cartridges they're too tight and in rifle cartridges too shallow.

Roger that.

Walkalong
July 10, 2011, 09:51 AM
I have not loaded S&B rifle brass either. While their pistol brass does have somewhat tight PP's, I like it. They do make some brass plated stell cases. I use a big magnet to check range brass. I have only found a few of those buggers though. The vast majority of the 9MM S&B I have found has been brass.

capreppy
July 10, 2011, 09:58 AM
9mm go straight to the recycle bin for me. I tried a couple of 9mm and no joy. I have some in 40 S&W but have not tried to load.

armarsh
July 10, 2011, 05:54 PM
I have never reloaded S&B rifle brass. Their 7.62x25 brass is superior to Starline, IMHO.

plmitch
July 10, 2011, 06:09 PM
I have loaded 40 pcs of 7.62x54r 2x with no problems.

Steve C
July 10, 2011, 06:44 PM
I've reloaded lots of S&B 9mm and .45 ACP brass along with a few .38 spl range pick ups. It all reloads well. As mentioned the primer pockets are a bit snug on once fired but only requires a bit more effort than typical US made brass. A quick turn with a Lee primer pocket cleaner seems to expand it very slightly and eases re priming. Subsequent priming of previously reloaded requires only normal effort.

mallc
July 10, 2011, 06:45 PM
Cull it if I see it. Load it if I don't.

Scott

Uniquedot
July 10, 2011, 06:48 PM
I purchased two boxes of S&B 7.62x54 at a local gunshop and the brass was defective in both boxes. They split on the first factory firing. Some of the rounds clearly had visible defects and the remaining rounds were taken apart to salvage the bullets.

cdet69
July 10, 2011, 07:01 PM
I have had a lot of split necks with S&B brass using their 6.5x55 ammo. Sometimes jsut after the first firing. The 303 brass you are using would happen to be in a Enfield? If so the are notorious for eating up poor quality brass. Even good brass does not last in them very long.

zxcvbob
July 10, 2011, 07:05 PM
I have a bunch of S&B .38 Special brass that people gave to me, and a little bit of .357 Mag brass that I bought. I like the stuff but I had to swage all the primer pockets first, as if they were crimped or staked.

animator
July 10, 2011, 10:28 PM
I've loaded quite a bit of S&B .308 brass with no issues. I've been averaging 8-10 loads before I let it go. None have separated, but at around 8-10 firings, are beginning to show the signs of separation. All full-length resized and generally full-power charges.

1SOW
July 10, 2011, 10:41 PM
For 9mm pistol, S&B goes in the trash.
Only "SOME" are brass plated steel, but it's not worth my time and effort to check them.

Waldog
July 11, 2011, 01:59 AM
S&B and Amerc brass = trash can

Walkalong
July 11, 2011, 07:38 AM
Only "SOME" are brass plated steel, but it's not worth my time and effort to check them.I use a large magnet. It only takes a minute. Try it if you are interested in using the S&B 9mm brass.

S&B and Amerc brass = trash can Amerc? Yes, it's junk, but S&B is not, at least when it comes to pistol brass. I have no idea about their rifle brass. Please send all that junk S&B pistol brass my way.

68wj
July 11, 2011, 09:36 AM
I have loaded lots of S&B .223 with good results. However, this is 10yo stuff that came in the light blue boxes. Sounds like things have changed.

rscalzo
July 11, 2011, 10:00 AM
The pistol brass is fine EXCEPT their primer pockets are tight.

I don't chuck it. After one reloading, the pockets seem fine. I will use it at matches where I know the brass cannot be retrieved.

Maj Dad
July 11, 2011, 12:35 PM
Comparison testing brass in SMLEs is probably not the ideal test bed. I get head separations in moderate to full-power loads in once fired Hornady 303 in both of mine. The 1915 No 1 Mk III has a like-new 1942 bbl and the No 4 Mk 1 is a Savage with a like-conditioned bbl. The brass I have found that does best, other things being equal, is Greek HXP. I finally decided that reloading for these 2 rifles just isn't the same as for strong front-lugged bolts, and I do it once in a blue moon. Lead loads are a different story: mild cast boolit loads minimally resized are very friendly to the cases and you can get several loadings even from softer cases (like Hornady). S&B brass may or may not be the equal of some of the mainstream US brass, but I think testing it in a front-lugged bolt action would be a better method. I have some new unfired S&B 8x57 that I have loaded with max loads that do as well as new Rem or Win, and once-fired 38 spl & 45 acp reload fine and I haven't noticed any splits or other failures.

sirk798
July 11, 2011, 12:58 PM
Anyone who trashes s&b brass, Please give me the chance to pay the shipping and send it to me. Oh and I am pleased to find the HR. Been lurking for a little while.

1KPerDay
July 11, 2011, 02:00 PM
I've loaded a bunch in .40, .45 ACP, and .38. The primer pockets are indeed tight but they've all gone in fine for me with few exceptions. Can't speak about their rifle brass yet.

BullfrogKen
July 11, 2011, 02:05 PM
I always thought the pistol brass was a little stiff when I loaded it. Worked much harder than anything else. I've never worked with S&B rifle brass.

denton
July 11, 2011, 02:43 PM
I've used a lot of S&B 7.62x54R brass, with zero problems.

What I've found is that the factory annealing leaves a lot to be desired. Hence the observation that the brass is stiff or brittle. Judicious application of heat and a primer pocket cutter makes it into good brass IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVeRDAsrCfM

Cherokee
July 11, 2011, 03:23 PM
I use their pistol brass, never used any rifle brass.

bigedp51
July 11, 2011, 03:43 PM
1. Commercial SAAMI .303 British cartridge cases are not made to British military standards.
2. The military Enfield chamber was reamed longer to make room for the mud of Flanders in WWI and does NOT match civilian commercial SAAMI standards.

When civilian commercial cartridge cases are fired in a military chamber with longer headspace settings you WILL get case stretching in the base web area.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspacestretch-1.gif

The best surplus military ammunition you will find for reloading is Greek HXP ammunition. The best present day commercial cartridge cases are Prvi Partizan, they have thicker rims, a larger base diameter and thicker case walls.

Under normal conditions you could fire form your cases by seating your bullets long jamming into the rifling or making a false shoulder on the unfired case and headspacing on the shoulder. The problem is the Enfield rifle is long throated and seating your bullets long doesn't work and a false shoulder stresses the neck and can cause cracked necks.

Below is an old trick a Canadian taught me on fire forming cartridge cases for the military Enfield rifle. A rubber o-ring is slipped over the cartridge and pushed against the rim, the o-ring holds the case against the bolt face and the case will not stretch in the base web area when fired.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP5096.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspacestretch_frame_0001.jpg

After fire forming your .303 cases you must neck size only or you will have case head separations, this allows the case to headspace on the shoulder and be held against the bolt face.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/fireformed-zeroheadspace.jpg

Below is a Wilson .303 case gauge and has a case inserted that was fired in a Enfield military chamber. The amount the cartridge is sticking above the gauge is how far the "military" chamber was reamed and lengthened in WWI and how "FAR" you will push the shoulder back if you full length resize your cases.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6321.jpg

When fire forming cases I use .312 pistol bullets with reduced loads, I remove the extractor because the o-ring when compressed will center the case in the chamber and help promote equal case expansion and aid in accuracy.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP4691.jpg

Below and a note on headspace, military headspace is .064 to .074, with an American made cartridge case at maximum military headspace you can have as much as .016-.017 head clearance or "air space" between the bolt face and rear of the case. This is "why" your cases do not last long when reloaded, a Enfield forum member reached over 32 reloadings using the o-ring method of fire forming before he had is first case neck split. (NO case head separations)

With the Enfield below and several bolt heads I have set the headspace from .059 to .084 testing cases and stretching in the web area. It is far simpler to keep your existing bolt head and use the rubber o-ring than trying to find longer bolt heads that might not solve the problem and are getting more costly to find.

O-ring size will depend on headspace and type o-ring, lube your locking lugs to ease bolt closing and lube the o-ring so the o-ring will "crush and flow" and center your cases in the chamber. (American cases have small base diameters and can end up off center when chambered)

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP1355-1.jpg

BullfrogKen
July 11, 2011, 03:48 PM
Wow. Pretty awesome write-up! That's quite informative.

1KPerDay
July 11, 2011, 04:20 PM
Fascinating. Thank you!

bigedp51
July 11, 2011, 05:11 PM
Don't blame the British Enfield rifle for civilian commercial cartridge case standards, even the European CIP the counter part to our American SAAMI list the the .303 cartridge as having "problematic headspace" with depth of rim recess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_L_problem

Below is a factory Winchester cartridge fired in a 1943 Maltby Enfield with a No.3 bolt head with the headspace set at .067 (as tight as it is ever going to be unless I replace the bolt) and this case stretched .009 in the web area and would only last two or three reloadings.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP4521-1.jpg

The problem is the small base diameter of our American .303 cartridge cases and the headspace which allows the case to stretch badly in two directions at once. The second problem is factory ammunition is downloaded to below 43,000 cup or the lower chamber pressure of early .303 ammunition because these older Enfields are still being used. When you load these cases over 43,000 cup they fall apart very quickly.

If you reload your best bet is to use Prvi Partizan cartridge cases because they are built Ford Tough. :rolleyes:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6206.jpg

If you can't find Prvi ammunition then Remington cases would be my second choice BUT proper fire forming will make your cases last much longer.

Don't blame the Enfield rifle or its rear locking lugs, the fault lies with our wimpy commercial cases being fired in a large military chamber. (your parking a VW Beetle in a blimp size hangar) ;)

Springfield0612
July 11, 2011, 09:57 PM
I've had (7) 9mm cases get stuck in my Lee de-priming die because the head stripped off in the shell holder. Also had 1 jam in the crimp die, nothing more fun than clearing a fully loaded round from a crimp die! Needles to say S&B goes to the scap for recycle.

Huckelberry75
July 11, 2011, 10:14 PM
I have loaded lots of S&B .223 with good results. However, this is 10yo stuff that came in the light blue boxes. Sounds like things have changed.
This.

1SOW
July 11, 2011, 11:52 PM
Walkalong:

I use a large magnet. It only takes a minute. Try it if you are interested in using the S&B 9mm brass.


I did the same for a while, but I sort by headstamp and get very little S&B compared to those that I use regularly. S&B might be 1-2% of my range pickups. If I lose my practice range where brass is the ground cover, I'll probably whistle a different tune.

Maj Dad
July 12, 2011, 03:02 PM
BigEd,
That's the best, most comprehensive treatment of the 303 headspace issue I have ever seen, bar none. I am going to take a round to the hardware store & find the correct sized o-ring for the case (fired and unfired). Do you use this only on new cases or once-fired, too? Obviously, it would be best to begin on new cases, but I have a goood supply of Greek HXP & am not really inclined to pull the bullets, etc. I do have a pile of once-fired HXP & it sounds like it couldn't hurt... Have you ever used lead bullets to fire-form? Missouri Bullets sells a 100 gr RNSP sized .313 & designed for the 32 H&R and it looks it would be ideal, both size & cost-wise.

This opens the old soldiers up to a new life from the safe-sitting they do the majority of the time - many thanks for the time and effort, and best regards!
George Jacoby

bigedp51
July 12, 2011, 06:09 PM
You can fire your Greek HXP cases with the rubber o-ring if you like "BUT" I have never found a HXP case that had any stretching in the base web area and I can measure this very accurately.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP5204.jpg

I think the Greeks mixed Kryptonite with their brass, I ordered 500 once fired HXP cases and checked each one in three places. Not one case had any stretching in the web area, and these cases had been fired in Vickers and Lewis machine guns.

Below a once fired Prvi Partizan .303 case next to a Greek HXP case, the point here is the Prvi case is built heavy duty and the HXP case is made from thinner super grade brass and flexes but doesn't stretch.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/privihxp.jpg

Steve H
July 12, 2011, 06:12 PM
I've reloaded S&B .45 ACP several times with out any problems at all.

P5 Guy
July 12, 2011, 06:26 PM
I always get a bright ring around the bottom of my brand new first time fired S&B 303 BRITISH. I think part of the problem is the chamber is at the high end of the chamber spec. But, I don't get the ring with R-P, WIN, and mil/surp ammo.
I won't be reloading this S&B caliber.
Other than tight primer pockets I have had no troubles with pistol calibers and 8mm Mauser brass.

Cosmoline
July 12, 2011, 06:28 PM
I do find however that the necks tend to split sooner than with other brass in the same caliber.

Ditto here. I use them for working up loads, but not for the final product.

Twmaster
August 21, 2011, 04:13 AM
My experience with S&B brass has been good. I reload a lot of 9MM and 7.62x25 brass. Every S&B case I've used has been just fine. No problems with primer pockets etc.

I'll take all the 7.62x25 S&B brass any of you want to get rid of.

Steve C
August 21, 2011, 03:40 PM
I've shot several cases of S&B 9mm ammo over the years and have reloaded the cases. As others have said the primer pocket is a bit tight but I've found that using my Lee primer pocket cleaner on them makes the re-priming effort normal. The little bit of work to the sides of the pocket when turning the pocket cleaner expands the pocket that micro amount needed for easy insertion of the new primer. .45 acp cases get the same treatment with the same results.

S&B did market some steel cases in the last couple years but their typical brass pistol case reloads loads well.

Dutch Mosin
August 24, 2011, 02:13 PM
Hello all,

I'm new to this forum, but not to reloading.
I've been using S&B brass for my Mosin Nagant M91/30 and M91/30 PU for a couple of years without experiencing any problems.
I've reloaded the same brass 20 times.
You are right about the tight primer pockets.
"Standard" primer pockets and primers have a diameter of 5.5mm.
S&B primer pockets have a diameter of 5.33mm.
That is why I use S&B primers for my S&B brass and Federal primers for my Lapua and Prvi brass.

I also agree with Denton.
What I've found is that the factory annealing leaves a lot to be desired. Hence the observation that the brass is stiff or brittle. Judicious application of heat and a primer pocket cutter makes it into good brass IMO.
I apply heat by putting the brass in the oven and heat it up to 250 degrees Celsius.
Works for me.

I have to add that I necksize only and use reduced loads for both the M91/30and the M91/30 PU.

My 0.02

Met vriendelijke groet,

Martin

jeeptim
August 24, 2011, 10:23 PM
Started this post a while ago and forgot to mention the S&B .308 is a fight to get in the shell holder I have 5 or 6 308 shell holders same story with all I mean it goes in and out with a lil cussing just not worth it.
Never loaded S&B pistol.

Hondo 60
August 25, 2011, 12:25 AM
I bought 200 unsorted 45acp cases.
About 40 of them were S&B.
I reloaded them tonite & the pockets are VERY tight.

armarsh
August 26, 2011, 10:33 AM
Hello all,

...I apply heat by putting the brass in the oven and heat it up to 250 degrees Celsius.
Works for me. ...



This suggestion is dangerous. Annealing the entire case will soften the head, which lowers it's ability to withstand pressure.

250 C (482 F) is right at the lower threshold of temperatures that will anneal.

Hondo 60
August 26, 2011, 09:52 PM
As others have said, the primer pockets are tight on the pistol brass.
I just reloaded a box of 45 acp & there were a few where I really had to give it some umph to seat the primer.

But I didn't see any reason to cull 'em.

jeepmor
August 27, 2011, 03:51 AM
oops

Dutch Mosin
August 27, 2011, 05:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch Mosin
Hello all,

...I apply heat by putting the brass in the oven and heat it up to 250 degrees Celsius.
Works for me. ...


This suggestion is dangerous. Annealing the entire case will soften the head, which lowers it's ability to withstand pressure.

250 C (482 F) is right at the lower threshold of temperatures that will anneal.

@ ARMARSH,

Thank you very much for your reply and for the warning.
I appreciate it, but this is not a suggestion for others.
It's the way I've been treating my brass for over 15 years.
I have experienced no problems at all so far.
No cracks in the neck, no separations, nothing.
I use it only for cartridges with a reduced load.
If you or anyone else thinks that this is dangerous then please don't do it.

Again, thanks for the warning, I really appreciate it, but it works for me.

Met vriendelijke groet,

Martin

FirinFlatTop
August 27, 2011, 04:29 PM
I will use them as what I call whatever rounds, out junk shooting in the wood or along the river banks, where losing my brass is known to happen. I have never had any problems loading them, and if I find any of the brass I load them again.


RC

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