Berry's bullets suitable for breaking in a new bore?


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Uniquedot
July 10, 2011, 09:16 PM
Folks are Berry's bullets suitable for breaking in a new bore to get it ready for cast? I have never used plated bullets for this task and i was thinking of ordering a thousand jacketed bullets to break in a new bore and i thought if plated bullets would work i would give them a try. I am not talking about a rough bore mind you...just a new bore. Before someone suggest it i will go ahead and say that i do know about polishing the bore and have done it in the past, but i would rather be shooting.

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armoredman
July 10, 2011, 09:40 PM
I have never "broken in" a rifle bore, but I cannot imagine a Berrys bullet wouldn't be up to it. Load in the middle/lower half of the jacketed data, and it will work fine - excellent products.

Walkalong
July 10, 2011, 09:48 PM
I am with armoredman, I do not see why not.

Jim Watson
July 10, 2011, 09:57 PM
What caliber?
Badger recommends like 10 rounds break-in with jacketed bullets, from 30 to as many as 80-100 with cast.
http://badgerdefense.com/closed/procedure.pdf

I guess plated would work but you sure don't need a thousand.

Internet expertise to the contrary, I broke in two aftermarket barrels shoot and clean in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations. That worked out to 13 shots with one and 33 with the other.

Uniquedot
July 10, 2011, 10:46 PM
I guess plated would work but you sure don't need a thousand.

I guess i could have worded that a bit different. I didn't actually mean i was going to run the thousand for the break in process. It's 9mm and it's economical to order them by the thousand.

bds
July 10, 2011, 10:51 PM
When I bought my M&P45 last year, I shot several hundred rounds of factory jacketed ammo (230 gr RN PMC/CCI Blazer Brass) to burnish the barrel (I know, it probably wasn't necessary as it came coated like Glock barrels and I don't burnish Glock barrels).

Guess what?

While PMC was true jacketed bullet with exposed lead base, CCI Blazer Brass was plated bullet. :eek:

It's now shooting lead bullets just fine.

GLOOB
July 11, 2011, 03:28 AM
First time I shot cast, I had relatively bad leading in 3 different handguns. That was after shooting over a thousand plated bullets. So I don't think they helped to "break in" the bore for cast bullets.

OTOH, after the initial session, subsequent sessions with cast produced very little to no leading.

So I think the proper way to break in a bore for cast bullets is to shoot cast bullets.

ArchAngelCD
July 11, 2011, 03:39 AM
I have read that barrel break in procedure is a marketing ploy to make you shoot a bunch of ammo through your barrel to shorten the time when you will order a new barrel. A barrel, especially a bench rest barrel has a limited lifespan and shooting a few hundred rounds through it before you start shooting it "for real" will shorten it's lifespan and for no good reason! IMHO of course.

cfullgraf
July 11, 2011, 09:58 AM
With new handguns, I shoot what I am going to shoot. Barrel "break-in" happens along the way.

With rifles, I follow some of the mumbo jumbo on barrel "break in" such as some extra cleaning, not over heating the barrel and so forth. But I am doing other things like sighting in the sights, checking groups and velocities, etc. to get the most value from the ammunition. I don't just blindly send bullets down range in the name of breaking in the barrel. By following a "break in" procedure, it slows my shooting down for a bit.

I do clean a new barrel from the breach pushing debris towards the muzzle if possible and never bring a patch back from the muzzle to the breach. It may not have benefits, but makes me feel good and seems to make sense. I don't always continue this as the barrel ages.

I agree with ArchAngle, much of the break in stuff is a ploy to wear out the barrel faster.

Jim Watson
July 11, 2011, 10:53 AM
It is hard to see how I was losing much barrel life when, to quote a usually reliable source (Me!) "I broke in two aftermarket barrels shoot and clean in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations. That worked out to 13 shots with one and 33 with the other."
By the time I had gone through those, the rifles were zeroed at 100 yards and I had chronograph readings so I could determine come-ups for longer ranges. That was shooting that I would have done any way. There was NO waste of service life and I won't be replacing the barrel any sooner than if I had not gone through the break-in ritual for that first set of trials.

I never gave a thought to breaking in a pistol barrel.

Walkalong
July 11, 2011, 11:44 AM
Yep, or fire forming brass, but either way, shots aren't wasted.

cfullgraf
July 11, 2011, 01:48 PM
That worked out to 13 shots with one and 33 with the other.


Agreed, that is a reasonable number of shots for a recommended break in and other things can be done with the break in rounds.

I have seen procedures that use in excessive of 100 rounds. They go something like...

Shoot one round and clean. Repeat 10 times.

Then shoot two or three rounds and clean. Repeat 5 times.

Then shoot five rounds and clean. Repeat 5 times.

And so forth.

Generally, i have seen these procedures associated with custom rifle barrel makers.

I'm not that patient.

rcmodel
July 11, 2011, 02:04 PM
A good lapping with JB Bore paste will do far more good then shooting some jacketed bullets through a new bore.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1160/Product/J_B_reg__NON_EMBEDDING_BORE_CLEANING_COMPOUND
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=4124/pid=1161/Product/2_oz__J_B_Bore_Bright?utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_source=googlebase&mc_id=10000&gdftrk=gdfV21820_a_7c187_a_7c745_a_7c083065100_d_083065100_d_10167

If the bore is rough to start with, it will just pick up copper fouling, which you then have to remove.

JB Bore paste will polish & smooth all those microscopic burrs in the first place so you can go straight to lead bullets.

rc

longdayjake
July 11, 2011, 02:31 PM
Just curious but what are you getting the berry's bullets for $$$$?

MrOldLude
July 11, 2011, 02:45 PM
Just curious but what are you getting the berry's bullets for $$$$?
Right now, the best price about anywhere on the web for Berry's is at Powder Valley. That takes into account shipping and state taxes (since PV and I are both in KS). So for me, ordering from PV is still cheaper than a few other resellers, or buying direct from Berry's for free shipping and no tax.

x_wrench
July 12, 2011, 07:29 AM
i think they are pretty soft for the job you want them to do. especially if you want to do it in less than 50 or so. they use striaght soft lead, with a soft copper plating. depending on how rough your bore is, it may be a better choice to either fire lap or shoot solid copper bullets from a break in point of veiw.

PO2Hammer
July 12, 2011, 12:54 PM
Is the JB Bore paste a mild abrasive?

bigedp51
July 12, 2011, 02:35 PM
Watch the video below and then realize why barrel break-in on a commercial barrel is a total waste of time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf9zZqn00CA

Do you really think a bore brush and bore solvent will wear down the ridges below on a new button rifled barrel?

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/990900081.jpg

rcmodel
July 12, 2011, 03:06 PM
Is the JB Bore paste a mild abrasive? Yes, but so are jacketed bullets.

JB Bore Paste is slightly more abrasive then say, bore cleaner on a cotton patch.
Bench rest shooters use it regularly though.

JB Bore Shine is so mild it would almost qualify as non-abrasive at all.

rc

longdayjake
July 13, 2011, 03:14 PM
Watch the video below and then realize why barrel break-in on a commercial barrel is a total waste of time.



It's not the brush that would be wearing down the grooves. Its the bullets. The point is to keep it clean so that the bullets can work more quickly on smoothin them out.

bigedp51
July 13, 2011, 04:17 PM
longdayjake
It's not the brush that would be wearing down the grooves. Its the bullets. The point is to keep it clean so that the bullets can work more quickly on smoothin them out.

If a standard bullet jacket is made of soft copper zinc alloy and a bore brush is made of copper zinc alloy how is the soft bullet going to wear down hard steel.

At 43,000 cup the peak flame temperature is just starting to reach the melting point of modern barrel steels. If you notice for "barrel break in" many of the instructions recommend using a faster burning double base powder to increase the peak flame temp.

A bullet doesn't break in a barrel but hot gasses can cause barrel erosion. ;)

Uniquedot
July 13, 2011, 07:44 PM
If a standard bullet jacket is made of soft copper zinc alloy and a bore brush is made of copper zinc alloy how is the soft bullet going to wear down hard steel.

At 43,000 cup the peak flame temperature is just starting to reach the melting point of modern barrel steels. If you notice for "barrel break in" many of the instructions recommend using a faster burning double base powder to increase the peak flame temp.

A bullet doesn't break in a barrel but hot gasses can cause barrel erosion.

There were tests done in the late 1800's that determined soft patch materials (cotton and thin oiled leather) would wear a barrel out in short order if used for target shooting where many shots were expected from a high quality target barrel. Copper jacketed bullets and friction from pressing them into the grooves and shoving them out the barrel at high speeds definitely wears on a barrel. Gas cutting is generally around or just past the forcing cone is it not?

Clark
July 14, 2011, 12:29 PM
I believe in breaking in a baseball glove.
I think some rifle barrels may have a break in period and some don't.
I am not ready to accept the concept of breaking in a 9mm handgun barrel.

ColtPythonElite
July 14, 2011, 12:34 PM
Best post yet^^^....I agree 100%.

bigedp51
July 14, 2011, 12:49 PM
There were tests done in the late 1800's that determined soft patch materials (cotton and thin oiled leather) would wear a barrel out in short order if used for target shooting where many shots were expected from a high quality target barrel. Copper jacketed bullets and friction from pressing them into the grooves and shoving them out the barrel at high speeds definitely wears on a barrel. Gas cutting is generally around or just past the forcing cone is it not?

I would like to think the steels used in todays barrels are superior to what was used in black powder rifles of the 1800s.

The grit use in J&B bore paste is softer than steel but harder than copper, and that is why it is used to remove copper and carbon.

The grit used on bullets to fire lap barrels is "harder" than steel and is used to smooth the bore.

Below is a photo of a factory barrel, what is a copper bore brush going to do to a bore like this other than be eaten when you "try" to break in your barrel. On a factory barrel you are better off using a foam bore cleaner and remember that more barrels are damaged by cleaning than any other reason.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/roughbore.jpg

Below is a custom hand lapped barrel and the type barrel that "some" makers recommend a break-in period.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/custombore.jpg

Below is a very good read on barrel break-in (it is not necessary)
http://www.6mmbr.com/gailmcmbreakin.html

Uniquedot
July 14, 2011, 01:16 PM
I am not ready to accept the concept of breaking in a 9mm handgun barrel.

For .45 acp i might agree, but have you ever cast for a 9mm handgun?

I would like to think the steels used in todays barrels are superior to what was used in black powder rifles of the 1800s.

Of course they are as the old barrels were much softer, but not as soft as linen or oiled supple leather which wore them out. I think a barrel maker would agree that copper and friction do cause wear on barrel steels.

nofishbob
July 14, 2011, 06:02 PM
Please keep in mind that it is impossible for a softer material, like brass or copper, to wear a harder material, like a steel barrel.

If there is, in fact, wear on a steel barrel with these soft bullets and cleaning brushes, it is from contaminants and grit carried along with the softer metals.

Pure copper or copper alloys will not wear steel, not at all, not even a little bit.

Bob

Uniquedot
July 14, 2011, 08:36 PM
Please keep in mind that it is impossible for a softer material, like brass or copper, to wear a harder material, like a steel barrel.

Please keep in mind that when friction is added that the softer material will indeed wear a harder material. Just think about the bolsters on your pocket knife, which is harder the bolsters and blades or the lining of your pocket? I think the brass, nickel, and steel is harder, but yet with daily carry your pockets eventually wear the bolsters down and the backs of the blades.

Wouldn't you agree that the average stone is much harder than steel? Do you think water is much harder than steel or a stone? I think not yet a stone in a river, creek or great ocean is polished and worn smooth from friction of running water. Take a hand towel and wrap it tightly around a steel bar and move it back and forth building up friction and the towels will wear out many times before the steel, but eventually the steel will wear through.

Bottom line is________ A softer material will wear out a harder material with a little help from friction. This is how a STEEL barrel is worn out from COPPER jacketed bullets.

nofishbob
July 14, 2011, 09:53 PM
Respectfully, Uniquedot, you are confusing the action of dirt and grit being carried by a soft substrate with the action of the substrate itself.

Perfectly clean water will not erode rock by wearing it. Water carrying small pebbles, sand and particulate will erode rock.by wear from the solid matter it is carrying, and water may slowly dissolve minerals in the rock due to chemical reactions.

Clear water is not abrasive. Think of a fish tank power filter...water runs though the soft plastic for years with zero wear...the plastic is not even polished.

The cotton of your pocket, on a microscopic level, contains contaminants that make it an extremely fine abrasive cloth. ( I am not insulting the cleanliness of your pockets!)

The most common definition of what relative hardness of a material is talks about the ability of one material to scratch another. Lots of scratches eventually make wear. If a material is softer than another, it cannot scratch it, hence, no wear.



Bob

bds
July 14, 2011, 09:55 PM
Hmmmm ... I thought rifle barrels wore from hard carbon residue from powder combustion and not from copper jacketing.


As to pistols with surface hardened barrels like Glock and M&P, I don't worry too much about barrel wear from copper jacketing (I believe the hardness from the surface hardening treatment is like on par with tungsten carbide).


As to OP, since more factory pistol jacketed ammunition is going copper plated, you may not even know which bullets are plated vs jacketed unless you pull the rounds apart. My guess would be using Berry's plated bullets to break in a pistol barrel would be fine. If you have hardened/treated/coated barrels like Glock and M&P, I would not even worry about "breaking-in or burnishing" these barrels). I clean my barrels after each range session, so I don't worry about wear from fouling.

As to using Berry's rifle bullets to break in a rifle barrel, not sure. Perhaps Jay from Berry's Manufacturing can comment about that.

Uniquedot
July 14, 2011, 10:40 PM
Respectfully, Uniquedot, you are confusing the action of dirt and grit being carried by a soft substrate with the action of the substrate itself.

Perfectly clean water will not erode rock by wearing it. Water carrying small pebbles, sand and particulate will erode rock.by wear from the solid matter it is carrying, and water may slowly dissolve minerals in the rock due to chemical reactions.

Clear water is not abrasive. Think of a fish tank power filter...water runs though the soft plastic for years with zero wear...the plastic is not even polished.

The cotton of your pocket, on a microscopic level, contains contaminants that make it an extremely fine abrasive cloth. ( I am not insulting the cleanliness of your pockets!)

The most common definition of what relative hardness of a material is talks about the ability of one material to scratch another. Lots of scratches eventually make wear. If a material is softer than another, it cannot scratch it, hence, no wear.



Bob

Your explanations do makes sense, but could you explain to me how a cotton buffing wheel with no abrasives added will still polish (wear) a knife blade when friction is created between the two?

nofishbob
July 14, 2011, 11:50 PM
I am sorry, Uniquedot, but I don't have an explanation for that!

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