Scout M1A for hunting/SHTF?


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Lictalon
January 19, 2004, 01:04 PM
I've been debating an M1A in Scout for awhile now, possibly as a hunting rifle and SHTF-type weapon. I have an AR now that I plan on tweaking out for my wife (basically turning it into a light-weight carbine small enough for her to use well) and don't really want to duplicate weapons. OTOH, ARs seem to dominate the field...

Is there any reason that a Scout M1A, with some sort of forward mounted red-dot scope would NOT be suitable for hunting? I can justify the purchase of a $1600+ rifle a bit better to my wife if I can actually get some real-world use out of it. I know it's probably not ideal, but why would I NOT want to hunt with it?

And, in the same vein, why would I NOT want one for a SHTF rifle? Better yet, why would I want one instead of a second light-weight AR?

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Highland Ranger
January 19, 2004, 08:04 PM
Looking for a Garand myself, same reasons - I'll add another question: anyone make them new other than Springfield?

Dave R
January 19, 2004, 08:12 PM
The only downside I can see is weight. I don't know how much it weighs, and some AR's are over 8lbs, but some AR's are under 6. And if you have to carry it far, that's important.

Other than that, all virtues. Reliable, powerful, accurate, good capacity--that's a lot of Good Things.

Andrew Wyatt
January 19, 2004, 09:05 PM
I'd have no qualms about using it for hunting, though i'd put a leupold scout scope on it.

geekWithA.45
January 19, 2004, 09:32 PM
I don't see any reason it wouldn't be useful for hunting, unless local regulations forbid semi auto, as in PA's game laws.

BTW, don't pay 1600 for one. Mine was 1250ish @ a gunshow.

artherd
January 19, 2004, 09:58 PM
Special Forces snipers in Iraq are using EOtech (holographic red-dot) equiped M14s to rapidly acquire and take out the enemy at 300 yds or so. Zeroed at 200-250, the .308 is essentially 'point blank' to 300. In it's Designated Marksman role, it is a great compliment weapon to the .223 rifles in the rest of a squad IMO. (note, I am not in the military, I just talk like it on the internet.)

It would make a fine hunting rifle, the only downside is the weight, and the action can chew your hand if you don't know what you're doing (make sure that only YOU fire this thing! :)

The Springfield M1a (ins't quite an M14, but very close clone.) weighs as much BARE as my Remington 7400 in .30-06 weighs with a huge scope, bipod, loaded mag, and carry bag.

Lictalon
January 19, 2004, 10:47 PM
Artherd,

Thanks for the awesome info...the sight looks awesome, quite a bit closer to what I was looking at than the Trijicons I looked up earlier. I've never been hunting before, so I have no idea if it would be suitable...I've also no particular urge. It's just one of those things I think every male oughta know how to do.

Any thoughts on drawbacks to the M1A/M14 design? I've heard some complaints about the charging handle...what about the 16inch barrel I've seen advertised in my American Rifleman. Any reason why not?

Thanks again!

ojibweindian
January 19, 2004, 10:59 PM
A loss of velocity and increased muzzle blast are the two reasons against a 16" barrel that first come to my mind. Not too big a deal, for the most part, unless you're gonna try to hit things waaaaaay out there.

Sven
January 20, 2004, 12:29 AM
You could phase this project - iron sights are also just fine.... some competitors use them on the M1A out to 1000 Yards (National Champships) - of course, they aren't shooting Scouts.

theCZ
January 20, 2004, 01:45 AM
Just do what I do, have an el-cheapo sks, the plan being that if the SHTF as everyone supposes, I have a gun that I can use to shoot somebody else and get their expensive SHTF gun. :D I've found at the range that I can hit a man sized target easily at 300 yards standing or kneeling. Of course if it all went to heck I would set up with my .270 long range, and have my sks and 9mm handy for close up stuff. Also, living on a ranch makes it easy to make perfect hiding places, storage areas, etc.

artherd
January 20, 2004, 01:51 AM
Lictalon- the M14/M1a's charging handle is very large, and operates when the weapon cycles.

In short, it's a huge moving piece of metal that moves with enough speed to cut you up if you get near it (which you normally shouldn't, but can more easially on an M14 than with other guns...) Make any sense?

I recomend you handle one before you buy. It's a good weapon, but not what I personally would consider great.

theCZ
January 20, 2004, 02:08 AM
Maybe it's just me, but I don't quite understand the Scout rifle concept. I need a thorough explanation of why a scout rifle setup is better than a rifle with good irons or regular relief scopes.

hube1236
January 20, 2004, 06:43 AM
The scout concept is shavinga few inches off the barrell to facilitate rapid deployment from a rack. An 18" barrel also has a better swing feel to is and is more apt to fit through a door.

A good alternative from the dot is the 2x scout scope. It has gobs of relief and sits up front on the hand guard. It's too cool, enough of a magnification for your eyes to both be open but differential between the two, low mag enough to take out close up targets.

CZ, the scout does come with pretty bitch' iron sights also. We hear the rumors of 5.56 losing their lethality when fired out of a SBR after 50-75 yards as the terminal velocity is lost and it icepicks. The barrel reduction is to break into a shorter barrel market- not everyone takes 1000 yard shots with their SKS's and still provide enough knockdown.

Dots are just well, cool. But a 50 yard shot group with a 4 MOA dot is no where near as tight as irons on an AR, but it's easier to put two to the chest and one to the head with a dot at 25 and closer.

Nando Aqui
January 20, 2004, 08:16 AM
If anyone wonders about weight - - according to SA's website:
M1A Scout Rifle = 9 lb with fiberglass, 9.3 lb with walnut (40-1/3" long)
M1A Bush Rifle = 8.75 lb (40-1/2" long)

Would like to read more comments? Visit www.battlerifles.com

target4fun
January 22, 2004, 03:35 AM
First off i own a scout m1a here's a pic if you wanna check it out :

http://www.evoteam.net/storage/Irish%20ranger%20/SA1.jpg

This rifle can be effective out to about 600 yards maybe more in the right hands you lose 178 fps in velocity from the 22 inch barrel to the 18 inch barrel isnt much but will start makeing a difference at about 600 yards and beyond

Another thing you see a bit of muzzle flash and its quite loud! but this can easly be solved with a flash hidder instead of the standard muzzle break

As for the op rod hitting your or hurting you ... never had it happen and its up on top of the rifle if your a left hand shooter this rifle isnt for you other wise there is no problem at all shooting it!!! nothing to hit you you put your face on right side of the rifle and hand on trigger other hand on handguard .... doing this normal shooting style its not possible for you to get hit by the op rod... its exactly like the m1 witch i own 2 of never had a prob with any op rod hitting me there either. That being said the rifle is wonderful. its 9 lbs not much not bad

As for the socom the 16 inch barrel..
For me it would be to short at that point your loseing even more velocity and its louder and more muzzle flash i dont cutting another 2 inches off the 18 would make it that much lighter or hander considering the neagative effects

you can learn more about m1a's or scouts on www.battlerifles.com

Skunkabilly
January 22, 2004, 11:10 AM
If you get an M1A, run it and get all the bugs worked out. Took me about 2 years to get mine running to where I could sell it off with a clear conscience.

Highland Ranger
January 22, 2004, 12:18 PM
If you get an M1A, run it and get all the bugs worked out. Took me about 2 years to get mine running to where I could sell it off with a clear conscience.

So you're saying if I get a brand new M1 Garand from Springfield, it will not be a reliable weapon out of the box?

Requirement is a semi-auto rifle in a popular caliber that I could use for hunting (outside the Northeast where its shotgun only) or HD . . . . . I thought the M1a was legendary for toughness and reliability, hence the reason I picked it. Plus I think almost everything else is illegal in NJ (need to research that, going to an M1 seminar at the local range in March)

However, if they aren't reliable out of the box, I have better things to do with $1200 . . . .

dave3006
January 22, 2004, 12:52 PM
Skunk had an M1A. The Garand is different.

I would like to buy an M1A. Except, the last thing I want is a problem gun that costs $1300. My guess is that I have a 50/50 chance of getting a lemon from SA. I also think they are overpriced by about $500 for what you get.

Buy a M1 Garand from Orion, Garand guy, Fulton, or DGR. You will spend $900 total and it will work. The Garand is better than the M1A in many ways.

1. You can go prone easier.
2. You can load it faster.
3. En bloc clips are easier to carry.
4. En block clips cost $0.50
5. You can have a bayonet lug.
6. All mil spec parts.
7. It is a piece of history.
8. It shoots a real round, not that wimpy .308 varmit round.

- just kidding on #8.

pwrtool45
January 22, 2004, 01:28 PM
My Winchester Garand sat in a closet for several decades before I took possession of it. I figure it was in my uncle's closet from right at the end of WWII until last year when he passed on. I took it to the range, opened the bolt, checked the bore (to make sure there weren't any critters living in there), stuffed an 8-round en-bloc clip in it and started having fun. Shot less than 50 rounds that day (out of the Garand), but it didn't miss a beat. Not bad, by my guesstimate, for not having been given any maintenance in 60 years or so.

For those who are wondering, yes, afterwards I did finally give it a long overdue cleaning. Took it to (one of?) the guys who do test firing for CMP down at Shooter's HQ (ah, the joys of hailing from Anniston) and got a 101 in dissassembly and maintenance for the US .30 M1.

Anecdotal, I know, but most people I know with real Garands report similar level of reliability. It's also worth mentioning that for the price of a "new" SA Garand, you can get a CMP Garand and a new match-grade barrel isntalled from Fulton Armory. I have no experience with the "new" SA's, but lots of people have reported satisfactory performance from them. Still, sheer pragmatics makes the CMP/Fulton route much more attractive.

jrod014
April 30, 2009, 09:05 PM
I would go with an M1A (http://www.m1arifles.com). I have the scout and am able to hit targets out to 600 yards easy.

Ned Kelly
April 30, 2009, 09:19 PM
Don't you loose accuracy by mounting sights on handgaurd rail systems due to a small amount of play?

lipadj46
April 30, 2009, 09:48 PM
My guess is that I have a 50/50 chance of getting a lemon from SA.

Now that is amusing I doubt SAI got to where they are today by selling garbage. The M1A is a fairly simple rifle and even a simple person can get one running very reliable. Most reliability issues come from bad mags. My SAI loaded is a very reliable rifle.

flying_gage
April 30, 2009, 09:53 PM
Hmmm... Not sure if this will help?

I just picked my m1a scout up today at the gunshop. Did I pay a bit too much? Maybe but I feel like I got a fair deal. It wasn't near the $2k that I see them going for on gunbroker. But they did make a profit that I was willing to pay to "keep the lights on" as the like to say. I am okay with that.

I have zero experience with SA. I was torn between a Garand as that is what my Dad taught me to shoot on, and the M1A platform. I settled on the M1A as I wanted something of my own. Not my Dad's experiences. Hope that makes sense.

I read alot of articles and there is alot of good to say about the rifle and the company and some bad. That will always be the case in my estimation. Guys I know, who have alot of rounds downrange, definitely influenced me as they all thought the rifle was very good out of the box. In addition, some of you on this board added to my decision as alot seem very happy with their M1A's.

My buddy is a Marine and he has a Garand that he shoots out to a thousand yards and can consistently "hit black with" it at that distance. I asked him to help me dial the rifle in. I think I will be in good hands with him. I guess only time will tell.

When I have enough rounds through it, I hope that I can find the time to put a constructive and honest report on here so as to help out like some of you have helped me.

H2O MAN
April 30, 2009, 10:29 PM
You have the AR and now it's time to get an M14. My only M1A was a
Scout and it's a fine SHTF/hunting rifle... I know own a few MK14 EBRs.
Get yourself the Scout an Aimpoint, plenty of mags and ammo.

amprecon
April 30, 2009, 11:35 PM
I really do like the idea of the M1A Scout Rifle and believe this would be THE ONE if I had to make a choice. But as I'm already invested in a Garand, SLR-95 and M1A Standard it'd be foolish to change it up.
I installed a 6X42 Nikon on the M1A, an Aimpoint CompC3 2X 1moa on the Garand and an Aimpoint CompC3 2moa on the SLR-95, so there is a bit of an overlap, but I also have the option of installing either Aimpoint on the M1A.
When you attach a good mount I believe the M1A does become a much more versatile and effective rifle, be it for hunting at longer ranges (6X Nikon), intermediate ranges, low light conditions and even with moving targets (CompC3 2X 1moa), or up close in the brush for still or moving targets (CompC3 2moa).
But I think the best combo would be the M1A Scout with an Aimpoint CompC3 2X 1moa.
BTW I was convinced on the red dots after a hunting situation in low light turned what could've been a successful hunt with a red dot, into an unsuccessful hunt using the irons.
I've looked at the EoTechs and I did not prefer the busy circle/dot reticle, awkward light adjustment buttons and relatively short battery life.

LoneStarWings
May 1, 2009, 01:35 AM
I have an M1A scout and really like it. I have a Burris 2-7x pistol scope mounted on it and am pleased with it.

I haven't shot it any further than 300 yards but can hit 12" targets at that distance with decent ammo and iron sights pretty easily, under 1 MOA with match ammo at 100 yards. I have not hunted with it, but plan to use it next time I go deer hunting. I don't see why it wouldn't work great in that role, except that it's loud as hell and will scare the crap out of any animals in a 1 mile radius. I don't think it's that heavy either with the new non-USGI springfield stocks, 8lbs-ish without mag and scope I think.

Very reliable too, I have about 500 rounds through it with one failure to fire due to a faulty primer. I don't clean it excessively, just every 150 rounds or so. Good iron sights, good with the pistol scope, it's the only rifle I own and I feel like it can do just about anything I'd ever need a rifle to do.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/LoneStarWings/M1A.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/LoneStarWings/1hole.jpg

dscottw88
May 1, 2009, 01:41 AM
Looking for a Garand myself, same reasons - I'll add another question: anyone make them new other than Springfield?

Doesn't fulton armory make them? or at least provide parts?

LoneStarWings
May 1, 2009, 01:58 AM
Aside from springfield:

LRB arms http://www.lrbarms.com/
Fulton Armory http://www.fulton-armory.com/
Norinco http://www.norinco.com

The first two are about double the cost of a springfield with a 9 month or so wait, the norincos seem to run about $1000 but I'm not even sure if they're still made.

parabolate
May 1, 2009, 03:21 AM
For those of you looking for a garand just get one from the CMP. You can't beat their deals on surplus military rifles: http://www.thecmp.org/

You can get a field grade rifle for $495.00 or a service grade rifle for $595.00. See their site for descriptions on the amount of wear on the different grades. If surgical new-barrel accuracy is a MUST you can get a special grade for $995 with a new barrel.......keep in mind even the "lowest quality" field grades are probably gonna stay in the black at a ~200 yards at least......

H2O MAN
May 1, 2009, 07:46 AM
Springfield Armory, Inc. makes the M1A.

LRB makes a few different versions of the M14 on their M14SA and M25 receivers

Smith Enterprise, Inc. builds what you want on the receiver that you supply and the new SEI receiver will be available soon.


Norinco and Poly Tech M14s have not been imported into the states for many years.
SEI has built me four custom M14s on Norinco and Poly Tech receivers that I provided.

I don't think Fulton has any receivers to build on...

lipadj46
May 1, 2009, 09:08 AM
Doesn't fulton armory make them? or at least provide parts?

Fulton does not make Garands or M14's anymore. SAI and LRB are the only ones manufacturing M14 clones for the US market. I hear SEI is working on another run of billet machined receivers so that will give us another option (probably pricey though).

HexHead
May 1, 2009, 11:12 AM
If surgical new-barrel accuracy is a MUST you can get a special grade for $995 with a new barrel.

That's the way to go if you want an "almost new" Garand. New barrel and stock, all GI parts and the original forged receiver instead of a cast one like the SA ones.

Garands are really fun rifles. Mine's a 3/1945 Springfield, rebarreled in 1953. I may get one of those special grade ones.

Gunfighter123
May 1, 2009, 12:32 PM
Hello,
As to why you should get a M1A instead of another AR15 --- it's all about the POWER !!!

Most states will not allow a .223 for deer/big game ---- yes, even a .22rf will kill a deer size animal but the .22 centerfires are lacking in doing so.

As far as a SHTF weapon --- again , it's the POWER of a .308 over a .223. ---- if you need to shoot thru a car door or thru cover like a refridgerator , the .308 is heads above the .223.

I have owned about six S.A. M1As and ALL OF THEM have been near 99.9% reliable out of the box.

Like others have stated --- iron sights and a decent rest = 200 yard head shots all day long even with the Scout/Socom.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b199/Jailbird123/DSC00871.jpg

As to optics , a Red-Dot type is great for closer range FAST shots -- most of them are 1X and have no magnafication --- also the Dot size can be a issue -- a BIG Dot , might take up 1/2 the chest area at 200 yards and cover the whole target at 300 yards+ --- a regular scope with crosshair is better for longer range IMHO. ---- you can get red dots with smaller/adj. dots and some of them do have magnafication BUT they are not cheap.

I would think about a scout/pistol type variable scope , say around 2x5x , with a lighted recticial{sp?} would be best.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
May 1, 2009, 12:41 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I don't quite understand the Scout rifle concept. I need a thorough explanation of why a scout rifle setup is better than a rifle with good irons or regular relief scopes.

Well, the forward-mounted EER optic (with backup irons), is but ONE facet of the scout rifle concept, and certainly not the MOST important facet of the concept.

But having said that, the idea is that with the forward-mounted optic, its slightly easier to (with both eyes open) track the target/game with the left eye while trying to acquire the target through the scope with the right eye (reverse if you're a lefty), than with a traditionally-mounted scope. I don't know if this is true, but think that it probably is.

But just plain ol' acquisition of a stationary target IN the scope is not claimed to be, nor actually is, any faster than with a traditionally mounted optic. If anything it may be a little slower.

Ned Kelly
May 1, 2009, 01:17 PM
I know I already asked the question once in this thread and hopefully experienced M1a, m14 shooters can answer it.

How much of a loss in accuracy can you expect by having a heat shield mounted sight? I understand there is usually a small amount of movement in the heat shield fit and also with the barrel/ gas tube facing that the stock and heat shield rest against.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
May 1, 2009, 01:26 PM
Love that wood PG stock, gunfighter.

If you don't already have a second mortgage taken out, so that you can do so to mount optics on the rifle, then by all means, yes, it will work well for hunting, though a bit on the heavy side. :p

lipadj46
May 1, 2009, 01:27 PM
The scout mounts are clamped to the barrel and it is fairly stable. Stable enough for the accuracy expected from the scout platform.

Gunfighter123
May 1, 2009, 01:38 PM
Love that wood PG stock, gunfighter.


Thanks Dr. T ------ it started out as a Beretta BM-59 stock I had laying around for a bunch of years -- I guess I should take/post some photos of it now that I finished it -- the photo posted was a mid-project photo.

Ned Kelly
May 1, 2009, 02:34 PM
The scout mounts are clamped to the barrel and it is fairly stable. Stable enough for the accuracy expected from the scout platform.


It appears that some of the ones I have looked at seem to have a bracket that screws to the top of the rifle stock and then the rail itself screws into the top of the bracket.

I guess there are different setups. Attaching to the barrel itself would have to be the most stable though.

H2O MAN
May 1, 2009, 03:10 PM
Quote:
The scout mounts are clamped to the barrel and it is fairly stable. Stable enough for the accuracy expected from the scout platform.

Ned Kelly

It appears that some of the ones I have looked at seem to have a bracket that screws
to the top of the rifle stock and then the rail itself screws into the top of the bracket.

Ned, there are a few different approaches when it comes to mounting an optic out in front of the receiver.

The OP is talking about the M1A Scout Squad, this rifle uses the mount pictured below.
It is clamped tightly around the govt. contour barrel with six screws.
It is not prone to movement, but it does quickly transfer barrel heat to the optic.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/store/images/full/M1A_acc/ma5056lg.jpg

By comparison, the UltiMAK rail for the M14 (http://www.ultimak.com/m8.htm) replaces the standard hand guard, sits lower
and it's held in place by two or three smaller clamps for strength and better heat dissipation.
It sits low enough to allow you to co-witness the irons through an Aimpoint Micro-1 red dot.

Jason_G
May 1, 2009, 06:40 PM
I didn't read all of these posts, but to the OP:

I hunt with my M1A Loaded with iron sights, and it does just fine. I don't see why a Scout with a red dot wouldn't be a solid choice for the woods.

Some folks will tell you it's too heavy, but if you use a hasty sling it is not bad at all. I held mine up for a good 40 seconds waiting on a doe to move from behind a tree last season, and I could've held it another 40 if I had needed to. I love mine.

Jason

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