[Jack T.]

Last night, the lovely Mrs. Jack T and I were discussing my impending purchase of two new (used) Smiths (629 Classic, 624) and she brought up an interesting question that I couldn't even begin to answer. . .So she suggested I ask ya'll.

What is the oldest commonly available cartridge? I mean, if I go down to the local gun/sporting/outdoors/hunting store and look over their ammo, which ammo has been around the longest? I had some ideas such as .32-20 or .44-40, but she didn't want to count those because they were not commonly available. . .

[Balog]

.22. I believe the .22 short was the first cartridge ever introduced.

[tc300mag1]

45/70 45colt? 38 sp was alate 1800's cartridge i believe

[4v50 Gary]

I'd say it's 22 LR. Then going up the scale it's the 38 Special. For rifles, how about the 30-30 (more popular than the 45-70 methinks).

[Mal H]

I agree with Balog. I've heard the oldest integral case/bullet is the .22 rimfire, now called the Short. Came out before the Civil War, IIRC.

[Erik]

45-70

[dfariswheel]

The earliest would be:
The .22 Short...late 1850's early 1860's
The .45 Colt...1872
The shotgun shell...late 1860's
The 45/70...late 1860's.

The 32/20 and the 44/40 were both mid-1870's.

The .38 Special and the 30/30 were both mid to late 1890's.

[Jack T.]

Man, you guys are good. . .I never would have thought of the 22 Short. My wife actually suggested the 45 Colt, but I didn't think it was that old. Ooops.

[foghornl]

If going by "commonly available" as in "most stores/shops will have it", I would say probably the .22 rimfire, .30-30 and .38Spl.

Just from my travels in some out-of-the-way places, those 3 seem to be on more shelves than other ammo. And usually a few boxes of 12Ga shotty fodder, too.

[Gunhamr]

The 44/40 was used in the War Betwwen The States, 1861-1865
but in rimfire version, not the centerfire as we know it. Was used
in the Spencer and Henry lever actions.

[WilderBill]

.22 short, patented by S&W in 1854.
There were very few cartridges as we know them before that and none of them are anywhere remotely near common today.

[Jim March]

The only reason more cartridges from the 1860s - 1890ish period did NOT survive is that they were either rimfires bigger than .22 cal, heeled bullets or both (44 Henry Rimfire fr'instance).

(The .22Short/.22LR are the last "heeled bullets" where the bullet proper is as fat as the outside diameter of the shell and the bullet has a "protrusion" back into the case. These are "outside lubricated" which is another way of saying "not lubed real well". By backing the bullet into the shell you can protect the lube, allowing way more lube. This is also why "38" bullets are actually .357 or so - an older "38" caliber in the 38Special's ancestry was heeled so that the bullet and barrel was the same bore as the shell, very close to true 38. When they shrank the bullet diameter and backed it into the shell, they dropped to closer to .36Cal but the marketing wonks didn't want to admit it :D. The same sequence happened with the .44 - very early ones were heeled, they went non-heeled starting with the Russian, dropped the actual bore to .429 where the Special then Magnum then 445Supermag picked it up.)

The rounds that survive from that 1860s - 1890ish era all basically started out as the modern non-heeled type (45LC, 45-70/90/100/120 series, etc) or were adapted that way during that period.

[Nightcrawler]

I don't think there's any direct lineage between .44 Henry Rimfire and .44-40 Winchester. I think the .44-40 round was developed around 1873, in the (gasp!) model 1873 Winchester lever rifle. I don't know what cartridges the older 1866 rifles were available in.

I'd say the oldest commonly available cartridges are .45-70 and .45 Colt. I mean, I've seen a lot more .45 Colt than I have .22 Short, as .22LR (a newer cartridge) has all but replaced both .22 Short and .22 Long. You can get .44-40, .32-20, .38-55, .38 Long Colt, etc., but these (for the most part) have only been really re-introduced due to the popularity of cowboy action shooting. I'm sure before CAS took off you'd have a heck of a time finding a box of .32-20 anyplace.

[Mike Irwin]

The .22 Short.

Patented in 1857, by Smith & Wesson.

The next few developments were all rimfires, and pretty much are no longer available except when someone has a special run of .32 Short rimfires made.

The .22 Long Rifle is a relative oldster, having been introduced in 1887.

The .45 Long Colt was 1873, as was the .44-40 and the .45-70.

The .30-30 was introduced in 1895.

The .38 Special was, depending on the source, anywhere from 1899 to 1902. I'm sticking with the 1899 date, as I've seen S&W Model of 1899 revolvers in .38 Spl. that have had serial numbers putting them as being made prior to 1902.


Gunhamr, the .44 Henry Flat rimfire, the round used in the Civil War, was considerably different from the .44-40. The Henry round had a straight case, the .44-40 is slightly bottlenecked. The .44-40s case is considerably longer, and held nearly double the amount of powder, making it MUCH more powerful than the .44 Henry.

Spencer cartridges bear even less relation to the .44-40 or the .44 Henry Flat.

[Mal H]

If .22 Shorts are available at Wal-Mart, which they are, then I have to conclude it is commonly available. I buy a brick of them every so often there. Great for short range squirrel control using a long barrel rifle - a natural silencer, actually quieter than my air rifle.

[bfoster]

The 22 BB Cap in a form similar to the ammunition made today by RWS was produced as early as 1845 by Flobert in France.

This is a short case length (~6mm) cartridge unlike the BB caps available from CCI.

Availability? I don't know in general, but the hardware in town used to carry RWS BB Caps until they were forced out of business by the chain stores about a year back.

Bob

[berto]

All this talk of the .38sp.....didn't the .38 S@W predate the special by decades?:confused:

[Kamicosmos]

didn't the .38 S@W predate the special by decades

yes, but we're looking for commonly available old cartridges.

I have never seen .38 S&W outside of collector shows.

[berto]

THey are still commoly available where I live,I have an Enfield revolver that shoots 'em.The shops I frequent sell the 145gr RNL load.:)

[STW]

I've seen replicas of advertising for the .22 short from its introduction. It was touted as a defensive round.:scrutiny:

[Mike Irwin]

"yes, but we're looking for commonly available old cartridges.

I have never seen .38 S&W outside of collector shows."

I see it in most of the gunshops I'm in in Northern Virginia and Pennsylvania.

As for date of introduction, around 1878.


"The 22 BB Cap in a form similar to the ammunition made today by RWS was produced as early as 1845 by Flobert in France."

Very true, but I've never seen it outside of an occasional box of RWS at a gunshow.

[Chipperman]

Somewhat of a tangent:

What is the oldest Military Cartridge still in use?
I think it is 7.62x54R.

Any older than that still in use?

[Preacherman]

Oldest military rifle cartridge would have to be the .45-70. Oldest military handgun cartridge would be the .45 Colt, I think.

[Triad]

Preacherman, I think he meant the oldest still used by a military. I think .22LR would qualify for oldest in military service.

[Nightcrawler]

I guess some militaries use .22LR for training rifles. I don't think ours does.

The oldest CENTERFIRE catridge in service is the 7.62x54mmR. It's been in constant service since 1891, and will remain in service for the forseeable future.

[Iron Mike]

Is the 303 Enfield or the 30/06 still used by any military and if so have they been around longer than the 7.62x54 Russian?
You just answered my question niightcrawler Thanks

[Mike Irwin]

Some nations are still using the .303 British for some military applications, and it's got the 7.62x54R by about 3 years.

The .22 LR wasn't developed as a military round.

[BluesBear]

The 1845 Folbert Parlor Rifle fired a cartridge called the Bulleted Breech Cap. Nowadays it is called the BB Cap.

The 1845 BB Cap was a .22 cal lead ball in a tapered percussion cap. There was no powder charge. (Can you say Colibri?)

A version with an actual rim like we know today evolved much later.


The .22 Short was the original cartridge for the S&W Model 1. It has been in continuous production since 1857!

It was three years later that the .44 Henry arrived. The .44 Henry was not even close to the .44WCF (.44-40)

The .44 S&W Russian cartridge came to be in 1870 but for many, many years was not commercially loaded.

[Mike Irwin]

Iron Mike,

The .30-06 dates to 1906. It's earliest iteration, a very short-lived experimental cartridge, hit the ground in 1901.

The 7.62x54R dates from around 1890-91; the .303 British from about 1888.

[only1asterisk]

The 9mm is over 100 years old. 1901-02 if I remember right. It may not be the oldest round still in military use, but I think it will outlast the .303 and 7.62x54.


David

[Mike Irwin]

9mm = 1904

.45 ACP = 1905

[Paul "Fitz" Jones]

One of my kids owns an Ace hardware and two manage some also. The most popular calibers are 22 rimfire, 30-30, 30-06, 38 special and 45acp. Those are the calibers used by the locals where the deer are abundant. They get a big laugh when the big city boys come, burn up their new fad magnum ammo missing the deer then cry when they can't find any more without going back home. The calibers mentioned can be found anywhere.

John Paul

[only1asterisk]

Mike,

Are you talking entered service dates? I guess if we are going to talk military cartridges that should be the standard. I was almost sure the Luger was around a couple of years prior to entering service with the Germans.


David

[Mike Irwin]

Entered service date or date of first prototype using a particular cartridge is probably the best yardstick to use. Most cartridges go through a development & R&D cycle that can be very very hard to pin down.

[Cosmoline]

According to Chuck Hawks,

The 7.62x54R was developed in 1891, but it doesn't hold the honor of the oldest currently used military service cartridge.

The 7.5x55 dates back to 1883 in a black powder form, and was then made smokeless in 1889, so it's the oldest

This is nothing short of astonishing, considering that the 7.5x55 is a very "modern" cartridge, functioning like a .308 improved.

[only1asterisk]

Cosmoline,

I'd say the 7.5x55 walks a thin line. Increasing, the bullet diameter by .010" might result in being a new cartridge. I would certainly not try to interchange them! On the other hand the 30 Borchardt (1892) is almost identical to the 7.63 Mauser, which is almost the same as 7.62 Tokarev! ;)

Seriously, I do think at least a couple of resources list the two 7.5x55 seperately, like the 30-03 and 30-06.

David

[Balog]

Which country still uses the 7.5x55?

P.S. Cosmoline, did you get my PM?

[Mike Irwin]

Hum...

Probably the Swiss. I suspect it's still used in machine guns and possibly as the main arm for the second line soldiers.

I never even gave the 7.5x55 a thought.

Asterisk, was the bullet size on the 7.5x55 changed? I didn't think it had been. When?

[only1asterisk]

You guys are giving me a mental workout this morning! If I remember right, the original cartridge used a .298 bullet. I THINK the switch came with the 1911 rifle, but I could be wrong on this one. It was the same time the dropped the roundnose bullet. Hornady used to make a .300" bullet that people used to reload them with. It's about 5 hours past my bedtime and I still have to go home. If nobody knows for sure, I'll try to verify and post tonight at work.

I think the Swiss use the 7.5x55 in a sniper rifle, I seem to remember...

...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Mike Irwin]

I'll pull my references this evening and see what they say.

I know that they did make some sort of change, as the 1889 rifles had to be modified to 1889/11 standards, but I'm just not sure what the change was.

[BigG]

Oh yeah like the Swiss fought a war any time in recent memory? :neener:

[Mike Irwin]

Maybe that's why they've used the 7.5x55 for so long...

It's been VERY effective...

[BluesBear]

The 1889 version used a 213gr .299" bullet. That was changed to a 174gr .308" bullet in 1911.

[BigG]

Heck, if you want to go sort of the same, why not the 8mm Mauser? It dates back to the German Commission Rifle of 1888, don't it? It also changed bore diameter from .318 to .323 at one point. Even though it is obsolete, I would think there are a lot more mausers around and in use than 7.5 Swiss?

BTW, Mike, the reason there are no elephants in the USA is because of my elephant repellent spray. It must work because there are no elephants here. :neener:

[Nightcrawler]

I believe the 1888 Commission Mauser was in the 11mm (.43 Mauser) cartridge. I might be wrong on that, though.

[Mike Irwin]

Not to mention that the case on the 1889 version used a case that was 2 millimeters SHORTER than the 1911 version.

Sorry, but the 7.5x55 Schmidt-Rubin doesn't qualify. If the Swiss were still using the 7.5x53, then yes, I'd say it qualifies.

Different case, different bullet, different chamber = NOT the same cartridge.

It looks like it's still down to whether or not it's the .303 British or the 7.62x54R.

The 1888 Commission Mauser was chambered for the 7.92x57 Mauser cartridge, but used the .318 bullet, not the 1905 version with the .323 bullet.

Because of that, I'd have to disqualify the 7.92 Mauser.


As for elephants, there's a herd of elephants very near to where I live, so your spray isn't working. :)

On a similarly light note, for some time I told people that I drink Gin & Tonics in the summer to ward off malaria, and that it must work really well because there's no malaria anywhere in the Washington, DC, metro area.

Then, two summers ago, two teenagers in the county next to mine were diagnosed with malaria...

So much for the wide-net medicinal aspects. Now I just drink G&Ts because I like them....

[only1asterisk]

Thanks Mike!
As usual, I was a little fuzzy on the details. Is the 8x57 still in military service anywhere (other than ceremonial duty)? I know that it pops up in Bosnia and Iraq and other hot spots, but is it still issue with anyone?


David

[Mike Irwin]

As far as I know, no, it's not in standard service with any military.

[BigG]

OK, if we exclude furrin military rifle cartridges and stick to domestic product I would say whoever called out the .45 Colt, .44 WCF (44/40), and .45/70 would be the winna. They all date to 1873 or a bit before. Yeah, the .22 short is older but who actually shoots those? Crap, every time I see em they are priced HIGHER than the LRs. :eek: :rolleyes: Not much demand, I guess.

[BluesBear]

The original question was "What is the oldest commonly available cartridge?"

.22short wins by over 10 years.

As I recall there are a lot of .22short Olympic style pistols all around the world. I'd bet that there are more .22shorts consumed world wide than there are .45 Colt, .44/40), and .45/70.

I know I still shoot several thousand a year because they're FUN.

.22 short in a NAA .22mag mini revolver using the .22lr conversion cylinder is FUN!

.22short out of my Marlin 39A is FUN!
AND I can cram 25 of them in there!

[TallPine]

I lost interest in 22 shorts when I saw the price :eek:

[Cosmoline]

It looks like it's still down to whether or not it's the .303 British or the 7.62x54R.

Well with a date of 1888 the .303 British edges out the Ruskie, but who is still using the .303?

[Mike Irwin]

I'm not 100% certain, but I THINK that the .303 may still be in second-line service with some African nations.

I know Kenya arms some of its game preservation people with Lee Enfields, but I don't know if they're an arm of the military or not.