DOJ gives new tools to ATF on guns - "Border states" to report assault weapons sales


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BullfrogKen
July 12, 2011, 10:29 AM
So, does this mean that the dealers still have to report the sale if the BATFE ordered them to sell the rifles to the drug cartel members? Or do they just have to report the ones the ATF didn't instruct them to sell?


:rolleyes:


http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/170823-doj-gives-new-tools-to-atf-to-fight-guns

By Mike Lillis - 07/11/11 08:22 PM ET
The Obama administration on Monday granted new powers to federal regulators fighting gun traffickers on the violence-plagued Mexican border.

Issued by the Department of Justice (DOJ), the new rules require border-state gun dealers to report bulk purchases of assault weapons made by individual buyers over short spans of time — a tool requested in December by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).

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CoRoMo
July 12, 2011, 10:49 AM
This is what we won, our spoils, in regards to the whole Gun Walker scandal.



Yippee.

Mike1234567
July 12, 2011, 10:52 AM
All this stuff is related to the same gun control conspiracy.

BHP FAN
July 12, 2011, 10:54 AM
it's not over, yet.

Old Fuff
July 12, 2011, 12:34 PM
This is really going to stop the drug cartels from obtaining guns, because buying them from local retailers is the only source they have. Absolutely none of them will think of making purchases through straw buyers from dealers outside the border areas. :rolleyes:

And if they do, they haven't got any way to transport them from the place of purchase to the border... :scrutiny:

And since 100% of these evil guns come from U.S. retailers, they won't be able to get any more...

I feel so much better - just warm and fuzzy all over. :banghead:

Yo Mama
July 12, 2011, 12:44 PM
I'm actually surprised King Obama didn't go further. Seems like they just came out and made clear what they are already doing. A few members here have had a visit from the Feds after purchasing multiple rifles.

I love that .22s are out, no one ever uses them in a crime anyway right?

I'm warm and fuzzy that it's only the border states....criminals would never go north now would they?!

Ole Coot
July 12, 2011, 09:27 PM
This isn't a simple caught with their pants down job. I am positive as the 2 gun limit on border states suggests to me that drawing attention to firearms period will turn around on us in spite of their mistakes. The nuts are the loudest and the squeaky wheel gets the grease, rather more restrictions on gun owners. This will misdirect people from the blunder right back to guns and the need to abolish them. With Mexico involved the administration will, in my opinion attempt to go along with the proposed worldwide ban on small arms proposed by the UN ,or rather on us. Their objective is very clear, another England, Australia or Germany in the mid 30s.

Shadow 7D
July 12, 2011, 09:40 PM
This is the same thing that's been shot down repeatedly congress, And I do believe that presidential orders only go so far as the ARE NOT challenged. I hope the NRA will torpedo this one so it goes back to congress where it can be kicked around like the usual token 'gun control' legislation.

Sides that, I thought that it wasn't cool for the Feds to only apply laws to one part of the country and not the rest.

Danb1215
July 12, 2011, 10:24 PM
So does this exempt ARs? Or are they actually claiming those aren't 22 caliber?

Ky Larry
July 12, 2011, 11:03 PM
I beleive this is the administration trying to draw attention away from the Gun Walker investigation. I'd better shut up before I get banned for being too "politcal.":rolleyes:

bushmaster1313
July 12, 2011, 11:20 PM
You guys are really over-reacting.

New Jersey's strict gun laws have stopped all violent crime.

Same in New York City, California, D.C. and Chicago.

Apocalypse-Now
July 13, 2011, 04:56 AM
a new law to cover for the feds not doing their jobs-yet again. Obozo needs to go in 2012!

ZCORR Jay
July 13, 2011, 08:30 AM
This is just a way to divert attention from the massive screw up. Somehow they'll say this could have prevented the Fast & Furious Gun from going missing and everyone will feel better about it and forget that the principle behind the whole scheme was horrible to begin with.

Smoke and mirrors.

Redneck with a 40
July 13, 2011, 12:07 PM
Pretty pointless to me, its so easy to get around it. Just buy one rifle, wait 6 days and buy another. This idiotic measure won't do anything. Its a felony for someone with a known criminal record to attempt a purchase at a gun store anyway. It'd be nice if they would enforce that law.

Shear_stress
July 13, 2011, 04:48 PM
Does anyone else see the irony in tracking multiple "assault weapons" purchases in California, where the buying of new (or even used) high capacity magazines and centerfire rifles that have both pistol grips and can take detachable magazines has been banned for the last eleven years?

Another reason that the idea of an "iron river" of American guns going to Mexico is hogwash.

jonmerritt
July 13, 2011, 11:10 PM
It was just defunded!

Yo Mama
July 14, 2011, 01:07 PM
What was defunded?

phantom soldier
July 15, 2011, 01:40 AM
I don't think gun runner was a massive screw up. I think it was a calculated, pre-planned action to demonize gun owners. It ended up as murder and treason. What are we up to now? 2 or 3 dead border patrol agents? Not to mention all the Mexicans the cartels have killed.

The outcry from gun owners alone should be shutting down congressional switch boards.

Bubbles
July 15, 2011, 10:00 AM
I don't think gun runner was a massive screw up. I think it was a calculated, pre-planned action to demonize gun owners.

Ya think? :scrutiny:

http://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab40/katiepavlich/Screenshot2011-07-13at114656AM.png
Mark Chait - Assistant Director in Charge of Field Operations
William McMahon - Deputy Assistant Director for Field Operations
William D. Newell - Special Agent In Charge Phoenix Field Division

Sky
August 3, 2011, 10:02 PM
Two guns in 5 days or bulk ammo purchase gets a suspicious activities report and a possible visit from Ice, BATF, and Boarder Patrol. Used to not be requested but now we have to supply our phone number when a weapon is picked up from the FFL. I guess I will find out soon; I ordered two shotguns online at the same time for a $50 discount .....

TexasBill
August 3, 2011, 11:00 PM
Have the House Republicans introduced any legislation to prohibit this? They have known this was coming and they could have headed it off at the pass. All they have to do is pass legislation forbidding the use of federal funds on enforcement.

danprkr
August 3, 2011, 11:06 PM
Have the House Republicans introduced any legislation to prohibit this? They have known this was coming and they could have headed it off at the pass. All they have to do is pass legislation forbidding the use of federal funds on enforcement.

Heck, it was my understanding that the house had to pass a law to allow this, and if the DOJ or ATF just orders it then it's illegal, and there should be a law suit immediately. Or am I wrong?

medalguy
August 3, 2011, 11:11 PM
They can get away with whatever they can get away with.

JERRY
August 3, 2011, 11:28 PM
since the ATF is not a border state, do they still have to report when they sell guns to mexican crimnals too?

oh wait......never mind, it doesnt apply to them.

Sky
August 4, 2011, 12:48 AM
Their actions actually put a chill on gun purchases. If not a chill it makes you think; wow I bought two guns so now I am on the "Suspicious activity list" and who knows what else..hahahaha some people probably have rather large collection and it would be interesting watching the interview and interactions between the agents and the lawful owner of said weapons..ATF raided a house today and found 4 weapons will be the headline; or worse.....maybe it's all about nothing..choke, cough, and wish. It is a shame that so much trust has been lost and eroded by the actions of a few.

MikeNice
August 4, 2011, 12:55 AM
The house passed something to stop funding for this initiative. I don't know if it passed the senate.

lonegunman
August 4, 2011, 01:00 AM
There is no reason to expect Barry O. or any of his minions to follow the rule of law or behave in an above board manner. Read the Huffington Post diatribe on "operation gunrunner", they have ATF minions saying they had to resort to this behavior because American gun laws are so law it is impossible to get a conviction,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,especially in Arizona where people are radical right.

dogtown tom
August 4, 2011, 01:32 AM
Sky Two guns in 5 days or bulk ammo purchase gets a suspicious activities report and a possible visit from Ice, BATF, and Boarder Patrol.
Nope.
No such Federal requirement (or Texas requirement for a "suspicious activities report"......you can buy a hundred guns and no report is required unless the purchase involves "two or more semi-automatic rifles larger than .22 caliber (including .223/5.56 caliber) with the ability to accept a detachable magazine."

You can buy one handgun, one AR15, five shotguns, two AR lower receivers and 5,000 rounds of ammunition for each on the same day.............no law or ATF regulation requires any of that to be reported.



Used to not be requested but now we have to supply our phone number when a weapon is picked up from the FFL....
No requirement by ATF, FBI NICS or the State of Texas to give the dealer your phone number.

Sounds to me like your FFL is inventing his own regulations.

Shadow 7D
August 4, 2011, 01:50 AM
Anybody else get the J&G newsletter, they are suing over this, I guess they didn't like they being drug in to the gun walker scandal.

I personally liked the one where the had to point out that THEY had never sold (knowingly) a rifle with a Tracking device in it...
I must stop now before I digress.

publius
August 4, 2011, 08:31 AM
NRA and Shooting Sports Foundation are suing over this rule.

NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/04/us/04guns.html)

Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/08/03/guns-groups-to-sue-over-new-obama-regulations-doj-vows-to-vigorously-oppose/#ixzz1U15Rnn7O)

The Times notes something I had not heard before: that the multiple handgun reporting rule was in place before Congress passed a law authorizing it in 1986. For fans of politics, that would be during the Reagan administration.

I found it interesting to see the different ways that the two news outlets commented on the related Fast and Furious scandal, in which ATF was receiving lots of multiple sales reports from cooperating dealers...

NY Times:

In that operation, federal agents monitored straw buyers who bought about 2,000 guns, but did not intervene to arrest them or seize the weapons because they were trying to identify higher-ups in the network. But the bureau then lost track of many of the guns, some of which were smuggled into Mexico and two of which later turned up at the scene of a shootout in Arizona where an American Border Patrol agent was killed.

Uh, yeah, "lost track" is one way of putting it, I suppose. Not particularly accurate, but a way.

Fox News:

The operation's plan was to follow American purchases suspected of buying guns bound for to Mexican cartels in hopes they would lead investigators to the heads of the enterprises. But hundreds of high-powered rifles and other guns ended up in Mexico, and self-described whistleblowers now accuse ATF of letting the guns "walk" to Mexico even after safety concerns were raised. Weapons linked to the program were used in a December attack along the Southwest Border that killed U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.


Yeah, I think "letting guns walk" is a better way of describing what happened. For those who have not read it, here is what Agent Dodson says they actually did:

http://www.tropicalboating.com/imagestr/dodsontestimony.gif

Supervisors ordered them to keep the straw purchaser under surveillance while allowing the guns to walk in the hands of the unknown third party, says Agent Dodson.

ATF lost track of some of the guns, says the New York Times. Pretty much the same thing, I guess.

stevelyn
August 4, 2011, 10:38 AM
The waffen BATFEces creates the contrived crisis so they can offer the contrived solution.

Sky
August 4, 2011, 11:35 AM
Dogtown I really hope you are right....one of the FFLs got a visit by 5 guys from BATF, ICE, and Boarder Patrol and the bulk ammo and 2 gun thing is what he understood them to say. There is also a letter they gave him, which I have not seen, and do not know if he will even let me see it but I plan on asking him. Every region seems to have it's own way of doing things and it is not the first time this region has gone the extra mile on interpretation of some directive. The FFLs I know are good guys just trying to do as directed and stay out of domestic entanglements.

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