Full auto AR .22LR cost to build?


PDA






mopar92
July 13, 2011, 11:47 AM
I really want a full auto .22lr. However, pre 86 trigger packs are $10K! What would my options be and how do you " piece" it together as far as legally building this on an AR platform?

If you enjoyed reading about "Full auto AR .22LR cost to build?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Rail Driver
July 13, 2011, 12:06 PM
Your only real options are a trigger pack/registered receiver or a lightning link (which I don't think works with a .22LR upper anyway) as far as I know. I could be wrong, but in my experience any full auto AR/M16 is going to be top dollar. I use an SSAR-15 stock on my semi auto AR and it simulates full auto fire quite effectively, but doesn't work at all with .22LR due to the lack of recoil. You might be able to use a drop in auto sear too, but again... high cost of ownership due to artificial control over the supply (ie: NFA laws and the ATF)

Sam1911
July 13, 2011, 12:14 PM
The frustrating thing is that regardless of what cartridge you want your M-16 to fire, you'll need either a registered "transferable" M-16 receiver or a registered "transferrable" Drop-In Auto Sear (or "Lightning Link") to make it into a full-auto gun.

Either of those parts must have been made and entered into the registry prior to May of 1986, so the price will be exactly what you've found.

Once you have the registered receiver or magic bit 'o metal, you can piece together anything from a full-auto .22 LR to a full-auto .50 Beowulf, or beyond. A company near where I used to live (BRP Guns), IIRC, used to make an adapter kit so you can use your full-auto registered M-16 lower to run the "top end" of an MG-42 8mm belt-fed machine gun!

mopar92
July 13, 2011, 12:37 PM
Wouldn't the auto sear be quite cheaper than a while lower?

kingpin008
July 13, 2011, 12:42 PM
Not necessarily. The auto sear is the important (and expensive) part. Therefore, that's the bit you're gonna spend for.

mopar92
July 13, 2011, 12:53 PM
On an AR site, these goofs are talking $4k to build it up...

Rail Driver
July 13, 2011, 01:11 PM
On an AR site, these goofs are talking $4k to build it up...
Just goes to show you that you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet. If you truly believe you can legally build a full auto AR for $4k in this economic and legal environment then I've got something to sell you.

There are people that believe some strange things, and they'll go to the grave screaming it out, even if it's dead wrong and everyone around has shown them evidence that they're wrong...

We run into those problems on the internet a lot.

If you can find me a legal full auto AR-15 that costs $4k then I'd jump on it.

You can build a semi auto AR-15 for under $600 if you shop around, but the DIAS or trigger pack is what's going to cost you.

mopar92
July 13, 2011, 01:18 PM
Now wait, I didn't say full auto AR ready to go, some guys say they convert them for that....

Rail Driver
July 13, 2011, 01:25 PM
Even a legally "converted" AR, such as I mentioned (ie building a semi for under $600 then adding the trigger pack or whatever) is going to cost MUCH more than $4k. Again... If you can find me a legal FA sear or trigger pack for $4k or less, I want one.

Sam1911
July 13, 2011, 01:28 PM
Now wait, I didn't say full auto AR ready to go, some guys say they convert them for that....

Not sure what you mean, exactly...

$4,000 to convert an M-16 to run .22LR? Should be cheaper than that, though I think some of the wicked cool .22 LR BELT FED might be pricey. (No, here a Lakeside version for under $700: http://www.lakesideguns.com/title1-inventory.html)

On the other hand, if someone is a Special Occupational Tax Class 002 (and FFL) they are legally able to build a full-auto M-16 or convert a semi-auto AR-15 into one. However, those are "dealer sample" guns and cannot be sold to anyone who isn't another machine gun dealer or manufacturer, or a government agency.

Maybe some charge $4,000 for that service, but I doubt it.

Aaron Baker
July 13, 2011, 01:33 PM
You cannot "convert" an AR15 to full auto legally. Period.

You can buy a registered lower, in which case the cost of the lower ain't what makes it expensive. It's that there's a limited supply. It's a $10k+ item because of the supply.

You can buy a drop-in auto sear, which is itself the registered part, and it isn't that much cheaper to make than an AR15 lower, but again, it isn't materials that makes it expensive. It's the supply issue. No new ones can be made. Cost is probably similar to a registered lower, because either way, you get full auto, and that capability carries a steep price tag.

If you COULD convert an AR15 to full auto legally, it would cost pennies plus the $200 tax stamp, but the full auto registry is closed, so you can't. The only people that can make full autos now are special dealers, and they can only sell them to military or police agencies, not to individual civilians. For them, it costs drilling an extra hole (which is basically free) and installing the full auto parts (which aren't any more expensive to manufacture than a regular trigger or hammer for an AR15).

Understand that there are no loopholes that get you there for cheaper than what you see advertised when you're looking at a legitimate sale of a registered lower or drop-in auto sear. It costs tens of thousands of dollars. That's the truth, and no one has any magic way to get around it.

So this $4k conversion just doesn't make sense. If it was legal, it'd be a $4 conversion, not a $4k conversion, but conversions aren't legal, so it's more like $16k to $20k to get an already-registered gun.

Aaron

AlexanderA
July 13, 2011, 05:01 PM
An additional note on this -- The issue M261 .22 rimfire conversion kit is designed for use with the selective-fire M16, but when installed, the rifle will only fire in the semiautomatic mode. If you want full-auto .22 rimfire capability in a (registered) full-auto M16 or AR-15, you have to use a civilian aftermarket conversion kit, such as a Ciener.

1KPerDay
July 13, 2011, 05:19 PM
If you're not set on an AR, you can get an M11/9 and a Lage .22 conversion kit for about4 grand. Put a Lage MAX-11 upper and enough goodies on it and it sorta looks like a rifle... :D

4v50 Gary
July 13, 2011, 05:36 PM
Bump fire stocks. Not full auto, but it sure sounds like it.

Sam1911
July 13, 2011, 06:02 PM
Bump fire stocks. Not full auto, but it sure sounds like it.


Do those things work with .22s? I thought they wanted a bit of recoil to get "cycling."

MrM4
July 15, 2011, 02:11 AM
I dont think that a recoil stock could work on a 22, theres just is not enough recoil to move the gun as needed.

jmorris
July 15, 2011, 09:14 AM
You can make a full auto AR for the same price as a semi with FFL&SOT but can't transfer to civilans.

You can't get a lighting link for $4k and they are a whole $ .50 worth of metal.

Rail Driver
July 15, 2011, 10:25 AM
I work really dought that a recoil stock could work on a 22, theres just is not enough recoil to move the gun as needed.

Do those things work with .22s? I thought they wanted a bit of recoil to get "cycling."

Bump fire stocks. Not full auto, but it sure sounds like it.

No, the bump fire stocks do not work with .22LR ... I mentioned that in my first post.

I use an SSAR-15 stock on my semi auto AR and it simulates full auto fire quite effectively, but doesn't work at all with .22LR due to the lack of recoil.

DoubleTapDrew
July 15, 2011, 04:42 PM
Wouldn't the auto sear be quite cheaper than a while lower?
Last I checked registered drop in auto sears often cost MORE than a whole registered M16 receiver. They tend to be more desirable since you can put them in a new quality lower like Noveske, Colt, LMT, etc. and have basically a brand new M16 rather than a 25+ year old lower.

MasterSergeantA
July 15, 2011, 07:15 PM
Drew is correct. Other than the "collector" value of, say a Colt original, the drop-in sear is often a better choice because not only can you put it in one of the lowers Drew described, but...you can take it and move it to another receiver if the old one becomes unserviceable. Once the registered lower receiver wears out, you have an expensive paperweight. And a registered Lightning Link is another option for the same reasons.

Sam1911
July 15, 2011, 07:29 PM
Ahhh, but when the lightning link wears out, it won't hold down as much paper as the trashed receiver would.

Something to think about, long term. ...


:D

jmorris
July 15, 2011, 11:12 PM
Once the registered lower receiver wears out, you have an expensive paperweight

As a guy that owns and knows how to run a TIG and mill can you let me know where I can get one of these "paper weights"?

CapnMac
July 16, 2011, 05:00 AM
but can't transfer to civilans.

Can't transfer to non-civilians, either. Can transfer to Agencies, who can then Issue to personnel in those agencies. Who then operate those issued items per the regulations of the owners--the Agencies.

Sam1911
July 16, 2011, 09:27 AM
As a guy that owns and knows how to run a TIG and mill can you let me know where I can get one of these "paper weights"?


Yup. Usually, when a fairly "simple" chunk of metal is worth that much, nearly any amount of expert machinist's time is worth engaging to keep it functional and/or return it to perfect working condition.

We all know about "re-weld" Garands and such, and try to avoid them. But the issue there is not that the job cannot be done safely and correctly. It is that it often wasn't because the work was only done to make something cheap out of something otherwise useless.

When the item itself is worth $15-20,000, spending even several thousand dollars having a professional, qualified craftsman put a broken one back into service makes a lot of sense.

JTW Jr.
July 17, 2011, 12:37 PM
and if the lightning link cracks thru the serial number......then what ? :)

CapnMac
July 17, 2011, 06:14 PM
Dunno? Spend another couple-few grand at the expert machining place, like as not. Even a nine or ten grand 'repair' is cheaper than 15-20 for new.

But, that's a guess. I've been wrong before; likely will be again.

Zoogster
July 17, 2011, 08:11 PM
When a part is that valuable they don't wear out, they have new metal added and they get ground or machined down to spec. Metal wears thin or breaks, blob of new metal fills in where needed and you machine it down.

You can essentially build all new parts, but not from scratch, you start with what is left of the old metal so it is technically still the same part just "fixed".
You can fix something indefinitely, it is just a matter of adding more metal.
Since the regulated parts are not the parts that contain the pressure, such as the barrels or chambers, the regulated part can constantly be pieced back together rather easily.




The only real reason the registry gets smaller is people who have the firearms confiscated or lose them somehow.
Every now and then some guy with a collection of machineguns gets busted for some charge, and all those guns can end up confiscated from the prohibited person and leave civilian circulation.
Considering some people have entire vaults of registered machineguns, a rather large chunk can be removed from the registry when the right person goes down.
You hear about it sometimes and it makes the local or regional news, and I am sure there is times it goes unreported.
So the registry does shrink, but it shouldn't be from wear unless someone is naive enough to throw it away when it wear out.

Ron James
July 17, 2011, 08:43 PM
To answer mopar's original question, you want to build a cheap,papered, fully automatic rifle for just a couple hundred dollars, not going to happen.

viking499
July 20, 2011, 10:42 AM
and if the lightning link cracks thru the serial number......then what ?

Weld it on the opposite side........:confused:

If you enjoyed reading about "Full auto AR .22LR cost to build?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!