[chrt396]

First...I am a 1911 addict! I love em'!! However..there are a couple questions that I have.

#1 Why are Para and Taurus looked down upon by the gun community? Is it the dependability.., reputation, or is it just the snobbery? Are they the Yugo of 1911's?

#2 Even though the Ruger SR1911 is really hot right now, I am being told by a few dealers that the only reason they are hot is because they are cheap. All cast frame..and not of the best quality.

I have a few Kimbers, les Baer & Springfields. I paid up for some of them for I know they are quality and at this time in my life, I am able to purchase them..plus I have a great credit line! :p
My Son is wanting to get involved in target with me which is fantastic, but he has a budget. I keep pulling him off these cheap models listed above and trying to get a deal on a nicer one for him. Am I being too snobbish? Am I misguided? Do these guns actually shoot well and are they dependable? Throw a few accurate opinions or facts my way, so that I can help my kid get his first 1911, Thanks to all!

[Adam123]

Tell him to look at Rock island if he's on a budget. They have great quality for the price.
.
.

[jackpinesavages]

Well, IMHO, there are such varying opinions on said sub-$600 1911s that it's hard to pin-point: MIM parts, slide fit/finish, location of manufacurer and assembly, some folks we *might* be interpreting as snobs have owned/built a few dozen of these and their opinions are based in experience, customer service, etc.......

Either way, congrats on keeping your boy interested!!

[mbopp]

Ruger pioneered investment casting for firearms. It's one method to keep costs down - look at the price difference between Ruger and S&W revolvers.
I don't know what your budget is but a Ruger SR1911 or Springfield Range Officer might be options. If they're too much $$$ then I'd go with a Rock Island.

[chrt396]

Ruger pioneered investment casting for firearms. It's one method to keep costs down - look at the price difference between Ruger and S&W revolvers.
I don't know what your budget is but a Ruger SR1911 or Springfield Range Officer might be options. If they're too much $$$ then I'd go with a Rock Island.
Those are precisely the two I reccomended! NO ONE has them in the Tampa Bay area!! I've only called 6 or 7 places..and he wants one yesterday. I did find a NICE Springfield A-1 stainless with wood grips, ambi safety..etc for $750. I think..that this will be the one he goes for. It would do his old man proud!!!

[NMBrian]

I have been very satisfied with my Remington R1. Its been 100%.

[GDW]

My son is now 13 and loves to shoot and has fallen in love with my 1911. He shoots it very well. I have gone through many 1911's over the years but now only have two 1911's. One is a very, very nice 1* from the old Yost-Bonitz shop complete with Bar-Sto barrel (Springfield). The other is a Colt New Agent with low-mount Novak's on them (I could not get used to the trench, but the pistol runs flawlessly, so I improved the sights). I carry and shoot both. I honestly think if I was to advise my son when he is older - now this is just me - I would tell him to get a decent, stock Colt 1991A1 series 80 or Springfield Mil-Spec. Both will generally shoot great out of the box (mine always have) and tell him to save and send it off to a good smith when he figures out what he likes in a 1911 (short trigger, Heine sights, front strap checkering, arched MSH, beavertail grip safety, or that old-school look, etc.). One of those pistols will always hold their value, plus I think good pistol smiths generally like working on them. You can throw Kimber in there too - I've had some great ones - ones I wish I still had. My son will have my 1911's some day and my daughters will have my S&W M38's and 642's. Maybe they will pass them down to their kids. I'm not saying the other mentioned pistols are bad, but as of right now, this is how I am thinking.

[chrt396]

I think my son was waiting til' I died off so he could get my collection..but he's impatient. Therefore, he decided to buy one! I say this for I've mentioned that concept to him in the past, and he always chuckles!

[Hardbawl]

Chrt396:

Yes, some of us are snobs. To me the 1911 is America's pistol and as such should be made by Americans and shot by Americans. Admittably this means that I pass over some fine 1911s made where folks really don't like us. That's ok with me. To each his own.

I'm sure Ruger makes a fine 1911. I wouldn't worry about the fact that it uses cast parts. Ruger makes their living casting parts for guns and they make a good living. What would concern me is that they neglect to checker the front strap. This makes the pistol harder to shoot well. Have you son handle the Ruger and see how it feels to him. Maybe some Packmeyer grips would overcome the lack of frontstrap checkering.

If you don't trust cast. Kimber, S&W, and Colt all make 1911s with forged parts that only cost a little more. Good shooting.


Hardbawl

[Robert101]

Eventhough I don't own a Ruger or Taurus I would have no problem buying either. The Para I would not buy due to a lot of claims about bad customer service. I have not experienced this but too many comments to ignore - no Para for me.

I like the Springfiled Armory pistols because of quality and great customer service, and warranty for life.

[1911Tuner]

As far as castings go, the frame is really neither here nor there if it's a good casting. It's the slide that takes the real beating. The "gun" is the slide and barrel. The frame is essentially the gun mount. Ruger uses a machined slide.

As near as I can tell, Taurus hasn't gotten a clean handle on building revolvers yet. Can't really imagine how they'd do a lot better with a 1911.

Flame suit on...

[w2fnt]

In all fairness, there is tons of crap 1911 clones out there and price really does not matter...just saying!

[loadedround]

Shrt396: Before you knock Ruger casting, ask around and see how many Ruger competitors are buying their frames from Pine Tree Casting. This company is a wholly owed subsidiary of Strum Ruger and manufactures many of the custom big name makers of 1911 pistols. Do you think they are using poorly made frames...I think not! Ruger's SR1911 is a quality piece will eventually out shoot the so called custom pistols. JMHO.

[Dobe]

All cast frame..and not of the best quality.While I do prefer forged everything, especially on a 1911, there is nothing of poor quality about the SR1911. The one I have is very well made. I currently have over 1,300 rounds through mine.

[1911Tuner]

A good investment cast frame is as durable and serviceable as a machined barstock frame. Ruger has proven that it's got a handle on investment casting. One need only look to the brutally strong Blackhawks and Redhawks for proof. With an autopistol, the frame doesn't take nearly as much stress as the slide. The slide is where it's all happening.

[EddieNFL]

Lots of Caspian cast frames have been beat merciless by IPSC competitors.

[Walkalong]

My S&W Pro 9MM has a cast frame. They did not even machine some of the surfaces at all. (The magwell for instance) Works like a champ. The slide is obviously machined, and very nicely. All the parts that go in the slide are very nicely done as well.

[1911Tuner]

There it is. Much ado over cast frames, and no worry over the slide. The slide is the thing that you want to be machined from good steel.

[Lost Sheep]

(edited for brevity)
As near as I can tell, Taurus hasn't gotten a clean handle on building revolvers yet. Can't really imagine how they'd do a lot better with a 1911.

Flame suit on... Flame suit indeed. You are just quoting what you have heard and/or observed, and said as much. Nothing flame-able in that.

While I have heard a lot of complaints about Taurus revolvers and their polymer framed autos, I have not read or heard one complaint about their 1911. Indeed, some of the complainers mention the 1911 as Taurus' exception.

On the other hand, I have a Taurus 22 revolver and a compact 45 Auto that shoot just fine. Almost all my other revolvers bear the Ruger eagle (Plus one Colt trooper, one Freedom Arms and a handful of Dan Wessons). None of the Ruger semi-autos "spoke" to me. I prefer the safety on the frame. Finally, Ruger got one right in a centerfire auto.

Lost Sheep

[1911Tuner]

Uh...No Lost Sheep. I don't make statements like that based on what I've read on the errornet. I've been into a few Taurus revolvers and made repairs on'em.

I was...underwhelmed...to put it bluntly.

[CZ57]

#2 even though the ruger sr1911 is really hot right now, i am being told by a few dealers that the only reason they are hot is because they are cheap. All cast frame..and not of the best quality.

misinformation

[Get R Done Guns]

CZ, Agreed.

The Ruger is a great 1911, what makes it hot is it is Ruger that kicked it out. Known great manufacturer that has proven themselves with cast frames as others have said, and a GREAT price point. As for Taurus, they are the largest handgun manufacturer in the world. They also do know what they are doing.

[larryh1108]

IMO, if 1911 Tuner says something, I'd bet my life on it. He is as unbiased as anybody I've met because his opinions are formed with his hands and eyes, not some propoganda or internet hype.

[KAS1981]

Here's my take on Taurus (and it's just my opinion): They do just fine when they're cloning somebody else's design. Their own stuff? Maybe a little hit & miss.

My Taurus 1911 is awesome....I love it. It shoots great, has some nice features, and was decently priced.

[Mr.357Sig]

IMO, Para is looked down upon by the 1911 community because of their reputation of providing poor CS. Just the opposite of what I've heard about Springfield and Ruger.

The 1911 is a classic American design. So, while I love the Springfield RO (not so much the Taurus 1911), I'm going to have to pass on both since they are products of Brazil. Ruger's SR1911 is 100-percent American-made, tight, balanced and priced right. In the $700 range, it's the one to beat.

I'm buying my first 1911 soon and it will be the Ruger.

[dondavis3]

I strongly believe that he should buy an "expensive" used gun.

And it will serve him better in the long run than a new "cheap" gun.

There are lot's of reasons that I do not buy Para and Taurus.

Most have been named above - dependability / customer service / etc.

I just bought a used Kimber and took it to my 1911armourer for inspection.

He made the comment today - "if I'd know you were in the market for another 1911 I'd suggested you look at the new Ruger".

He's shot them and thinks Ruger has hit a home run.

And he works on all kinds of 1911 all day.

:cool:

[Hondo 60]

I've handled a few Taurii (?) and I'm NOT impressed.

With this "Judge" craze, I checked 'em out & the one I handled,
the cylinder would over-travel when you tried to close it.

I, personally, would buy one, but that's just me.
I know a Judge is not a 1911, but I just don't feel comfortable with Taurus quality.

I'm surprised no one mentioned a Metro Arms American Classic II.
I looked for about 6 months at the $400-$650 1911s.
And found that the ACII had excellent reviews.
Here's one review.
http://www.gunblast.com/Firestorm-1911Deluxe.htm

[1911Tuner]

In fairness, I haven't had the opportunity to get the inside story on a Taurus 1911 clone, and based my comment on what I've seen in their revolvers. If anyone here has one and is within driving distance of Lexington-Southmont, NC...I extend an invitation to come partake of my infamous turbocoffee and play with the dogs while I have a look-see.

[Hangingrock]

Ruger pioneered investment casting for firearms.

No that’s not true thou often credited as true. Remington used the investment casting process on small parts. Ruger could not afford the economic expenditures for required production machinery but realized the economics of the investment casting process and became technical experts in the process.

[CDW4ME]

I don't think you are being snobbish.
Consider the amount of MIM in the pistol and whether it is used for just a minimum of small parts, or is it the thumb safety, grip saftey (large parts).
If there is a problem with the pistol, what is the brands' repair / return time typically.
I wouldn't buy a 1911 (or any other gun) with an IL (internal lock) like Springfield, Taurus, but that's not everyones peeve.
Do a serach with "broke" or "broken" as the subject on different forums and that may help you (him) narrow your (his) choices.

[w2fnt]

Yup, the Walthers PPK is now all American made too and also all American recalled as well like the Ruger LCP. I do carry a post recall LCP though. It just takes Ruger a couple of times to get it right after Bill Ruger passed away and they started ripping off other makers gun designs to stay in business. cough!......mmmKelTec!

[Dafish2011]

I recently bought the RIA .45 tactical and the 38 Super, I have had to polish all the rough areas and I changed sights, triggers, grips and they have been great guns.

The nice thing about a gun like this is that as he upgrades parts he will learn more about the gun and build it to his wants/needs without spending much.

Granted they are not anywhere close to the Kimber, Gold Cup, Les Baer but they are not bad for the price.

[w2fnt]

RIA 1911 clones seem to be the closest to the original Colt specs that I have ever seen. I often wondered if some Colt Military tool and dies made their way into the Philippines during WWII and ended up in the Armscor factories.

[Skylerbone]

Buy yourself a new Colt with the 100 Years rollmark and give him your Les Baer. He'll have an appreciation for the 1911 and you'll have a nice bit of history to pass on years from now. I invite you to test that credit limit for his sake;-)

(Or you could just buy him a new Colt.)

[451 Detonics]

Reliability as well as being able to endure many thousands of rounds are the heart and soul of the guns used by competition shooters. There is a reason they don't use the cheap guns to build on. You get what you pay for in this life...buy a cheap gun and that is just what you will own. Cheap in price and cheap in quality. I am not saying you need to buy a "boutique" gun like a Baer either...you are paying way too much for the name. However the Colt, Ruger, S&W, Springfield, SIG....the mid range price guns in other words will be shooting when your great grandkids are ready for them.

Personally I build my 1911's using high quality components and would happily put them up against the big names...I just know what I want in a 1911 and building is the easiest way toi get there for me. If I were to buy tho it would be one of the above that I mentioned or a STI if I wanted a hi-cap.

[SwampWolf]

Even though the Ruger SR1911 is really hot right now, I am being told by a few dealers that the only reason they are hot is because they are cheap. All cast frame..and not of the best quality.


Would I be wrong in guessing that these dealers don't inventory Ruger products? Or, if they do, is it their honorable intention to sell the "really hot right now" new SR1911 pistols with full disclosure of their misgivings?

[chrt396]

Shrt396: Before you knock Ruger casting, ask around and see how many Ruger competitors are buying their frames from Pine Tree Casting. This company is a wholly owed subsidiary of Strum Ruger and manufactures many of the custom big name makers of 1911 pistols. Do you think they are using poorly made frames...I think not! Ruger's SR1911 is a quality piece will eventually out shoot the so called custom pistols. JMHO.
Not knocking Ruger. I own a SR556, Mk. 1 and a 10/22 tactical. I like the 1911 that they have come out with. It's a beautiful piece ESPECIALLY for the money. It's that I heard the casting was not the best way to go on a 1911. It did not make sense. That is why I posted this thread!

[chrt396]

Would I be wrong in guessing that these dealers don't inventory Ruger products? Or, if they do, is it their honorable intention to sell the "really hot right now" new SR1911 pistols with full disclosure of their misgivings?
I think that when they don't have them is when they criticize them. Just a thought though. I love Springfields..but the only models that are out there are the base ones. Pretty much..everyone is out of them. I did however run into a Trophy Match that JUST came in a couple weeks ago and I snagged that one. I do the rounds to the local gun stores at least once a week! I should be satisfied for at least a few more weeks.

[mdThanatos]

Taurus 1911s had an issue with the ambi-safety separating after a while and falling off the pistol, that has been the biggest issue really from my research regarding the PT1911. I don't know if it has been fixed or not but the PT1911 is probably the "safest" bet when purchasing a Taurus.

If it were me and my budget at the moment, I'd be looking at RIA, Springfield, Ruger, no particular order. For me though one of the requirements would be checkered front strap/grip. The smooth feel just don't work for me.

[Thompsoncustom]

I would say a RIA match it's handfitted, the front/back strap is checkered, and a FO front site I think it would make a high quality pistol for a starter and it's about 600 bucks. Also the STI looks to be a good deal for the price.

[Hacker15E]

Just a bump for Tuner's offer to have him look over your Taurus if you are an owner.

I've spent two separate, great days over at the Tuner house; you won't regret it. He's a class act, and just damn good people.

[1911Tuner]

Yeh yeh yeh...and you keep threatenin' to make a third trip and I keep not seein' ya.
So...When ya gonna make it, Hacker?

[wally]

I've the Taurus PT1911 in .38 Super and 9mm. Haven't got a lot of rounds through the .38 Super, but about 2000 though the 9mm, no issues. Triggers on both are surprisingly good.

I agree the RIA "Tactial" is the best bang/buck available in a 1911 and perhaps in any pistol, with the only competition perhaps being the EAA Witness Elite Match series -- although RIA customer service blows away EAA. I've used both, RIA is good but can't match S&W which IMHO sets the standard.

The RIA Match is an awesome pistol for the price, the Match long slide is even better if you can find one!

[Hacker15E]

Tuner, I'm spending the summer/fall with my Uncle Sam in far off sandy lands, but I absolutely plan to come back and visit you and go shooting again!

[1911Tuner]

Ah, yeah. Visit exotic places and strafe'em. :D

[expara]

I have never owned a Taurus Anything but I would rather have a rusty taurus than utter the words," Here, take what I have and please don't shoot me !" My advice is do your research and buy the best that you can afford, and if you can afford any Ruger, you will be well served.

[1911Tuner]

Hear, hear expara!

[Jed Carter]

My Para GI Expert was a poor working out of the box, new magazines and a lot of polishing and it is starting to work OK. Taurus like Ruger makes good revolvers but their pistols are entry level at best. STI makes the best 1911 for the money, they shoot good and work right out of the box. STI Spartan at $628 and the STI Trojan for $999 are not going to dissapoint anyone for the money. I have a Trojan 9mm, it has run flawlessly, and can shoot as well as pistols twice it's price, like the S&W 952 and SIG P210, (they are safe queens now). STI, worth more than a look...

[dondavis3]

I just received this email invite to a local gun show from a friend of mine

"I'm going to XXX gun show today to see if I can trade or sell this new Para Hawg 9mm I bought."

He's only had the gun a month.

:cool:

[Zerodefect]

The only debate I have is can a modern CNC spit out a pile of 1911 parts that work well in a design meant to be custom fitted? Well enough to compare to a modern pistol like a Glock?

The more fitting your 1911's need, the more expensive they'll be. Obviously companies are trying to cut down on this with modern machineing technology. Dan Wesson deos less fitting than Ed Brown, Kimber deos less than both. (One of the cool things about MIM.....close tolerances)

What I mean, is we know that a really good modern 1911 requires alot of custom fitting. Kimber is the cheapest brand I recommend, they seem to have the most consistant machined parts in a 1911 that's spit out of a machine with little or no fitting. At least the big parts anyways, sometimes the small parts need some help.

My point of view is that if you can't afford a defensive pistol built and fitted by a skilled craftsman, then don't get a 1911. Get a Glock instead.

I'd rather not have another 1911 machined to require no fitting, and assembled by unskilled labor. In lesser 1911's I've seen too many:
-extractors that clock (SA)
-crooked bushings (SA)
-magazines that eat frame ramps (K)
-crooked chambers (K, SA, R)
-poorly fitted barrels (K, SA, T)
-even a FP safety fail! (K)



........on the other hand, the old original GI 1911's used in WW1 & WWII seem like they're built poorly compared to most any decent 1911 out there right now. Allthough reliability wasn't analyzed back then the way it is now. I'm pretty sure my Grandfather didn't expect his 1911 to function 100% of the time, or even 98%.

So maybe none of this really matters aside from some of the cheap 1911 companies needing to improve their QC checks before pistols leave the factory.

[Axel Larson]

I have a Para before I had it, it did have a problem but from what I heard the company took care of it right away. I have never had any problem with mine and it is accurate and has a nice trigger as well.

[Skylerbone]

If all manufacturers could read specs and follow them no one would be discussing whose to buy. Seems we're chasing an ever elusive dream while they chase higher profit margins. If any of them figure out those specs and adhere to them we'll beat down their door for more. I wonder what a good reputation and decreased warranty service would do for the bottom line.

They were not meant to be custom fitted, they were meant for quick and cheap production to arm a nation. What they have become is the purpose for this very discussion.

[MICHAEL T]

Pine Tree Casting.

I thought they made Caspin frames .

My para was a 1 shot pistol after trip to factory and on a good day. Might get 3 in a row. I had a Llama that was more reliable. Finish was terrible and was way !way! over priced . I will stay with American Classic (low end ) Colt( middle road) and untill I am lot richer Dan Wesson (top of the line up)

[txgolfer45]

I've owned 4 1911's. Still own 3 of them. STI Trojan 9mm, Kimber Pro Raptor and Springfield TRP. Sold a Para-Ord to a buddy who was on a budget. The Para-Ord was reliable from day 1 and probably had 1000 rounds through it. I had no reservations selling it to a friend as I knew it was reliable.