CCI #34 primers


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dmazur
July 14, 2011, 03:07 AM
OK, I've been reloading for a Garand for a few years, using Winchester brass and WLR primers.

Many experienced reloaders recommended using CCI #34 (mil-spec) primers due to the harder cups.

I read reports that Winchester had increased the sensitivity of their primers when they went to brass colored (something about functioning better with off-center hits?). Before this, the silver ones were harder.

The thing that did it for me was a report of a slamfire with Hornady Garand ammo, which was supposed to have been made with WLR primers.

At this point, I'm a mil-spec convert. I know the odds of having trouble with WLR primers are probably very low, but the slight cost savings just isn't worth it.

After all, I have a few other rifles that aren't gas guns and they won't complain if I feed them WLR's. :)

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ArchAngelCD
July 14, 2011, 03:27 AM
I use the CCI #34 NATO primers in all my Garand ammo and as of now I have never has a slam-fire. Granted, during the shortage I couldn't buy any #34 primers anywhere so I was forced to use what I could buy. I would have liked to use a Magnum primer instead because CCI states on their site, "Use the same data as CCI Magnum primers" but I couldn't find any Magnum LR primers either. I loaded about 200 rounds using a CCI-200 standard LR primer and didn't experiance any slam-fires either. (I now have a box of CCI-250 primers set aside for any future "shortages" lol)

cfullgraf
July 14, 2011, 09:09 AM
Many experienced reloaders recommended using CCI #34 (mil-spec) primers due to the harder cups.



The primer cups are not "harder", the priming compound is less sensitive to duplicate the sensitivity of military primers. Go read the CCI web sight.

I have loaded for Garands since 2000 without issue with a variety of primers. I have never used the CCI #34 in the Garand. Main key is to make sure the primer is seated properly.

Unfortunately, ammunition manufacturers are not perfect although they try to be. Occasionally, a faulty round slips though their inspection process.

But, I do have idiosyncrasies with some of my shooting and reloading practices so if you are more comfortable using the #34 primer, then by all means use them.

USSR
July 14, 2011, 11:18 AM
The thing that did it for me was a report of a slamfire with Hornady Garand ammo, which was supposed to have been made with WLR primers.


"a report of" and "supposed to have been made"? Have been using WLR's in my Garand ammo for years (Yes, the new ones) without problems. Would take a little more conclusive evidence to make me switch. And, regarding the change in sensitivity, what this doesn't tell you is to what degree. Are the new WLR's 5% more sensitive or 0.5% (inconsequential) more sensitive. It's kind of like looking at a powder burn rate chart - you have no idea how close any two powders are burn-rate-wise, even if they are next to one another on the chart.

Don

Maj Dad
July 14, 2011, 04:45 PM
I've been reloading for Garands for over 25 years and have always used either CCI or WLR primers. I have never had a slam fire in literally thousands of rounds fired (though I have soft-fingered a few doubles over the years :o ), nor have I had problems with any of my military semi reloads. I would use CCI 34s just because they're designed for the round but they're not locally available, and the last time I ordered primers (during the Great Panic of 2008) I ordered a truck load (took a truck load of money, too :cuss: ). I have been extremely conscientious about ensuring that the primers are fully seated, something I consider essential in any semi (rifle or pistol)... :scrutiny:

ArchAngelCD
July 15, 2011, 08:53 PM
Almost forgot to mention this, I bought 6 cans of Greek M1 ammo from CMP. In the second can I opened I actually had 3 slam-fires from 3 different clips. Didn't happen with ammo in the first can, didn't happen again with the rest of the ammo from that can or the next 2 cans of ammo I used. (192 rounds per can, 768 total rounds) Go figure, never happened to me with my reloads using standard CCI and Winchester primers as well as CCI #34 primers but I got 3 with ammo specifically loaded for the Garand by a government arsenal! :rolleyes:

rscalzo
July 15, 2011, 09:57 PM
Did you inspect the rounds for corrosion? Might have caused the round to not chamber properly. We have fired thousands of rounds of the HXP in CMP matches with zero problems. But some have been known to have some pitting on the brass.

SlamFire1
July 16, 2011, 05:21 PM
A decade ago people were claiming that AR15's never slamfired. Now there are plenty of reports and Vietnam era material finally being declassified. Garand slamfires were getting to the limit of living memory when all these CMP Garands arrived and enough are being shot that it is not difficult to find reports of slamfires in the things.

One thing that totally muddied the water was an active disinformation campaign conducted by the NRA. When civilians started getting their mitts on NM Garands, they started having slamfires. In the early 60’s the NRA was a quasi Governmental organization, with a line of military directors going back to the 1870’s. As a happy little tape worm in the colon of the Army, the NRA received a lot of support and resources from the Army. The NRA, in collusion with the Army, disavowed any idea that the Garand had design issues that could cause slamfires. There are a series of articles in American Rifleman “proving” that only bad reloads or worn out Garands will slamfire. This blame shifting has gone deep into the core of the shooting community and is the origin of the myth that "only high primers" cause slamfires. One Dope Bag article actually claims “do you think the Army would ever put a dangerous rifle in it hands of its troops”.

Would any Vietnam era trooper who had his M16 jam in combat ever believe that the Army would not put a dangerous gun in the hands of its troops? You can read the coverup in the book “The Gun” by C.J. Chivers. Truly patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels.

In 1968 Congress forced an purgative down the Army’s throat, the NRA tape worm and Civilian Markmanship were flushed clean out of the Army's system. Since then the NRA is somewhat less willing to fall on its sword for all things Army.

If you are interested in reading more about the early M16 slamfire issues go to http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/ and type in “Report of the M16 Rifle Review Panel. Volume 5, Appendix 4. Ammunition Development Program”. Read the other reports. These documents were classified as part of the Army coverup of the problems with the M16 program. We are fortunate that they were retained long enough to be posted to the internet.

What you will find in that declassified report is a discussion of primer mixes. There is a common assumption that a primer is a primer is a primer. This is false.

I have found additional material in DTIC, someday I will copy, showing the percentages of materials in the primer mix.

Manufacturers can and do change the sensitivity of the primer mix, make the cup harder, change the anvil angle and depth, and probably more things, to make primers more or less sensitive.


One thing that is also not recognised is that primer sensitivity follows a bell curve.

The following section is from Mil-P-46610E:

3.2 Sensitivity.-The sensitivity shall fall within the limits specified as follows for each type of primer:

Primer Required Case Height in Inches
H +5S H -2S
Dwg . No. B10522621 7.62mm Match 15 3
Dwg . No. B10535489 7.62mm Match 16 3
Dwg , No. B10522621 7.62mm 15 3
Dwg . No. B8594094 7.62mm Match 16 3
Dwg. No. B10522621 7.62mn Grenade 15 3
Dwg . No. B10522621 7.62mm Blank 15 3
Dwg . No. B10535489 7.62mm Blank -Caliber 16 2
Dwg . No. B10522621 .30 15 3
Dwg. No. B10535489 Caliber .30 15 2
Dug. No. A5000131 Caliber .30 15 2
Dug. No. B8595819 Caliber .30 Match 15 2
Dwg, No. B10535489 Caliber .30 Match 15 2
Dwg. No. C7645332 Caliber .30 Blank 15 2
Dwg. No. B8594094 Caliber .30 Blank 15 2
Dwg. No. B6200959 Caliber .30 Carbine 18 2
Dwg. No. C11751131 Caliber .30 Carbine 18 2
Dwg. No. B7645336 Caliber .45 16 2
Dwg. No, A5001168 Caliber .45 16 2
Dwg. No. B7645339 Caliber .50 15 2

George E. Frost, in his book “Ammunition Making”, provides a good description and procedure for calculating the sensitivity numbers in a primer test. Of interest, the H – 2S (two standard deviations) means that 4 primers in 900 would be expected to fire, and H + 5S means 3 in 10, 000, 000 primers are expected to misfire. So it can be seen that even at the lowest drop, there is a significant probability of ignition. That is why in a gas gun it is important to use a “hard” primer, and to follow reloading practices which minimize the chance of a fat case binding in the chamber before the bolt is locked.


The Garand is well known for having in and out of battery slamfires. You want to use the least sensitive primer you can find in mechanisms with free floating firing pins.

On page 58 of the April 2011 Guns Magazine Mike Venturino reports having a slamfire in a K43 and SVT40 rifle with standard primers. Thankfully each slamfire was in battery.

I understand Russian primers are also very insensitive.

If you are a High Power Shooter you will find shooters who have had slamfires in Garands and M1a's. I met one guy who blew the back end of his receiver off with Federal primers. He had a Wilson match barrel installed, sized cases with a standard sizing die, and that receiver is now junk. Joe said "people ought to know how dangerous these things are to reload for". Doug had an out of battery slamfire in his 308 NM Garand, with Federal primers. Gulley blew his M1a stock apart with Federal primers when it fired out of battery. Gulley was a new shooter at the time and was copying a Marine Corp reloading technique. He had seen the USMC shooters place a round in their chambers and unlatch the magazine. Apparently they were concerned about scratching the bullet tip. With a round in the chamber they would then pull back on the operating handle and let the bolt go forward.

I would recommend that no one ever follow this practice. M1a's should always be fed from the magazine to reduce the forward velocity of the bolt and Garand shooters should use a SLED if firing single shot for the exact same reason.

You can also find reports of M1 Carbine slamfires. The mechanism is similiar, uses the receiver bridge to retract the firing pin. Since the firing pin only engages the bridge just at bolt turndown, if there is bolt bounce going on, the mechanism, just like a Garand, can slamfire in and out of battery.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/M1a%20and%20Garand%20Receiver%20Pictures/M1%20Carbine/DSCN1375.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/M1a%20and%20Garand%20Receiver%20Pictures/M1%20Carbine/DSCN1383FiringPinEngagingbridge.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/M1a%20and%20Garand%20Receiver%20Pictures/M1%20Carbine/DSCN1386FiringPinCammedBack.jpg

SlamFire1
July 16, 2011, 11:51 PM
Almost forgot to mention this, I bought 6 cans of Greek M1 ammo from CMP. In the second can I opened I actually had 3 slam-fires from 3 different clips. Didn't happen with ammo in the first can, didn't happen again with the rest of the ammo from that can or the next 2 cans of ammo I used. (192 rounds per can, 768 total rounds) Go figure, never happened to me with my reloads using standard CCI and Winchester primers as well as CCI #34 primers but I got 3 with ammo specifically loaded for the Garand by a government arsenal!

Very interesting ArchAngel.

You are not the only one who has reported slamfires with the Greek ammunition, and I believe the Greek ammunition was made for Garands.

Lucky you did not have the out of battery slamfire.

2008 slamfire with Greek HXP 88 30-06 ammunition.
http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/reload/reload.pl?noframes;read=31735#31762

Re: M1 Garand / Hang fire ?
Levisdad <Send E-Mail> -- Tues 3 Jun 2008 8:54 am
Yep 1988, Lot hxp 88j001-002
I] I also had a slamfire out of this same lot a short time ago.
The slamfire was from closing the bolt using a two round clip. It was the second stage of rapid prone. I've fired 200 rds after that with out a problem. Until the two hangfires.


Slamfire with HXP 20 Feb 2010

http://www.thecmp.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8784&page=2

Today, 09:03 AM
chevycrazy69
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 11


I]________________________________________
I have had one slamfire with a M1 garand. I was single loading during the sighters portion of a NRA high power match. Sure scared the crap out of me. I put the garand down and finished the match with my AR. I was using HXP ball. I have no idea what caused the slam fire. It has made me much more careful in how fast I let the bolt forward during single loading. I have fired hundreds of rounds (both reloads and ball) in that garand since without a single problem. I have used CCI 34 primers in all my garand reloads since. Do I feel it is needed, no. But I am a design engineer and like to take a "belt and suspender" approach to my safety. I do use winchester small rifle primers in my AR and have for many thousands of rounds. I wish I knew if that particular HXP round had a high primer or not.

http://handgunsandammo.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=cr&action=display&thread=9424


M1 Garand woes...
Thread Started on May 2, 2010, 4:39am
________________________________________
Well, today I got to attend a super-awesome marksmanship clinic on how to improve our positions for highpower shooting using sling support. I learned *a lot* The big take away was to really practice and stick to the fundamentals and get those things down.

The icing on the cake was to be a course of fire. I was using my treasured M1 Garand rifle and 1980 HXP Greek M2 150gr. ball ammunition. During the slow fire prone I was putting individual cartridges in the chamber, and then closing the bolt. During this exercise, I had an out of battery cartridge detonation. Confused and shocked me a bit, but fortunately the rifle was pointed down range, and the fired cartridge case jumped out backwards, sailed past me and hit me in the arm/torso/leg area. The primer was pimpled out and extruded a bit, but otherwise everything held together. The diagnosis was that the firing pin may have become elongated and may need replacing. I hope it is something simple. I switched to firing an unfamiliar M1 rifle, and encountered the frustration of not really knowing where it hit, and having to make adjustments on the fly. Then I had five cartridges and a magazine jump out of the rifle half-way after the third shot was fired. Then I shot an off-hand string, which was all over the paper, and I realized belatedly that the gas cylinder and the attached sights were loose and free to slide fore and aft!

So it was frustrating, to say the least. I've literally never had any issue or problem with an M1 apart from a cartridge case buckling and causing a stoppage once, and i stopped using that brand of ammo and never had a repeat. But today was clearly not my day.

Thoughts?

SlamFire1
July 17, 2011, 12:06 AM
"a report of" and "supposed to have been made"? Have been using WLR's in my Garand ammo for years (Yes, the new ones) without problems. Would take a little more conclusive evidence to make me switch. And, regarding the change in sensitivity, what this doesn't tell you is to what degree. Are the new WLR's 5% more sensitive or 0.5% (inconsequential) more sensitive. It's kind of like looking at a powder burn rate chart - you have no idea how close any two powders are burn-rate-wise, even if they are next to one another on the chart.
I used the old “Nickel” finish Winchester primer for years in my M1 and M1A rifles. But around 1999, Winchester changed their primer by eliminating the “nickel” finish to a “brass” finish. So I called Winchester to find out what this change did to primer sensititivity. Per telephone conversation with Mr. Chris Huseman at Winchester Group, Olin Corporation 618-258-3565, the old WLR primer had a zinc plating on the cup. Mr. Huseman said the material was zinc, even though I thought it was nickel. Anyway, Winchester removed that plating, perhaps with other changes, to make their primers more sensitive. The product change was specifically targeted to “combat light firing pin hits and off center strikes.”

Unfortunately, Winchester would not quantify the sensitivity increase either in lot acceptance data or drop test data. Huseman said their primer sensitivities were propriety.

I do not know if the phone number is still good, but if it really bothers you, call them up and ask. If they quantify a sensitivity difference in numbers (for example 0.5%) please post that. If they tell you in polite terms, essentially, "it is not of your **** business", please post that too.

I suspect they will tell you their primers are within SAAMI specs, pat you on your head, and send you on your impertinent way.

Since 2000 I have heard more slamfires with the new WLR, one bud at my range had one with his FAL.

Here are some reports of slamfires with WLR:

Garand Slamfire with Winchester Primers
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=39841

July 12th, 2010, 07:18 PM #16

Drmsparks
Old School Rifleman



Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: PG county
Posts: 4,489
Images: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambo
I had a Slam-fire occur with my Garand when I was using Winchester Primers. The Cup Metal is to soft in those for use in Military Rifles. I now use the CCI #34 and haven't had that problem since.
Ditto. We have had a rash of slamfires (and blown primers) with the hornady garand match ammo. According to Hornady they were winchester primers. RIP __________________


While an AK is not a Garand, this gentleman did not have any problems with Russian ammo, but he certainly had issues with Winchester factory.

Many posts in the thread are quite derogatory towards American commercial primers.

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ak-47-talk/89974-ak-slam-fire-question.html

AK slam fire question

11-05-2008 Hi guys

I thought I would throw this out there to see what you guys think might be causing a slam fire with my AK.

I took my Romy G to the local range to sight her in. I loaded up the mag with 3 rounds each time 40 rounds total. On two occasions after I fired the first shot the second went off right away. I can only describe this as a slam fire. It seems that when I fired a round something happened when chambering the new round and caused the second one to go off without pulling the trigger. I was using Winchester
White Box 7.62x39 (local range doesn’t allow wolf which is of course what I have plenty of)

11-10-2008

So I cleaned it all up and checked over the FCG real close and everything seems to be in working order. I am not getting the "hammer follow" issue. The disconnector is retaining the hammer when the trigger is fully depressed. And the trigger hook is is grabbing the front of the hammer.

I also took the bolt down and cleaned it up real nice.

I took it to the range over the weekend and put about 90 rounds of wolf down range and not a single issue. Nothing that resembled what happend when using the Winchseter ammo. I did check one of the rounds that were chambered to see if there were any marks on the primer and there was but it didnt go off.

Winchester primers in Winchester factory ammunition almost sent this guy to jail:


FAL doubling leading to ATF seizure.
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=183318
The rifle in question never doubled on me and I shot it in numerous matches.

The atf got it to double by putting the selector on FA and trying many different types of ammo until they found one with a super soft primer that would double when the hammer followed the bolt home

At the actual test firing that we conducted there were 12 tests with 4 types of ammo and only the Winchester hunting 308 doubled and it did it only twice.

The problem was a worn out firing pin spring.

I never tried to shoot the fal with the selector on FA for the obvious reason of knowing that it could only fire out of battery that to do so would be risking a dangerous outcome.
I also would never shoot expensive hunting ammo $15 a box of 20.

The HTS set (DSA) was not doubling

ArchAngelCD
July 17, 2011, 03:21 AM
SlamFire1,
Yes, that Greek M2 Ball ammo was made specifically for the M1 and comes loaded in the enbloc clips. I was shocked it happened and very concerned, so concerned I ordered a replacement firing pin spring from Wolff to possible prevent it from happening again. I don't know if that ammo was just a fluke or the spring "fixed" the problem but in any case I'm just glad it never happened again!!!

USSR
July 17, 2011, 02:44 PM
Personally, all the so-called "slam fires" I have seen with people shooting the Garand, have been caused by them "milking" the trigger. This is a fairly common thing with inexperienced shooters using the Garand, and is an operator error rather than an ammo related slam fire.

Don

SlamFire1
July 17, 2011, 02:49 PM
SlamFire1,
Yes, that Greek M2 Ball ammo was made specifically for the M1 and comes loaded in the enbloc clips. I was shocked it happened and very concerned, so concerned I ordered a replacement firing pin spring from Wolff to possible prevent it from happening again. I don't know if that ammo was just a fluke or the spring "fixed" the problem but in any case I'm just glad it never happened again!!!

ArchAngelCD: Another interesting post. A number of mechanisms, the FAL is one in particular and the M1911 is another, have spring loaded firing pins to decrease firing pin rebound. The M1 Garand is a mechanism that does not have that.

In fact the Army lightened the early Garand firing pin, just as they did the M16 firing pin, and the only reason I can think for this is because they were having slamfires.

This is a picture of the rare round firing pin. So rare they sold out at Orion7 at $100.00 apiece before I could purchase one.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/M1a%20and%20Garand%20Receiver%20Pictures/righttangsideroundfiringpinlongjpg.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/M1a%20and%20Garand%20Receiver%20Pictures/leftsideroundfiringpinjpg.jpg

In the interest of safety, retrofitting a Garand with a firing pin spring would be a great idea.

However when I went over to Wolff http://www.gunsprings.com/index.cfm?page=items&cID=2&mID=88 I did not see one listed.

Where did you get yours?

bowyer19
July 17, 2011, 11:32 PM
I had two "slam fires" with SSA 6.8 SPC 110 gr. Sierra Pro-Hunter tactical ammo. SSA said they are going back to mil spec or CCI #450 magnum primers. ( They were using CCI #400).

I had done the reset drill and it showed no problems with the weapon. Bushmaster said to go to a titanium firing pin because of the lighter weight and less inertia and SSA said go the the heavy buffer to slow bolt. I did both and have had no problems since.

ArchAngelCD
July 18, 2011, 12:13 AM
I didn't explain what I did correctly. I know the firing pin doesn't use a spring even though I wrote it. I bought the Garand spring kit sold by Wolff. I should have said I was worried about the hammer spring, my mistake. Strange things come off my keyboard at 2:30 in the morning!! LOL

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