Looking for affordable first AR

I'm planning to get my first AR, having decided that direct impingement can't be all that bad (was considering a converted Saiga), and I'm looking for some input based on personal experience with the rifles listed above.

This will be primarily for home defense and plinking. Hoping to get something that isn't likely to have problems digesting budget-priced ammo.

I want something with a flat-top upper (no A1 or A2). Don't worry about the optics or furniture that comes stock; I'll probably change that out soon anyway.
My budget ceiling is $750... an $800 rifle would be too much.

Right now I'm leaning toward the M&P. I don't care at all if there's no forward-assist, and the lack of a dust cover isn't that big of a deal to me. I'm also okay with melonite vs chrome lining. It doesn't matter to me if the twist rate is 1:8 or 1:9. And since these things can be had for about $600, that would leave more money for a red dot and extra mags.

Thanks!

If you can get the Sport, do it. I couldn't so I had to setup my own rifle recently. I ended up paying around $650 for my setup by purchasing different parts, including shipping and the FFL charge for the lower, which is what it would have cost me for the Sport if I had been able to get one locally.

This will be primarily for home defense and plinking. Hoping to get something that isn't likely to have problems digesting budget-priced ammo.


This being the case, just spend another $200 and get a quality weapon that you can depend upon for a lifetime.

You can buy the lower of your choice, completely assembled for $250-300 all over the internet. Have it shipped to your FFL. Then find the upper you want for $500 or so, and have it shipped to yourself. Pop the pins in, just like anytime you clean the rifle, and you now have a quality rifle for $800 or so that you won't regret purchasing years later.

I would trust an old Mini-14 over a corner cutting cheapo AR. Just like 1911s, if you want one that works, you have to pay for it or take your chances...

Frankenstein it!

I built mine for $450 out of used parts in 2009 during the OMGOBAMAWILLBANTHEM pricing.

Key to being cheap, is don't be picky. Key to being picky is, don't be cheap.

In your list, definitely the S&W, with the Stag not too far behind. The Olympic and the "Carbon 15" Bushmaster are not rifles I would recommend.

Not a lot of sub-$700 choices. For a long time CMMG had a $600 "bargain bin" but it appears to be gone for now. There's a chance you could find a Spike's around $700, which would be an equal or better choice than the S&W, and you might find a DS Arms close to that as well, which is probably comparable to the S&W or Stag.

This will be primarily for home defense and plinking. Hoping to get something that isn't likely to have problems digesting budget-priced ammo.


+1 on the M&P Sport for plinking... although I'll have to agree with the idea to save up some more money for a more tried and true AR with respect to primary home defense. Maybe it's just semantics, but I can understand an AR for property defense, but for actual home defense I would respectfully advise either a pistol or a tactical length shotgun.

I ended up paying around $650 for my setup by purchasing different parts, including shipping and the FFL charge for the lower
I haven't been able to price parts that low, and I would prefer to have it ready to go out of the box. But I'm not against the idea of building my first AR, and would be interested in seeing your build sheet.

and get a quality weapon that you can depend upon for a lifetime.
All reports I've read about the M&P15 Sport, by people who have owned them, describe them as being such.
The other rifles I haven't heard much about by people who have actual experience with them, and that's why I'm inquiring here.

I can understand an AR for property defense, but for actual home defense I would respectfully advise either a pistol or a tactical length shotgun.

Depends on the living situation... but that's another topic. :)

Depends on the living situation... but that's another topic. :)

Yes, but it's a pretty relevant one if HD is the primary purpose. Your budget (for now) for HD is probably going to encourage a reasonably expensive weapon light, which can further limit your AR choices. I'm only mentioning that since I'm with @RatDrall on suggesting you wait for a little more coin to be available to you. If plinking was the sole purpose, it's easier to just vote and say why. HD adds a few more variables to consider, especially on your restricted budget.

Share as much as you are comfortable (ex. a 50 ft. hallway or something). THR is here to help and argue while doing it making sure you get a pretty wide variety of opinions to consider and weigh against your own :-)

your best bet is to increase your budget another $250 and build off a BCM upper. This will get you a mil-spec upper, milspec BCG, a good assembled lower, and a decent rear sight. Pretty much the ideal minimalist's rifle that you want to last a lifetime.

You get the premium quality firearm with good resale value AND have a top-tier gun to progressively build on if you like the platform and want to dive into the tacticooling/optics/glass options of accessories.

Try JSE Surplus

http://www.jsesurplus.com/

They have some specials on their homepage.

Another idea is to add Surplus Arms lower ($164.99) to Jse Surplus complete Upper ($375): http://www.jsesurplus.com/custom16hbarmidlength1x9flattopuppercompletestandard-2-1.aspx

Lower: http://www.surplusammo.com/products/*Surplus-Ammo-%26-Arms-AR15-Lower-Complete-with-Stock.html

About $540 :D

You will need to add some sights or optics.

Hope that helps!

The M&P Sport is a truly great deal, very solid rifle with quality components in all the places that it really counts. I've put 600 rounds of super cheap Monarch and Tula steel ammo through mine with only one failure, and that one failure was most likely the fault of the ammo. I will probably end up spending 100.00 on an upper receiver that has the dust cover and forward assist, but it's more for aesthetics than an actual need for those features.

Another option you have for a low cost but high quality rifle would be Palmetto State Armory. You could build a very high quality rifle from them for less than 600.00. Take a look at their site and you'll see that they use high quality steel in their BCG's, MPI and HP tested, chrome lined bores and chambers, and proper staking even in their lowest price offerings. I already have one of their stripped lowers (reg. price is 79.99) and they have a M4 rifle kit that includes everything needed to build a complete rifle (minus the lower receiver) with the above mentioned features for 479.99. You can also get this kit which comes with magpul moe stock and pistol grip, and a Yankee Hill 9 inch free float tube already installed http://palmettostatearmory.com/2257.php . Including the cost of a stripped receiver, thats a nice set up for around 700.00.

I do keep my carry pistol on the nightstand as my primary go-to defense weapon. I've got a pump shotty at my disposal as well, although at 40", it's a tad too long for maneuvering. I think an AR, being 8" shorter with the stock collapsed, would be easier to maneuver.

But, like I said, that's a different discussion.

I'm primarily concerned with opinions regarding which of the aforementioned rifles is the best quality, independent of stock opticals, furniture, and lighting options. That stuff is going to be about the same for any of these rifle choices.

Try a Del-Ton. They recently started making complete rifles, not just uppers. Friend of mine picked one up from her local dealer for $650 plus tax. 16" barrel, flat top or a2 handle (your choice). It has the forward assist, dustcover, and all the other parts you'd expect.

They're made in North Carolina, so it's a US product too! Nice looking guns. I think the MSRP on them is about $750, but a dealer should be able to work out less.

As for reliability, there's the standard "no steel case" disclaimer in the included manual. I've had a few mag's worth of trigger time on it, no jams with PMC ammo as long as its properly lubed. She's got 2000+ rounds into it now, but no parts failures, and only a couple of FTF's, both of which happened after the gun started to get a bit dry. Adding more oil fixed the problem.

Oh, and did I mention it had a 5.56 chamber? :)

your best bet is to increase your budget another $250 and...

I already used this rationalization to pay $300 extra for OME shocks for my jeep instead of the Skyjackers! :D I need to stick with the budget this time.

I thought Stags were supposed to be good, but no one is recommending the Model 1. Is that one significantly inferior, or does no one have experience with it, or are Stag rifles actually not so great?

If I were to build one, for two parts of equal price, how do I choose one? How would I select two equally-priced lower over another? Just brand reputation?

for actual home defense I would respectfully advise either a pistol or a tactical length shotgun.
Please tell us why.

Geniusiknowit,
For the price listed the Stag Model 1 or the M&P-15 Sport are your best options.

The Pros of the Stag are the chrome lined bbl, double heat shield handguards, dust cover, and forward assist. The cons are that you don't get M4 feed ramps, nor an HPT/MPI bolt (unless you spend an extra $100 for the plus package, which gets you those and a few more features).

The Pros of the M&P Sport are M4 feed ramps, HPT/MPI bolt, 1:8 twist (will stabilize heavier / longer bullets), 5R rifling (reduces friction, known for accuracy), Ferritic Nitrocarburized (Melonited) bbl (3/4 the wear resistance of hard chrome lining, without loss of accuracy), and lower price. The cons are lack of forward assist & dust cover, and unshielded handguards.

For me, the HPT/MPI BCG, M4 feed ramps, and Melonited 1:8 5R bbl were more important than having a dust cover & forward assist. I didn't care about the unshielded handguards either, because I knew they'd be coming off anyway. If you like standard handguards, shielded sets can be had from the big name online AR places for under $25. I've also owned an M&P-15 A before, and knew from that experience that their lower parts are good to go. For some, the feature set on the Stag may be more appealing.

I've owned an Olympic as well. It was a good plinker, but nothing I'd run hard, nor trust for personal defense.

The Bushmaster Carbon 15 is another good plinker. I'm not convinced of the durability of the upper & lower receiver though. Bushmaster doesn't consistently (if at all) properly stake carrier keys, nor receiver extension castle nuts on any of their rifles. I've also seen too many Bushmasters with out of spec. chambers.

ugaarguy: Good in-depth analysis. Thank you.

Try JSE Surplus

Who is this BD/Bull Dog brand? I've never heard of them.

I don't think Stag's market share is what it used to be.

That S&W should serve you well. Building your own is fun, and you can get picky about the specs.

However I can't say if the S&W will tolerate steel cased ammo. Your magazine choice may be a factor there.

However I can't say if the S&W will tolerate steel cased ammo

I've a couple of the S&W M&P models above the Sport and they have shot nothing but steel cased ammo. No issues.

Is there a significant difference in the velocity of a 14.5" bbl vs the full 16"?

Edit: nevermind, I'll stick with the 16".

To be frank, your budget doesn't fit your needs. One of the other needs to change.
Personally I suggest saving for another month or whatever and getting something better suited for the HD role.

Of what you listed only the S&W is even on the radar and the Sport model is really the bottom of the barrel for them.

Is there a significant difference in the velocity of a 14.5" bbl vs the full 16"?

Nope. It is insignificant unless you are talking extreme long range shots.

Please tell us why.


Suggestion is based on the OPs intended purpose, and budget. Any school of thought with re: to in-home tactics is completely up to the OP, hence it was a respectful suggestion offering alternatives. It's just for a $700 hard budget, for his AR to be primarily HD off the bat is a difficult thing to configure. Hence, the encouragement to save up some more coin to be more flexible.

your best bet is to increase your budget another $250 and build off a BCM upper. This will get you a mil-spec upper, milspec BCG, a good assembled lower, and a decent rear sight. Pretty much the ideal minimalist's rifle that you want to last a lifetime.

You get the premium quality firearm with good resale value AND have a top-tier gun to progressively build on if you like the platform and want to dive into the tacticooling/optics/glass options of accessories.
This

And
Check out Palmetto State Armory for lower build kits and other gear. Take a look at www.cdnninvestments.com and www.dsgarms.com for mags and gear too.

CDNN has had some great deal on S&W M&P ARs in the past, definitely worth downloading their catalog or making a phone call!

This being the case, just spend another $200 and get a quality weapon that you can depend upon for a lifetime.

Nothing about the Sport that won't last for that same lifetime. The melonite treated barrel will last 4 to 5 times longer than an unlined barrel offered in other AR's in the same price range. The rest of the operating parts are top tier.

Personally I suggest saving for another month or whatever and getting something better suited for the HD role.

I know I let the dished build up a couple days sometimes, but my house can't be that harsh of an environment. Are these rifles all that undependable, or has the ultra-reliability of most modern ARs got people a little bit spoiled? The opinions and reviews I've read of the rifles I listed above were all along the lines of "I've put 1000-2000 rounds through it with no problems."

Of what you listed only the S&W is even on the radar and the Sport model is really the bottom of the barrel for them.
The M&P-15T is using the Melonite 1:8 5R bbl. now as well. The T has Troy flip up sights, a Troy free-floated quad rail, a dust cover, a forward assist, and a standard trigger guard. The Sport has a trigger guard integral to the lower forging, standard handguards, F height FSB, LMT style A2 fixed BUIS, no FA, no dust cover. The guts - The bbl, BCG, LPK, receiver extension (AKA buffer tube), buffer, and buffer spring are the same. The F height FSB is the same as on the other M&P-15 models with A-frame FSBs. I've pointed this out before: VLTOR's high end MUR (Modular Upper Receiver) is offered in two configurations, one of which doesn't have a forward assist. From hands on evaluation of the Sport compared to high end ARs I own (DDM4V1) or have owned (Noveske, LMT, Colt, S&W M&P-15 A), S&W cut corners in the least critical places on the M&P Sport. They retained the most critical parts, and kept the assembly at the same high standard as on the rest of their M&P-15 rifles.

I wouldn't keep typing about these things if I wasn't so impressed with the level of rifle S&W is putting out at the price point in the M&P Sport. I hope y'all find my observations objective & helpful.

i would go with a del-ton. should easily be able to get what you want for between 600 and 700. nice rifles

how about a colt, I got my colt comp target H-bar for 725 NIB after tax& transfer , tho took alot of haggling between the many dealers at a local gun show



this was also ten years ago tho

My vote went for "other" so my other choice is either frankenstein it or buy a spikes tactical m4gery

or buy a spikes tactical m4gery

I haven't seen any of these for $750 or less.

I know I let the dished build up a couple days sometimes, but my house can't be that harsh of an environment.

Well, the good news is that if you use an AR your dishes stand a good chance of not being hurt :-) Your home's layout is your business, but unless you live in a mansion with long hallways and plenty of distance between points of cover, a shorter ranged weapon such as pistol or shotgun will most often have quicker target acquisition, and the shotgun reduces dependency on fine motor skills in a high tense situation happening in your home. That's a safe generalization based on the info you provided. You could be fully trained, and very capable for all we know. :-)

Are these rifles all that undependable, or has the ultra-reliability of most modern ARs got people a little bit spoiled? The opinions and reviews I've read of the rifles I listed above were all along the lines of "I've put 1000-2000 rounds through it with no problems."

With regard to the Sport, undependable? No. It's a heck of a gun for as little as $550-$700, but it's also a marketed Sport rifle, and that doesn't spell much confidence for home/property defense given their other offerings, and for the pickiest of AR enthusiasts who as you know are a really opinionated crowd. While it may be the lower end of their tactical line, the rifle hasn't been around long enough for that HD vote of confidence. I'd like that for a 2nd or 3rd AR though, it's got some serious features for the price. The minimalist build without the FA or dust cover is also very neat.

I think you are asking the right questions, my experience was similar. My opinion is that your $700 budget is close enough to suggest saving a bit more and getting an overall better AR for your stated needs. It's not meant to be a negative review of the options in your list, and I'm not towing any particular reputable brand in their stead.

a shorter ranged weapon such as pistol or shotgun will most often have quicker target acquisition, and the shotgun reduces dependency on fine motor skills in a high tense situation happening in your home. That's a safe generalization based on the info you provided. You could be fully trained, and very capable for all we know. :-)
That's a rather misinformed generalization. A defensive style long gun (18.5 to 20 inch bbl shotgun, medium caliber carbine; not a big scoped magnum hunting rifle) is going to have faster target acquisition. The three points of contact - buttstock on shoulder, grip on stock, and grip on forearm - of the long gun greatly aid in target acquisition, recoil management, stability, and follow-up shots.

While long guns reduce dependency on fine motor skills when compared to handguns (see previous paragraph), shotguns do not reduce dependency on fine motor skills over carbines. At short ranges, the shot pattern does not open up, and you still have to aim the shotgun. Many experienced defensive shotgunners prefer tighter patterning defense loads to extend effective range as well. Shotguns also have a fair amount of recoil in appropriate defensive loadings, even with reduced recoil buckshot loads. Go take a read over in the shotguns forum here; and take a look at the posts by Dave McCracken, sm, Lee Lapin, and the other gurus in regard to shotgun fit. Fitting a shotgun involves swapping or modifying the stock, fitting a recoil pad, and, in some cases, shimming the stock. In fact, my 870P stock is off with the local shotgun stock guru being shortened, and having a recoil pad fitted.

In comparison, a good carbine (like the AR-15 in this case) has light recoil, and low muzzle rise; both of which lead to faster, more accurate follow-up shots. An AR with a collapsible stock is easily fitted by simply adjusting the stock to the user. Mounting optics is easier on an AR as well. Fast initial shots with minimal dependence on fine motor skills practically begs for a quality non-magnified red dot.

With regard to the Sport, undependable, no. It's a heck of a gun for as little as $550-$700, but it's also a Sport rifle per S&W, and that doesn't spell much confidence for home/property defense for the pickiest of AR enthusiasts who as you know are a really opinionated crowd.
I'd be one such picky AR enthusiast. You may wish to re-read post #28. If you want even more detail on the abuse I've already applied to a Sport read here:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=597230&page=2 .

If you HAVE to have an AR-15 for home defense, and occasional plinking the S&W's seem fine.

I have a BCM ( and a nice custom built AK 47) but I rely on my cheap $150 mossberg 500 and a $250 dollar S&W 19-3 (.357 revolver) call me old school. I don't foresee the NEED for 30 rounds on tap, 11 rounds suits me more than adequately.

Plus, there's no argument whether they're reliable or powerful enough.

That's a rather misinformed generalization. A defensive style long gun (18.5 to 20 inch bbl shotgun, medium caliber carbine; not a big scoped magnum hunting rifle) is going to have faster target acquisition. The three points of contact - buttstock on shoulder, grip on stock, and grip on forearm - of the long gun greatly aid in target acquisition, recoil management, stability, and follow-up shots.

I wouldn't say that's misinformed, there's a lot of diverse info out there trying to cover a near infinite amount of HD scenarios. I've already made note that there are many schools of thought. Yours is one of them, but please don't think I'm trying to confine the OP to a single one. I've read your posts before and I do very much appreciate them and I do not disagree or suggest otherwise as to completely ignore yours. Others and myself simply suggested that the OP's budget is too little right now, for his rifle purchase to be primarily HD. If the OP (whether he meant it this way, not so sure) wants the rifle as an eventual HD AR, by all means that's his decision, and not what we are addressing. I like the Sport.

While long guns reduce dependency on fine motor skills when compared to handguns (see previous paragraph), shotguns do not reduce dependency on fine motor skills over carbines. At short ranges, the shot pattern does not open up, and you still have to aim the shotgun.

I read your background, and that's your training. There's alternatives. I'm not making an egregious claim that HD ARs are inferior and should never be utilized. A tactical length shotgun, and a variety of shells, will rarely NOT be adequate inside a home. My chopped down to 29" pump will get the job done in my home... but that's MY home. The OP needs to make his own distinctions.

Mounting optics is easier on an AR as well. Fast initial shots with minimal dependence on fine motor skills practically begs for a quality non-magnified red dot.

The strict budget of our OP will be hard-pressed to include a quality non-magnified red dot even with purchase of the Sport. That's the only place where I'm not encouraging his stated intentions for the gun as a primary HD. I'm not suggesting that the Sport will never be an HD when he can expand his budget.

UGA, if you can recommend a quality red-dot to go along with the Sport, that won't break the $700 hard budget the OP has, I encourage you or other readers to do so. The only thing I know about optics is that for a $700 budget, it's hard to include one.

I'd be one such picky AR enthusiast. You may wish to re-read post #28. If you want even more detail on the abuse I've already applied to a Sport read here:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=597230&page=2 .

I'm not bashing the Sport at all. There's been a few really good experiences, and not very if any negative ones. You might be picky, but there are those here much pickier who'll start complaining about metallurgy, chrome, etc... just like they did in the thread you linked. It'll take time to win those people over, and hopefully the OP will realize that more than half of what this board thinks he needs, he'll only need probably half of that.

OP: UGA makes great points for consideration in your decision and budget. I trust that you've got plenty of point/counterpoint to help you narrow down what's best for where you are. Good luck.

Also, thanks UGA for the exchange. I learned a few things and my perspective has been broadened.

Try a Del-Ton. They recently started making complete rifles, not just uppers. Friend of mine picked one up from her local dealer for $650 plus tax. 16" barrel, flat top or a2 handle (your choice). It has the forward assist, dustcover, and all the other parts you'd expect.

They're made in North Carolina, so it's a US product too! Nice looking guns. I think the MSRP on them is about $750, but a dealer should be able to work out less.

...:)
I'm happy with my Del-ton, 16" mid-length. If you go with standard options (no upgrades) then the price is right at $750.00. It took 8 weeks from the time I ordered it to arrival at my FFL. Only regret is I should have gone with a 1 in 7" twist barrel, but overall its a great MIL Spec gun. Comes with two mags, sling, case and cleaning kit. BTW after six weeks I called the customer service and convinced them to send me a free T-shirt!:)

I wouldn't keep typing about these things if I wasn't so impressed with the level of rifle S&W is putting out at the price point in the M&P Sport.

+1. I bought the Sport mainly because it came with a melonite treated barrel at a price point that other manufacturers offer unlined barrels, polymer lowers, etc. I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the rest of the rifle. I wouldn't trade the Sport for anything else that I've seen on the market at $750 or less. I might consider a BCM or Spikes Tactical because those appear to be good value at around $800.

Don't worry about the optics or furniture that comes stock; I'll probably change that out soon anyway. My budget ceiling is $750
Right now I'm leaning toward the M&P. I don't care at all if there's no forward-assist, and the lack of a dust cover isn't that big of a deal to me. I'm also okay with melonite vs chrome lining. It doesn't matter to me if the twist rate is 1:8 or 1:9. And since these things can be had for about $600, that would leave more money for a red dot and extra mags.
Based on those two statements from geniusiknowit in his initial post, I'm assuming the $750 hard budget is for the rifle, and that the intent is to add optics / make minor upgrades on a separate budget later - OP correct me if this is wrong. The one immediate upgrade I'd make to the Sport is spending $25 to get heat shielded handguards on it. Otherwise, it's GTG out of the box.
I read your background, and that's your training. There's alternatives. I'm not making an egregious claim that HD ARs are inferior and should never be utilized. A tactical length shotgun, and a variety of shells, will rarely NOT be adequate inside a home.
John, please also understand that I'm not opposed to shotguns for HD either. Probably kinda obvious with the comments about getting my 870P stock fitted :) . In fact, on an even tighter budget, I'm a big proponent of Plain Jane, US made, pumps. As you state, they're almost always more than adequate to do the job. The low price of reliable basic models leaves funds for fitting & practice shells.

On the AR-15 side, I suppose I should expound upon my reasoning. I've seen folks with no shooting background take to AR-15s quickly. Once they get past the loud report, the low recoil makes them easy. Very good stock sights help as well. I've also seen folks with extensive backgrounds with traditional hunting rifles & shotguns take to AR-15s quickly. For those folks, the sound and the recoil aren't the problem, but the looks. Once they get past the looks that group also takes quickly to the great irons, and realize that rifle is actually comfortable even though it feels a little different. Much as I wish I could credit Eugene Stoner with those great sights, I can't. Starting with the the '03 A3; and tracing through the Garand, to the M14, to the M16; it's pretty clear where the sights came from. I guess about 100 years of development doesn't hurt.

UGA, if you can recommend a quality red-dot to go along with the Sport, that won't break the $700 hard budget the OP has, I encourage you or other readers to do so. The only thing I know about optics is that for a $700 budget, it's hard to include one.
I can't make a recommendation if the optic must be included at the $750 hard budget. I can suggest, based on reviews from other members here whom also have known backgrounds, that the OP look at the Vortex StrikeFire for $150. I'd still recommend using the funds for other things: $25 handguard upgrade already mentioned, a light & mount, spare mags, and AMMO. But as you say John,
...but that's MY home. The OP needs to make his own distinctions. That may be the best advice in the thread.

OP you've seen some views here that are at times complimentary, and at other times divergent. As John says, make your own distinctions. Evaluate what everyone here has posted, and figure out what fits your situation. As the sages here say - it's your gunfight, none of us will be there to fight it for you.

I bought a Rock River and have had no problems with it what so ever.

DPMS

Cheap.

Spend your cash on red dot and ammo.

well this is a very interesting thread. personaly i don't see 1 thing wrong with owning a rifle that you can go out and plink with and also use for HD.i bought a 590A1 for HD and its not much good for anything outher than that....sure can't dove hunt with it. but an AR...you can go 2 the range,leave there and go coyote hunting,bring it home and have it for HD. i've seen lotts of tests and a .223 is alot less likely 2 end up in somebody elses house. 9mm...buckshot etc will go through more walls than a .223/i personaly prefer a chrome lined barrel so i voted Stag but the Smith is a good AR can't argue that. my personal favorite AR is BCM i LOVE mine but its gonna go over budget. with that said i never flip my dust cover up and i've never needed my foward assist.....

Check Del-ton and also CMMG bargin bins. CMMGs are sold out now but call them and see if and when they expect to have more. $650 out the door for chrome lined or $599 w/o chrome. Just a thought. There is a thread going on now about Del-tons and many of us here at THR have one. CMMGs same thing; both are within your price range and good options..

This being the case, just spend another $200 and get a quality weapon that you can depend upon for a lifetime.


The MP15 sport is a quality weapon. If you know ARs and have personally inspected one it would be clear. The gas key is properly staked, Bolt is MP stamped, reciever extension is of Mil-Spec measurments, Upper/Lower fit is solid (no need for reciever spacer), the barrel is Melonite treated and of similar quality to chrome lining, barrel is chambered in 5.56 and has a 1x8 twist, which is a great "middle of the road" twist rate for ARs. All in all, it is a great rifle for the money. The dust cover is an un-necessary tool for most applications. Anyone who has been overseas and used their dust cover, knows the moon dust gets in the gun anyway, regardless of the use of your dust cover.

DPMS

Cheap.

Spend your cash on red dot and ammo.

Indeed... DPMS= Cheap

Heres a better one... DPMS is to ARs ..as.. Century is to AK's

DPMS doesnt care what they send out the door. Not on a personal note anyway. My first AR was a DPMS. The gas block came off after 2 mags and the Trigger pin was installed backwards. (Yes it can be installed backwards, and if you didnt know that then you are probably a DPMS gunsmith)

DPMS

Cheap.

Spend your cash on red dot and ammo.
Right on! got mine for $556 a month ago.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/70770
(ignore the scope in the pic. it doesnt come with it.)

geniusiknowit, I was in the market for an affordable AR recently and decided to shop around and get some info in the process. What I found is that alot of the parts that go into the different AR15's are made by the same father company w/ different barrels and some other parts thrown in to make them slightly different from eachother. You can look at the upper of most ar15 and there is a little stamp that you will find on almost every one....since that is the case and most parts are interchangable it doest really matter which one you go with. Some AR15 have better triggers then others and better sights but like I said all of that can be changed or worked on by yourself if you are slightly handy. I have a Bushmaster lower and a Rock River upper and LOVE the combination. I just recently worked on the gritty trigger myself and now have a respectably smooth trigger and have basic iron sights which i actually really like and will probably not change out. I feel that you can EASILY spend within your budget if you shop around and are not afraid to purchase slightly used components to an AR15.

I have 1200 rounds through my Sport with two stoppages due to out of spec reloads. It's range pick-up brass, so that tells you something.

The only thing I can suggest for the Sport is a heat shielded handguard. The stock one is just plastic and gets hot.

I haven't even bothered to replace the stock. It works fine. All I did so far was get a riser for my Millett red dot and get a GI web sling, and buy a 30rd PMag.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3360/p1010442y.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/225/p1010442y.jpg/)

Based on those two statements from geniusiknowit in his initial post, I'm assuming the $750 hard budget is for the rifle, and that the intent is to add optics / make minor upgrades on a separate budget later - OP correct me if this is wrong.

No, this is correct. The budget is just for the rifle, because I am allowing a certain amount of additional funds for decent optics. Sorry if there was any confusion over that.

These are all useful responses. Thank you, guys.
I'm looking at different possibilities for building one. But I do like that the Sport takes a lot of guesswork out of it and still comes in at or below what it looks like I could build one for.

when u buy your rifle remember we need pics and and a range report

Will do!

You can look at the upper of most ar15 and there is a little stamp that you will find on almost every one....since that is the case and most parts are interchangable it doest really matter which one you go with.
That "little stamp" is the forge mark. All it tells you is who did the initial forging of the stripped upper. It doesn't tell you who did the final machining, who assembled the complete upper, what parts they used - it basically tells you nothing. If think all parts are equal, well, keep thinking that :rolleyes: .

Well I'm surprised it hasn't come up or maybe I missed it. These discussions always get around to over-penetration eventually.
With proper ammo selection .223 / 5.56 has less concern of over penetration than handgun rounds, and shotgun rounds. I'll not re-write what's already been discussed. The Rifle Forum Reading Library, that sticky at the top of this forum that everyone ignores contain good info. Including this thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=210739 .

i keep a PMAG loaded with hornady v-max for personal deffense 60gr

"I can't make a recommendation if the optic must be included at the $750 hard budget. I can suggest, based on reviews from other members here whom also have known backgrounds, that the OP look at the Vortex StrikeFire for $150."

I have the Vortex Strikefire mounted on my Del-Ton. Good lil red dot with red or green dot options and adjustable intensity. Only other thing I added was a BUIS, so total cost for me after figuring in shipping and FFL transfer fee was about $1,050.00. Very happy with Del-Ton!:D

I'm assuming you can't build your own (or at least shouldn't, not yet). I'm a former SDM instructor, I know a LOT about these rifles.

In that case, get a reliable maker. Stay away from gas pistons, only a couple of makers have them ironed out (direct impingement is fine). The more mil-spec the better. Stay away from too much tacticool junk, for instance, just get the regular pinned on front sight tower. They work better and don't fall off. If you get a rail, get a free floating one unless you get a military KAC for a steal. Stay away from bolt on junk. If there is a version that pins on, get that instead. Did I say mil-spec? Oh yeah, get mil-spec parts. Particularly the small parts, the buttstock, lower parts, and upper parts.

The army changed the mags. Most people on here haven't figured it out yet, still preferring the green follower mags to the tan ones, but they'll get it soon enough. Buy the GI mags with tan followers, if you can't find them, get a few green ones and wait until the contract is fulfilled. Then get the tan follower mags. They work better.

As far as a manufactured rifle, I'd stay away from Oly. They are right down the street, I can be there in half and hour or so. I go there for parts from time to time, they do have some good parts. Their receivers are fine. But their trigger group is TRASH! Cast or whatever, the engagement surfaces are parkerized, this means you can't work in or polish a good engagement surface and get a nice trigger.

DPMS makes a good trigger. I hear mixed reviews about their whole rifles, but I think they are okay. Not tops, but good.

Colt will be the best all around you can go with for the money. A little more than what you wanted to spend, but you'll be glad you did. Just get the right model, the military ones. Others here will knock this advice, but trust me, I used Colt's in the army and those things performed better overall than any other AR I've ever seen, even the expensive ones.

Bushmaster is supposed to be a close second to Colt. Lots of folks say Bushmaster is the closest thing a civilian can get to a mil spec rifle from a commercial company.

Stag, Model 1, etc. From what I can tell, their quality has come leaps and bounds. In the 90's, there were a handful of AR makers, and then there were a handful of junk makers. These guys used to be the junk makers. I guess they turned a leaf. Stag looks pretty good now.

Frankenrifle. That is what I go with. I make my own of course. But I know what I am doing and what to look for. Lots of people think they do, so beware, don't let joe-blow build you your rifle.

My advice? Find a slightly used Bushmaster or similar rifle. I highly recommend getting one with a carry handle on it and standard front sights. You should get proficient with those first, then worry about optics. When selecting a rifle, pull the trigger slowly. If it creeps and feels grainy and very stiff, then you might want to stay away from this one. Compare a DPMS trigger to an Oly for an idea. Also, look at the bolt carrier. Look for machine marks. Is it smooth or does it have rough marks where it looks like it was carved with a knife? The attention to detail they apply there could be applied to other areas of the weapon, for good or worse.

Problem with AR's today? Everybody makes one. Some are good, some are trash, some are trash with good internals and some are good rifles with trash internals. Buyer beware. Get a very knowledgeable friend to go with you, or stick with Colt or Bushmaster.

Bushmaster is supposed to be a close second to Colt. Lots of folks say Bushmaster is the closest thing a civilian can get to a mil spec rifle from a commercial company

Did we go back to 1994? Bushmaster is no where close to Colt quality and not even to be considered in the closest you can get to mil spec in a civilian rifle. BCM, DD, Noveske all meet or beat the TDP. Bushmaster can't even come close to meeting it. Especially now that Cerberus is in charge.

Did we go back to 1994? Bushmaster is no where close to Colt quality and not even to be considered in the closest you can get to mil spec in a civilian rifle. BCM, DD, Noveske all meet or beat the TDP. Bushmaster can't even come close to meeting it. Especially now that Cerberus is in charge.
As well as the more affordable offerings from Spikes...

True. I dislike Spikes for many reasons but would take one over a BM any day.

IMO.
Cheap go Stag, good rifle.
Expensive go Colt, good rifle w/ resale if you decide to trade up.

I really can't offer much more to the excellent analysis already presented.

I'm assuming you can't build your own (or at least shouldn't, not yet)

Only because I don't yet know how to judge one manufacturer's parts against those from another manufacturer. :)

Stay away from gas pistons, only a couple of makers have them ironed out (direct impingement is fine).

It has crossed my mind a couple times to ditch the optics (and the AR) for now and buy a 556, but I have been hearing mixed reports on Sig's QC for this rifle. And piston ARs sound too iffy, and too far above my rifle budget.

Thanks for the advice on the trigger and mags.

Right now I would check out one of those cold hammer forged barreled uppers from Palmetto State Armory for $499. Word from Palmetto State is this is an FN barrel. Add their Classic complete lower for $239 and you are about as far left on the chart as you can get in your price range.

FN eh?

Del-Ton's a great place to start. If you want, you can get a complete upper, and build your own lower (takes about an hour). It's a nice gun when you're done

I would trust an old Mini-14 over a corner cutting cheapo AR..:) Well said.
I always seem to spend more when building and AR cause I want certain things and the cheap ones don't offer me what I need:mad:. FWIW

I'll have to second the Palmetto State Armory suggestions. I purchased a stripped lower and lower build kit, and the quality was second to none. I've handed a few of their uppers and BCGs in their store in Columbia, SC, and evreything looks to be well finished and of high quality (proper staking, MPI testing, etc.). The word is that most of their parts suppliers are the same folks who supply to FN Manufacturing (also local to Columbia, SC) who build the current contract of M16s and M249s.

Spikes is also a proven choice for high-quality and reasonably-priced ARs (both full guns and upper halves). You just have to be willing to wait a while for one. I have a Spikes upper half on my M4gery that has been 100% reliable.

Well, I still haven't bought it yet, but I'm about to.

I'm still liking the S&W Sport.
I like the 5R rifling, and melonite barrel, and the 1/8 twist rate sounds like it would suit me better than 1/7.

But I've also been checking out a couple mid-length kits from PSA and Del-Ton, and I might be leaning toward one of these.

Mid-length sounds the way to go for a 16" barrel, and both do have m4 feed ramps.

The one I am looking at from PSA (http://palmettostatearmory.com/2276.php) has a 1/8 stainless barrel and a 223 wylde chamber. I want a higher level of corrosion resistance, so basic chromoly is out. The stainless isn't going to be as hard as chrome lined or melonite, but I don't think that's gonna become an issue for me with the way I plan on shooting. PSA has some with chrome-lined barrels, but they're all 1/7 twist, and I will probably not shoot the heaviest bullets near as often as I will the lighter or middle weights. I'm assuming the wylde will suit my needs as well as a 5.56 chamber. People generally don't seem to report problems shooting Silver Bear out of it.

The one from Del-Ton has a 1/9 chrome lined barrel and 5.56 chamber. (http://www.del-ton.com/Rifle_Kit_p/rkt104.htm) I'm really not too concerned about the difference in accuracy between the stainless and chrome lined barrels (though it's too bad melonite isn't an option on either), so if 1/9 is a good all-around twist rate, I think I'd choose the Del-Ton kit over the PSA.

Prices for each kit are the same.
I just missed out on PSA's $50 stripped lower, but $80 still isn't a bad price, assuming it's a quality product. If I could get a used lower for less in a FTF sale, that'd be fine, too.

Haven't bought a gun in a while... getting a bit antsy! Need to decide.

The FFL I use for shipping is really into the tactical stuff. He works out of his house and he's very AR savvy. Lots of the soldiers here at Ft. Campbell go to him. He buys, sells and makes 'em. He's a true stand up guy, prompt, polite and very business-like. If you PM me, I could introduce you. He can whip up something exactly as you'd like it.

Note: I have no vested interest in any of his business nor am I an AR junkie. I just suggested him because he's good at what he does, is honest, and his prices are very reasonable.