No Guns = No Money: Let's educate the masses.


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ElectrikKoolAid
July 16, 2011, 12:58 PM
I recently talked with a local business owner about his "No Guns" sign on his front door.

He stated he didn't realize that there a number of people who can legally carry, and the sign was aimed at the thugs, not "good" people. Unfortunately, the sign (which carries the weight of law in North Carolina) does not distinguish punks from people.

He agreed he would actually like to have legitimate gun owners around if the SHTF. In this case, education worked.

Using ideas from a thread on another forum, I have produced some cards that can be printed and handed out to other business owners.

Please help spread our message in a non-obnoxious manner!

http://snoballs.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/no-guns-no-money.gif?w=538

http://snoballs.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/no-guns-no-money-2.gif?w=538

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cambeul41
July 16, 2011, 01:21 PM
Perhaps "unlawful" instead of "unlicensed" might be appropriate in some jurisdictions?

Axel Larson
July 16, 2011, 01:27 PM
Yes unlawful would be better around here "Vermont" because you do not need a permit to carry. although that is a good idea. Thanks for sharing

Nushif
July 16, 2011, 01:30 PM
I love the signs! this is one of the few activism things that is *almost* entirely to my liking.
unbold and un"shout" the criminal line and I will gladly carry business cards with that on it, should I ever run into a no guns sign here in Oregon. Oh yeah ... and as people said ... unlawful I guess sounds better.

Great idea!


No, I mean it, if you repost those things with the changes people have proposed I am going to have some business cards made ... please do.

jimmyraythomason
July 16, 2011, 01:47 PM
I like it!

hso
July 16, 2011, 02:08 PM
Folks,

You can make them up with any wording you like and then print them on any color printer onto Avery blank business card sheets.

Nushif
July 16, 2011, 02:22 PM
Durr.

sig232
July 16, 2011, 05:12 PM
Wish I had these when I was in NY.. lol..

Zoogster
July 16, 2011, 05:31 PM
I like them.

Of course what it would remind me of if I was an anti-gunner is that I need to work at making that list longer.
A much longer list of things never done, to increase the prohibited people and reduce how many people can have those horrible firearms.

tmknecht
July 17, 2011, 12:48 AM
^^Word^^

gibson_es
July 17, 2011, 03:32 AM
I believe i will print a handfull when i get my concealed weapkns permit. Good to have just in case.

My old boss called asking.if i can come take a shift. Hes a good guy, and i always have a job there, so i said yes. Its a food delivery job. My first delivery was to a major progressive building. Sings in the parking lot ans building "no firearms on premisses"

I keep one in my vehicle, so i was unsure what to do. I think clarification was needed.

hso
July 17, 2011, 10:19 AM
These only go to retail businesses who post antigunowner signs. Since it is YOUR dollar they want you have the ability to politely and calmly convert them. This is just an "instructional aid" to help you do that.

FourTeeFive
July 18, 2011, 02:49 AM
I like this approach:

http://www.thewilderness.com/storepinnacle/index.php?p=page&page_id=CCW-friendly_AZ_Dining_Guide

basicblur
July 18, 2011, 03:42 AM
Many state 2nd Amendment groups are posting business unfriendly lists.
For VA (http://www.vcdl.org/static/gue.html).

wheelgunslinger
July 18, 2011, 09:53 AM
Yeah, but instead of passively denying them business,this gives you the opportunity to actively help them understand why they aren't getting your business.
And, it puts a face/name/person against a ridiculous Rambo stereotype that most people seem to have about pro-gun folk.

Very useful, imo. Much more so than just a list that people silently use. It's not the quiet wheel that gets the grease.

FourTeeFive
July 18, 2011, 11:01 AM
Yeah, but instead of passively denying them business,this gives you the opportunity to actively help them understand why they aren't getting your business.

If you look at the AZ business list it has a number of them that have changed their policy since being presented with the facts by a gun owner. That is the type of win we're looking for.

wheelgunslinger
July 18, 2011, 11:14 AM
I did look at the list. My position still stands. I think it's more important for individuals to do this than groups.

gibson_es
July 18, 2011, 11:47 AM
Here is for florida

Though, if i read the law right, a sign dont mean crap in florida. If they have a sign, and. arry anyway, no law is broken. If they ask you to leave however, then you must. but sense all we have is concealed carry, chances are they wont know your carrying uless you have to use it in SD. Which would not be illegal, assuming you fallowed the law in your actions.

http://www.floridacarry.org/index.php?view=article&id=34&option=com_content&Itemid=30

thedrewcifur
July 18, 2011, 12:09 PM
i don't spend any money anywhere that won't allow me to open carry my pistol. i love my local wal mart. i once had a manager tell me he feels safer because i'm in his store and am armed. i have only once had a problem there and that was with a customer who cussed me out calling me a "domestic terrorist". he made a big fuss and ended up getting himself kicked out. that is why i love wal mart. i don't have a ccw permit... yet so i have to open carry if i want to be legal.

basicblur
July 18, 2011, 12:51 PM
I did look at the list. My position still stands. I think it's more important for individuals to do this than groups.
Nuttin' wrong with a two-pronged approach!
If you hand the card to a business owner, he may just blow you off as just one customer. While not as direct as the card, I'd be willing to bet the owners of said businesses know they're on the list, and have probably visited the relevant state's 2nd Amendment activist group's website, which they can't blow off as just one customer.
I can pretty much bet the folks on VCDL's gun unfriendly businesses site have been contacted by VCDL in order to get them to rethink their policy.

So...why not do/use both?

CutMan
July 18, 2011, 01:05 PM
Here in Texas, I ignore the signs that aren't the legal 30.06 type. However, I am going to print some of these off. (maybe two or three) I've only run into two signs and one was displayed at 'Whole Foods Market'. It, however wasn't a legal sign. It said 'no guns'. However, I haven't been back since, so the card would have been a great idea, especially since I cold still just walk in and hand it to the manager.

GEM
July 18, 2011, 02:31 PM
If you see a noncompliant sign in TX and then go tell the manager, etc. and then he or she tells you that he or she doesn't want carry - it is my take on the law that you have been personally notified and cannot carry. Even if the sign is no good, you've been told.

mr.scott
July 18, 2011, 02:43 PM
Gem. to be in violation of 30.06 the sign has to be valid. You can be charged under 30.05 if they ask you to leave and you don't.

As far as signs go, make sure you ask them how well the restrictions of guns worked at VT, our Columbine. A sign isn't going to stop anyone intent on commiting crime.
I liken it to a no turn on red sign. There is nothing that will physically force you to comply with that sign.

ElectrikKoolAid
July 18, 2011, 06:13 PM
As requested, I have changed the "No Guns = No Money" education card. It is now formatted as a 4x6 print, which can be printed at any Walmart, Walgreens, CVS, etc. photo kiosk for 15-20 and cut in half for distribution.

http://snoballs.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/no-guns-no-money-2.jpg

The original full-resolution file can be found here (http://snoballs.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/no-guns-no-money-2.jpg).

It doesn't require a hard-sell, or a confrontational discussion to make your point. (Doing so will only reinforce whatever negative stereotypes the business owner already has about "Gun Nuts".)

Is it worth 10 and 2 minutes of your time to RESPECTFULLY educate business owners about who their customers are?

ElectrikKoolAid
July 18, 2011, 06:43 PM
Lists of "Gun UN-friendly businesses" will not likely change anyone's mind about this.

The natural reaction of anyone when they are attacked is to dig in, and become defensive.

Organized boycotts are only effective if the pain of lost sales exceeds the conviction of the owner about the issue. Even if you win, compulsion is never a pretty emotion to swallow. Someone who holds very strong convictions will likely strengthen them further, no matter the cost.

The card above is a way to put a "low-confrontation" spin on presenting your issue in a way that allows the opportunity for the business owner to see not all gun owners are mall-ninjas, psychopaths, or gang-members.

It doesn’t require a hard-sell, or a confrontational discussion, to make your point. The strategy is not to PUSH someone into your way of thinking, but to gently lead them to reconsider how bad theirs is with gentle pulls. (Anyone who has ever worked with a mule will understand the technique.)

You are seeking to put a polite, respectful face on legally-carrying gun owners, nothing more.

Launching into a Second Ammendment lecture, or making fear-mongering about The Zombie Apocalypse will NOT help. (Doing so will only reinforce whatever negative stereotypes the business owner already has about “Gun Nuts”.)

Someone who is shy (like me), could just hand the card over, say something like "I just wanted you to know how this sign affects me, a loyal customer" and leave. (No stressful deep conversation required.)

No, you can not change the world overnight, but you CAN improve your little piece of it, one step at a time!

With the heavy media stereotyping after every gun-related atrocity, is it worth 10 and 2 minutes of your time to RESPECTFULLY educate business owners about who their gun-owning customers really are?

Please help spread the word about this “low-confrontation” education mission to others you know.

basicblur
July 18, 2011, 07:26 PM
The natural reaction of anyone when they are attacked is to dig in, and become defensive.
Some will view the cards as an attack (although they may think you're the only one)-trying to predict a business owner's views/reactions is a crap shoot.
Business owners are just like anyone else-some will let their emotions get the best of them, some will look at the problem from a logical/business point of view-hey, I'm in business to make money, and if this is costing me money...

Organized boycotts are only effective if the pain of lost sales exceeds the conviction of the owner about the issue. Even if you win, compulsion is never a pretty emotion to swallow. Someone who holds very strong convictions will likely strengthen them further, no matter the cost.
Can't speak for other state organizations, but I'm pretty sure VCDL has had numerous contacts with reported non-gun friendly businesses before they're finally put on the list.
If someone has "very strong convictions" (no gun policy), I kinda doubt handing 'em a card is going to sway 'em...

CutMan
July 18, 2011, 11:29 PM
Of course, I would leave if asked. And never go back. (30.05)

However, I am thinking that there are so 'few' businesses in my area of Dallas that are properly signed, that I would rather send a letter that basically says the same thing as the card as to remain anonymous when I do carry in their 'improperly' signed businesses. Letting them know that there sign has no legal merit would NOT be my goal, of course.

Nushif
July 19, 2011, 02:04 AM
Love the new cards!

hso
July 19, 2011, 07:55 AM
I like the idea of incorporating the AZ "bullets" on the back of the card to counter the liability argument. The card should do two things, educate the business that they're not prohibiting guns they're prohibiting carry permit holders and educate them on how their thinking is flawed and serves no purpose. Make it a teaching opportunity instead of an angry confrontation.

Let's stay focused on the idea of a card to provide to businesses and save the CCW-holder friendly/hostile business lists to another day. They have their own plusses and minuses completely different from the OP's idea.

Johannes_Paulsen
July 19, 2011, 09:05 AM
In the spirit of constructive criticism....

I don't like the look of the card.

It sounds defensive. Instead of emphasizing the 'barring legal CCW license holders = loss of money" point, it's a list of things you don't do. And from a PR standpoint, having "guns" mentioned on the same card as "felony", "domestic violence", "illegal drugs", and "fugitive from justice" sounds bad.

And the use of the pistol image with the red slash through it almost makes it look like an anti-gun thing.

Just my two cents.

henschman
July 19, 2011, 12:33 PM
I don't like to in any way support the licensing of concealed carry. I think these cards glorify licensure by saying how good you have to be in order to be granted the "privilege" to bear arms by the government. I wouldn't want to patronize a store that supports concealed carry licensure either, so I don't really care for the amended versions of the signs. They are better than prohibiting all guns on the premises, but still not what I'd like to see. I'd rather try to get them to remove the sign altogether. Having a sign that prohibits the illegal carry of guns is about as stupid as having a sign that says "no illegal robbery allowed."

GEM
July 20, 2011, 12:59 PM
Mr. Scott - if the 30.06 sign is invalid and you tell them and they tell you that they don't want you to carry, that's it. You can't carry. Is that what you are saying?

The sign then becomes irrelevant to you personally.

B1gGr33n
July 20, 2011, 03:56 PM
henschman: I understand your point, but I think that reasoning is beyond the grasp of anyone who would ban firearms.

I do agree that the anti-gun banner on the card is too much. I'd like to see some kind of graphic that catches the eye, but I'd rather it not be something that at a glance could be construed as supporting the anti's. Also, I think the "Hi. I carry a gun." could be a panic inducer. I'd hate to see a someone call the cops in fear after getting one of these cards.

Otherwise, great work ElectrikKoolAid!

hso
July 21, 2011, 01:41 PM
http://aenews.wsu.edu/Nov99AENews/DollarSign.gif

Telling them that they're banning our dollars from their business is the message we're trying to communicate clearly and showing them what they're actually doing is more valuable than the gun/slash symbol in communicating this.

lobo9er
July 21, 2011, 05:00 PM
I think you should make one change to the card.


Hi. I legally carry a gun.

lobo9er
July 21, 2011, 05:01 PM
It first reads like a letter a person might give a bank tellier.

Cluster Bomb
July 22, 2011, 12:59 PM
Here is my cheap'o one i made a lil while ago.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NIKREWe4114/TimeQgOt0xI/AAAAAAAAAEw/P6pdc3orBGA/s800/gunCard.png

Hugo
July 23, 2011, 01:18 PM
The card does seem a bit too confrontational. Better to play it as mellow as possible since some people are very flaky about guns but a mellow approach can help them see they are being foolish. Act calm yet friendly like Carl Sagan who was good at debunking misleading thinking.

Carl Sagan debunking Astrology.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iunr4B4wfDA

Carl Sagan debunking UFO's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAUCr9OorXU

I've noticed many gas stations put up the "no unlicensed concealed carry" signs. Bring that point up with managers. If the places robbed so much that it's cliche like Legal concealed carry, why not your business?

Polite but firm letters to corporate HQ usually gets things changed on most any reasonable problem. They assume you sent a letter but 10+ people who feel the way you do didn't bother. When you vote with your money, companies tend to listen if they are reasonable (most are). Companies do screw up and miss things that they later think, "Boy was that a dumb mistake". Give them one chance, then be ready to take your business elsewhere.

This news show clip makes the point quickly. Yes I know it's been seen, but not by some people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7pGt_O1uM8

If you find a chain of restaurants/stores/malls/etc.... that just puts up those "No unlicensed Concealed weapons" signs, then definitely send them a "thank you for letting me be prepared to defend myself and my family/friends" letter. The more companies wake up to reality and make concealed carry welcome, the better. Anonymous letters if you want, just talk to them.

Of course sometimes the CEO/Manager/owner is an unreasonable fanatic and won't change their mind or even listen to reason. Some people are just flaky. Move on. Then, be ready to find a new place to spend your money.

Hugo
July 23, 2011, 01:21 PM
If they're sane and can see reason they will mellow out. This is probably 50% of the time.

About 10-30% are stuck in their ways and you won't change them. Don't waste much time, just move on. Maybe they will change on their own later. Who knows? Just move on.

These statistics are my own estimates since there is no way to get an accurate survey on this. People lie, often to themselves too.

CutMan
July 24, 2011, 01:57 AM
bare arms= Adjective: (of a person or part of the body) Not clothed or covered.
Verb: Uncover (a part of the body or other thing) and expose it to view: "he bared his chest".

bear= bear arms
a to carry weapons
b to serve in the armed forces

HankB
July 24, 2011, 07:01 PM
A couple of years ago I was up in the Twin Cities on business, and stayed at a chain hotel that had a "no guns" sign at their restaurant entrance. Now, MN didn't have reciprocity with TX at the time AND for this short trip I had only a carry-on bag, so I was unarmed. But when dining at the free breakfast buffet (served poolside) a man and woman approached me and identified themselves as hotel executives for the chain, and asked how I liked the hotel.

I told them the hotel was fine, but not the restaurant. They said "The remodeling?" I replied "No, the sign. I met with colleagues last night for dinner and rather than eat here, we noticed your sign and decided to respect your wishes by taking our business elsewhere . . . which I plan to do next time I'm in town."

We had a very cordial conversation, they agreed that the sign had no useful purpose . . . and by that afternoon the sign was GONE. (It had been glued on, so they had some repairs to do on the sheetrock.)

Before I left, I made a point of finding the guy and thanking him for his responsiveness.

langenc
July 24, 2011, 07:47 PM
As far as making the business cards-- couple years ago a gentleman here in MI made up several thousand.
He asked thet if you wanted 50-75 send a few bucks and a stamped envelope. Hed stick them in your supplied envelope and in a few days youd have a good supply, maybe enough for you, wife and couple friends, depending on how much $$ you sent. Many would do this but never go to their print shop and get couple hundred. Cheaper this way-way cheaper.

ElectrikKoolAid
July 24, 2011, 10:45 PM
I don't know...

I can only relate my experience of telling one shopkeeper I had a CCW permit and his sign was forcing me to choose unattractive options. He listened, thought about it, and changed his policy once he understood the realities and the financial consequences.

He stated the "no guns" stickers were part of an anti-gun literature scare package that was distributed to businesses by attractive young women shortly after NC passed the concealed carry law in the late 1990s.

He said he never really thought about it after that, and it was just kind of "there", like the Visa/Mastercard and Chamber of Commerce stickers on his front door.

I didn't live here then, but I've noticed most of those signs (that are not on government facilites) are kind of old and weather-beaten.

Since the "Death and Bloodshed in the streets" never materialized as promised by the anti-gun crowd, perhaps allowing people to revisit their options is a smart move for the pro-2nd amendment crowd.

While I respect the work of NRA and others, buying politicians and funding lawsuits is only converting the faithful.

People in the middle of the road probably could care less, or at worst are easy to convince in a low-key discussion.

Just my humble opinion, with double your money back if dissatisfied.

Dr-Science
July 24, 2011, 11:30 PM
I am not taking any sides here, but what is the reason the stores are not allowing guns in? Is it because they are afraid of being robbed by those guns, or is it because some customers may become disturbed if they were to see a glimpse / outline of a CCW? If they don't allow it, nothing to it but to go shop elsewhere. What works and what doesn't work will hopefully work itself out through a process of social evolution.

popper
July 27, 2011, 04:54 PM
This IS the first place to start. You'd be surprised to see who is on the list. Get rid of them and state and local WILL respond.

Double Naught Spy
July 27, 2011, 06:10 PM
I am not taking any sides here, but what is the reason the stores are not allowing guns in? Is it because they are afraid of being robbed by those guns, or is it because some customers may become disturbed if they were to see a glimpse / outline of a CCW?

Good question. The pro-gun stand from non-shop owners is that the shop owners must be trying to keep bad guys from using guns in the shops. That could not be further from the truth. No shop owner actually believes that a no guns sign will keep them from getting robbed by a person with a gun. Telling them that real criminals won't respect their signs isn't news to them. Why the gun community often thinks that shop owners are trying to preclude criminals from having guns is beyond me.

The shop owners are trying to reduce the liability of that which they can control, the law abiding gun owners, some of whome are idiots who seem to have a need to fiddle with their guns while out in public. This is a very definite minority, but one that makes the news all too often, sometimes shooting themselves or others in the process of their stupid actions, sometimes just having an ND. Even worse, there are those that when spotted become confrontational when they are personally asked to remove the gun from the premises, make a scene, and otherwise cause problems for the store.

It is people like this that shoot themselves in the testicles that are truly bothersome to store owners...
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2011994648_accident31m.html

This ND injured 4!!!
http://www.usacarry.com/negligent-discharge-at-orlando-restaurant-over-lack-of-holster/

Carl's Jr. lost a toilet to an ND...
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-420128.html
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=5315514

Walmart ND...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20100409/us-odd-gun-discharge-arrest/

Never mind all the NDs that happen at gun shows with alarming regularity despite most gun shows not allowing loaded weapons.

Then there are those busineses that sometimes have to involve confrontational people. They don't want some legally armed yahoo getting upset and stupidly drawing a gun out of anger...ala road rage stupidity.

GEM
July 28, 2011, 01:06 PM
DNS is correct. The law review articles against allowing stress the liability from the legal gun owner doing a bad thing.

bcb2
October 25, 2011, 12:19 AM
"Officially Credentialed Firearms ONLY!" with a shield would be a start. We can illustrate the Bill of Rights later. My .02

oneounceload
October 25, 2011, 12:36 AM
Here is my cheap'o one i made a lil while ago.



I hope you fixed the typos in there first

Cards are nice but unnecessary - ust tell the owner/manager

Bobson
October 25, 2011, 01:17 AM
Seems like a great idea to me, but I wonder how many businesses would actually change their policy. Just an assumption really, but I would think most "big" businesses (businesses that are nationwide, or maybe restaurants that are franchises) would have the "no firearm" policy at the corporate level, which would mean individual store/restaurant managers wouldn't be allowed to change the policy, even if they didn't agree with it. Just a thought.

hatt
October 25, 2011, 12:27 PM
I noticed your "No Guns Allowed" sign. What I didn't notice was the qualified armed security officer you should have provided to ensure my safety while patronizing your business unarmed. These circumstances have resulted in your business being potentially too dangerous for my family and I to visit and we have been forced to take our business elsewhere.

Or something like that.

Thedub88
October 25, 2011, 01:25 PM
I made a version of the cards for Massachusetts. If your from Mass, PM me your email, and I'll send it to you

Cluster Bomb
October 25, 2011, 04:36 PM
Most people around my area are hunters, and we are welcomed with smiles.

ForumSurfer
October 25, 2011, 05:32 PM
No, you can not change the world overnight, but you CAN improve your little piece of it, one step at a time!

Yep, I did something similar with a local business that I wanted to frequent more often. I fully expected nothing to happen. Wouldn't you know it, it worked. I was shocked. I also felt really, really obligated to go and buy something from the shop.

Strykervet
October 25, 2011, 07:45 PM
Here is my cheap'o one i made a lil while ago.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NIKREWe4114/TimeQgOt0xI/AAAAAAAAAEw/P6pdc3orBGA/s800/gunCard.png
This one is too confrontational. More like an ultimatum. The one the OP posted says the exact same thing but isn't confrontational and doesn't sound like an ultimatum. It is simple, to the point, and educational. It says, very simply, that the potential armed robber isn't likely to oblige their no firearms policy, but that permit holders will --and the trade off to disallowing them, the ones that are willing to oblige, is to simply shop elsewhere. The bottom line, "how much do you know about your other shoppers" is great.

Seldom does short, educational, non-confrontational and efficient idea to change policies regarding this come along. I think it is genius, and the fact it costs nothing more than printer ink and paper is great.

Perhaps making an alternative sign for them to post would be a good idea too, but everyone would have to get on the same page. You could hand out the index card or whatever with the OP's message (the color one works better in my opinion) and along with it, an alternative sign. You should find and join all your local shooting sites and seed this as much as possible, get everyone's opinion in your state, and settle on an alternative no-firearms *except* sign.

I don't know what kind of sign you'd need, I think offering one would increase the chance of them actually changing their policy, in particular with small businesses that don't have these decisions made ten states away in some board room. But the OP's idea is ingenious, and in combination with alternative signs to post in the window, I think you could make some change. Once one starts, they will all follow suit, they want the money more than they care about you carrying or not. I can tell you for a fact that Starbucks will be a good place to start. They are carry friendly, very carry friendly here in their home state. Big deal about my local one on Opencarry.org and the resulting good that came out of it (Starbucks stood behind folks legally carrying and the cops got educated as to what the law says and were told not to harrass folks when some nut calls saying "I see a gun!")

I'm lucky in that I live in a state where a business can't prevent me from carrying. Only bars, big outdoor concerts (?) and schools are off limits (but you can carry if dropping off or picking up) local and state buildings with restricted areas must provide a check-in, and federal buildings, they are off limits. The city of Seattle tried to make all city property, which includes all the parks and a lot of other real-estate into no firearms zones. Since it violated our very simple state law, it fell through and wasted money just like everyone told the mayor it would.

When it comes to no firearms stickers around here, unless in those places above (which I rarely frequent save the VA hospital and post office) I just ignore them. They are rare outside federal buildings here anyway. I conceal carry, but I'm not too fastidious about keeping it from showing if the wind blows my shirt or jacket open, or if it prints if I stoop down. If I'm in an anti establishment for some reason, the worst they can do is ask me to leave, and if I refuse, I can get charged with misdemeanor trespassing. Never been in this situtation though, and I've been here over ten years. If I were asked to leave, I would, never come back, and also post about it on all my local sites.

But perhaps having that card would be a good idea here too as then they'd know why all of a sudden business dropped off.

Great idea, OP, just great. You really need to go onto your local shooting sites and, oh yeah, go to your local shooting clubs. Not just ranges, the clubs. They'll really be into it. Gun shops and such might be a good idea to advertise the idea and hand out cards too.

wannabeagunsmith
October 26, 2011, 03:32 PM
I like those signs. Good idea.

two gun charlie
November 18, 2011, 02:17 AM
well here in my sunny part of the world every second shop has those signs , and we all simply ignore them :D , because most carry concealed , however I have noticed the odd open carry cowboy simply ignoring the signs as well , and nobody in the shop seemed to notice :scrutiny:. I think those signs are just silly and a waste of money , they could rather put up a sign stating that if you plan to rob this shop be warned that many of our patrons carry bigger guns than you and know how to use them
(and are itching to shoot a thug like you ):neener:

Steve Raacke
November 24, 2011, 05:11 AM
I don't Conceal Carry so the way the cards are worded don't apply to me or others who practice permitless Open Carry.
Also, I've rarely encountered problems with business owners and have only been asked to leave one resturant (Cici's Pizza) by management. There was no sign on the door. I doubt a card like this would make much of a difference.

lady32
November 26, 2011, 02:21 PM
I am fortunate to live in an area where this is not much of an issue. People come here to hunt and most locals own at least one if not more firearms - for hunting and personal protection. I was surprised when I recently encountered a sign in a nearby town that read "Please unload your weapon before entering the premises." Wouldn't this be the same as stating "No weapons allowed"???

Wanderling
November 26, 2011, 11:32 PM
I'm afraid there's one point missing here - some businesses do it not because they are afraid of you carrying, but because they're worried that a person carrying on premises, if noticed, would scare off non-carrying customers (who usually constitute a far greater majority of customers).

Perhaps the right approach, before handing over this card, is to humbly and politely ask them to explain their policy to you, specifically what is it they're afraid of or are trying to achieve. I would think that a lot of these signs were really meant as "no open carrying", "no printing your weapon" type. Just my $.02...

Neverwinter
November 27, 2011, 03:55 PM
I'm afraid there's one point missing here - some businesses do it not because they are afraid of you carrying, but because they're worried that a person carrying on premises, if noticed, would scare off non-carrying customers (who usually constitute a far greater majority of customers).

Perhaps the right approach, before handing over this card, is to humbly and politely ask them to explain their policy to you, specifically what is it they're afraid of or are trying to achieve. I would think that a lot of these signs were really meant as "no open carrying", "no printing your weapon" type. Just my $.02...
This is the unfortunate reality of the issue. There are people who are afraid of guns, and their patronage will be influenced by their perception of the presence of guns. The actual presence of guns isn't the primary concern for them; they walk past CCWs every day. If the sign were to explicitly mention "no open carrying" or "no printing your weapon", it would still not address the fear of their customers because it has an acknowledgement of the presence of guns. They want to project an image of a "safe" store where no firearms are present.

For the states in which the sign is not legally binding, the possibility of the purpose of image control becomes more likely. CCW holders can continue to carry, and only face being threatened with trespassing.

Steve Raacke
November 30, 2011, 06:33 AM
This is the unfortunate reality of the issue. There are people who are afraid of guns, and their patronage will be influenced by their perception of the presence of guns. The actual presence of guns isn't the primary concern for them; they walk past CCWs every day. If the sign were to explicitly mention "no open carrying" or "no printing your weapon", it would still not address the fear of their customers because it has an acknowledgement of the presence of guns. They want to project an image of a "safe" store where no firearms are present.
And is sadly a reality that those of us who practice Open Carry must acknowledge and deal with regularly. It is important that we carry ourselves to a high standard when out in public with our firearms so as to minimize some of these fears and prevent negative encounters.

Prophet
December 1, 2011, 02:39 AM
These are cool. I've threatened to print a couple of these for my wallet, but I've never come across any buildings other than federal establishments that banned the carry of firearms here in southern PA. Must stink to live in an area where such signs are prevalent.

flatlander937
December 13, 2011, 10:38 PM
I know this is an older topic but I'm surprised you guys haven't tried to reverse the situation to prove a point:

For another spin on "educating" a business...

1) Ask them if they know of any "anti-gun" folk who have ever NOT gone into a restaurant or similar place of business because they DON'T have a "No guns" sign at the entrance? I'm willing to bet they will say zero.

2) Inform them that by prohibiting the carrying of legally owned firearms into their establishment, they are turning away potential customers who may really want to go there.

3) So given that there are restaurants that have stickers in the window prohibiting guns, and those that don't have stickers... the ones that don't have stickers will obviously have more traffic... if all else is equal.

4) People who legally carry a firearm do so in a professional manner, so as to not draw attention(when open carrying), and those who concealed carry legally you will probably never even know they have a firearm on them. The fact is... without the sticker, guns are "out of sight, out of mind" and so even if someone is carrying, customers will likely not be any wiser.



I'm sure somebody could take that and word it slightly better, but hopefully you guys get the point I'm trying to make as an additional "reason" to use in educating business owners.

rsilvers
December 13, 2011, 11:25 PM
I can't say I have ever seen a sign on a business in MA. The local mall does have a list of rules, and "no weapons" is one of them - but we can ignore such signs as they carry no force of law. Worst case is, if somehow they knew, they could ask you to leave, and if you refused, you would be trespassing. I feel bad for you in states where the signs do carry force of law. Also here, we can carry in bars - including while drinking, and in churches, sports stadiums, police stations, etc. Only schools, court houses, and federal buildings are not allowed.

Arcticfox
December 13, 2011, 11:46 PM
I work in NC, and inexplicably, the sign at work that prohibited "weapons", is down now.

Double Naught Spy
December 14, 2011, 10:24 AM
I know this is an older topic but I'm surprised you guys haven't tried to reverse the situation to prove a point:

For another spin on "educating" a business...

You bring up some interesting points, but I think you aren't seeing the business owner's perspective.

1) Ask them if they know of any "anti-gun" folk who have ever NOT gone into a restaurant or similar place of business because they DON'T have a "No guns" sign at the entrance? I'm willing to bet they will say zero.
Given that they aren't trying to gain customers with the sign, this point won't matter to them.

2) Inform them that by prohibiting the carrying of legally owned firearms into their establishment, they are turning away potential customers who may really want to go there.
They know this already, but don't want the guns the potential customers will bring. Business owners fully realize that any sort of exclusionary policy will exclude some customers.

3) So given that there are restaurants that have stickers in the window prohibiting guns, and those that don't have stickers... the ones that don't have stickers will obviously have more traffic... if all else is equal.
In theory, yes, but in reality this has not produced a bottom line visible effect. In part this is because such a tremendously small part of the population are active gun carriers and many of the pro gun folks who don't carry aren't dissuaded by such signs.

4) People who legally carry a firearm do so in a professional manner, so as to not draw attention(when open carrying), and those who concealed carry legally you will probably never even know they have a firearm on them. The fact is... without the sticker, guns are "out of sight, out of mind" and so even if someone is carrying, customers will likely not be any wiser.

And yet business owners see the news where people legally carrying firearms have ND inside of various businesses. A few of us aren't being very professional about how we carry guns and this is quite bothersome to many business owners.

flatlander937
December 14, 2011, 01:46 PM
Points taken... thanks for that!

Neverwinter
December 14, 2011, 02:28 PM
You bring up some interesting points, but I think you aren't seeing the business owner's perspective.

And yet business owners see the news where people legally carrying firearms have ND inside of various businesses. A few of us aren't being very professional about how we carry guns and this is quite bothersome to many business owners.How many of those cases are there? If this is an issue with high visibility events with very low probability, education does seem to be the correct description for convincing owners why they shouldn't post the signs.

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hso
December 14, 2011, 05:27 PM
Neverwinter makes a good point that the risk needs to be addressed when a manager/owner brings up a recent report of an ND or some other firearm use. That incident has a high severity level even though we know that the frequency of occurrence is very very low.

Perhaps the answer to their question is another question? "Certainly that was very bad, but can you tell me of another incident like that in the same place? These are so rare as to be less likely than someone driving a car into the front of your business and injuring or killing a customer. You don't worry about that happening because you're familiar with the idea and it occurs so infrequently that it isn't a realistic worry. Having a carry permit holder have an accident is even rarer."

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