Another Glock Kaboom


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GW Staar
July 16, 2011, 02:41 PM
A new case. Unsupported case head strikes again.

Reported on AR15.com (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/347650_Glock_Kaboom__My_rounds__need_help.html)

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beeenbag
July 16, 2011, 02:53 PM
Call it what you will but being handloads using titegroup and the looks of the case I would bet next years salary it was a double charge.

gamestalker
July 16, 2011, 03:13 PM
Headspace might be the problem now, but I'm with GW Staar, a double charge indeed.
I have been criticized time and time again because I won't use powders other than the slowest of burning. Not only do the slow burning powders typically produce some of the best all around high performance, but they also make it nearly impossible to double charge. And if the spilled powder should inadvertantly get over looked, many slow burner's won't produce excessive pressures of the type that KB a firearm.
Even the most competent handloader who checks and double checks his work can make a mistake, were human. So why not eliminate or reduce one of the most dangerous and distructive of mistakes to a minimum by using a powder that won't allow a double charge to be easily over looked. I realize not everyone wants loads that are full house, and many also load using lead too. But those loads come at a price and risk that in my opinion, is non negotiable.
Thank God no one was killed or seriously injured. The gun can be replaced.

GW Staar
July 16, 2011, 03:17 PM
I'm not calling it anything. .45's don't have quite the same rep as .40 in a Glock, so you may very well be right.....maybe.

These things got my attention:
1. cases were used 5 or 6 times.
2. It blew out the feed ramp where typically it happens for unsupported brass.

Double-charge or not....it found the weak spot down the ramp and into the magazine. A double-charge has done, can do a lot more damage than that.

Another post in the tread talked about a .45 Gold Cup double-charge Kaboom many years ago....so it can happen to any gun with a double-charge.

I would be careful with brass shot out of an unsupported chamber too many times tho. May buy you a similar experience.

beeenbag
July 16, 2011, 03:30 PM
Yeah it found the weak spot. Unless the chamber itself explodes the only other place to go is backwards somewhere and I would prefer it to be down the magwell.

PO2Hammer
July 16, 2011, 04:46 PM
Your url is http://Another%20Glock%20Kaboom, not a valid link.

SlamFire1
July 16, 2011, 04:58 PM
People who think a cartridge case is supposed to carry load are sadly mistaken.

It is a gas seal, if it is not supported it will blow.

GaryL
July 16, 2011, 05:08 PM
Have a really good friend (lives several states away) who was at a range with a local friend who was shooting a brand new Glock in 45acp that had a kaboom. My friend was spotting for the guy, and saw the first few rounds go down range and strike the target, and said all the rounds sounded right, except the last one was more like a poofftt, and the next thing he knows is his buddy is looking at his bleeding hand like WTH just happened? Said it was a classic moment in retrospect, as no serious damage was done to the shooter. Anyway, they are both engineers, and were both convinced it was an out of battery problem.

My buddy has loaded several hundreds of thousands of rounds, and has had a couple double charge kabooms in 45 acp in steel framed pistols over the years. He said it was obvious they were double charged, blew the mag out of the gun, so he slapped another mag in and kept right on shooting. As far as I know, he has switched to slower powders. He said he did, but I don't see him often enough to know if that's 100% true.

oneounceload
July 16, 2011, 05:15 PM
hmmmmmm, 20+ years of reloading for a Glock and no issues

Sounds like operator error

THe Dove
July 16, 2011, 05:24 PM
^^^^^^^

The Dove

bds
July 16, 2011, 07:32 PM
20+ years of reloading for a Glock and no issues

Sounds like operator error
16+ years of reloading for Glocks and 250,000+ rounds of 9mm/40S&W/45ACP in various Glocks and I have not experienced problems. HOWEVER, there are issues to consider.

KaBooms happen not just in Glocks (KBs existed long before Glocks and plenty of 1911s have blown up and I personally have seen many other brand KBs) and I have seen them in higher pressure 40S&W and lower pressure 45ACP also. Most of the cases involved suspected double charges and rest were probable mixed up powders/load data that led to overcharges.

One of many reasons why I endorse the use of Lone Wolf barrels in Glocks is this. If you use mixed range brass (and most of us do), you have no idea how many times the brass has been reloaded (some of us tumble polish our brass until they have mirror shine so you can't tell :D) or how hot/over max they were loaded to. When we run across bulged "Glocked" brass, some will recommend the use of Lee FCD "Bulge Buster"/Redding G-RX to push-through size the base of the bulged cases, but the repeated bulging and resizing of case walls will just add to the weakening of the brass. Eventually, high pressure gas may escape through weakened case wall if support is not there and overpressure situation exists. I will say that for 9mm/40S&W Glock barrels, Gen3 and newer provide comparable case base support at the ramp area compared to other factory barrels. HOWEVER, 40 S&W Glock chambers are still more generous/wider, allowing bulges to occur about 2/3 way down the case neck (see comparison picture below). In comparison, Lone Wolf barrels have very tight chambers (tightest I know) and won't allow bulging of cases. It is my opinion that cases not bulging extends case life and minimize weakening of brass. Besides, resizing spent LW cases takes significantly less effort.

I have reloaded and shot matches with G22s and a lot of Montana Gold jacketed bullets using high range load data of W231. My Glock cases show no bulging or just slight bulging that gets resized with regular Lee carbide resizing dies (no, I don't need to push-through resize with FCD). If I use max/over max loads (can you say 9mm major?), I prefer to use Lone Wolf 40-9 conversion barrels with thicker chamber/barrel or fully supported LW 40S&W barrel for extra level of insurance.

Below are comparison pictures of my Gen3 Glock and LW barrels.

Gen3 Glock 27 barrel shows better case base support at the ramp area than Gen1/Gen2 Glocks of the past, but is still very wide at the case base at the ramp area and around the case (2 O'clock to 10 O'clock). In comparison, LW 40S&W barrel shows full support of case base, especially at the ramp area and much tighter all around the case.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=145721&stc=1&d=1310854650


Over the years, I have not witnessed any 9mm Glock KB. This picture may explain why. Gen3 Glock 17 barrel on the left shows exposed case base at the ramp area, but the rest of the chamber is tight against the case. In comparison, LW 40-9mm conversion barrel shows better case base support at the ramp area and tight support around the case. The tighter support of 9mm Glock chamber (even there's exposed case base at the ramp area) may minimize repeated bulging and reduction of case during resizing that may weaken the brass.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=145722&stc=1&d=1310854650


I usually recommend to people that reload for Glocks that if they see bulges in cases to reduce their powder charge or change powder. Can LW barrels extend case life and possibly prevent a Glock KB? I can't say for certain but have done tests of once-fired 9mm/40S&W cases in Lone Wolf barrels with mid to high range load data of W231/HP-38. Even after 50 reloadings, I have not gotten case failure. I may do a test to see how many times I can reload before a case actually fails.

diriel
July 16, 2011, 08:19 PM
Obviously I am new to site,
@BDS,
Thank you for your informative post! My mentor uses Bullseye for many of his different pistols. I double charged my semi custom 1911 ONCE, and I decided right there to never, not ever, use a powder that is capable of double charging in any type of firearm. Hey, Crap Happens! If you shoot 2-3k rounds a month like I Used To with my old .45 auto 1911 semi customised Norinco, then it just makes sense to me to take adequate precautions. Me and the 1911 both survived, but that was one day at the range that was not fun, as I am one of those anal retentive types :) I just could not quit thinking about that *BANG*..."oh crap what just happened?"

Nice to read such a well reasoned and informative post as your is BDS.
Gary

bluetopper
July 16, 2011, 09:35 PM
Titegroup has blown up more guns than any powder I know of, even many 500 S&W Magnums.

oneounceload
July 16, 2011, 10:11 PM
Most of the cases involved suspected double charges and rest were probable mixed up powders/load data that led to overcharges.

Again, that means Operator Error

jfrey
July 16, 2011, 10:48 PM
That is the main reason I load with Unique powder. A double charge in a 9mm case will definately make a mess and you should notice it if you are paying proper attention. I also use an auto indexing progressive press which will also cut down on it.

GLOOB
July 16, 2011, 11:39 PM
A double charge of Unique will make a mess in luger, alright. With 124 jacketed bullets, I load 'em almost all the way to the top. To fit more than a 1.1x overcharge I'd have to double compress the powder.

Here's something I tried before. Google Unique + overcharge/doublecharge/kaboom. Good luck finding anything.

Oathkeeper1775
July 17, 2011, 01:33 AM
Is there a stand alone document that list powders on their rate of buring that one could point me to?

ReloaderFred
July 17, 2011, 01:49 AM
Here is the link to the new burn rate chart: http://loaddata.com/articles/detail.cfm?articleID=35

Hope this helps.

Fred

GW Staar
July 17, 2011, 04:19 AM
In spite of my poor stutter start this thread has turned out as I hoped, informative.

Glocks latest incarnations of the .40 and .45 models seem to have better case support. That's got to be good. It won't help a double-charge, but it will help brass to last longer and perhaps not fail in a painful way.:rolleyes:

Reloading for Glocks still require extra care, mostly because of the unconventional rifling, that many think causes more leading than conventional rifling while using non-jacketed bullets. Excessive pressure from a leaded barrel is one of several common Glock kaboom theories. It would be nice if someone trustworthy and not connected to Glock or his enemies, would do a scientific study to test that theory.

Case setback (from chambering a particular round over and over) is another theory. So don't keep the same round at the top of the magazine....shoot it rather than rechamber it over and over.

One thing is sure. Glocks are accurate ultra-reliable handguns taylor-made for police work using factory loads with jacketed or plated bullets. The other sure thing, is that those safe and accurate loads can be duplicated by careful reloaders, as long as compromised cases are not used, nor bullets used that Mr. Glock did not design for. OAL and bullet/case tension are also factors for safety.

People are right when they say any gun can Kaboom. Glocks just happen to have the dubious statistic of having more examples on the internet to read about.;) Reminds me of the Corsair fighter plane in WW2. The US navy was ready to scrap it, because their pilots kept crashing them on take off. They gave them to the Marines and the Royal Navy. The Royal Navy took all they could get (they needed carrier fighters bad), and what do you know, they learned how to fly them. No more accidents....the Navy took another look....the rest is history.

That's what I suggest: We need to learn from the mistakes we read about that caused kabooms and learn to reload for them correctly.

To you guys who have been reloading for them without problems for years: how about sharing your recipes that work over and over. (bullet, case, powder) The rest of us can use that info to learn to "fly".....I think that's why we are all here.:)

beeenbag
July 17, 2011, 10:15 AM
for 9mm, I use 5.3g Unique under a 124g plated bullet, with CCI primers. Its a mild target load but is the most accurate load I have developed for it.

jmorris
July 17, 2011, 10:24 AM
I have or have had Glocks in every caliber except 45 gap and some have fired nothing except reloads, not one KB. I have used Tite group for 45, 40, 10mm, 38spl/357 and 9MM again never a KB. I do pay attention to what I am doing when loading.

Blaming any gun or powder for the reloaders irresponsibility is a good way to repeat the mistake as you rid yourself of acountability. Some folks need a Smokey the bear moment. "Only you can prevent KB's."

RandyP
July 17, 2011, 10:43 AM
This is copied from the referenced AR15.com thread posted by 1911smith and IMHO says it all, NOT a Glock kaboom, a neglectful reloader kaboom:

"Glock, Titegroup, 550B. The perfect prelude to a blowup.

This ought to piss a lot of people off. O'Well. I find truth to be the best medicine for what ails you.

Glocks don't survive ka-booms well, your lucky case head gave out before pressure could have built in chamber or what could have happened, would look like Wingman's picture.

45acp brass used in any pistol should last a lifetime. I loose more brass to being lost than lost to cracks at case mouth, 2 to 3 maybe per year.

Titegroup is the worst powder choice in the event of double charge as it's unforgiving.

A press that doesn't auto advance such as a Dillon 550 is a double charge in the making without a vigil eye and keen sense of what's going on at every stage on your press.

I can guaran-double-tee ya this is a double charge. No ifs, ands or buts about it. If your going to insure it never happens again you need to own it.

Since I load with one I can tell you how this happened, or present a scenario or two.

Scenario 1) Primer arm failed to deliver a primer, rather than pulling arm back to load primer you might have pulled handle resulting in double charge.

Scenario 2) There was a distraction and attention was focused else where. Having forgot exactly what stage in loading progression, case mouth was presented twice for drop. It's easier done that most of us will admit too.

The cure... an eyeball in every case before seating bullet. In my case with RL450. I first check to see if there's powder in case before seating bullet and then check to insure powder was dropped before advancing press to seat bullet. You might think this to be redundant. Once in a habit these two processes happen in two quick glances as you manually index press.

You can debate this is a Glock issue until the cows come home and the rooster crows. This is a reloader issue. Plain and Simple.

I've loaded hundreds of thousands of 45acp rounds and what's pictured doesn't happen inside a 45acp case with 4.5 grains of Titegroup. In fact, I highly doubt that would have happened with 5.5 grains Titegroup with a 230 grain bullet.


P.S. eta, ie and more..... I would pull every last bullet loaded in that last batch, if'in it were me.

One more thought and observation. When I see powder in cases at station two and three BEFORE seating bullet..... The show stops right there and buttons are pulled and powder is emptied from brass. Period."

GaryL
July 17, 2011, 10:51 AM
I know it's hard to fathom, but some guns can fire while slightly out of battery. It's not typical or common, but it can happen.

35 Whelen
July 17, 2011, 11:07 AM
Hmmm....Think I'll stick with my old Tried-and-True Colt Gov't Model .45. No special instructions or things to watch for. Just load and shoot.....and shoot...and shoot....and shoot...

35W

oneounceload
July 17, 2011, 11:13 AM
To you guys who have been reloading for them without problems for years: how about sharing your recipes that work over and over. (bullet, case, powder) The rest of us can use that info to learn to "fly".....I think that's why we are all here

Off the top of my head, I use either Unique or Universal Clays with a 124 bullet - either plated or jacketed, sp primer, mixed brass. IIRC, the charge is somewhere between 4.5 and 5 grains (my notebook isn't handy at the moment), but it is a published load and NOT a max load. I have found over 30 years of loading rifle, handgun, and shotgun, that what is the most accurate in my guns has always tended to be a mid-range load.

To me, velocity without accuracy is a waste of components and time

bds
July 17, 2011, 11:20 AM
To you guys who have been reloading for them without problems for years: how about sharing your recipes that work over and over. (bullet, case, powder) The rest of us can use that info to learn to "fly".....I think that's why we are all here.
I started out match shooting 1911 and Sig 226 using various powders (Bullseye, Clays, W231, Universal, WSF and HS6). Although I pushed and tested the max load data limits with them (traditional land/groove rifling), when I transitioned to Glock 17 and later Glock 22 for match shooting, I did not want to shoot max loads in them all the time as I used mixed headstamp range brass with unknown reload/powder charge history (The higher than published load data velocities out of Glock barrels with hexagonal rifling had me worried that for some reason, Glock barrels were generating higher chamber pressures and I wanted some "head room" to buffer in case I got some pressure spikes - better safe than sorry).

Since G22 with 155/180 gr jacketed Montana Gold bullets easily met the power factor without using near max load data, I settled with W231 and have used it ever since. Many match shooters transitioned to Titegroup for higher pressure 9mm and 40S&W and I witnessed several guns blow up at the range (because of the narrow load range of Titegroup, I recommend new reloaders start out with broader load range W231/HP-38).

For reloads in Glocks, I have used W231/HP-38 with start to high range load data that will reliably cycle the slide (below are load data used in my Gen3 Glocks and factory barrels with mixed range brass and Winchester SP/LP primers - your results may vary).

9mm (1.125" - 1.135" OAL):
115 gr jacketed Winchester/Montana Gold RN (.355"): 4.8 gr - any less and won't reliably cycle the stiff recoil springs in new Glocks, especially subcompacts (you can try lower charges as long as you have reliable slide cycling)

124 gr jacketed MG/Rainier plated RN (.355"): 4.4-4.6 gr - heavier bullet will reliably cycle the slide with lower charges

124 gr Berry's plated RN (.356"): 4.1-4.3 gr - Berry's plated bullets are sized larger than jacketed bullets and I use lead load data.

125 gr Missouri Bullet lead RN (.356"): 4.0-4.3 gr (I inspect the factory Glock barrel every 200-300 rounds or so for fouling/leading build up and clean as necessary)

40 S&W (1.125" OAL):
155 gr jacketed Montana Gold FP (.400"): 5.3-5.7 gr

165 gr jacketed MG/PowerBond/Rainier plated FP (.400"): 4.8-5.0 gr

180 gr jacketed MG/PowerBond/Rainier plated FP (.400"): 4.1-4.6 gr (I have used Rainier plated with 3.8-4.0 gr charge for accurate training load that reliably cycle the slide)

180 gr Berry's plated FP (.401"): 3.8-4.3 gr - Reduced load for larger diameter bullet

180 gr Missouri Bullet lead FP (.401"): 3.8-4.3 gr (I inspect the factory Glock barrel every 200-300 rounds or so for fouling/leading build up and clean as necessary)

Bovice
July 17, 2011, 11:35 AM
Lots of bashing on titegroup... That's not very nice. I used to use titegroup for my pistol reloads until I decided I liked universal better. But if I had double-charged with titegroup, it would be plainly visible when I put the bullet on the case to be seated. I was loading at the bottom of the range for titegroup/165 grain jacketed at 4.6 grains. Even at this charge weight, a double would be easy to catch.

My charge weight of universal is 5.3 grains... If I double that, it almost entirely fills my case. No way to miss it.

It has everything to do with the person who loaded the rounds and nothing to do with the powder.

bds
July 17, 2011, 11:53 AM
Not bashing Titegroup (I actually like the powder as it produces very accurate loads - why would so many match shooters use it?). It is good for making power factor for match shooting but we have a lot of new reloaders here and not what I would recommend for those just starting out. It does not offer new reloaders much "head room" to buffer against pressure spikes at max/over max charges.

Once a new reloader is experienced with verifying actual accuracy of powder charges, I would then recommend Titegroup. I have come across new reloaders who "thought" they were getting X.X grains of powder only to find that they were off as much as .3-.5+ gr off when I verified the powder charges. If they were using max load data, they would be overcharging their loads at shorter than published load data to feed/chamber in their pistols (some had such loose neck tensions that bullets would seat deeper when chambered further increasing the chamber pressure).

For this thread (Pistol KaBoom, not just Glock KB) and this other thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=603357), I am just interested in safe reloading practices for new reloaders and hopefully prevent future KBs.

Bovice
July 17, 2011, 12:10 PM
If you can't get your powder charges to be consistent, you shouldn't be reloading at all. That much has nothing to do with experience level. How does knowing how to use a simple scale and adjusting your powder measure only come after being an "experienced" reloader?

bds
July 17, 2011, 12:16 PM
I didn't post that you needed to be an "experienced" reloader, just that you needed to be "experienced" to accurately verify powder charges. This can be accomplished in less than an hour, with proper direction/instruction to properly zero/calibrate your scale (verify with check weights) and weigh your powder charges for consistency and accuracy.

Once a new reloader is experienced with verifying actual accuracy of powder charges

Bovice
July 17, 2011, 07:47 PM
Right... How is scale calibration a big issue? I use a digital scale and it takes less than a minute to calibrate after I've turned it on. The proper use of a scale is a prerequisite to reloading, regardless of what kind of powder is being used. I still don't see the problem using titegroup or any "fast burning" powder.

If you're being ignorant and not verifying your charge weight and get a kaboom, that's your own fault.

If you're purposely trying to hot-rod your rounds and you have a kaboom, that's your own fault.

If you're not paying attention and double charge a case, that's your fault. It's not difficult to look down into the case right before you seat the bullet. If it's double charged, you will know it. It won't look right. If you're too lazy to do that, the hornady powder cop is a nice tool to have. It won't tell you exactly how much is in there, but it will definitely tell you when you've got a double charge or a zero charge situation.

Titegroup for 40 S&W (since we're talking about Glock .40 kabooms) has a range of 4.6 to 5.1 for the 165 grain jacketed bullet, at the shortest end of the OAL range 1.125". Using a powder measure/hopper, you should be able to stay within 0.1 grains of your intended charge. Why would you want to go all the way up to 5.1, anyway? Regardless of the risk of possibly dropping 5.2 grains and being overloaded, the fastest/highest pressure load is hardly going to be the most accurate. I had awesome results with using only 4.6 grains out to 50 yards. Anyway, with a charge range of 0.5 grains any reloader worth his salt can stay in those confines.

TxBobS
July 17, 2011, 08:39 PM
Anyone ever consider that more Glocks kb because maybe there are more Glocks out there.

moxie
July 17, 2011, 09:28 PM
That was definitely a double-charge. Another item of concern is the big spread in the OALs, from 1.2 to 1.28. Some are awful short, and others too long. Poor control over the seating/crimping step. If you couple a double charge with a very short round (bullet seated way deep) the recipe for disaster is there. The guy needs to start over with the basics, from the beginning.

flashhole
July 17, 2011, 09:58 PM
Interesting thread. I choose powder/charges that will overflow the case if double charged, both rifle and pistol. It's a no-brainer safety mechanism built into the process that can keep you out of serious trouble.

floydster
July 17, 2011, 10:04 PM
In any of my handguns, I cannot get good results using Titegroup and cast bullets, just have had no luck with this powder.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
July 17, 2011, 10:17 PM
I must carefully watch and be attentive for case bulges in my LCP as there is a portion of the case which remains unsupported while chambered, where the feed ramp is located. I have been cautious to watch that particular area of the empty cases ejecting on any loads I am developing and also on any of about 12 different factory loads I happened to buy here-and-there -- all in new boxes but some as old as 30 years, yet still like new ammo.

Deltaboy
July 17, 2011, 10:28 PM
Reloading mistake or not he is blessed not to have lost some fingers. Nothing worse than a Glock when your shooting reloads and have any errors. That unsuported head case is just an accident waiting to happen. IMO I would never shoot reloads in a Glock.

bds
July 17, 2011, 11:18 PM
As to OP, looks like a double charge was the root cause for the KaBoom of the G21.

Next, my focus would be:

1. How did a double charge happen?
2. How would you prevent the double charge from happening in the future?

Oathkeeper1775
July 18, 2011, 01:06 AM
Here is the link to the new burn rate chart: http://loaddata.com/articles/detail.cfm?articleID=35

Hope this helps.

Fred
WOW,

Thank you sir!

918v
July 18, 2011, 01:16 AM
1. How did a double charge happen?
2. How would you prevent the double charge from happening in the future?


1. Progressive reloading.
2. Single stage reloading.

gamestalker
July 18, 2011, 05:35 AM
BDS has hit the nail on the head again and addressed an additional point of interest, that being the new comers to this hobby. A new hand loader is still developing his or her style of preventive measures throughout the reloading process. With this factor starting out with slow burning powders will help them to identify and apply a good solid method of reconciling charged cases prior to seating that bullet. Once you've spilled powder all over the loading tray you quickly realize just how serious that mistake could have been, and how easily it could have been over looked if you had been loading with a faster burning powder.
And because I feel the odds are eventually going to catch up to me after so many years of reloading, I simply won't risk over looking a double charged case by using fast burning powders. And considering the fact that I have had more cases over flowing onto the loading tray than I care to recall, I'd say I've dodged the bullet, so to speak, enough times to convince me to stick to my slow burner's for the next 30 yrs., if the Lord should Bless me with that many more.

Tom488
July 18, 2011, 06:41 AM
The fault was not in the machine.... the fault was inattentiveness by the user, plain and simple. A single stage merely guarantees a MUCH lower round count per hour - it does nothing to prevent a screw-up. He could have been batch-loading cases, powder-charging 50 of them on a loading block, and easily have missed a case... resulting in a squib... which results in a blown-up gun on the next round.

Or... who knows... his powder measure could have bridged, and not dropped a charge. Then, on the next throw, the jam clears itself, and a double-charge of powder dumps out.

Oh, I know.... those dang volumetric powder measures are just as bad as those dang new-fangled progressive presses.... you should be weighing each and every charge on a beam scale... trickling up each charge so it's perfect. You should also probably crimp the bullets in place with your teeth, too.... just to make sure. These new-fangled factory crimp dies just don't do as good a job.

And... why the heck is he shootin' them rounds outta a PLASTIC gun, fer cryin' out loud? Don't'cha know that the only gun worth anything is one made by Samuel Colt hisself? Geez....

flashhole
July 18, 2011, 07:43 AM
How does a squip cycle the action without jamming? A dropped charge for example, is the primer itself strong enough to cycle the action? Not in my PT140.

Hangingrock
July 18, 2011, 08:56 AM
I see there are those that are prickly over the choice of powder and reloading method.

As for powder selection in the 9mm Luger Ė 38Spl Ė 44Spl & 45ACP if it canít be done with W231 then Iím no longer doing it. I have used other powders but my preference is as stated for the cartridges listed.

One participant in this conversation referenced a burn chart. What is peculiar is the listing of HP38 at No. 22 and W231 at No.26 which I would assume is lot to lot variance.

As for single stage or progressive to me its attention to detail in regards to quality control /safety. Iíve been a reloader as opposed to handloader (there is a difference) for the last four decades.

Glocks appear to be the poster child for blow ups. I remember when examples of Colt and Smith & Wesson shared that distinction but it was always attributed to handloader/reloader error.

That said I like the functionality of Glocks enough to own examples in 9mm Luger and 45ACP.

I have no enthusiasm for the 40 S&W no matter the firearms producer. When you have 5-Gal buckets of brass for other cartridges there isnít much time to waste on something new.

bds
July 18, 2011, 10:12 AM
One participant in this conversation referenced a burn chart. What is peculiar is the listing of HP38 at No. 22 and W231 at No.26 which I would assume is lot to lot variance.
I do not know how current that powder burn rate chart is but according to Hodgdon, which owns IMR and licensed to sell Winchester powders, the two (W231/HP-38) are the same exact powder now. If you look at recent published load data (http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Hodgdon%20Basic%20Manual.pdf) and current online load data (http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp), they have been identical for quite a few years.

Older reloading manuals (and even newer like Lyman 49th for 185 gr 45ACP JHP - page 381) show different load data for W231 and HP-38. It is for this reason why I always use current published/online load data and use reloading manuals for reference purposes. If powder formulation changes, powder manufacturers will reflect it on their online/published load data first. Bullet manufacturers will have to redo the testing and rewrite their reloading manuals (if they choose to) and I am not sure if they keep track of powder formulation changes.

Hodgdon burn rate chart that includes newer powders like Alliant's E3 and Winchester's AutoComp shows W231/HP-38 right next to each other (#28 and #29) - http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

Hangingrock
July 18, 2011, 12:03 PM
bds:I do not know how current that powder burn rate chart is but according to Hodgdon, which owns IMR and licensed to sell Winchester powders, the two (W231/HP-38)arethesameexactpowdernow.

I believe the burn chart date was 2006. That’s rather odd since the mid/late nineteen -nineties I’ve known that HP38/W231 were one and the same. That’s why I mentioned lot to lot variance or the burn chart is suspect.

Ed4032
July 18, 2011, 12:05 PM
Anyone ever consider that more Glocks kb because maybe there are more Glocks out there.
It's either that or something else.

Master Blaster
July 18, 2011, 12:48 PM
A new case. Unsupported headspace strikes again.



Its an Unsupported Case head, at least get the Glock bashing defect reason right please.

GW Staar
July 18, 2011, 02:38 PM
Its an Unsupported Case head, at least get the Glock bashing defect reason right please.

Wow! It took 37 posts before somebody caught that. :o Noo beter jist a bad day alarownd. I have no idea why that term came out. Forgive me please.

Perfection isn't in my future....there will be more mistakes with words...I guarantee. Thank god for the spel chek fechure, ore id be worce. Now if I can just remember or take the time to use it every post and re-read them at least once first.

My only excuse on screwing up this thread twice was stress. The wife was calling me, and I was ignoring her until I finished the post. :D

Waldog
July 18, 2011, 09:45 PM
Since the source was handloaded ammo, the likelihood of a double charge is the obvious choice. In spite of all the "unsupported head" stuff about Glock pistols, there are about a trillion handloaded rounds shot in Glocks every year. What is more interesting would be to find out what type of press was the ammo loaded on. There are a couple of different "manually indexing" presses on the market and about 90% of the KABOOMS I have read about were loaded on a manually indexed press. It is important to note that it is not a faulty press design. It is an OPERATOR ERROR. Just something to think about.

GW Staar
July 19, 2011, 12:42 AM
Since the source was handloaded ammo, the likelihood of a double charge is the obvious choice. In spite of all the "unsupported head" stuff about Glock pistols, there are about a trillion handloaded rounds shot in Glocks every year. What is more interesting would be to find out what type of press was the ammo loaded on. There are a couple of different "manually indexing" presses on the market and about 90% of the KABOOMS I have read about were loaded on a manually indexed press. It is important to note that it is not a faulty press design. It is an OPERATOR ERROR. Just something to think about.

I tend to agree with your observations after reading all the O.P's (in the AR-15 thread) posts. He said it was a brand new Dillon. Others assumed it to be a manual indexing 550. O.P. admitted that it was probably operator error, plus he didn't refute the 550 assumptions. Titegroup would be easy to double charge on a manual, and it wouldn't spill powder.

My RCBS was bought as a manual indexer, with the auto-index kit. (nobody had the factory auto-index in stock for 4 months in year-one-Obama, when I purchased it.) I could see the potential of such a thing happening to me (good to know one's limitations;))...so my manual indexing days.....was one.:) Too bad Dillon doesn't make an auto-index kit for the 550. Bet it would sell well.

I was leaning toward bullet setback or a weakened case since the damage to the gun was less than what I've seen before in double-charge incidents....but I have to admit...I haven't see many .45acp kaboom pictures. Most of them are .40 S&W.

noylj
July 19, 2011, 01:28 AM
I see too many people playing the "game" of ipsc and idpa using heavy for the cartridge bullets and extremely fast for cartridge powders. Any error, even a slight case of bullet set-back, will raise pressure into the 60+ ksi range.
How many are shooting .40s using N310, Clays, Titegroup, and Solo 1000? I can't wait for them to discover R-1 or AA N100.
When gaming is more important than safe-and-sane handloading, it will always cause the weaker to be eliminated.
Loading for the .40 should start no faster than 231/HP38 and really should be in the Silhouette/HS6/Power Pistol region.
I know of no other cartridge, even the 9x19, is as temperamental and quick to bite the hand that feeds it as .40S&W.

bds
July 19, 2011, 01:56 AM
When many seasoned match shooters/reloaders use fast burning powders for match loads, it may give new reloaders the impression that, "Heck, if they use it, it must be good." and prompt them to do the same.

What they don't realize is that some match shooters "have" to use Titegroup to make power factor velocities "knowing" the consequences (fast burning, tight load range, double charge possibilities, pressure spikes, etc.). It is one of many reasons why I switched from 9mm to 40S&W - to better meet power factor without using max/over max load data, even when using lower velocity producing W231/HP-38. Many match shooters use particular combination of equipment/powder/charges for specific purpose after doing some deliberate research/work up. Just because they do it does not mean everyone else can also. Check out the 9mm Major thread on Brian Enos (20 pages and growing) and see what's involved to make 124 gr bullet go 1300+ fps - http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12740

Heck, some match shooters are so frugal that they say they use Titegroup because it uses less powder charge than other powders like W231/HP-38. :eek:

When I was being taught to reload by my seasoned Bullseye shooter mentor on Dillon 550 and Pro 1000, he made sure that I advanced the shellplate manually on the 550. Next to cost, it was the auto index feature that made me select the Pro 1000 to load on because the only way I could double charge on the auto-indexed press was to turn back the shellplate and recharge the same case.

Strykervet
July 19, 2011, 02:06 AM
That's overpressure for sure. I have some brass that was fired in a .40 Glock that was loaded way over and it didn't blow out, but it bulged JUST like that brass did --it almost blew, but it held.

If you over charge the case, and .45 is easy, you can expect this. The .45ACP is supposed to be a low pressure round.

Bovice
July 19, 2011, 03:42 AM
I still don't see how it's so difficult to stay "in the lines" given by the manufacturer of a powder, fast or slow burning. I have an automatic indexing press, there's no way to double charge a case unless I'm moving it purposely back to double it. I could not care less about how much it fills the case. I could not care less that my 9mms are not flying down range at 1300 fps out of a 4 inch barrel. Words can't describe how stupid that is.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using a faster burning powder following the directions of the powder manufacturer. Trust me, I've loaded my fair share of auto pistol rounds. Even the .40s which are so quick to "bite the hand that feeds". Never had any undesired result.

Yes, it is less expensive to use a "fast" powder loaded within specs. More power to you if you take advantage of that. You'll get more out of a jug of powder. More is always better!

This is not rocket science. With responsible reloading, you can use any burn-rate powder you would like to that fits the application (rifle/pistol/shotshell). As reloaders, we're supposed to be on the brainier side anyway. But it's still not hard.

GW Staar
July 19, 2011, 05:11 PM
This is not rocket science. With responsible reloading, you can use any burn-rate powder you would like to that fits the application (rifle/pistol/shotshell). As reloaders, we're supposed to be on the brainier side anyway. But it's still not hard.

Valid points, what you say is certainly true. But accidents happen thanks to Murphy's Law. "If it's possible for something to go wrong it will." Trouble is, I'm still looking for a perfect person, who doesn't have to worry about Murphy and his damned law.:)

I understand that there are many pro shooters who reload on the edge, and get away with it....maybe even learned (or watched a competitor learn) a few lessons the hard way (they're not perfect either). I also understand any powder listed in the powder or bullet manufacturers' loading data (especially starting loads) is pretty safe as long as other factors don't bite you. (bullet setback, case damage or weakness, case volume, wrong primers, wrong bullet, etc., etc.)

But I think people are just saying that casual reloaders who have gotten the progressive bug, and who happen to buy a brand new dillon or RCBS manual progressive so he can reload more, may better off using a powder that's more forgiving and difficult to double charge, since a boo boo is going to happen sometime. Maybe the cat jumps on the bench in the middle of your session, or the neighbor comes over to waste an hour. Thing is, powder spilling and overflowing the case, during a double charge, is likely to get the loader's attention, and make him stop and start over. :)

Changing the subject, just slightly: One of the least known about, and dangerous "other factors" is bullet setback. Two sub-factors there. Does the reloader know how to mount bullets the correct length (leaving proper volume behind the bullet), and does he know how to create proper bullet tension between the bullet and the case.

Related to that...is the dubious habit of chambering the same round over and over because it is at the top of the stack in the magazine. Such rechambering can and does cause bullet setback. That might mean that only one of an otherwise safe batch of ammo.....isn't safe.

Master Blaster
July 20, 2011, 08:56 AM
For folks who think you can't load a squibb, or a double charge on an auto index press, well folks you can. A squibb is easy if you have a problem with the powder thrower, and a double charge is also possible if you work the handle only part-way. Both are possible on a LNL just like they are possible on a 550. It all comes down to paying attention when you are reloading.

bds
July 20, 2011, 09:43 AM
I agree. Learning how each reloading tool operates and properly using them is sound reloading practice. Deviate from proper/safe equipment operation by distractions/rushing to reload is trouble waiting to happen - a squib with another round fired or a double charge will ruin your day (not to mention your pistol and your pride).

When in doubt, clear your shell plate and clear your head - then start over with station #1.

GW Staar
July 20, 2011, 01:41 PM
For folks who think you can't load a squibb, or a double charge on an auto index press, well folks you can. A squibb is easy if you have a problem with the powder thrower, and a double charge is also possible if you work the handle only part-way. Both are possible on a LNL just like they are possible on a 550. It all comes down to paying attention when you are reloading.

Absolutely! ....and ditto for any other progressive.

I agree. Learning how each reloading tool operates and properly using them is sound reloading practice. Deviate from proper/safe equipment operation by distractions/rushing to reload is trouble waiting to happen - a squib with another round fired or a double charge will ruin your day (not to mention your pistol and your pride).

What we're getting here is important food for thought. Giving new progressive reloaders...and even experienced ones....or [both], the info needed to not experience this sort of thing. [Reloading wise, I'm 40 going on 3...IOW, 40 years of single stage, but only 3 years progressive] I'm experienced enough to recognize that progressives require diligent focus beyond what I was used to using a single. Squibbs, and double loads are obvious using a batch method on a single station press.

New reloaders starting out with a progressive (manual or auto advance) especially need the good advice in this thread.

The last word is BDS's words of wisdom.


When in doubt, clear your shell plate and clear your head - then start over with station #1.

Bovice
July 20, 2011, 06:50 PM
minimum OALs for a powder/caliber/bullet are typically listed in any reloading data manual you might pick up. Don't go lower than that. On the other end of the spectrum, the maximum OAL shouldn't be exceeded either (except in some guns that may allow it) simply because it won't properly chamber. I like to go right in the middle of the minimum OAL and the maximum OAL. That way, it's sure to fit in the magazines and won't have feed trouble no matter what gun I use it in.

Choice
July 23, 2011, 04:57 PM
That's the reason I buy storm lake barrels for all my glocks

RugerNut9
July 24, 2011, 11:08 AM
Wow I double charged a .357 mag yesterday but I caught it before I pressed the bullet in, then I was questioning the last three that I did. Sometimes you zone out haha well I guess it goes to show..... Don't drink and drive and don't drink and reload.

tahco gunworks
August 2, 2011, 08:43 PM
This happened to me a few weeks ago. I was told 3.0 grains of 'Clays' and a heavy 147 gr. bullet would produce a light shooting load for IDPA matches.

Clays then I learn, was extremely unstable and the worst powder to use in a 9mm.

I was lucky. And no this was not a double load as I measure each load by hand. Sometimes it's not a double load that causes the problem.

GW Staar
August 3, 2011, 01:07 AM
Wow! How bad was the gun....any damage to you? What gun was that shot out of?

Anyone else ever have "unstable" experience with light loads using clays? Some people shoot an awful lot of clays in .45 acp pistols.

GLOOB
August 3, 2011, 01:23 AM
What they don't realize is that some match shooters "have" to use Titegroup to make power factor velocities "knowing" the consequences (fast burning, tight load range, double charge possibilities, pressure spikes, etc.).
I don't agree with this. To get more velocity, you generally want to use a slower powder. People using Titegroup to make major 9 are not doing it because they need to. There are a lot of safer powders to achieve this.

Generally, faster powders like Titegroup are valued for inherently greater accuracy and cleanliness at powder puff velocities/recoil-levels (and the penny pincher's saving of a couple bucks per 1k rounds.) A lot of people find Titegroup/Bullseye to produce the most accurate ammo for their guns. And it probably is the easiest to shoot accurately. But a slower powder loaded to its sweet spot might be just as inherently accurate... only with more recoil (and velocity).

I was told 3.0 grains of 'Clays' and a heavy 147 gr. bullet would produce a light shooting load for IDPA matches.
Fast powders and heavy bullets ARE the best recipe for light recoil, IME. But there is a point of diminishing returns/safety. And it sounds like this load wasn't worked up, correctly. The exact OAL will have a big impact on pressure.

Shmackey
August 3, 2011, 04:56 PM
Clays isn't "unstable." It's unforgiving in that it has a narrow window between minimum and maximum charge. If you load the right amount of powder and seat the bullet to the right depth, you're good.

Clays is my go-to powder for .45 ACP.

Strykervet
August 3, 2011, 09:03 PM
I have some .45 and .40 brass that was RBCD factory ammo from several years ago. They must overload the stuff as it came or comes with all kinds of warnings (so they are aware of it but still make it!?) and it bulged the cases something fierce. They were so bulged that they look like the picture of the blown out .45 except they didn't fail. They were fired from a G27 and had abnormal recoil. So that is how they get 2000fps in case you wondered.

I can tell by looking at that case that it is most DEFINITELY an overcharge. If it were weak, it wouldn't have blown out that way where the case bulges and then fails. He also mentions using a Dillon press, much easier to overload using a progressive than doing 'em one at a time on a single stage.

I load for Glocks too, in fact, almost all my pistol loads are shot in Glocks. I load some near max and max loads in 10mm in new brass with no bulging out of the ordinary. After I use it a couple of times for stronger loads, it gets used for target ammo, which I generally load much lighter. 100's of rounds in 10mm, factory G29, no problems at all.

The .45ACP is a very low pressure round, so doubling the charge could most definitely do that. I like the +P brass even for practice loads, just to be on the safe side. Unlike 9mm +P brass, the .45 stuff is actually tougher/different than the standard .45ACP.

GaryL
August 3, 2011, 09:17 PM
For folks who think you can't load a squibb, or a double charge on an auto index press, well folks you can. A squibb is easy if you have a problem with the powder thrower, and a double charge is also possible if you work the handle only part-way. Both are possible on a LNL just like they are possible on a 550. It all comes down to paying attention when you are reloading.
That is the exact reason I've gone to powders that fill the case, and take a peek into every one (even rifle) before seating a bullet. It takes very little time.

Anyway, the goal for me is to mistake proof the process as much as possible. Cause of that damn Murphy guy. Who invited him anyway? :scrutiny:

Sheepdog1968
August 3, 2011, 09:24 PM
I've never trusted reloads. I'm also not a fan of modifying much beyond sights on a factory gun. And yes, I am a bit overcautions in general. It seems when I hear of issues like this it either involves reloads or a modified pistol.

snuffy
August 3, 2011, 11:42 PM
For folks who think you can't load a squibb, or a double charge on an auto index press, well folks you can. A squibb is easy if you have a problem with the powder thrower, and a double charge is also possible if you work the handle only part-way. Both are possible on a LNL just like they are possible on a 550. It all comes down to paying attention when you are reloading.

False! At least as the dillon 650 is concerned. The powder bar is only activated when there's a case present, at the top of the stroke. The powder bar is re-set only at the very bottom of the ram travel. By then the auto advance has turned the shell plate. You can short stroke it all you want, all you're going to get is one powder charge per the rams complete stroke. You could, of course, reach up to manually operate the powder bar. But why would you want to purposely cause a double charge?

35 Whelen
August 4, 2011, 12:09 AM
This happened to me a few weeks ago. I was told 3.0 grains of 'Clays' and a heavy 147 gr. bullet would produce a light shooting load for IDPA matches.

Clays then I learn, was extremely unstable and the worst powder to use in a 9mm.



Whoever told you to use 3.0 grs. of Clays behind a 147. gr bullet in a 9mm was wrong, and whoever told you Clays is unstable likewise was wrong.

I checked Hodgdon's website for Clays data with a 147 gr. bullet in a 9mm and they showed none. I checked the latest Lyman manual and there was no data for the 147 gr. jacketed bullet, but they did show 2.8 grs. as a compressed, MAX load with their 147 gr. cast bullet. Generally speaking cast bullets, grain for grain produce less pressure than jacketed bullets with identical loads. So if your 3.0 grs load was was over max with a cast bullet, then it stands to reason it was WAY over max with a jacketed bullet.

As far as Clays being unstable, that's hogwash. I've used it in my 38 Special, my 9mm (with 124 gr. bullets), and my 45 ACP with zero problems. I've also used it for light 12 ga. target loads again with no problems. Just follow the load data and everything is normal.

35W

tahco gunworks
August 4, 2011, 01:53 AM
Clays has a history of blowing up guns when used in 9 mm. Do a search and you will see plenty.

I was only trying something new, and won't use Clays again for 9 mm, I have heard it's fine for 45 ACP, maybe a few 40 loads and shotgun.

Glock 19C, it blew out the mag, and made my hand numb for awhile.

I was using plated 147's and shot many that day. The blow out happened when it was over 115 in the afternoon here in Texas. Further research with the manufacturer confirms that Clays is very temperature sensitive.

No the 3.0 load was not too much, as 2.8 wouldn't even cycle the slide. 2.9 barely cycled it, thus 3.0 was settled on.

No problem with setback as all loads were lightly crimped and COAL was a generous 1.169 (works fine in a Glock, and there is still about .020 from the front of the bullet to the rifling.

End result, I won't use Clays for 9 mm, it's too unpredictable and even though it felt like a 22, this was not a powder for this application.

By the way, I was at an IDPA match last Sunday, and when I shared my story about my Clay's problem, there were two others that had the same issue, one lost the gun, the other cracked the slide.

Internet sometimes pukes bad information.

GW Staar
August 4, 2011, 11:37 AM
Glad you are OK. The location of the blowout makes one wonder if a fully supported chamber would have prevented the accident.

On the other hand, it vented things down the mag....away from your eyes.

On the other hand, venting things down the stack has sometimes lit rounds below for a bigger badder experience.

Bottom line....we all have to learn from these experiences if we don't want to repeat them.

Master Blaster
August 4, 2011, 02:55 PM
False! At least as the dillon 650 is concerned. The powder bar is only activated when there's a case present, at the top of the stroke. The powder bar is re-set only at the very bottom of the ram travel. By then the auto advance has turned the shell plate. You can short stroke it all you want, all you're going to get is one powder charge per the rams complete stroke. You could, of course, reach up to manually operate the powder bar. But why would you want to purposely cause a double charge?


You can stiil load a Squibb, or have the indexing fail, any mechanical device can fail, thats why you have to pay attention.

FullEffect1911
August 5, 2011, 11:21 AM
Try WSF for 147 grain lead 9mm loads. I've had excellent results with it and my Glock w/ a Storm Lake barrel. Relatively slow burning powder that seems to really like lead bullets.

Steve Koski
August 5, 2011, 01:46 PM
9 grains of TG is impressive.

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