Stupid question of the day...


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SilentStalker
July 17, 2011, 11:27 PM
Why do some dealers designate ammo like .308 Win. and then .308 Winchester? Why have the different designations? Am i missing something here? And if you go click on them they will only have like 1 item listed under .308 Win. and then like 40+ under .308 Winchester. I must be missing something here...

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il_10
July 18, 2011, 12:46 AM
It's most likely just a databasing issue caused by a lazy employee at one point or another. The temp or intern isn't considering the search results getting messed up when he plugs in the new product, and this is the result.

CWL
July 18, 2011, 01:11 AM
Why do some dealers designate ammo like .308 Win. and then .308 Winchester? Why have the different designations? Am i missing something here? And if you go click on them they will only have like 1 item listed under .308 Win. and then like 40+ under .308 Winchester. I must be missing something here...

I hate it when they also call it 7.62 NATO or 7.62x51mm NATO! -AND don't get me started on 9mm! Also, what is the deal with .380ACP/9mm kurz? ;)

It's just different people using slightly different descriptions for the same ammo, no big deal.

RyanAnchors
July 18, 2011, 07:03 AM
I get annoyed when .380 ACP is listed as 9mm SHORT.
Even if that is accurate, it is annoying and probably confuses the novice gun owners.

I personally don't mind 7.62x51/.308, 5.56x45/.223/5.56 NATO, 7.62x63/.30-06 Springfield, etc etc

I think it is an interesting little part of learning about firearms and learning all of them is fun. Although it would be more practical to just describe them all by full dimensions (oh, can I get a box of 7.62x54r).

It would make asking for a box of ".45" way easier. (.45 Colt, .45 ACP, .45-70, .45 GAP, .45 Webley, .45 Super, .45 Auto Rim, .45 WinMag, etc).

loadedround
July 18, 2011, 07:14 AM
As long as we are complaining about cartridge desingnations let me put my useless two cents in. Why do they call a 38 special a 38 caliber when it's actually a 36 caliber and why do they call the 44 mag and special 44 caliber when it's actually a 43 caliber. Don't get me started on 30 caliber rifle cartridges next. :)

303tom
July 18, 2011, 10:53 AM
Here is my 2 cents , I don`t get the gripe , if you know what you are doing , what`s the big deal ?

medalguy
July 20, 2011, 12:52 AM
There's another reason for the multiple designations. Most web sites offer a search feature, so if someone is searching for .308 Win they won't get a hit on .308 Winchester and the dealer may miss a sale. We did this at my business to increase the likelihood that a customer would find what they were looking for under any of several variances in the name.

9mmepiphany
July 20, 2011, 01:30 AM
As long as we are complaining about cartridge desingnations let me put my useless two cents in. Why do they call a 38 special a 38 caliber when it's actually a 36 caliber and why do they call the 44 mag and special 44 caliber when it's actually a 43 caliber. Don't get me started on 30 caliber rifle cartridges next. :)
Because they used to use .38 and .44 caliber slugs when they were loaded with heeled bullets...like the .22lr

loadedround
July 20, 2011, 08:23 AM
9mm: what does the bullets heel have to do with the actual bullet diameter? Think about it sir. The 357Mag is named correctly,, the 44 Mag is not.

Zach S
July 20, 2011, 08:42 AM
A lot of the time they are listed by what the side of the box says.

If you go to walmart and start looking at .308, some say ".308 Win," others say ".308 Winchester," and others simply say ".308." The same goes for "9mm Luger" and "9x19."

Personally, I chuckle ever time I see .380 referred to as "9mm short" or "9mm special," and have done so myself. The same for .40 S&W being called "10mm short" or "10mm special," or .45GAP - well you get the idea. I've never seen it listed like that on a commercial site though, just on the forums.

Remo223
July 20, 2011, 08:46 AM
9mm: what does the bullets heel have to do with the actual bullet diameter? Think about it sir. The 357Mag is named correctly,, the 44 Mag is not.
the cartridge is 38caliber in a 38special. The bullet is slightly less. Same with 44mag/44special.

InkEd
July 20, 2011, 09:00 AM
Some are a little different like .223 Remington and 5.56 NATO. However, it is usually just
a programming issue.

Kliegl
July 20, 2011, 09:03 AM
Loadedround, you might want to look up what a heeled bullet ia.

9mmepiphany
July 20, 2011, 11:28 AM
Originally Posted by loadedround
9mm: what does the bullets heel have to do with the actual bullet diameter? Think about it sir.
Loadedround, you might want to look up what a heeled bullet ia.
That will explain why a heeled bullet's heel would differ from the measurement of the bullet's diameter. I even provided an common current production example in the .22lr.

With a heeled bullet, the heel of the bullet rides inside the case, The heel's diameter is smaller than that of the bullet, which is the same diameter as the case. When they did away with the heeled bullets in those CF cartridges and loaded the smaller diameter bullets into the cases, they continued to use the same case and designation

Standing Wolf
July 20, 2011, 02:44 PM
Most web sites offer a search feature, so if someone is searching for .308 Win they won't get a hit on .308 Winchester and the dealer may miss a sale.

All it takes is a quick and easy multiple-reference table.

DoubleTapDrew
July 20, 2011, 03:32 PM
I figured they ran out of names. ".357 is already taken so let's call it a .38"
Besides, .380, 9mm Makarov, 9mm Luger is probably less confusing to people than 9x17, 9x18, 9x19

CWL
July 20, 2011, 03:58 PM
In German, "kurz" = "short"

9mm kurz or .380 short, are just methods to distinguish it from the 9mm luger/9mm NATO/9mm parabellum/9x19 etc. Other names for this same round include: .380 ACP, .380 Auto, 9mm Browning, 9mm Corto, 9mm Short, and 9x17mm

Both of these were military rounds so there needed to be a quick way to distinguish between them. This is military jargon going back to before WWI.

9mmepiphany
July 20, 2011, 04:44 PM
I figured they ran out of names. ".357 is already taken so let's call it a .38"
Besides, .380, 9mm Makarov, 9mm Luger is probably less confusing to people than 9x17, 9x18, 9x19

I'm going to figure you just left off the smilie on that first as the .38 spl came before the .357 Mag ;)

I'm pretty sure that with the great variation in names for cartridges, the metric designation is usually the more accurate and less confusing...especially with semi-auto cartridges

My two favorites have always been
1. the 7x57mm (7mm Mauser) being the same as the .276 Rigby (famous elephant culling round)
2. the 38-40, which isn't a .38 or .357...it is a .40 slug, but that isn't what the latter number refers to. the .40 in it's designation refers to the original black powder loading (40 grains of BP)...much like the 45-70, 45-90, 45-110

DoubleTapDrew
July 20, 2011, 06:49 PM
I'm going to figure you just left off the smilie on that first as the .38 spl came before the .357 Mag


I thought I probably had that backwards :) I'm not much of a wheelgun person :o

EddieNFL
July 20, 2011, 08:48 PM
My favorite is .45 LC. Skipped right over the short version.

9mmepiphany
July 21, 2011, 01:26 AM
My favorite is .45 LC. Skipped right over the short version.
But if you're referring to it as the Long Colt, wouldn't that imply that there is a shorter variant? ;) To say nothing about the standard US Army issue for the SAA...the .45 S&W cartridge

9mmepiphany
July 21, 2011, 01:26 AM
My favorite is .45 LC. Skipped right over the short version.
But if you're referring to it as the Long Colt, wouldn't that imply that there is a shorter variant? ;) To say nothing about the standard US Army issue for the SAA...the .45 S&W cartridge

EddieNFL
July 21, 2011, 08:11 PM
But if you're referring to it as the Long Colt, wouldn't that imply that there is a shorter variant?

I don't, but many do.

Shadow 7D
July 22, 2011, 03:31 AM
Um
FOLK

THERE IS NO .45 LONG COLT

where as there is/was in .38
are you by chance referring to the .45 COLT?

Kaeto
July 22, 2011, 05:23 AM
It's commonly called the .45 Long Colt to differentiate it from the .45 ACP.

tbutera2112
July 22, 2011, 09:16 AM
stuff like this bugs me a lot too when trying to search through websites...ill see stuff like brands listed twice

"HK" and "Heckler and Koch" for example...if i want to search through those products, i would have to do two separate searches....a lot of online sites are setup like that, smith, springfield, HK....basically if its got two words, they find a way to list it twice lol

CraigC
July 23, 2011, 11:45 PM
Think about it sir. The 357Mag is named correctly,, the 44 Mag is not.
It's not quite that simple. One must trace its lineage back to the .44S&W American and the .44Russian to understand "why".


To say nothing about the standard US Army issue for the SAA...the .45 S&W cartridge
Standard issue for the SAA was the .45Colt, which had a much smaller rim than the .45S&W. There was a possibility of rim inteference when a SAA was loaded with S&W cartridges. Which is why the .45Gov't was created. It had the .45Colt's rim but was the same length as the .45S&W. Which made it usable in both guns. THIS (nothing to do with the .45ACP) is the reason for the incorrect use of ".45 Long Colt". The .45Gov't is long defunct, as is the need for ".45 Long Colt"......but that doesn't stop many people from clinging to it.

Kliegl
July 24, 2011, 12:27 AM
It's only called .45 Long Colt by the intellectually challenged. The revolver cartridge is 45 Colt. The autoloading pistol cartridge is .45 ACP. The Glock round is .45 GAP.

Now a Colt 45 is a gun, and can be the revolver, or the autoloader. It is also "the best malt liquor in the galaxy" according to Billy Dee Williams.

Remo223
July 26, 2011, 06:11 PM
The head is stamped 45LC. Therefore the round is a 45LC...and your claims that it is not are a waste of everyone's time.

1911Tuner
July 26, 2011, 06:31 PM
So...what if the headstamp just says ".45 Colt"?

Here is an exerpt from the history of the cartridge.

Alternate name

The designation ".45 Long Colt", sometimes abbreviated as ".45 LC", originated among military personnel to prevent confusion with the shorter-cased .45 Schofield. It has become a popular, albeit incorrect, alternative name for the cartridge.

Take note of the part where it says "albeit incorrect."

But, really...what difference does it make? If someone says .45 Long Colt, we know what he means, and he is likely just trying to say that it's the revolver cartridge and not the .45 ACP.

Remo223
July 26, 2011, 10:21 PM
I don't get what point you are trying to make. "45 colt" is ambiguous. 45LC is the term in common usage and has been so for over 100 years. arguing that 45LC is technically incorrect for unimportant historical reasons is a waste of time. Denigrating people who do use the 45LC name is way way beyond a waste of time.

1858
July 27, 2011, 12:50 AM
So...what if the headstamp just says ".45 Colt"?

Or the barrel for that matter .... although the "CAL." is redundant as far as I'm concerned. I don't care if someone refers to the .45 Colt as .45 Long Colt ... at least they're making an effort to refer to the cartridge rather than the caliber.

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/revolvers/super_redhawk/photos/srh_alaskan_05_1.jpg

Kliegl
July 27, 2011, 08:18 PM
Remo, to avoid wasting any more of your time, I'll make it simple: You're wrong, deal with it.

CraigC
July 27, 2011, 08:53 PM
"45 colt" is ambiguous.
Wrong! The official name of the cartridge in question, the name registered at SAAMI, is ".45Colt". Not .45 Long Colt. Colt never called it the ".45 Long Colt". There was a .38 Short and Long Colt. A .380 Short and Long. A .41Short and Long. Never a .45 Short and Long. The official name has always been .45Colt. Every loading manual. Every box of ammo. Most cartridge case headstamps. Every firearm. All marked ".45 Colt". Not "LC" or "Long Colt". It is simply an unofficial, completely unnecessary nickname. It was used originally to differentiate it from the .45S&W and .45Gov't. The S&W has another name and therefore the "Long" is unnecessary. The Gov't is loooooong obsolete and therefore the Long is unnecessary. The .45ACP or .45Auto is another cartridge entirely with another name entirely so therefore the "Long" is unnecessary.


Denigrating people who do use the 45LC name is way way beyond a waste of time.
Nobody's denigrating anybody....except you. Incorrect terminology is simply being corrected. We're all adults here, I think we can survive it. Personally, I like to know when I'm doing something wrong.


...for unimportant historical reasons is a waste of time.
In the world of firearms, we deal in thousandths of an inch. Relatively tiny details are everything. Now we know why you're such a good source of misinformation. Because you deem anything and everything beyond your realm of understanding as a "waste of time".

jonmerritt
July 27, 2011, 09:39 PM
I think my head exploded....

Jim Watson
July 27, 2011, 09:49 PM
Elmer Keith said "Anybody who objects to calling it the .45 Long Colt has not seen the short cased smokeless .45 that Remington turned out in quantity before WW I."

The problem is not that there is no system of caliber and cartridge designations, it is that there are several and you have to know what you are looking at. Plus the many exceptions to the rules. You just have to do a lot of memorizing and keep a copy of CotW handy.

If you want to know why the numbers look strange to the Digital Generation, you have to know the history.

Remo223
July 27, 2011, 09:56 PM
"Personally, I like to know when I'm doing something wrong. "

you got one helluva schnoz

Ignition Override
July 27, 2011, 10:45 PM
The main Memphis gun store on Summer Ave. has "7.62mm" Winchester again, in the white box and at a good price.

It does not say 7.62 NATO, or anything that indicates NATO, but the designation is "Q 3130".
The tiny encircled cross headstamp means that it is NATO, because I started a thread about this and that was one response.

Is Winchester's vague box label meant to be ambiguous: a legal requirement when they produce military spec ammo for the civilian market?

CraigC
July 27, 2011, 11:26 PM
you got one helluva schnoz
I love getting into a discussion about shooting terminology, bringing cold hard facts to the table and getting called a liar for my trouble.

Art Eatman
July 28, 2011, 12:20 AM
Ehh, back when I was a kid, there was the .45 Colt and the .45 automatic. Hoppy used a .45 Colt. In more recent times, that is, the last 30 or so years, this "Long Colt" thing became common for some people, just to make it more clear that it was the revolver cartridge and not the one for the 1911. Lotsa newbies were showing up back then. I kinda tie it to the rise in IPSC popularity, as more people got into the combat handgun deal with 1911s and discovered ".45ACP".

It ain't worth worrying about.

9mmepiphany
July 28, 2011, 03:08 AM
I think we're done here

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