10mm or 357 mag


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IMTHDUKE
July 18, 2011, 12:07 AM
What are the general balistic characteristics of these two rds....10mm vs 357 mag? Which would be considered the stronger rd?

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mes227
July 18, 2011, 01:54 AM
The 10mm is a slightly more robust round. Compare these ballistics for factory loads:
.357Mag
125gn bullet
1,400 fps muzzle vel
545 ft-lbs muzzle energy
8.9 TKO (muzzle knock out)

10mm
135gr
1,400 fps
590 ft-lbs
10.8 TKO

dprice3844444
July 18, 2011, 02:40 AM
very close,357 ammo more readily available,and cheaper.can also shoot 38 for plinking

IMTHDUKE
July 18, 2011, 07:22 AM
May I ask...what is muzzle knock out?

loadedround
July 18, 2011, 07:34 AM
Guys, I've been reloading for the 10 mm ever since I purchased the first Delta Elite avalable in my area sometime in the mid 1980's. Having said that, the 10 mm cartridge is a handloaders dream. You may fire some of the original Norma loads (or hot reloads) approaching the power of the 41 Mag or load it down to about standard 9mm velocities, or somewhere in between. The 10 mm is my favorite pistol cartrdge and I'm running two Delta Elites now. BTw I own a shoot sevaral 357's and also think it's a great revolver cartridge.

tinygnat219
July 18, 2011, 09:00 AM
As much as I am a fan of the 10MM, especially as an Auto cartridge, I think the .357 Magnum has several advantages with the first one being: Availability. I can go into any Wal-Mart, or Sporting Goods store that sells ammunition and I'm pretty sure I can walk out with a box of .357 Magnum. With 10MM it's harder to do.
The advantage of the 10MM is that I can throw 16 rounds in a Glock 20 and have roughly the same weight as a fully loaded .357 revolver. There are only 2 autos that I am aware of that carry the .357 Magnum: Coonan .357 1911, and the Desert Eagle. Both are large and only carry 7 rounds.

With careful planning and some forethought, I'd go with 10MM in a Glock 20because you can carry a powerful round in a platform with capacity.

With a busy schedule, and being forgetful, I'd probably go with the .357 revolver and hit the first Wal-mart / gun store I ran across looking for appropriate ammo.

So it's not just cartridge comparison, one should also look at the platform.

highlander 5
July 18, 2011, 09:13 AM
It's Taylor Knock Out value. A formula developed by John Taylor an African hunter for how much punch a particular cartridge. Formula is bullet caliber x bullet weight x bullet velocity divided by 7000.

wheelgunslinger
July 18, 2011, 09:29 AM
So it's not just cartridge comparison, one should also look at the platform.
Quite so.

MachIVshooter
July 18, 2011, 10:08 AM
They are ballistic twins. Slight advantage to the 10mm for top bullet weight (230 gr. vs. 200 gr.) , slight advantage for the .357 for highest sectional density in top bullet weight (.205 vs. .224). Case capacity is very close (24 and 27 grs. H2O), with the 10mm running slightly higher max pressures (35k, 37.5k) that mitigates the small capacity difference.

Both are capable of nearly 800 ft/lbs of energy from service size guns, both perform quite well for defensive or hunting uses (neither is a big game cartridge, though)

The only decision you have to make is the platform, as 10mm is better suited and more available in autoloaders, and vice-versa.

hardluk1
July 18, 2011, 11:02 AM
IMTHDUKE What are you looking to use ether for. trail gun. Daily carry , Hunting. The 10mm would make a better woods defence gun and maybe a daily carry piece if you feel you need a 10mm but as a hunter It is 357 . You have more accurate platforms to use with longer barrel and better down range energy. When both are fired from hand guns that will allow max loads the 357 will shine over the 10mm. Down forget to that some platforms will not handle a steady diet of max loads from ether one. With the 357 you should be looking at DW, Ruger large frame and sw large frame for common revolvers. Some 10mm guys can offer advise on glocks and factory unsupported chambers. Seems Colt and SW along with DW pistols might hold up to max loads with some recoil spring tuneing.

MachIVshooter
July 18, 2011, 12:46 PM
as a hunter It is 357 . You have more accurate platforms to use with longer barrel and better down range energy. When both are fired from hand guns that will allow max loads the 357 will shine over the 10mm.

The Glock and S&W 10XX series are not the only 10mm's (at that, the 1006 is pretty darn accurate). Aside from sight plane, both .357 revolver and 10mm pistols are available in configurations that allow for optics mounting.

My witness Limited is more accurate than any revolver I own, including a 6" 686.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/WitnessLimited10mm.jpg

Also, that's a 5-1/4 poly rifled barrel. My loads that devlop 1,406 FPS with a 180 grainer from my 1006 garner an extra 35 FPS from the smoother, 1/4" longer Limited barrel, producing 830 ft/lbs.

Tanfoglio also makes a 6" barreled "hunter" model that should eek out just a little more.

So no, the .357 max loads do not exceed 10mm max loads for the reasons mentioned above and in my previous post. Unless you step up to an 8" or longer revolver, there is no ballistic advantage to .357. That is a limitation of the platform, not the cartridge, just as there is no .357 that can match the capacity of a 10mm. (though I'm sure a custom 8"+ 10mm barrel could be had, as silly as it would look)

I'll say it again; They're ballistic twins.

357 Terms
July 18, 2011, 01:17 PM
A big problem with this comparison is that many (if not most) 357 factory offerings have been loaded down over the years. Smaller and more fragile revolvers were chambered for the 357. Ammo manufacturers didn't want the liability when some jackase called them and said " your boolits blew up my Astra!". My reloads I use for hunting (180grn XTP's at about 1400fps outa a 6.5in Blackhawk) will outpreform all but a few manufactures loads, and even those manufacturers suggest using a select few revolvers for these rounds. What really gets me is when someone says the 10mm is on par with the 41 mag.LOL!!

Sean Smith
July 18, 2011, 02:51 PM
Yeah, 10mm isn't a .41 mag, but arguably a .41 mag is even more of a minor niche caliber than the 10mm.

MachIVshooter
July 18, 2011, 03:38 PM
What really gets me is when someone says the 10mm is on par with the 41 mag.LOL!!

Without really knowing much about them, that's an easy mistake to make. There are a lot of commercial .41 magnum loads that are less powerful than top-tier 10mm and .357 loads. Looking through COTW, for example, could easily cause this misconception, with the top .41 mag load listed in the 12th edition at 788 ft/lbs, most well under 700. Of course, COTW also lists the hottest 10mm load at 680 ft/lbs and .357 at 583 ft/lbs.

Standing Wolf
July 18, 2011, 04:27 PM
How many rounds do 10 mm semi-automatic pistols carry?

hardluk1
July 18, 2011, 04:36 PM
machIV Forgot about witness . Seems to many get all riled up over tham I have owned a witness, great trouble free pistol. But when you can shoot better than 3" groups at 100 yards with your witness then your in the same league. I could not even come close. I have never been a fan of the smith revolvers when compaired to DW's . may standard load was 180 gr 357 at 1250 fps but i had some hotter loads worked up that pushed a bit over 14fpsfps. Old 357 loading data would step on beyound most of todays loads. Also not all pistol can shot those old loads. Kinda like some 10mm loads. And heck yes the 41 mag just beats the poop out of both. But you can buy factory loaded 357 that from the right handgun will out perform all factory 10mm. Not buy much but they do. With way more bullet options to pick from. Fast and heavy still ain't good with the wrong bullet for the job

MachIVshooter
July 18, 2011, 04:43 PM
How many rounds do 10 mm semi-automatic pistols carry?

Anywhere from 9 (1911 pistols) to 18 (Sarsilmaz K2), not counting extended magazines.

Glock 20 and the full size Witness pistols are 15+1 with flush magazines. Henning's makes a +6 (21) round extension for the Witness, there are +5 extensions for Glock.

But when you can shoot better than 3" groups at 100 yards with your witness then your in the same league.

I don't shoot 100 yards with it, but I'd be willing the bet the mechanical accuracy is there.

Remember, this is not the same gun as a standard Witness. The extra $600 pays for hand fitted parts, a tapered cone poly rifle bull barrel, adjustable SA trigger, better sights, etc.

CraigC
July 18, 2011, 05:56 PM
The 10mm is an excellent cartridge but for sporting purposes, bullet selection is a little on the light side. The various 180gr jacketed bullets are not very well suited to big game, leaving only the 200gr XTP. Which, unfortunately, carries only the sectional density of a 158gr .357. Although there are the excellent 200gr and 230gr LBT designs from Beartooth and Double Tap respectively.

Cop Bob
July 18, 2011, 06:07 PM
I would say that it all boils down to your personal preference.. Which platform do you like?

Revolver or Auto....

The 41 on par with 10MM (or Vice versa) They both can be loaded to very impressive performance levels .. I personally wouldn't want to get hit with either one.... There really isn't any different degrees of dead...

Strahley
July 18, 2011, 08:19 PM
What Bob said. Caliber should be one of the last decisions you make when choosing a handgun. Many other factors come first

PO2Hammer
July 18, 2011, 08:36 PM
I like both rounds and hand load for both. I prefer the lower felt recoil and reduced muzzle blast of the 10mm. Plus there's no spitting of lead or lube with a 10mm pistol. Very close in terms of power, but I like the wider and usually heavier bullets in 10mm in case they don't expand.
I guess it comes down to preferring to shoot the 10mm Glocks to a S&W 66 or 686 for me. I also added .40s&w conversions so the 10mm has a sub caliber round like the .357 mag has the .38 special.

jmr40
July 18, 2011, 08:55 PM
The results of anything hit with either will likely be the same. If I were looking for hunting handgun I'd pick a 357 revolver between the 2. With a 6" or longer barrel you will get a slight edge in velocity and power over the 4.5" barrels on a Glock in 10mm. The better single action trigger will help with better accuracy at longer ranges.

When carrying a gun in the woods my Glock 20 gets the nod. It is smaller, lighter and more compact than a comparable revolver. While I'm more accurate at range with a revolver fired in single action, I'm more accurate with the Glock in closer range rapid fire situations that may be needed for SD from 2 or 4 legged predators. 16 rounds of 357 mag equivalent rounds vs 6 is another huge consideration.

Neither is a bad choice and a 4" 357 mag revolver would be my 2nd choice for such uses.

Pyro
July 18, 2011, 09:19 PM
I'd take the .357 for the sake of practicing with cheap .38 special.

Standing Wolf
July 19, 2011, 03:20 PM
Thanks, MachIVShooter!

357 Terms
July 19, 2011, 03:59 PM
The basic problem with the 10mm is that the 40 S&W is a very good SD caliber,and the 357 is a better hunting and CC option ( I can carry my 2.25 sp101 on my belt and forget about it)Does anyone make a sub-compact 10mm? No 10mm race gun is going to be as accurate (under field conditions) as a long barreled 357. The 10mm never took off and there are a lot fewer options,as far as manufactureres and platforms, to choose from. I would rather carry the forty for CC or home defense and I would rather have a 357 for hunting. The 10mm is dying a slow death.

nastynatesfish
July 19, 2011, 04:25 PM
you cannt compare a compact 10mm to a long barreled 357? and glock makes a sub compact, i think its a 29 or so, and the compact glocks are as accurate as the shooter. its shot placement regardless of game or target, regardless if your shooting a charging bear or a would be assailant with a knife. compacts are made for concealed carry, not target shooting. id put my G20 against a 357 any day, and yes i have both. i use to carry the 357 on hunts and hiking, now im selling it. whats more comfortable in your hand is the question should be asked. in a high stress situation if your not comfortable your gonna get hurt. Ohh and the 10mm never took off?? thats funny, it might not have been around as long but it certainly took off, just the fact alot of people dont like the recoil of it, hence the FBI wanting it downloaded. get someplace and handle both pistols, if you can shoot both side by side.
as far as not many options, hmm:
http://marina.fortunecity.com/harbour/347/10mm02.html
http://marina.fortunecity.com/harbour/347/10mm03.html

jmr40
July 19, 2011, 04:26 PM
Does anyone make a sub-compact 10mm?

Yes, Glock.


Your Ruger is 7" long and weighs 27 oz according to Rugers website. The Ruger holds 5 rounds that will be severely slower from a 2.25" barrel

A Glock 29 is 6.77" long and weighs 24 oz according to Glocks website. The Glock holds 16 rounds with G-20 mags and will lose some velocity, but should be much better from a 3.78" barrel.

The 10mm is dying a slow death.

There are more options for the 10mm than ever before and they are readily available online. Prices are often cheaper than 45

nastynatesfish
July 19, 2011, 04:34 PM
http://www.gunblast.com/Glock20.htm

357 Terms
July 19, 2011, 04:52 PM
LOL I wasnt comparing a compact 10mm to a long barreled 357??huh? what I said was the 10mm is dying. Does S&W still make any? Didn't Kimber? do they still? The 357 is better for hunting, has a waaaaay more versitile selection for bullets, size of weapon and can shoot the light 38 outa the same gun. The 10mm isnt a better hunting round than the 357 and the 40 is powerful and more controlable
as SD round.
Oh and jmr40 do some better research my sp101 is the 2.25 version.

badbart
July 19, 2011, 05:00 PM
I have both and reload both, they are both good rounds. I carry both, but I prefer the 10mm for carry because of capacity. For target shooting hot loads I prefer the .357 because I don't have to chase brass or worry about bulged brass.

SharpsDressedMan
July 19, 2011, 05:01 PM
If the 10mm is dying, it's because an awful lot of gunners have failed to wake up and take in one of the best cartridges, and guns, to come along. It will be sad if it comes to pass. Anyone that can shoot full house .357 will find the 10mm a joy to shoot.

357 Terms
July 19, 2011, 05:20 PM
Its dying because there really isn't a place/need for it . I would much rather carry a sub-compact 40 than a compact 10. As for a hunting/field gun the 357 is better. If I need more than 6 357's in the field than I need a rifle.

rolandedwinjohnson
July 19, 2011, 05:41 PM
I can not tell which way to go until I know:
1) Where are you, and
2) What do you want it to do?

As a side arm up in Alaska where big bad brown things would see you as dinner and not a threat I'd say neither.

In Montana where big brown things scare the pants off you I'd say either, with a nod going to the full power 10mm.

In down town big city where the bad things are two legged I'd say choose what you are most comfortable.

In no case is a full power 357 with 158 grain bullets a bad option

SharpsDressedMan
July 19, 2011, 06:43 PM
If you accept that the .357 is better, then you won't feel the 10mm has any place. There is information that might lend one to see the 10mm as BETTER than the .357, and many other cartridges, and would give many shooters reasons for using or owning one. Personally, I can do more things with a 10mm than a .357, 9mm, or .45. Shoot flatter than most, have more ammo easily/readily available on the person, and shoot a more powerful round IN A PACKAGE LIGHTER AND SMALLER than most. Isn't that enough to breath life into it?

357 Terms
July 19, 2011, 07:39 PM
Sharpdressedman .... please give more info. More ammo ? more readily available? The 10mm is very hard to find ammo for, and even then it is limited in its function. Most bullets it can shoot are designed for the 40.

DWFan
July 19, 2011, 08:00 PM
quote:
The 10mm is a slightly more robust round. Compare these ballistics for factory loads:
.357Mag
125gn bullet
1,400 fps muzzle vel
545 ft-lbs muzzle energy
8.9 TKO (muzzle knock out)

10mm
135gr
1,400 fps
590 ft-lbs
10.8 TKO

Buffalo Bore and Double Tap both market 125gr .357 Magnum ammo that delivers in excess of 1700 fps. In some revolvers, (I won't mention which), the .357 Magnum can be loaded even hotter with 125gr bullets and reach 1800+ fps. The .38/44 Heavy Duty (a .38 Special loaded to Magnum pressures) can launch a 173gr bullet at 1300 fps for 650 ft/lb of muzzle energy and a TKO value of 12. The .357 Magnum can drive that same bullet in excess of 1500 fps for 865 ft/lb of muzzle energy and a TKO value of 13.
To put things in perspective, Hornady's 240gr XTP .44 Magnum ammo at 1350 fps gives 971 ft/lb of muzzle energy and a TKO value of 20. Going by the above data, one could conclude that not only is the .357 Magnum superior to the 10mm, given the proper loading, so is the .38 Special. If the .38 Special is, then so must be the nearly identical 9mm Win Mag.
But raw data doesn't tell the whole story, does it?

nastynatesfish
July 19, 2011, 08:35 PM
He's talking about carrying 15 round clips copmpared to 6. The question was balistics. If you go to any book and look up loads per manual which is more powerful? I load 155 and 165gr bullets in my glock go to walmart and pick up a box of the heavy 357, what's it gonna be? Most gun shops in Tucson and Phoenix carry 10mm hornady ammo, I bought 8 last month from sportsmens warehouse in Tucson. Fact of matter is you have die har semi auto guys and die hard wheel gun guys. Its not ever goin to change. I'm still looking for a 10mm magnum. And I'm puttin a 10mm wittness on layway Thursday. It is what it is. Good post I'm alsawy up for a gun debate lol

357 Terms
July 19, 2011, 08:42 PM
^^nastyfish? please elaborate! not sure i'm following ya... really.... what?

SharpsDressedMan
July 19, 2011, 09:11 PM
First of all, I handload. In this day and age, I do not understand why someone does NOT handload. I have all the ammo I want, for any cartridge, dependent only on monetary appropriations for components, and the motivation to go load it. With regard to ammo availability,I was speaking of what you have with you, and, for the 10mm, the nice 10 round magazines for my Glock 29, or the 15 round magazines for the Glock 20. Even the S&W 1006 packs 10 in the gun with a 9rd magazine. With a few spare magazines for any of the above, the poor .357 is left in the dirt, if not for convenience of how fast you can reload, but the manner of how to carry spare ammo.

SharpsDressedMan
July 19, 2011, 09:18 PM
Guys, ballistic advantage for the .357 is often quoted from guns WAY bigger (longer barrels) than those often carried for defense, etc. Sure, if you pack a 6" or 8 3/8" barreled gun, you enjoy the ballistics. If you carry a 3" Sp101, or 4" anything else, then you drop a lot of FPS, and ft/lbs. I believe the 10mm is clearly superior in power in comparable barrel lengths, and additionally due to the greater cross section of the projectile. Your opinions may differ.

357 Terms
July 19, 2011, 09:32 PM
Glad you handload sharpdressed, so do I, have for years, love it ..... so. yeah the 10mm Glocks have more capacity than a revo....so. There is no way I will ever hunt with a 10mm since the 357 is better, there is no way that I would choose a 10mm over a 40 for concealed carry( or even a 357 for that matter) you 10mm fan boys aren't making very good arguments.

JShirley
July 19, 2011, 09:45 PM
In factory loads, it's easier to find more powerful .357 than 10mm loads.

If you're deciding between the two, whether you handload, whether you already own a .38 or .357 or .40, and whether you prefer a revolver or automatic should be considered.

If you don't load, .357 is almost certainly the way to go.

John

TenMillimaster
July 19, 2011, 09:51 PM
The 10mm is a slightly more robust round. Compare these ballistics for factory loads:
.357Mag
125gn bullet
1,400 fps muzzle vel
545 ft-lbs muzzle energy
8.9 TKO (muzzle knock out)

10mm
135gr
1,400 fps
590 ft-lbs
10.8 TKO
A quick aside about TKO- a 2300gr, 3inch diameter baseball travelling at 150 feet per second has a TKO value of 147...but I think I'd rather get hit by a record pitch than get shot by either cartridge.

As far as which is better? Well, 10mm has a slightly larger caliber (good solid wounding potential there) and is rated for higher pressures. 10mm also, as mentioned before, can seat heavier bullets. So, systems aside, the 10mm wins in my book.

But they're so close, does it really matter? I'd personally go for the 10mm for the capacity of an autoloader (what beats just one bullet? why two of course), the ability to suppress, and the lighter weight that can be had.

montanaoffroader
July 19, 2011, 09:59 PM
I have a couple of .357's and my brother in law recently picked up a Glock 20. We had a little informal shooting match out behind the cabin, and in my opinion there wasn't a nickel's worth of difference between the 2 cartridges. Accuracy from his Glock was similar to my King Cobra, and the chunks of firewood we were shooting at seemed to suffer about the same amount of damage from either round. Not the most scientific test in the world, but lots of fun just the same. :D

What it comes down to for me is .357 ammo is cheaper and my wheelguns are easier on the brass. My brother in law doesn't care how much he pays for the ammo, he just likes having more rounds on tap.

In my opinion you should try both, and pick whichever one feels right to you.

DWFan
July 19, 2011, 10:03 PM
quote:
"ballistic advantage for the .357 is often quoted from guns WAY bigger (longer barrels) than those often carried for defense, etc."

SharpsDressedMan, you are right; but the 10mm has the advantage of a closed breech, doesn't it? It doesn't matter. Buffalo Bore's 125gr .357 Magnum does 1500 fps from a 3" J-frame S&W and their 180gr does 1400 fps from a 4" S&W 686.

Point4orLarger
July 19, 2011, 10:49 PM
Of those 2 rounds, which one will fire in an auto, in a wheel-gun, and in a rifle? "Who ya gonna call?"

TenMillimaster
July 19, 2011, 10:57 PM
Of those 2 rounds, which one will fire in an auto, in a wheel-gun, and in a rifle? "Who ya gonna call?"
Not many automatics chamber 357. Not many rifles chamber 10mm.

SharpsDressedMan
July 20, 2011, 12:35 AM
What's the reference to rifles? I though this was purely handguns. So far, it seems, like anything, a standoff. If you like revolvers, you are probably going to go for the .357. If autos, the 10mm. Point for point, though, ballistics being somewhat equal, the 10mm gives you (potentially) lighter weight (Glock), less recoil impulse (from similar sized pistols), higher capacity, and easier reloads. FWIW, I won't be selling my Ruger Security Six. It's just too darn accurate! :D

MachIVshooter
July 20, 2011, 02:51 AM
No 10mm race gun is going to be as accurate (under field conditions) as a long barreled 357.

I wouldn't put money on that if I were you. Nor should you bet on the cartridge dying. It hung in there for 20 years before a bunch of gun and ammo makers started producing in the early 2000's. It's more popular than ever before, and it's here to stay. Don't believe me? Do a quick search for 10mm right here on this board.

You seem to have a particular and irrational hatred for the cartridge, which is your business. But you need to stop with the ridiculous conjecture. You're annoying those of us who know better and making yourself look a fool.

Bottom line (once again):

The two cartridges are ballistic twins, and the most versatile pair of handgun cartridges extant. Both can be downloaded to creampuff levels or tuned up for medium game hunting or to make very potent SD rounds. Either can be had in guns that will give rifles a run for the money accuracy-wise.

Which one is right for an individual comes down to gun preference (or capacity, if that is a concern).

MachIVshooter
July 20, 2011, 03:14 AM
The 357 is better for hunting, has a waaaaay more versitile selection for bullets

Just had to address this.

.357" runs from 110-200 gr.

.400" runs 135-230 gr.

Any conceivable bullet type is made in these two diameters across that weight spectrum, save the heaviest in either caliber

And no, .400" bullets are not all designed for .40 S&W velocities, just as not all .357" bullets are intended for .38 Spl. velocities. In point of fact, most .40's can't handle 200+ gr due to COAL. And a lot of .357's cant take the 200 gr. pills unless you seat past the cannelure (which causes other issues, like bullets jumping crimp)

I don't really have a dog in this fight, being that I own four 10mm handguns and five .357 handguns. Just FYI

357 Terms
July 20, 2011, 04:28 AM
"irrational hatred for this round" LOL really mach1v!? you seem to have a little bit of misconception about the abilities of the 10mm, and the platforms its available in, comes with fanboyism

Cryogaijin
July 20, 2011, 05:08 AM
357 seems to be under the impression that if a round doesn't do anything unique it is "Dying" Well, then the vast majority of arms out there would be "dying" atm, since there is a TON of overlap all over the place. There are reasons the term "Ballistic twin" is around.

There are things the 10mm can do the .357 can't.

There are things the .357 can do the 10mm can't.

And for the record, there is a better selection of 10mm up here than .357. This includes inexpensive bulk ammo, which I haven't seen for .357 in ages.

hardluk1
July 20, 2011, 08:45 AM
For me the 10mm has no place for a CC gun Even the sub-compact glocks as good as they are still are not light or thin and don't offer the grip for many. I can make quicker follow up shots with darn near any 40 cal 45 or 9mm on the market when like sized. Don't expect the first shot to do.

For hunting atleast in the lower 48 ,give me a 6 to 8" revolver And a max load 357 well do atleast what a maxed 10mm can do with better BC and bullet choices more accurately.

So for me the 10mm shines as a trail gun or for a fisherman in grizzly country back up or a travel car/truck gun offering high cspacity and good power. If the 10mm and the 357 won't do then 41 mag, 44mag or 454 on up . All of these would be better for alaska along with bear spray.

Its just another choice no the greatest .

Jason_W
July 20, 2011, 09:18 AM
I recently purchased a Glock 20 in 10mm. It's my first semi-auto handgun and the grips fit my hands better than any stock revolver I've tried thus far. As a result, I shoot better with the glock than I do with any of the .357 revolvers I've tried.

Don't get me wrong, I think revolvers and the .357 mag are great (the .357 is an amazing dual platform round that becomes a whole new animal from a carbine) but I think performance wise the difference between the two rounds when fired from handguns with equal length barrels is academic hair splitting.

The .357 has an edge in terms of sectional density, and the 10mm has an edge in bore diameter.

Eventually, I'm going to outfit my Glock with a 6" barrel and an optic and take it deer hunting, just to be different. I'd venture that inside 50 yards, a deer hit in the vitals with an appropriately loaded 10mm will have the same end result as one hit with an appropriately loaded .357.

jmr40
July 20, 2011, 10:38 AM
Oh and jmr40 do some better research my sp101 is the 2.25 version.

I did my research, here is the link.http://ruger.com/products/sp101/models.html

I do apologise, I got 1 line off and your gun is 2 oz lighter than I originally quoted, but is still heavier than the G-29. The length I quoted is right.

I used to own a gun just like yours until I started chronographing loads and found I was getting 38+p velocities with a lot of noise with the short barrel. My current G20 is 2 oz heavier than your SP with only 1/2" longer overall length. (still much smaller and lighter than any 4" 357). I am getting 1300 fps from 200 gr bullets (chronographed, not guessing).

I have 357's, but wouldn't consider one with a barrel shorter than 4". If you re-read my original post I clearly stated that a long barreled 357 was a better choice than the 10mm as a hunting gun. As a SD weapon against either 2 or 4 legged predators either Glock is a much better gun than a snub 357. If you don't mind the extra weight or length a longer barreled 357 or larger caliber revolver is a valid option.

CraigC
July 20, 2011, 11:54 AM
What we need are some new Gold Dot designs. I'd like to see them offered in 200gr and 220-230gr weights, JHP and JSP designs. For sixgun shooters like myself, who need a good cast bullet with a crimp groove for use in the .38-40, a better selection of cast bullets would be nice too.

PS, a 135gr Sierra at 1600fps makes a wonderful varmint bomb!

357 Terms
July 20, 2011, 01:06 PM
Ammo selection? There are more bullets available for the 38/357 than any other caliber. Its not just the weight, bullet profile and material also must be considered. I have loaded 187grn wide nose flat piont hard cast gas check bullets at 1300fps that stunned me with the amount of penetration they delivered, more than a 10mm would acheive. As to there being a market for the 10mm auto; why doesn't S&W make them anymore Kimber? if there was a market than Ruger, Taurus and many others would manufacture and sell them, they dont. In a previous post Mach4 suggested he thought his Witness was mechanically capable of 1 1/2 in groups at 100yrds,doubt it . You could put that Witness in a ransom rest and shoot all day and not acheive that, now a Freedom Arms mod.97 yes. I dont mean to step all over you fanboys; some of ya seem a little delusional.

hardluk1
July 20, 2011, 02:11 PM
357 Terms I like a 357 but a hardcaste is not a general use bullet. ITS Not for defence, not for deer, unless you like to trail running bleeding deer. Use it on a piggy or black bear hunt and it is right at home. Brakes bone and pentetrates very well. Control expantion or heavy cheap soft points and good hp work fine for hunting too when velocity is at 1400fps and above for longer shoots. Just sight in at 75 yards.
Guys with glocks should be changeing barrels brands with shooting lead.

All right mach4 chip in here. 10MM's
Kimber
Colt
Witness
EAA-K2
Dan Wesson 1911
SW 610 revolver
Glock

And I ain't even a 10mm fan
Bet if Les Baur was asked he would and Ed Brown too

357 Terms
July 20, 2011, 03:48 PM
Lol I never said it was used for deer or defense! Just said that I was surprised at the penetration. Just another example of the versatility of the 357.
Wow hardluk thats alot of 10mm manufactures,almost as many companies that make 357 LEVER ACTIONS!

SharpsDressedMan
July 20, 2011, 05:11 PM
Regarding size of the weapon and todays choices for CCW, I fail to see how a 2.5-3" bsrreled SP101 or K frame, as somewhat reassonable examples of a .357, are going to be easier to conceal than a Glock 29. The J-frame guns CAN be lighter, and smaller, but they are not usually fully capable fighting guns (they either don't handle well, people have a hard time performing well with them, and others just dump them because they want a more controllable gun with less pain). Tjhe G29 does not jump out of my hand, does not cause pain, is accurate as hell, and holds 11 rounds. No .357 in a smaller package compares to that.

MachIVshooter
July 20, 2011, 09:56 PM
you seem to have a little bit of misconception about the abilities of the 10mm, and the platforms its available in, comes with fanboyism

Please, enlighten me.

I know exactly what it's abilities are, and they are the same abilities as the .357 Magnum from a ballistic standpoint. You keep citing penetration; Do you really think the 10mm lacks penetration with a 230 gr. WFNGC hardcast bullet at 1,200 FPS?

I'm quite familiar with the platforms, having shot most of them.

I already told you I actually own more .357's than 10mm's, and more 9mm's and .45's than either, yet you insist that I'm a "fanboy". I guess if that's what having enough experience with a cartridge to know what it is and isn't means, then guilty as charged.

You still have yet to give us a good reason you're so adamantly against a round that is the autolader equivalent of your pet. I've easily refuted everything you've thrown out so far, so c'mon, let's have it.

Until then, I'm just getting a few chuckles out of your diatribe. Of course, there are no valid reasons, just personal preference, so I'll just continue to be amused until you give up or this thread is locked.

IMTHDUKE
July 20, 2011, 10:14 PM
I got this one over the Delta Elite I was considering.
SW 627 PC 357mag x8 with moon clips. Use mainly as a house gun. Only wheel gun I own.

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww2/imthduke/GUNS/pix572081172.jpg

357 Terms
July 21, 2011, 04:16 AM
Mach4; just shoot that Witness at 100yrd and tell us how ya do.

JShirley
July 21, 2011, 05:30 AM
I would want a longer barrel on a house gun...

MachIVshooter
July 21, 2011, 10:20 AM
Very nice, IMTHEDUKE. In addition to the capacity advantage, N frames really tame even the hottest loads, too.

Mach4; just shoot that Witness at 100yrd and tell us how ya do.

That's the best you can do? Now that I've debunked all of your bogus reasons, you choose a comparison between two firearms (not the cartridges) that neither one of us can prove and that says nothing about either round, but about the guns firing them. Do you even know what a steady hand it takes to print respectable groups at 100 yards with a handgun? I do, because that was my sight-in and regular practice distance with my scoped Desert Eagle Mk XIX .50, which turned in an average 5-shot group of 2-9/16" @ 100 from the bench.

357 Terms
July 21, 2011, 12:44 PM
LOL debunked? LOL "i'm not worthy". I will bow to your ifintile er.. infinite wisdom.

JShirley
July 21, 2011, 12:44 PM
Heavy 10mm loads are supposed to work pretty well from a carbine. Would think a 4-6" barrel would still put a 180-200gr into a target at 100 meter with authority.

357 Terms
July 21, 2011, 01:27 PM
Sure they would, I am just interested if a elite 10mm pistol can shoot as good as a top of the line 357 revolver, seems like you limit the cartridge if the platform can't deliver at a range that it is still effective. I know some 357 revolvers (and the right shooters) can shoot small consistent groups at 100yrds, can a 10mm?

Jason_W
July 21, 2011, 02:24 PM
Sure they would, I am just interested if a elite 10mm pistol can shoot as good as a top of the line 357 revolver,

I'm sure both are more accurate than I am.

SharpsDressedMan
July 21, 2011, 02:46 PM
I'll put my $500 Glock 20, or 29 for thast matter, against a similarly priced .357 revolver. Forget the ELITE, high buck stuff, let's shoot the "everyman" guns; the typical .357's or 10's we might find on the hip of the blue collar guy. Anyone want to do 50 yard comparisons? I don't have a machine rest, but I can shoot two hands over bags, or bag up the gun front and rear and get some steady groups. 50 yards is a good enough standard, as power from either at 100 yards is probably marginal for big game, and I don't take 100 yard shots on game animals without a scoped firearm anyway. Let's do it, and post them on this thread. Anyone in?

357 Terms
July 21, 2011, 02:49 PM
Sharpdresed; where are you in NE Ohio?

SharpsDressedMan
July 21, 2011, 04:40 PM
Wadsworth, OH. Come on over; we'll shoot in the backyard!

Too_Pure
July 21, 2011, 04:58 PM
I'd take the .357 for the sake of practicing with cheap .38 special.
I've always wondered about the value of practicing with a loaded down powder puff in comparison to what your going to carry. Isn't it better to not be schocked when you pull the trigger on a full powered .357 or 10mm?

SharpsDressedMan
July 21, 2011, 05:16 PM
Well, that has been the theory for many years. The "experts" say practice with what you'll be using. Probably, the truth lies in the middle. You can get a TON of practice in with lighter loads, and not wear out your gun as fast. It does make sense to sight in with full power loads, so you know where you'll hit, and to be familiar with them, but even if I practice exclusively with lighter loads, I cannot see myself being "shocked" by the high powered stuff going off when I am fighting for my life in a gunfight. I'll have WAY more important things to scare me, shock me, and worry about than MY muzzle blast.

357 Terms
July 21, 2011, 05:17 PM
Wadsworth, thats a trek. How bout halfway? I'll show up in a suit and poorly tied tie?

Too_Pure
July 21, 2011, 06:53 PM
I'll have WAY more important things to scare me, shock me, and worry about than MY muzzle blast.

True. I don't practice with full power SD ammo, either. I do, from time to time, shoot a box of what I carry to insure functionality and to remember what it's like. And I like my practice ammo to be, say, medium-high powered. I load it to my liking. I've done the loaded down thing and it just isn't as much fun.

10mm is a handloader's dream. So many possibilities. Make it a moderate .40, make it magnum, or somewhere in between.

JWJacobVT
July 21, 2011, 07:12 PM
Gee I practice with 40 S&W in my 10mm handguns (well some of them) G20, G29, S&W 610s and my S&W gen 3 4006 handles just like my S&W gen 3 1006. Yes I have some 357s also, but ccw my 10mm. Why cause I can make milk jugs dance at 80 yards with it, aiming dead on. I couldn't do that with my 45acp. So I went to the darkside. If you are hating on 10mms, just send the poor gun to me and I will take care of it LOL. Remember folks everyone has differant likes, there are even some of you that gotta have a 1911 of x brand. That doesn't mean I have to have one. Just my 2 cents.

Strykervet
July 21, 2011, 07:36 PM
I like 10mm. More rounds, some loads have similar ballistics to .357, some exceed. The 10mm is very versatile regarding loadings, 135gr. to 220gr. Just a great round. Flat shooting and accurate. I like the G29, one of my carry pieces. The .357 is great, but to appreciate the round, you really need a barrel 4" or longer. My 6" bbl. really smokes, but it is MUCH bigger than my G29, which has a significant advantage in all areas when compared to a .357 with a similar length barrel, especially for carry. My snubnose .357 doesn't compare at all to the G29 in power. Not at all.

Basically, from what I can tell, the rounds go like this in relative power: ..., .40, .45ACP, .357mag (long barrel), 10mm, .41mag, .44mag,... The 10mm is also the only magnum semi auto cartridge that fits in a normal frame. 15 rounds in a G20. This is my go-to round. My wife is even considering carrying one of the old Smith 10mm pistols.

JShirley
July 21, 2011, 09:40 PM
I have a .357, and I've had 10mms.

I would so love a Glock 36-sized 10mm! No idea why Glock hasn't made one...

Truthfully, I'd be even happier with a 4-4.6" barrel, but a nice thin (single stack) grip to fit my widdle hands would be excellent. :)

John

MachIVshooter
July 22, 2011, 01:40 AM
I am just interested if a elite 10mm pistol can shoot as good as a top of the line 357 revolver, seems like you limit the cartridge if the platform can't deliver at a range that it is still effective. I know some 357 revolvers (and the right shooters) can shoot small consistent groups at 100yrds, can a 10mm?

I already covered that the Limited is more accurate than my worked 6" 686, a similarly priced gun of fine pedigree that has been tuned very well (26 ounce SA trigger). It also outshoots my 4" 586, my M65 4" and my Security-Six 4". The 2" M60 is a no brainer. And like the Limited, my Kimber ST II is also more accurate than ANY of my revolvers (which include a 629-2 and a SRH .454, among many others).

The 1006 does not outshoot the 686, 586, 629 or SRH, but does the rest. The compact witness is less accurate than most of the full size wheelguns. It's not a tight gun, and I've certainly helped loosen it up, putting 180 grain bullets out of the 3.5" barrel at 1,340 FPS.

Of course, this is at 25 and 50 yards, so it stands to reason that if the Limited outperforms those guns at those distances by a certain percentage, it will outperform them at 100 by the same margin. Obviously, that means that the difference in group size will double or quadruple.

I have shot the SRH .454 at 100, and was not impressed with it's accuracy. I attribute much of that to the crappy Ruger trigger. Perhaps it would do better in a ransom rest. But then, what's the point? Not like I'm gonna drag one around the woods.

Why don't I shoot the others at 100 yards? As Sharpdressedman pointed out, both the .357 and 10mm are getting pretty iffy at that range for use on medium game. Shoot, even with the big .50 AE, I limited myself to 125 yards on big game animals. At that range, it was down to 920 ft/lbs.

You should check into your numbers before taking shots on game animals at that range. For example, lets take Buffalo Bore's heaviest bullet loads in either caliber:

.357: 180 gr @ 1,400, 783 ft/lbs. Muzzle, 549 ft/lbs @ 100 (29.9% loss)

10mm: 220 gr. @ 1,200, 703 ft/lbs Muzzle, 539 ft/lbs @ 100 (23.3% loss)

BTW, These numbers are not biased; They are directly from BB's website: http://www.buffalobore.com/

Both test guns were 5" barrels for the advertised ballistics. Obvioulsy, those numbers will change slightly with different guns and barrel lengths, but regardless, unless the loads are coming out of a rifle, both cartridges are running out of steam to get the job done that far out. Lighter bullets are going to suffer even more.

And for the record, the word is spelled infantile.

357 Terms
July 22, 2011, 04:36 AM
Ughh.. part of the humor was the mis-spelling. There is plenty of game that a 357 or 10mm would be effective on at 100yrds, groundhogs,varmits of all kinds! I would not hesitate for a second to take a shot at 100yrds on a fat groundhog. LOL a 357 or 10mm would work great! ... as long as you could hit it.

SharpsDressedMan
July 22, 2011, 10:46 AM
Groundhogs are small targets for pistols at 100 yards, and they better be in the open. I was thinking deer, and I'm good to abut 60-75 yards with the two (.357 & 10mm), but capable shot placement at 100 (with open sights) is out for me, because I don't want to be too likely to wound and not anchor, so that is why I don't consider them 100 yard guns. A peripheral hit at 100 with a gun that just lost 25% or more power, and was marginal to many at best at the muzzle is not a good idea.

MachIVshooter
July 22, 2011, 11:05 AM
as long as you could hit it.

That's the tough part in real-world conditions. This spring we were hog hunting, I was out walking, trying to kick up some hogs during the middle of the day. It was hot, and I knew the range would be close, so I only took my 1006, rather than hump around my AR-10 or 11-87. Well, we also had turkey tags, and 3 toms came trotting up the path ahead of me. They stopped 70-80 yards away, and then started walking off the path to avoid me. I drew a bead and fired at one when he stopped momentarily. Knocked a few feathers off, but failed to bag him.

Perhaps not the most responsible shot to take, but we weren't having much luck, and I really wanted to bring something home.

Anyway, point is, the gun is plenty accurate to have taken the animal, but an off-hand shot at 80 yards in the field with a pistol (especially when you've been walking) is not easy. I don't think it would have made any difference if I'd been carrying my Limited or my 686.

DesertFox
July 22, 2011, 01:50 PM
I regularly shoot both 10mm and .357. My name is Desert Fox and I am a 10mm-aholic. However, I am a reloader too so ammo availability is a non-issue. If I didn't reload, I'd lean in favor of the .357 due to more widely available ammo. OTOH, since I'm a (old) reloader, I prefer revolvers so that I don't have to police/chase my brass. Both the 10mm and .357 revolvers I shoot are plenty accurate with the power nod going to 10mm. Talk of 100 yard shots with either caliber in a pistol seems a bit suspect, perhaps bar-room talk or alcohol induced... Self defense from either 2 or 4 legged critters is going to happen at an arms length, not 100 yards.

As pointed out, intended purpose is critical. 2 legged critters? 4 legged critters? MT? AK? All present special needs. While I've felt plenty comfortable with a G29, G20 or various .357 revolvers, my current MT backup is a S&W 629PC .44 Mag. If I was in AK, I would pack my Mossberg 590 12 gauge. A good idea to hunt/hike with pepper spray and a flare gun when anticipating encounters...

Both 10mm and .357 benefit greatly from the longer barrel lengths... But we're talking handguns, no?

ZeSpectre
July 22, 2011, 09:42 PM
Talk of 100 yard shots with either caliber in a pistol seems a bit suspect
On an average day I can take a 6" Ruger Security Six with .357 Magnums and with 10 rounds I can regularly hit 4-5 clay pigeons set out at 100 yards.

Same thing with my full sized Witness 10mm and my CZ-75B in .40 S&W.

On an exceptional day I can consistently hit 7 and once in a blue moon 8 out of 10 with ten rounds though a "clean sweep" still eludes me.

I have witnesses who will back me up on this. It most certainly can be done. :D

One truly exceptional "in the groove" day I managed to hit 6 of 10 clay pigeons at 150 yards with a friend's short little Kimber Stainless Ultra Carry II (though that was more like an artillery exercise than straight shooting due to how much holdover I had to use). Sadly I have yet to replicate that little feat though I keep trying!

psyshack
July 22, 2011, 11:47 PM
I've been reading this thread from the start. IMHO this pee match is embarrassing to me.

I'm a avid .357 reloader and shooter. Retail stuff sucks. I'm also a past and soon to be again 10mm shooter. And it will be a FS G20 and stippled out. It will never fire a round out of the OEM barrel. It will be a 10mm war horse! And be a 9x25 Dillion long range button buster.

To each there own. I'll take a 10mm any day over a .357.

Stevie-Ray
July 23, 2011, 08:22 PM
Its dying because there really isn't a place/need for it . I would much rather carry a sub-compact 40 than a compact 10. As for a hunting/field gun the 357 is better. If I need more than 6 357's in the field than I need a rifle.As has been said the 10mm is more popular than ever and seems to be getting more popular by the day. Not so the .357 mag. If anything, of the 2, I'd say the .357 is dying the slow death. Too many people like me out there that have no time for revolvers.

357 Terms
July 24, 2011, 09:41 AM
^^ the 357 mag dying!??? ughhh... I give up.

Harley Quinn
July 24, 2011, 10:42 AM
The 357 mag is for the revolver folks as a rule:what: Old reliable:)

10mm and 357 SIG, pistol people...

My choice would be to go with the pistol:D

Regards

CraigC
July 24, 2011, 12:59 PM
If anything, of the 2, I'd say the .357 is dying the slow death.
I don't care a thing for .357 handguns but this is the silliest thing I've heard in a while.

baylorattorney
July 24, 2011, 03:47 PM
10mm. I can fire it all day and not get the pain in my ears from firing .357 magnum once.

Stevie-Ray
July 24, 2011, 04:52 PM
I don't care a thing for .357 handguns but this is the silliest thing I've heard in a while. Not any sillier than the comment you just made or the original. Fact is the 10mm is getting more popular, all the while the .357 is leaving the PDs in droves and being sold by everyone in my area at a loss, because they now prefer autos or the light pocket revolvers of which nobody wants .357. And personally I don't think the Coonan will help matters.

357 Terms
July 24, 2011, 07:40 PM
^ The 357 mag has been a distant memory in just about every police dept. in this country for almost 20 yrs, yet to say its dying is ridiculous! There are more MODELS available in 357 than EVER before! There is NO doubt about that! Do a little research and try to find out how many different manufactures/models of 357 are available, ... its overwhelming!

CraigC
July 25, 2011, 03:08 PM
The .357 has long been on the downslope in the law enforcement community. However, it continues to be one of the most popular handgun cartridges of all time. It's more popular now than ever before. To say that it is "dying a slow death", is to throw all your credibility out the window. I smell a strong lack of perspective and a weird belief that everyone has given up their revolvers to shoot automatics. Maybe you should get out more???

2zulu1
July 26, 2011, 02:15 AM
Smith & Wesson was asked to design and put into production this .357mag platform for LE use;

http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Weapons/Articles/2008/05/Smith-Wesson-327-TRR8-Revolver.aspx

Both Speer and Winchester manufacture bonded ammunition for the .357mag and Speer will be adding 140gr Gold Dots for the mag in the near future to complement their family of 125gr, 135gr, 158gr and 170gr GDs.

Personally, I carry the mag more often than the 10mm, that includes the M327 TRR8 as mentioned in the above article. For practical use, more ranchers and farmers in the area I live carry, and use, the .357mag/.44mag more than the non-existant 10mm. If a situation develops outside the .357mag/.38Super carry, I bypass both my G20s and carry a M29 Mountain.

I enjoy reloading and shooting all 4 calibers mentioned above; however, when the dust settles, the 10mm is loaded with bullets designed for .40 S&W velocities. Complicating things is the 10mm does not have a real world database for personal defense shootings to determine its effectiveness.

I wish Speer would develop a shallow cavity Gold Dot that would hold up to velocities that the 10mm is capable of.

Bob

IdahoLT1
July 26, 2011, 03:30 AM
I enjoy reloading and shooting all 4 calibers mentioned above; however, when the dust settles, the 10mm is loaded with bullets designed for .40 S&W velocities. Complicating things is the 10mm does not have a real world database for personal defense shootings to determine its effectiveness.

This makes no sense. Youre talking about a 200fps difference when comparing the velocities of 40S&W and 10mm in every bullet weight. I HIGHLY doubt an extra 200fps is going to make a significant difference in a bullets performance. If that were the case, I could argue the .357 loses the advantage of being able to be used in a 8" revolver for increased velocity since certain bullets weights are designed to be used in a 4" gun. Again, that argument doesnt hold any water.

GMHAYESUSN
July 26, 2011, 06:38 AM
I have a Auto Ord 1911 in 10MM auto and love it over any of the revolvers ive owned over the years and on my pre deployment leave i went to impact guns in ogden and tried 150 rounds throught a smith 1076 and was pretty impressed with it

MachIVshooter
July 26, 2011, 09:31 AM
I enjoy reloading and shooting all 4 calibers mentioned above; however, when the dust settles, the 10mm is loaded with bullets designed for .40 S&W velocities. Complicating things is the 10mm does not have a real world database for personal defense shootings to determine its effectiveness.

180's work pretty well at 1,400 FPS (I use Golden Sabres) , and 200+ are specifically designed for 10mm. If you want a controlled expansion bullet with good penetration for your 10mm, try the 200 gr. XTP.

And that "real world database" is bunk. For all the effort M&S put into it, it still amounts to nothing more than a humongous pile of anecdotes. In another thread, I demonstrated where some of their data shows a .32 ACP as being more effective than a .44 Mag. There are also loads that they showed as having greater than 100% effectiveness; How is that possible?

Is the 10mm a more effective defense cartridge than .40 S&W? Probably not, there are probably very few instances in which the increased power realizes any benefit on a human target. Why, then, do I carry one? Well, I have big hands, so 10mm guns tend to fit me better than .40 S&W models, and the capacity is the same. And I doubt anyone involved in a defensive shooting ever wished for a less potent cartridge.

One can reasonably deduce that the 10mm will be at least as effective as the .40 S&W.

The .40 S&W is to the 10mm what the .308 is to the .30-06; A cartridge developed to fit ina shorter action and achieve similar ballistics with the light to mid-weight bullets. Of course, the degree of separation between 10mm & .40 is greater than that between .30-06 and .308. No one is arguing that the .308 is more effective than the .30-06, so why then, would some suggest that the 10mm is not as good as the .40? Does not compute. Unless your hands don't fit the larger frame or you always buy factory ammo and cost is a concern, the 10mm makes more sense in a given platform.

tinygnat219
July 26, 2011, 09:42 AM
The .357 has long been on the downslope in the law enforcement community. However, it continues to be one of the most popular handgun cartridges of all time. It's more popular now than ever before. To say that it is "dying a slow death", is to throw all your credibility out the window. I smell a strong lack of perspective and a weird belief that everyone has given up their revolvers to shoot automatics. Maybe you should get out more???

No need to get absurd here. Remember that this is The High Road. The fact is, revolver ownership and use has been falling year by year. They've made up something like 17% of all new gun sales by year for the past couple of years. It's effectively dead in Law Enforcement, with the exception of Back Up Guns and some specialized SWAT use especially when you consider that it was the Gold Standard 20-25 years ago. I don't know about the .357 Magnum cartridge itself "dying a slow death", especially considering the number of guns still produced each year and all the older guns still out there but its use has definitely declined over the years. I don't see it or the .38 SPL going the way of the .44 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 SPL, or other revolvers and their cartridges.

CraigC
July 26, 2011, 01:18 PM
I don't see it or the .38 SPL going the way of the .44 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 SPL, or other revolvers and their cartridges.
What exactly is this supposed to mean? You auto shooters really need to get out more. Methinks you guys seriously lack perspective.

MachIVshooter
July 26, 2011, 01:20 PM
I don't see it or the .38 SPL going the way of the .44 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 SPL, or other revolvers and their cartridges.

.357/.38 spl are by far the most popular revolver cartridges, but .44 Mag is also still quite popular, and .44 spl. will be around as long as the mag is. In fact, I'll be picking up my Charter Bulldog Pug .44 spl. in the next day or two.

.41 mag has always had a steady but unspectacular following. That's probably not going to change, but I don't think it'll fade into obsolescence any time soon, either. That said, I see little use for it, since I already own .357 and .44 caliber guns, which eclipse the .41 mag on both ends with their flexibility.

Interestingly, the .41 has a similar history to the 10mm WRT law enforcement. Unlike the .41, though, the 10mm offers increased perfromance and capacity over it's predecessor that is chambered in the same size guns; .41 requires the same large frame as .44, so there's little reason for most to opt for the more obscure and less powerful round. This is why 10mm has a much more solid foothold in the market and continues to increase in popularity, while the .41 is doing what it has been for nearly 50 years; Just hanging in there.

2zulu1
July 26, 2011, 05:08 PM
This makes no sense. Youre talking about a 200fps difference when comparing the velocities of 40S&W and 10mm in every bullet weight. I HIGHLY doubt an extra 200fps is going to make a significant difference in a bullets performance. If that were the case, I could argue the .357 loses the advantage of being able to be used in a 8" revolver for increased velocity since certain bullets weights are designed to be used in a 4" gun. Again, that argument doesnt hold any water.
Is your statement based upon experience or opinion?

I've loaded and tested both the 10mm and .357mag to very fast velocities, there's an obvious advantage to the .357mag shooting high velocity bullets.

As an example, this 180gr Gold Dot came apart ~1300fps;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/10mm180GDfrag003.jpg

Dropping the MV down to 1267fps and against a very tough bone barrier, the 180gr GD performed much better;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/10mm180GD1267fpssteelbone0_582004.jpg

I've done a lot of bullet testing, including 10mm with 6" barrels, sometimes you'll get nice expansion and sometimes bullets will fall apart, like this 155gr XTP in the high 1500s;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/10mm155XTP1570fps006.jpg

Hornady's published data shows the velocity design window for the 10mm/155gr XTP is 850fps to 1300fps

At 1420fps, this 155gr Gold Dot over expanded resulting in diminutive penetration, clearly beyond its velocity design window;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/10mm155GD1420fps007.jpg

As you can see, the deep cavity 155gr GD is not designed for fast velocities, unlike the Gold Dots designed for the .357mag's velocities that include lever action carbines.

Bob

MachIVshooter
July 26, 2011, 05:42 PM
As an example, this 180gr Gold Dot came apart ~1300fps...........Dropping the MV down to 1267fps and against a very tough bone barrier, the 180gr GD performed much better;

I submit to you that the different medium was the cause of the results, not the ~40 FPS velocity change. That's barely more than standard deviation within a batch. It's also an overpressure load for .40 S&W.

I'll cuncur that 165 and lower are best suited to the more moderate .40 S&W velocities, but the 180's and up in real test mediums perform quite well at 10mm velocities.

Gold dots also tend to exhibit violent expansion in almost any caliber, even at moderate velocities. That includes .357". Golden Sabres, Sierra's and XTP's are much better for higher velocity use.

2zulu1
July 26, 2011, 06:11 PM
180's work pretty well at 1,400 FPS (I use Golden Sabres) , and 200+ are specifically designed for 10mm. If you want a controlled expansion bullet with good penetration for your 10mm, try the 200 gr. XTP.

And that "real world database" is bunk. For all the effort M&S put into it, it still amounts to nothing more than a humongous pile of anecdotes. In another thread, I demonstrated where some of their data shows a .32 ACP as being more effective than a .44 Mag. There are also loads that they showed as having greater than 100% effectiveness; How is that possible?

Is the 10mm a more effective defense cartridge than .40 S&W? Probably not, there are probably very few instances in which the increased power realizes any benefit on a human target. Why, then, do I carry one? Well, I have big hands, so 10mm guns tend to fit me better than .40 S&W models, and the capacity is the same. And I doubt anyone involved in a defensive shooting ever wished for a less potent cartridge.

One can reasonably deduce that the 10mm will be at least as effective as the .40 S&W.

The .40 S&W is to the 10mm what the .308 is to the .30-06; A cartridge developed to fit ina shorter action and achieve similar ballistics with the light to mid-weight bullets. Of course, the degree of separation between 10mm & .40 is greater than that between .30-06 and .308. No one is arguing that the .308 is more effective than the .30-06, so why then, would some suggest that the 10mm is not as good as the .40? Does not compute. Unless your hands don't fit the larger frame or you always buy factory ammo and cost is a concern, the 10mm makes more sense in a given platform.
We agree on M&S. One of my issues with the 10mm is; where's the feedback on OIS for those LEAs who carry the 10mm? By comparison, forum members (North Caroline SP and Texas DPS) on other boards have great praise for the .357SIG/125gr Gold Dots for penetrating auto glass.

Yes, I like the 10mm/180gr Golden Sabers also. One of the more remarkable barrier tests I did about 6 years ago was with this combination against a ~1/8" to 3/16" steel barrier at a very shallow angle - no deflection;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/10mmpeelbacksoftsteelplus4waterjugs.jpg

About 1370fps and here's the gaping hole caused by the GS;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/Bottles2-410mm180grGSgapingsteelhol.jpg

I like what I've seen thus far with your EAA 10mm reports.

Design velocity window comparisons from Hornady data regarding their XTPs;

10mm 155gr - 850fps to 1300fps _ sectional density .138
.357mag 158gr HP - 700fps to 1400fps
.357mag 158gr FP - 1150fps to 1800fps _ sectional density .177

10mm 180gr - 750fps to 1450fps _ sectional density .161
.357mag 180gr - 900 to 1700fps _ sectional density .202

10mm 200gr - 700fps to 1200fps _ sectional density .179

The forward half of this 165gr Gold Dot blew off high 1200s to low 1300s;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/40cal165GD1500fps016.jpg

At 1492fps (M686/6") this 158gr Gold Dot lost 22grs as it blew out the back of a bleached out cow bone;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/357mag158grGDcowlegbone1492fps011.jpg

No deflection;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/357mag158grGDcowlegbone1492fps015.jpg

In a later test, I shot a 10mm/200gr XTP ~1220fps into the bone knuckle causing total bone fragmentation and only very small pieces of lead/bullet jacket were recovered.

I have both a G20 and G20 SF, plus a 6" KKM barrel that can put up nice velocity numbers, but the 686 shoots a lot softer, plus it has a very smooth target trigger that's a plus during fast double action shooting.

Bob

2zulu1
July 26, 2011, 06:18 PM
I submit to you that the different medium was the cause of the results, not the ~40 FPS velocity change. That's barely more than standard deviation within a batch. It's also an overpressure load for .40 S&W.

I'll cuncur that 165 and lower are best suited to the more moderate .40 S&W velocities, but the 180's and up in real test mediums perform quite well at 10mm velocities.

Gold dots also tend to exhibit violent expansion in almost any caliber, even at moderate velocities. That includes .357". Golden Sabres, Sierra's and XTP's are much better for higher velocity use.
180gr GD same medium, 0.614";

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/10mm180GD1267fps008.jpg

10mm/180gr Nosler 0.720" mid 1264s

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/10mm180Nosler1264fps004.jpg

.357mag/180gr Partition, MV 1292fps, 0.637";

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/357mag180grPartition1292fps012jpg.jpg

It appears that high 1200s to low 1300s is the velocity window when a number of 10mm/180s begin to come apart; therefore, targeting mid 1200s gets better expansion reliability.

As a comparison, we experimented with 124gr XTPs (.357SIG and .38Super) to ascertain their upper velocity range. What we tested in water, to capture and measure the bullet's expansion/weight) was confirmed in real world feral goat culling. With the 124gr XTP, they begin to come apart in the upper 1300s to low 1400s, keep them mid 1300s and they are reliable expanders.

I don't have feral goats to cull with the 10mm, but I see a parallel between 9mm design bullets at upper .357SIG/.38Super velocities and the .40/10mm.

Anyway, here's a .357mag/125gr Golden Saber that held together with excellent expansion, 1521fps and 0.613"

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/357mag125GoldenSaber15214layerdenim004jpg.jpg

Bob

357 Terms
July 26, 2011, 07:13 PM
The bottom line is this: there are very few bullets designed specifically for the 10mm and its velocities. I agree with Mach4 that 180grn and higher is Ideal for the 10, yet there is not much of a choice. The 40S&W with 155 and 165grn bullets is just about as effective for self defense, so why bother? The 357 wins because of better sectional density, versatility, platform, availability and flat out performance. Please dont get me wrong but; the 10mm is a powerful auto caliber, it just doesn't really have a place.

SharpsDressedMan
July 26, 2011, 09:58 PM
The 10mm still beats the .357 in comparebly sized guns for concealment. There is a place for something like that. I can pack a 10mm 1911 or Glock 20 more easily and comfortably than a 4" .357. The .357 just gets too big to gain any power advantage over the 10mm. Plus, I'm sure there are a few 10mm bullets that can hold together under the upper end velocities of the 10mm, but, until we get one verified, try the 200XTP or perhaps the Nosler 180gr.

481
July 26, 2011, 11:59 PM
2Z1-

Nice pictures and well presented. I'd be surprised to see less.

Did we ever T&E the 200 gr. XTP in the 10mm?

2zulu1
July 27, 2011, 01:25 AM
2Z1-

Nice pictures and well presented. I'd be surprised to see less.

Did we ever T&E the 200 gr. XTP in the 10mm?
I've tested the 10mm/200gr XTP a number of times in different situations. The test we evaluated was when both the large leg bone and bullet literally blew up. Personally, I would not carry the 10mm/200gr XTP on the trail because I've witnessed a number of case/core separations upon bullets hitting small branches that resulted deflection/keyholing - the same can be said for a number of non-bonded JHP bullets. For trail, the 200gr WFNGC would be a better choice IMO if one wants to carry the 10mm.

For the .357mag/180gr, in addition to the XTP, both Nosler Partition and Swift A-frame bullets are premium designs available to hunters; plus there's also the 170gr Gold Dot FP and Remington 165gr Core Lokt.

Bob

Harley Quinn
July 27, 2011, 09:59 AM
2zulu1,
Thanks for all the show and tell:)

Regards

CraigC
July 27, 2011, 12:10 PM
I've tested the 10mm/200gr XTP a number of times in different situations. The test we evaluated was when both the large leg bone and bullet literally blew up. Personally, I would not carry the 10mm/200gr XTP on the trail because I've witnessed a number of case/core separations upon bullets hitting small branches that resulted deflection/keyholing - the same can be said for a number of non-bonded JHP bullets. For trail, the 200gr WFNGC would be a better choice IMO if one wants to carry the 10mm.
This seems to not be exclusive to the 10mm but other XTP's as well. Some do well, some don't. After seeing what the 180gr Gold Dot does at 1500fps, I am very leery of using it on critters and figured the XTP might be a better choice. I guess not. What we need is a good 200gr Gold Dot JSP that will behave like the 270gr .44 bullet, rather than a cavernous JHP. Although I do have some 200gr LBT's from Beartooth that I haven't tried yet.

I have experienced total jacket/core separation with Hornady's 300gr .405 bullet. Had one blow up on a doe's shoulder and promptly switched to Woodleighs.

481
July 27, 2011, 12:36 PM
I've tested the 10mm/200gr XTP a number of times in different situations. The test we evaluated was when both the large leg bone and bullet literally blew up. Personally, I would not carry the 10mm/200gr XTP on the trail because I've witnessed a number of case/core separations upon bullets hitting small branches that resulted deflection/keyholing - the same can be said for a number of non-bonded JHP bullets. For trail, the 200gr WFNGC would be a better choice IMO if one wants to carry the 10mm.

For the .357mag/180gr, in addition to the XTP, both Nosler Partition and Swift A-frame bullets are premium designs available to hunters; plus there's also the 170gr Gold Dot FP and Remington 165gr Core Lokt.

Bob
OK, that's why I couldn't find the results on our spreadsheet. Nothing to jog my memory and I do remember it now even though it was a while back. For some reason I thought that we had 4LD baselined that one at some point.

Have to admit that my favorite test was when you turned that 10mm 155 gr Gold Dot danged near inside-out. While it was a "failure", I still enjoyed since the "little kid" in me still has a thing for "fireworks". :cool:

Bama5.0
August 18, 2011, 12:57 PM
I know this thread has been dead for a couple of weeks, but I have done a bunch of 10mm bullet testing that I believe would interest most of you. I found this thread searching for 155gr Gold Dot expansion pictures, as I'm about to test it. I have tested almost every SD .400" bullet out there (I've got several left, and will keep going as long as I can find more new bullets to test). I used my Glock 29 for all of the testing, and every bullet was pushed as fast as possible without blowing up my gun. My goal was to see which bullets could handle 10mm velocities. I know the G20 would have been better for achieving huge velocities, but I wanted to see which bullets were the best for self defense, and the G29 is the more practical platform for SD use. Plus, it's all I had when I started. Besides, I pushed these bullets pretty hard. I got some good velocity for most out of the little 3.78" barrel.

The medium I used was wax. If you've ever seen The Bullet Test Tube, it's very similar, just homemade. It's about a 55/45 mixture of paraffin wax/Vaseline. The reason wax is good is because it captures not only penetration and the bullet, but also captures the wound cavity. Upon cross-section, it lets you view the actual wound profile. This cannot be done with other media. By examining professional gelatin penetration results from the same gun, and comparing them with my data, it seems penetration in gelatin is about 1.8 times greater. So, 10" of penetration in my wax tube would equate to roughly 18" in ballistic gelatin.

Anyway, here's a link to Glock Talk, where I've posted all the work/data. I hope it helps you guys decide on a good 10mm bullet. My name over there is 21Carrier.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1340792

EDIT: By the way, if you just check it out quickly, it's best to skip ahead to the later pages. The first few tests were not as good, as I was perfecting my technique. Later tests were better. So, if the first few look like crap, skip ahead and check out the later tests.

Here are the bullet's I've tested (off the top of my head):
-125gr Barnes TAC-XP
-135gr Nosler JHP
-135gr Sierra JHP
-135gr Pow'RBall (reloaded to 1500fps, factory will be tested soon)
-150gr Nosler JHP
-155gr Silvertip (twice, with two different loads)
-155gr XTP
-156gr Lyman Cast Devastator HP
-165gr Golden Saber
-165gr Gold Dot
-175gr Silvertip (both factory and hot reloaded)
-180gr XTP
-180gr XTP (modified for greater expansion)
-180gr Gold Dot
-180gr PDX1 Bonded
-180gr Rainier Plated HP
-200gr Black Talon (reloaded hot)
-200gr XTP
-200gr XTP (modified for greater expansion)
-200gr Double Tap WFNGC (hand-loaded, not DT factory)
-And I'm sure I forgot about one or two. I still have a factory 135gr Pow'RBall to test, a 180gr Starfire, a 155gr Gold Dot, and I've worked the 125gr Barnes TAC-XP up to a much higher velocity, so I will retest it soon.

I recorded penetration, wound cavity diameter, retained mass, expansion, velocity, etc. for each bullet/load. Some of the above bullets are not available as components, so I pulled them from either 10mm or .40S&W ammo. Anyway, hope it helps.

Also, I rarely come to THR, and I had forgotten I had even registered here a while back. Not that it's not a great forum, it's just that I have lots of people I know at GlockTalk, so I usually spend time over there. If you have a question or a bullet test request, let me know. If I don't answer on here, it's just that I forgot to check back. If that happens, PM me at GT, and I'll respond.

Rob Malins
August 22, 2011, 07:06 PM
I am buying an STI Perfect 10 next week. It comes with a 6 inch Schumann barrel. I want to shoot suppressed occasionally, but don't know where to find a match grade 6.5 inch barrel to accept the threading. Can anyone advise me on this?

303tom
August 22, 2011, 09:21 PM
.357 Mag. is a little faster.

Super Sneaky Steve
August 22, 2011, 10:06 PM
If I bought a 10mm it might make me go broke. The .357 is fun, cheap and is the best proven man stopper (as in dead people not jelly or any other test).

2zulu1
August 23, 2011, 02:01 PM
I know this thread has been dead for a couple of weeks, but I have done a bunch of 10mm bullet testing that I believe would interest most of you. I found this thread searching for 155gr Gold Dot expansion pictures, as I'm about to test it. I have tested almost every SD .400" bullet out there (I've got several left, and will keep going as long as I can find more new bullets to test). I used my Glock 29 for all of the testing, and every bullet was pushed as fast as possible without blowing up my gun. My goal was to see which bullets could handle 10mm velocities. I know the G20 would have been better for achieving huge velocities, but I wanted to see which bullets were the best for self defense, and the G29 is the more practical platform for SD use. Plus, it's all I had when I started. Besides, I pushed these bullets pretty hard. I got some good velocity for most out of the little 3.78" barrel.

The medium I used was wax. If you've ever seen The Bullet Test Tube, it's very similar, just homemade. It's about a 55/45 mixture of paraffin wax/Vaseline. The reason wax is good is because it captures not only penetration and the bullet, but also captures the wound cavity. Upon cross-section, it lets you view the actual wound profile. This cannot be done with other media. By examining professional gelatin penetration results from the same gun, and comparing them with my data, it seems penetration in gelatin is about 1.8 times greater. So, 10" of penetration in my wax tube would equate to roughly 18" in ballistic gelatin.

Anyway, here's a link to Glock Talk, where I've posted all the work/data. I hope it helps you guys decide on a good 10mm bullet. My name over there is 21Carrier.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1340792

EDIT: By the way, if you just check it out quickly, it's best to skip ahead to the later pages. The first few tests were not as good, as I was perfecting my technique. Later tests were better. So, if the first few look like crap, skip ahead and check out the later tests.

Here are the bullet's I've tested (off the top of my head):
-125gr Barnes TAC-XP
-135gr Nosler JHP
-135gr Sierra JHP
-135gr Pow'RBall (reloaded to 1500fps, factory will be tested soon)
-150gr Nosler JHP
-155gr Silvertip (twice, with two different loads)
-155gr XTP
-156gr Lyman Cast Devastator HP
-165gr Golden Saber
-165gr Gold Dot
-175gr Silvertip (both factory and hot reloaded)
-180gr XTP
-180gr XTP (modified for greater expansion)
-180gr Gold Dot
-180gr PDX1 Bonded
-180gr Rainier Plated HP
-200gr Black Talon (reloaded hot)
-200gr XTP
-200gr XTP (modified for greater expansion)
-200gr Double Tap WFNGC (hand-loaded, not DT factory)
-And I'm sure I forgot about one or two. I still have a factory 135gr Pow'RBall to test, a 180gr Starfire, a 155gr Gold Dot, and I've worked the 125gr Barnes TAC-XP up to a much higher velocity, so I will retest it soon.

I recorded penetration, wound cavity diameter, retained mass, expansion, velocity, etc. for each bullet/load. Some of the above bullets are not available as components, so I pulled them from either 10mm or .40S&W ammo. Anyway, hope it helps.

Also, I rarely come to THR, and I had forgotten I had even registered here a while back. Not that it's not a great forum, it's just that I have lots of people I know at GlockTalk, so I usually spend time over there. If you have a question or a bullet test request, let me know. If I don't answer on here, it's just that I forgot to check back. If that happens, PM me at GT, and I'll respond.
Are you saying the illustrated paraffin/vaseline wound cavity equals comminution in soft tissue?

Austinguy23
August 23, 2011, 03:28 PM
If you look at the shooting statistics, the .357 Magnum is the absolute king. In fact, the only thing the two ballistics camps (jello junkies vs morgue monsters) can agree on is that the 125 grain .357 Magnum has superior ballistics over all calibers.

The 10mm is an impressive round but it tends to over-penetrate. I'd be very careful with ammo selection should you go that route...

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