January 19, 2004, 11:37 PM
Ok, so, i was thinking about a high caliber, inexpensive bolt action, and I have a thing for old guns...so I read up on the Mosin Nagants.
During my research it said that all pre-1938 Mosin rifles were designed to be shot with the bayonet on, and without it they would have to be 're-zeroed'. I have no idea what this means. To me, zeroing in on a target basically means 'aiming'. I assumed they mean adjusting the sights and such :confused:
What do they mean? I don't see how the bayonet would affect the trajectory or direction of the bullet. All it would do is make the gun heavier for the soldier, right?
Anyway, will I have to deal with this somehow if I get a pre-1938 Mosin Nagant? Those pre WWII rifles are pretty nice, and I like the bayonets, very old timey:D
January 19, 2004, 11:49 PM
Oh, btw the ones I looked at were anywhere from 1930 through 1938, I didn't want to get anything TOO old
January 19, 2004, 11:51 PM
The only thing I've heard about this is that M-44's were sometimes zeroed with the bayonet folded out. The M-44's are the only Mosins with a built-on bayonet, so they're the only ones this comes up on. The others were to my knowledge NOT designed to be shot with the bayonet on.
Zeroing with tangent sights means ensuring that the various settings match the point of impact of the bullet from whatever ball loading they were setting the tangents to. Mosin carbines in my experience aren't too finely adjusted. The M-39 Finns are better shooters, as are the pre-war 91/30's.
January 20, 2004, 12:12 AM
My M-44 shoots dead on with the bayonet out. Low and a little to the right with the bayonet folded in. I believe the M-44's were sighted in with 147gr ammo. Other ammo might change point-of-aim. I know for sure the Russians sighted their M-44's with the bayonet out. My M-44 is Hungarian. I think mine is sighted in with the bayonet out also.
January 20, 2004, 12:55 AM
I hope I can clear things up a bit for you and not confuse you even more :o .
The long (about 48" or so) mosin nagants available in a lot of places right now are called Mosin Nagant 91/30. That means it's the 1891 rifle model redesigned in 1930. According to what I read somewhere on a dedicated website, those rifles were sighted in with the bayonet attached at the factory. Imagine a superbig, superstrong vise holding the rifle so it can't move one bit, even when shot. Then they drift the front sight post so that the "point of aim" (POA) matches the "point of impact" (POI). That way, when a human uses the rifle later, (assuming he or she has the requisite skill) they can in theory trust that the sights are properly aligned. "Sighting in" and "zeroing in" are terms often used interchangably. All this was reportedly done with bayonets attached because the idea was that the soldiers would be fighting with the bayonets attached so they should sight in the rifles that way. Since the bayonets fit over the end of the barrels, that weight and contact with the barrel affects its harmonics just enough to change POI.
So what does that mean to you today, buying a milsurp rifle? Well, let's say you buy a MN 91/30 but at your local shooting range, they don't allow you to attach the bayonet ("Watch that pigsticker, you'll put someone's eye out!") but you still want to shoot your rifle. Easy. Bring sandbags, a brass punch, and a hammer. Set your target up at 25 yards and take your time firing a three shot group off a bench using the sandbags as a rest (BTW, a spotting scope and Shoot-N-C's help a lot, saving time and possibly ammo). Let's say all three holes are very close to each other, but 6-8" to the right of where you are aiming. Make sure the rifle is unloaded and leave the action open, then use the brass punch and hammer to knock the front sight to the right. You always move the front sight to the right if you are missing to the right, and to the left when you are missing to the left. Repeat the process of shooting, looking, and adjusting until POI equals POA. Then move out to 50 yards and repeat. Finally, go out to 100 yards and do it one more time. That should be good enough, and then just enjoy the rifle. It's actually pretty easy and you will have the satisfaction of personally sighting in your own rifle. Of my six milsurp rifles, only one came to me with the sights already set up where I didn't have to adjust them.
The M38 is a shorter version of the M91/30 and was intended as a handy rifle for artillarymen and other troops whose main job didn't involve a rifle. If they came under attack, they could defend themselves with it, but they weren't gonna do any bayonet charges so the M38 had no bayonet. That doesn't garantee that if you get a M38 it will be already zeroed for you, you may still have to do it yourself but as I said, it's easy.
Also, the introduction of the M38 in 1938 did not mean they stopped making M91/30's, I just got a M91/30 a few weeks ago and it's dated 1942. The M44 are basically an M38 with a side-folding bayonet and introduced in 1944 (notice a pattern ;) ?). IINM, this was because they realized that 1000 yard volley fire was not a big part of modern warfare and a shorter, handier rifle was more useful in the close encounters many soldiers faced, and these soldiers needed bayonets.
FWIW, the bayonet I got with my 91/30 is currently sitting in the bubble wrap I got it in. All I did was unwrap it, look at it (it's like a giant philips screwdriver you wouldn't ever want to get stuck by :what: ) and put back in the wrap.
I agree with Cosmoline, the Finnish M39 is my favorite design because there are a lot of nice little touches the Finns added to make it better. And some of the pre-war (hex reciever) 91/30's are very nice too. I saw some 91/30's at Big 5 sporting goods that were so nice it was hard to pass them up for those low prices ;) . HTH.
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