Women = more deadly force more often?


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twoblink
January 27, 2003, 03:29 AM
It's something that Oleg and myself have discussed before; and it seems to bring itself into the light with the recent theft problem in my neighborhood.

Because most women are generally smaller in stature then men, they seem to have no choice (often times) but to use deadly force.. If the perp is the same size as me, and I caught him offguard, I will more than likely win a hand-to-hand struggle, as I'll probably be equal in strength and probably better skilled at HtH CQB..

The jury is still out for me, to whether or not the fact that I don't consider deadly force as my first available course of action; will come back to haunt me or not...

Maybe I watch to many movies, but you know, the good guy always lets the bad guy live, and so the bad guy ends up shooting or stabbing his wife, and THEN the good guy shoots him...

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HS/LD
January 27, 2003, 03:52 AM
Yep shoot first worry about the other stuff later

HS/LD

Navy joe
January 27, 2003, 04:15 AM
I think you're right, it's the small dog syndrome. Nicest people you'll ever meet are about 6'5" 350lbs with retard strength. They don't have to be mean, nobody will pick on them. Just like most pit bulls I meet are very sweet. Only dog that ever bit me was a evil little weiner dog.

The small creatures have two things going against them. First is they will get singled out for special attention more often than someone larger. Second, when they do they will have, or think they have, less options available to them in a force continum. Now if it's a lady you care about, tell her to shoot first and act real docile on the witness stand. :D

jmbg29
January 27, 2003, 04:20 AM
Better to be judged by 12, than carried by six.

Disclaimer: If you live in pinko-land AKA Kommiefornia, Chi-vote early, vote often-cago, Massachew:cuss: s et al., then all bets are off. You weren't really "living" anyway. Death at the hands of the parasites might come as blessing in that case.

twoblink
January 27, 2003, 05:00 AM
jmbg29,

You beat me to it. I was going to say, the advice given here, applies to everywhere outside of places like the PRK, PRNJ, PR-Chicago, PR-DC...

Shoot first and act docile on the witness stand? I'll have my hands full trying to get her to not cut off the guy's hands and hang them outside for the other thieves to see.. :D

Ed Brunner
January 27, 2003, 06:17 AM
You have a good point and don't forget it applies also to a lot of us old fogies with diminished strength and mobility aka running ability.

Tamara
January 27, 2003, 07:55 AM
You know, when that guy chased me into my apartment, and I threw down on him, and he ran off... You know what really kept me awake nights afterward? Suppose the next woman doesn't have a gun? :(

CatsDieNow
January 27, 2003, 07:55 AM
The only way I will walk away from a purely physical struggle with a grown man is if either he allows me to win, or if I have a tactical advantge.

I had a similar conversation at work and asked if I looked like I could take out a man in a "fair" fight. I am 5'8" and about 110 lbs...the answer is no.

anchored
January 27, 2003, 09:51 AM
But that should be a moot question - there's no reason to fight fair.

Oleg Volk
January 27, 2003, 10:19 AM
I susupect that the reason for the disparity (women having to resort to force earlier than men) is part false confidenc eont he part of the men. Anyone with even a minimal fighting skill can take out most men. Not subdue and kidnap, but hurt enough to incapacitate. Moreover, absence of a weapon on a weak-looking but hostile stranger may well mean that we have't seen the weapon. Once a person manifested hostile intentions at close range, I'd take his word/posture/actions as truth and react accordingly. Unless the hostile has no use of his limbs or is an infant, he can turn tables by producing unsuspected levels of hand-to-hand proficiency or a weapon. Goes as much for women as for me, if only because perps might be more optimistic about their chanced for success.

(FWIW, mom's instructions for dealing with any indruder is to open fire the moment line of sight is available and keep it up till the tall stack of loaded magazines is used up. Letting goblins get close is a recipe for trouble.)

CatsDieNow
January 27, 2003, 10:20 AM
Anchored - Exactly ;) Twoblink's question, however, was about options, and my opinion is that I don't have as many options as men do.

(note to self: Actually make thesis statment, THEN support assertantion)

Blackhawk
January 27, 2003, 11:02 AM
Read a report a couple of years ago about the REAL reason big guys don't pick on little guys. Oh, they say because it's not fair or sportsman like, but the REAL reason is that the big guy is just messing around while the little guy thinks he's getting killed, which causes the adrenaline rush and ends up with the big guy getting his clock cleaned.

Audie Murphy was a little guy, and some of the scrappiest ones in history are. Maybe they develop an "attitude" about fighting early on and learn how to do it while shucking the natural fear of battle.

No reason to think that the adrenaline thingy doesn't affect women too.

Jim March
January 27, 2003, 12:05 PM
Ahem :). As somebody 6'4" and 270ish pounds (and fairly nice, I think, but somebody upstairs forgot the "retard strength" part), perhaps I should comment :).

I don't run into trouble often. When I do, it's BIG trouble. Weapons, multiple crazies or both.

PATH
January 27, 2003, 12:20 PM
6'6'' and 315 and I wish you could have picked a better word than retard. I have found that it is the little fellas who are always starting nonsense. It is a pain in the neck when some fella feels he has to prove his manhood by taking you on. I usually just smile and walk away. Where would be the upside of staying and dealing with nonsense.

A woman really has to escalate force quickly because of strength and size limitations. A large man will defeat most women if he gets his hands on her. My brother used to say "you can't fight if you can't breathe". A woman cannot allow a physically stronger male close enough to use his strength advantage. Life is not a JAckie Chan movie.

I believe women should own firearms and use when necessary.

Oh by the way I never kid around with smaller fellas cause sometimes they get bent out of shape. No, I don't allow them or anyone else to clean my clock.:neener:

Lancel
January 27, 2003, 12:41 PM
"Never frighten a little man. He'll kill you". - Robert Heinlein

ie. Never frighten a little person. S/he'll kill you.

Larry

BerettaNut92
January 27, 2003, 03:50 PM
I like that Heinlein quote.

Or as I like to say, "What'll happen if I drop a 120lb bowling ball on your head?"

twoblink
January 27, 2003, 09:08 PM
PATH,

You are wrong, it doesn't even have to be a "sizable" male, most males will take down most females in HtH no problem.

Casing point, went to a Judo class. Messed around with the current female Judo champ of taiwan for her weight bracket; she's about my height, and has about 20 lbs on me. 7 years of judo, and me being my second class... I took her down.... It wasn't because I had more skills, but because I'm akinned to streetfighting, and I have a great wrestling background. She was stronger then me, probably faster, and more skilled at MA, but it didn't matter... Which is another problem... absent of weapons etc.. I really don't see how someone like my gf (5'2" 110lbs) has any chance against ANY male, I mean, short of Skunk, I can't imagine another guy she can actually beat up :D

Oleg, does that mean, you use maximum force as first option all the time? And tell your mom, like my grandma says when she's killing chickens for dinner, if it's still twitching, it's not dead!!

Navy joe
January 28, 2003, 02:17 AM
The "retard strength" comment was not aimed at anyone in particular, just a countryism I guess for the very big, traditionally rock dumb fellas one see. "That durn boy don know his own strength" Kinda like Bubba the cop tosser.

I can relate, I grew up small and learned to overcompensate for my lack of size and traditional strength. My favorite is realizing one day why life was hard on me. Used to tote as needed a modified floor jack around a race track. Been known to jog carrying one a few hundred yards while carrying five gallons of fuel. Got a newfangled aluminum jack one day, weighed it. 36 lbs. Hmm, weighed the old one. 98. I see. All as a 5'10" 120lb teenager. Wouldn't think of doing such today. Being small made me agressive and it carried over as I aged, same height of 6ft that I left high school at, only 70lbs heavier. My mind at times still functions as the undersized child rather than the larger than average fella.

What's been said is true, I know some truly mean people, they are all short. A life of being picked out and picked on toughens one up. Or turns them into a serial killer. ;) YMMV

tex_n_cal
January 28, 2003, 02:45 AM
Ya know, as much as I like watching Jennifer Garner on 'Alias':D I just shake my head whenever you see some slim model type like her beat up a guy who has a 100 lb weight advantage. Granted, these are fantasy shows, anyway, but I almost wonder if it feeds a false sense among young women that they can indeed fight most guys and win.

I haven't been in a fight since I was 13 or so - some 30 years ago. Being built like a 5'6" fire plug, I just don't look like a victim, I guess. It probably helps that I avoid sleazy bars and other bad places.

If a guy picked a fight with me I guess I would try to talk my way out of it. (No CCW yet) Three guys break down the front door? Col. Colt will speak shortly thereafter. Appropriate response to the threat.

Some guy starts roughing up a woman? Is she entitled to use deadly force? Yes she is! It's only reasonable.

twoblink
January 28, 2003, 03:08 AM
I use to hold the kick bags for my friend's TKD class if I show up. I have taken full thrust kicks from women that have missed the bag completely, in the gut, and I got up fine, a little teary eyed, but got up.

I've taken shots from men who have hit the bag and knocked me almost across the room. The strength difference is staggering...

I just asked my gf, and she says, if a perp came in, she's got no choice.. "I'd knife him to death, I have to, or else he'd kill me" very standard response I hear from most women..

But when you compare strength, I don't know if they really have other choices..

Ryder
January 28, 2003, 05:10 AM
What's up with some of those little guys anyway? Y'all little guys take advantage of us larger guy's generous nature at your own risk.

I don't have a constant sense of being taller. I consider smaller people my equal. But when someone taller comes along that sure is an unusual sensation for me. The last thing on my mind would be to start getting unfreindly. I respect that largeness and you won't even see me within arm's reach until I decide they are harmless. :D

As for females, it scares me to think how easily they can be hurt. I don't consider violence on a female to be an option short of defending against a life threatening weapon. I've had them beat on me. I guess they like to test themselves occasionally? For some reason this always causes me amusement. Now laughing at a furious woman has a slight tendency to cause them to hit harder, resulting in more laughing, it's just a viscious circle but they soon tire or realize the futility of it and stop.

I wouldn't generalize that women are more prone to resort to deadly force. IMO they are more reluctant to hurt others (or just less successful?) than a guy.

Althoughhhhh, I did have to forcefully remove a tire iron from a VERY LARGE woman once. I still regret that I couldn't snatch it away. It just wasn't doable and that grip of her's had to go. :mad: Which brings up another potential difference between guys and gals, with a guy you might not see it coming. I was later informed that a guy was sneaking up behind me with a 5 foot long 2x4. Lucky for me the tire iron issue got addressed in a timely manner. Watch your 6! The police were fine with my actions and she suffered no lasting damage that I am aware of.

ball3006
January 28, 2003, 02:28 PM
equal, when the slide is racked, than others. In "save your life situations" there is no such thing as a fair fight......chris3

Mute
January 28, 2003, 02:39 PM
To quote Clint Smith, "Some people need to be shot." Period. Survive the attack first. Everything else is a moot point if you wind up in the morgue.

Zundfolge
January 28, 2003, 03:03 PM
Ya know, as much as I like watching Jennifer Garner on 'Alias' I just shake my head whenever you see some slim model type like her beat up a guy who has a 100 lb weight advantage. Granted, these are fantasy shows, anyway, but I almost wonder if it feeds a false sense among young women that they can indeed fight most guys and win.

My wife is a belt away from her black and she is constantly saying that no matter how well trained a woman is, she's not going to stop a semi-trained and/or motivated man ... period.

She goes on to say that the advantage of martial arts for women is that if you land a quick combination it will hopefuly give you opportunity to escape ... With an extreme amount of luck you might crush a windpipe or something, but more likely you demonstrate that you aren't going to be an easy target and that may make your attacker rethink his plans.

Otherwise, the best unarmed defense for a woman is to be quick on her feet (this goes for most men too).

I'm slow (bad knee from soccer) and have no HTH training ... thus I carry a gun.

NewShooter78
January 28, 2003, 03:09 PM
there is no such thing as a fair fight

That is the way I look at it. I don't look for trouble, when I see it I avoid it if I can, if there is no way out then I'm in it for the win. And there are some ladies out there that can kick some but, don't forget that. But there is one other important part to the equation, and that is if you have it in you to attack. Some people I know that have studied MA for years, just don't seem to me to have the killer instinct. I didn't either until I started working security gigs. But when you are the one trying to break up a drunken bar fight I've learned a lot about myself and what it takes. I now hit hard, hit first, and hit with what ever is handy. But I only do that if it is unavoidable. Thankfully the police in the area don't have a problem with that either.

As for guys or girls of somewhat smaller builds, I'm the one they always want to get into it with. My partner is only about 5'6" and he's the one they need to worry about. He's tougher than me, and quicker, and I've always got him by my side when things get out of hand. And it works out pretty well.

For women, and men alike, if there is ever a situation where you fear for your life then use whatever amount of force you can to keep yourself alive. I think that since women probably seem like an easier target than a lot of men, they are put in more dangerous situations on a daily basis.

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