Police officer investigates a man with a gun (Video)


PDA






Six
July 22, 2011, 04:12 PM
http://www.wimp.com/goodcop

With all the negative police actions and behaviors we often see discussed related to carrying a gun, it's a good reminder that there are good ones out there.

If you enjoyed reading about "Police officer investigates a man with a gun (Video)" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Obsidian
July 22, 2011, 04:19 PM
The officer showed good situational awareness if nothing else, but yes Its nice to see the good hitting the internet too. And it is nice to see it handled in a polite respectful manner.

joeq
July 22, 2011, 04:25 PM
I thought the cop was great. I thought the guy carrying actually could have been a little friendlier. I don't see the big deal about giving his name when the cop asked for it. I'm sure he had some ID on him and just didn't want to provide it. It's too bad all officers aren't as courteous and respectful as this one.

Bubba613
July 22, 2011, 04:29 PM
The guy was being somewhat obnoxious but what was obviously SOP for the cop was pretty horrifying.

Tom488
July 22, 2011, 04:32 PM
What a contrast to the latest video of the officer in Ohio. As a legal CCW'er, which one would YOU rather be stopped by?

Flopsweat
July 22, 2011, 04:50 PM
For the most part I'd agree. He was courteous and ended the encounter in a very positive, up-beat manner. He certainly didn't have to do that and I commend him for it.

Handling the gun was a bad idea. Pointing it back into traffic while checking it was unsafe. Assuming he couldn't prove RAS, telling the man that he was required to provide ID or a name is a no-no, but at least he didn't press it very far. I really want to be on the officer's side here since I think he for the most part "gets it" but I'm pretty sure I saw some habits creep in there that might have been less subtly applied if he were unaware that he was being recorded.

I think the citizen handled the situation quite well too. He did cooperate more than legally required but didn't allow (or at least encourage) the officer to push things too far. There is always the possibility that an officer could have RAS and yet choose not to tell you. I would personally have been very uncomfortable with a person I don't know (peace officer or not) handling my firearm. In the end they both gave in a little and probably both left with something positive.

AethelstanAegen
July 22, 2011, 05:10 PM
I'd say the officer handled that very well. Did anyone get the name of the officer, badge number, and department? I couldn't quite it make it out given my poor hearing (give you three guesses why I have poor hearing but you'll only need one). I think it'd be great to try to send in positive feedback to his department. The handling of the firearms would make me a little nervous as well, but he was also quick to ask how the firearm functioned from the citizen instead of just hitting buttons, etc. A positive outcome for all.

Warp
July 22, 2011, 05:20 PM
Props to the officer.

The open carrier could have been less of an <removed> though. When you refuse to even identify yourself you look like you are intentionally trying to be a pain in the ass


One thing that sticks out to me is that when the officer tells the carrier to reholster his pistol and not pull it out the carrier tells the officer that he would rather the officer put it back. Not a bad idea at all.

Flynt
July 22, 2011, 05:21 PM
Flopsweat, what is "RAS"? Thanks.

M-Cameron
July 22, 2011, 05:24 PM
you know.....i watched this video.....

then i watched the Ohio police video.......

and that video made me so upset i had to come and watch this video again.

FourTeeFive
July 22, 2011, 05:24 PM
Here is the Officer's information:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-367728.html

I too was very impressed with him. While I don't agree with the questioning of people open carrying, I would be fine with providing reasonable information if an LEO asked. Especially one as polite and friendly as Officer Lyons. Seems like a nice guy that knows how to act like with professional courtesy.

Warp
July 22, 2011, 05:25 PM
RAS = Reasonable Articuable Suspicion

That is the legal hurdle an officer must meet before stopping/detaining somebody. It is not a very tall hurdle.

It is sometimes referred to as a "Terry Stop" as a result of Terry v. Ohio. Basically if an officer has a reasonable suspicion, which can be articulated, that a person has, is or is about to commit a crime they can stop the person to investigate

FourTeeFive
July 22, 2011, 05:38 PM
And he's a historian:

http://www.amazon.com/Oceanside-Police-Department-Images-America/dp/073853112X/

With this book, author Matthew J. Lyons, a corporal on the Oceanside force and former Marine who was chief of criminal investigations at Camp Pendleton, furthers his avocation of preserving the memorabilia (including a restored 1968 Dodge Polara squad car) of one of Southern California's finest police forces.

Why can't people like this pursue political careers?

JohnF Boulder Co
July 22, 2011, 05:48 PM
I'd really like to say it'd be best to just be nice and introduce yourself -citizen to police officer, you'll likely see each other around, and it's generally good to be friendly and maybe even know somebody's name.
But then again, he is a cop, and you don't want to give them anything. This isn't Smallville and everybody knows everybody else and the local cop is your neighbor and your kids go to school together.
I was impressed that the carrier was so careful, not even naming himself unless the situation became "official" and you're required to. I don't think the carrier was being a jerk. Remember that nothing you say to police can help you! Say nothing or as little as possible. Know precisely what you're required to do, don't get chatty.

Fumbling with it when he didn't even know if it was real, or loaded, or how it worked was pretty strange. If you're carrying, would it be better to be voluble about it and let him know precisely and carefully the status and how to handle it? Less words is generally better...
Not handling it yourself, in front of cops is a good thing too!

FourTeeFive
July 22, 2011, 05:48 PM
If you do want to commend his actions:

http://www.oceansidepolice.com/commendation.asp

The-Reaver
July 22, 2011, 05:50 PM
+1 for the Cop

357 Terms
July 22, 2011, 05:53 PM
Wow! I use to live in Oceanside (in the 80's) didn't realize you could carry in Cali, at least not easily. Part of me thinks that he was fortunate to be filming, cop kinda hammed it up for the camera.

1KPerDay
July 22, 2011, 05:55 PM
Cop was awesome. Jeremy could use some manners, IMO. The cop made it abundantly clear up front that he was not going to do any of the typical "authoritarian" cop stuff.

JWF III
July 22, 2011, 06:31 PM
Why can't people like this pursue political careers?

#1- They don't care to be part of the "ruling class".
#2- They're smart enough to stay out of it.

It's usually both or neither.

Wyman

dirtykid
July 22, 2011, 06:37 PM
I think the open-carrier could have acted a little less like a (stubborn mule) I cant believe they just let him walk away without positively ID the guy, I certainly with the officers positive attitude would have provided with any info he asked for (to a point) Acting like that only gives the "anti's " more fuel for their fire.
Now lets see if that cop can get elected as Attorney general or at least have a seat on the supreme court !!

ATBackPackin
July 22, 2011, 06:46 PM
Good stuff. While Jeremy wasn't required by law to give his name at that point, I don't see the harm in giving the officer your name or telling him whether it's a real gun or air-soft. Legally you don't have to hold the door for someone behind you, but you do it to be polite. A little common courtesy can go a long way.

Nice to see a cop on the Internet being supportive of peoples rights.

Shawn

M-Cameron
July 22, 2011, 07:20 PM
Good stuff. While Jeremy wasn't required by law to give his name at that point, I don't see the harm in giving the officer your name or telling him whether it's a real gun or air-soft. Legally you don't have to hold the door for someone behind you, but you do it to be polite. A little common courtesy can go a long way.

i agree...

however, its also not possible to end up in a handcuffs for holding the door too open for the guy behind you....

jackpinesavages
July 22, 2011, 07:32 PM
We have folks trolling for PD lawsuits in WI, who carry the same attitude as "Jerry". It's really getting old.

Good cop. Probably was a great Marine. Excellent job officer. Thank You for the example.

WhistlinDixie
July 22, 2011, 07:48 PM
What an awesome LEO. He was being so courteous it made me think the guy with the camera was a jerk looking for footage.

fearless leader
July 22, 2011, 08:13 PM
I have been stopped by police and had fair, courteous treatment, but in the states in which I have lived, giving cognizance to police was required if asked. I must say this appears a little foreign to me, being used to having to carry ID.

SpentCasing
July 22, 2011, 09:05 PM
my opinion on police hasnt been too high for a while. the whole Canton thing is national attention to what we've been seeing for a long time now. But I must give credit where credit is due. Great job officer, seeing this still gives hope that there may be true good guys left. I wish I could see a video like this every day.

SimplyChad
July 23, 2011, 12:28 AM
Anyone got a link for the Ohio video i havent seen it yet

dec41971
July 23, 2011, 12:40 AM
We need more cops like this! I especially like he didn't have the "us vs them" attitude. Compare and contrast that professionalism with this disgusting unbelievable incident.

Deaf guy with a wood carving knife in fatal encounter www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt1mFQG3tJg :barf:

SimplyChad
July 23, 2011, 12:50 AM
wow just wow

psyshack
July 23, 2011, 01:01 AM
I think this vid was staged. I am buy no means a cop fan. But by law any police contact when asked for ID mandates I produce my state ID and my CCW card. And thats only fare IMHO. To be disarmed in police contact is ok with me.

Something is not right about this vid.

Shienhausser
July 23, 2011, 01:12 AM
^A LOT of open carry people do this though that I've seen on video.

"Because it's my right to not tell you who I am or what i'm doing"

OK I appreciate that and it can have it's uses but every time?...

Some guys pretend that giving your drivers license to a cop means he's going to plot in his car how to take you to jail. This is just silly to me. I've made this inference over the last few days of reading comments made on this forum.

I have no problem introducing myself to the first cop that walks up to me and saying "Hey I appreciate what you do, I'm blah blah blah, I exercise my right as a good citizen. Instead of acting like some paranoid rude man who will look suspicious after refusing to even give a first name because "he can".

I do agree with letting the officer holster/re-holster the weapon though. I'm not a criminal and I'm proud of it and I won't make myself look like one by hiding information from the law. That confidence has gotten me out of many tickets.

/rant

Apocalypse-Now
July 23, 2011, 01:25 AM
so, you're not required to have ID on you when walking down the street, or to even give the cops your last name?

is that an ohio thing? :eek:

Ben86
July 23, 2011, 01:41 AM
That cop was great considering that guy was being a total tool.

I wish more cops were as respectful and level headed as that officer.

I feel that if you are going to open carry, which is often a provocative thing to do (unfortunately), you should be prepared to interact with police in a respectful and cooperative manner and hopefully they will treat you just as well and maybe even develop a better outlook on open carriers.

Dr_B
July 23, 2011, 02:00 AM
That cop was great considering that guy was being a total tool.


I was thinking the same thing. I've seen this video somewhere before. It sounds like the guy being questioned was a little nervous. But really, if you're minding your own business and not doing anything criminal, why not just give the cop your name and let him/her check you out? You're not doing anything wrong, so what's the worry?

Got_Lead?
July 23, 2011, 02:12 AM
That LEO really needs some anger management counseling. Wow, I'm a long way from Ohio, and it scares me that someone like that is out on the loose and armed. I'm less afraid of the criminal element.

AethelstanAegen
July 23, 2011, 02:58 AM
That LEO really needs some anger management counseling. Wow, I'm a long way from Ohio, and it scares me that someone like that is out on the loose and armed. I'm less afraid of the criminal element.

I think you meant to post this in the other thread, Got_Lead. This thread isn't about the Canton cop, rather about a very professional cop in Oceanside.

I feel that if you are going to open carry, which is often a provocative thing to do (unfortunately), you should be prepared to interact with police in a respectful and cooperative manner and hopefully they will try you as well and maybe even develop a better outlook on open carriers.

I have to agree with you, Ben86. I understand the theoretical reason behind the open-carry activist's not wanting to give information if not legally required to, but frankly it just makes him seem like a jerk when meeting such a cooperative cop. I think in general, we should always be sure to take the high road so to speak in interactions with the police and show them that the vast majority of armed citizens are very reasonable, law abiding, and not planning anything nefarious. A simple "my name is x and I'm just exercising my right to bear arms" would have been sufficient. It's pretty obvious in the video that the citizen was looking for trouble and in this case the cop took the high road (kudos to him).

ATBackPakin said it well:
Legally you don't have to hold the door for someone behind you, but you do it to be polite. A little common courtesy can go a long way.

CapnMac
July 23, 2011, 03:08 AM
Why can't people like this pursue political careers?

Probably the "historian" part.
History is about the real, the provable, the factual.
Politics is about the fake, the imaginary, the promises of fairy dust.

It is not the stuff of a man of iron to speak the double-tongues as if true.

Flopsweat
July 23, 2011, 09:32 AM
I'd like to offer a little perspective that may help some folks better understand what was going on in this video. There are two issues I'd like to cover: concealed carry in California and the experiences of open carriers in general.

Concealed carry is essentially banned in major parts of California. California is a "may issue" state meaning you are at the mercy of the local sheriff. If he or she is anti-gun, almost nobody gets approved. This is common practice. The only other way you can carry legally is open carry. The gun must be unloaded. You may carry a loaded magazine but it mustn't be touching the gun. Some police departments will stop people to verify that their firearm is unloaded. There is a bit of controversy over this. It sounds a lot like unlawful detention to me. Some say it is for public safety, but it takes a couple of seconds to insert a magazine or speed loader, so it hardly seems a practical use of police resources. Plus how many criminals open carry? It gets pretty easy to think that the law is intended or used to discourage open carry.

Open carry is of course gaining in popularity in other states as well. I live in one of these states. At first our police were not well trained in state law regarding open carry and conducted some illegal arrests, violated civil rights and even proned people out at gunpoint without cause. In several cases recordings of the incidents revealed extreme bias and inappropriately aggressive behavior on the part of some of the officers. Many flatly stated that open carry was illegal and/or would not be tolerated. This has happened in other states as well. One California cop even bragged on his Facebook page "Sounds like you had someone practicing their 2nd amendment rights last night! Should've pulled the AR out and prone them all out! And if one of them makes a furtive movement ... 2 weeks off!!!". He also laughed about the difficulty of getting a carry permit: "Haha that's when you attend one of their meetings and laugh at them cuz they can only dream to have a ccw". A rare few open carriers have been belligerent and antagonistic (very bad idea for many reasons) and there is no excuse for that. But if you believe that anyone is trolling for a bad arrest, visit one of the open carry forums and read a few threads about people who have experienced it. No one in their right mind would want to go through that. Some of them have lost and very few have won large settlements. After several lawsuits most jurisdictions in my state have made it clear to all of their officers that open carrying is legal and is not in and of itself cause for detaining anyone. There are still occasional incidents but things have improved considerably. Sadly, this is not yet the case in California.

So what I saw happening was that the citizen was NOT being a jackass and was most certainly not looking to get falsely arrested. He was practicing his Second Amendment rights in the only manner legally afforded to him and just wanted to be left alone. The officer at one point told him that he was required to give his name. If I recall correctly that is false. Note that he eventually backed off after the citizen politely declined a few times. The lawyers here can discuss the finer points but the officer, while he had a very pleasant manner and seemed supportive of our rights, had no good reason to stop the guy in the first place. It can be a fine line between standing up for your rights and tempting fate, and I think the citizen handled himself admirably. I'm hoping that the officer didn't want to stop the guy at all and was just "following orders" (I'm not even going there). Maybe they were just two decent people politely disagreeing with each other.

Please don't think I'm anti-cop. I am pro-freedom. One of my best friends is a cop and I would literally trust him with my life. It's just common sense not to volunteer anything and never to consent to search. Most peace officers are great guys but you never know which one you'll get. Some in the past have behaved so badly that they are now all required to tell everyone that they arrest not to trust them (Miranda). They are not the enemy. But if they are questioning you, it's foolish to assume they are your friend.

OK, I'm tired of typing and you're probably tired of reading this. I hope I've made my point in a reasonable and decent manner.

Flops

Ohio Gun Guy
July 23, 2011, 09:38 AM
While the officer here did a good job, no doubt. half of our reaction, I think, is because he didnt completely mis-treat him, which is what we are kind of expecting to see.....isnt it?

danprkr
July 23, 2011, 09:46 AM
The open carrier could have been less of an <removed> though. When you refuse to even identify yourself you look like you are intentionally trying to be a pain in the ass

++1

MJ_ATL
July 23, 2011, 10:10 AM
If only the officer from the earlier post in Ohio had acted this way. Although, Jerry was a bit of an jerk looking for something to use. He's lucky he got a veteran officer that didn't have any power issues. Otherwise he might have been tazed, sprayed, and cuffed with that attitude.

Although, every encounter I've had except one with a cop while carrying has started with me handing them both my ID and my permit, it solves a lot of problems before they start. I usually get thanked for letting them know up front and several times we end up talking guns.

HOOfan_1
July 23, 2011, 10:28 AM
I don't see anything wrong with him not giving out his name. He was not doing a thing wrong. Maybe he didn't want his name to appear in a report...maybe some of those reports work their way into the local news. Maybe instead of just saying "I'm not going to give you that" he should say "I'd rather not because I don't know what is going to happen with that information that may come back and bite me later".

Does it look like he may have been trying to make a point? Sure, but hey that's also his right.

Most people who actually plan to use a gun to do harm aren't going to be flashing it around out in the open, unless they are completely stupid.

Was that a Hi-Point?

M-Cameron
July 23, 2011, 10:38 AM
yes jerry was acting kind of like a jerk.....and he probably could have had a little nicer tone....

but i dont have a problem with anything he did....

not saying this is the case....but it wouldnt surprise me at all if and officer would pretend to be a nice, friendly, gun loving guy......just to try and get a guy to relax and start talking, and see if theres anything he says or does that he can arrest him for.

i always hear LEO say that people often dont know when to stop talking, and its often what they say that lands them in handcuffs......

when dealing with LEO, its usually always best to say what is required, and say no more......no matter how friendly they seem.

FourTeeFive
July 23, 2011, 10:39 AM
Was that a Hi-Point?

He said it was a Smith & Wesson. Probably a Sigma.

FourTeeFive
July 23, 2011, 10:44 AM
when dealing with LEO, its usually always best to say what is required, and say no more......no matter how friendly they seem.

Always good advice.

In the words of Sergeant Joe Friday:

http://soundlasercenters.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Joe-Friday-300x288.jpg

TCB in TN
July 23, 2011, 10:47 AM
The officer is either a genuinely good one, or at least smart enough to act the part. Overall it was a very professional interaction from the LEOs standpoint.

As for the carrier, he was not rude, he did not act angrily, he acted in a smart manner, cooperated to the extent required. This idea that we need to "befriend" the officer is absurd, as has been pointed out countless times, the police are not our friends, they are legally allowed to lie, mislead, coerce, etc to get info that they want. The guy was minding his own business and stopped for exercising a Constitutional right, don't bash him for not being happy about the fact.

HOOfan_1
July 23, 2011, 10:48 AM
He said it was a Smith & Wesson. Probably a Sigma.

I figured he just meant .40 Smith and Wesson talking about the chambering.

Looks like a Hi-Point with the slide fully enclosing the chamer.

recondoc
July 23, 2011, 12:03 PM
Having seen and ranted about the Ohio stop for the last few days, I finally took time to look at this thread. What a night and day difference. Officer Lyonns is exactly what America needs more of in Law Enforcement. I wonder if he has considered a Chief's job. I think there may be an opening in Canton OH pretty soon. :)
Outstanding Officer Lyonns.
Semper Fi!
Doc

Hugo
July 23, 2011, 12:21 PM
Well done officer Lyonns! Hope he becomes Chief or a politician. Perhaps R. Lee Ermey should give him some sort of "Good job Marine!" award? Or a free Glock?

SwampWolf
July 23, 2011, 12:25 PM
For those who are understandably upset by the Canton, Ohio police officer's behavior and who haven't heard the latest development in the case, it's my understanding that he has been relieved from duty (suspended) pending "further investigation". If I were Canton city officials, I'd be bracing for a law-suit having plenty of merit, charging their police department with violating a citizen's civil rights.

TexasBill
July 23, 2011, 12:36 PM
I was a bit surprised that Jeremy didn't have to show ID but I guess the requirement varies from state to state.

I don't know about San Diego County, but some county DAs have instructed LEOs in their jurisdiction to crank up the hostility, even approaching an open carrier with drawn sidearms. This officer was a breath of fresh air.

Cops are trained to notice things out of the ordinary and in most parts of the country, a guy walking down the street with a holstered handgun is out of the ordinary. Is that enough to justify a Terry stop? Probably depends on the jurisdiction, but I can't see that it's worth a ride downtown until the officer can determine who I am so I would probably be willing to show my identification.

martialartsblackbelt
July 23, 2011, 02:33 PM
very well done officer! what a great guy and LEO! lets spread this video around to other forums and our social networking sites.

SaxonPig
July 23, 2011, 06:20 PM
Doesn't make any difference how polite the cop was if he was acting illegally. Also makes no difference if the citizen was being obnoxious. The law doesn't require one to be polite to police. Yes, it's a good idea, but it's not required. I personally have no problem with producing ID when there is valid reason for police to ask for it. But if the law doesn't require it then one is not obligated to do it.

Did the cop have legal cause to stop the armed man? Were his actions (detaining, searching, seizing the weapon, demanding ID, etc.) within his legal jurisdiction?

If carrying openly is legal then a citizen complaint about an armed man is meaningless. It does NOT constitute probable cause because since it is legal to carry a gun then carrying one does not give the cop reason to suspect a crime has been committed.

A polite cop can still be part of a police state.

Ben86
July 23, 2011, 06:27 PM
For those who are understandably upset by the Canton, Ohio police officer's behavior and who haven't heard the latest development in the case, it's my understanding that he has been relieved from duty (suspended) pending "further investigation". If I were Canton city officials, I'd be bracing for a law-suit having plenty of merit, charging their police department with violating a citizen's civil rights.

That's good to hear. I hate to attack a man's livelihood, but we really don't need police officers prone to such acts of thuggery. He ought to be fired ASAP. Law abiding citizens should never be treated like that.

au01st
July 23, 2011, 09:42 PM
For those of you who wonder about him producing ID, if he was walking down the street and stopped and asked for ID, would you still think he should produce it?

Papers, please?

Doing something not illegal should not be reason for one to produce ID. If you live in a state where it is, I'm terribly sorry...

BobTheTomato
July 24, 2011, 09:56 AM
We have folks trolling for PD lawsuits in WI, who carry the same attitude as "Jerry". It's really getting old.

Maybe if the cops knew the law, people would not get illegally stopped and have the ability to sue the state for the ignorance of their employees. Normal people are told that ignorance of the law is no excuse. The same is the case here. It is the cops JOB to know the law. If he is unable to do that he should find a new job. The same problem exists here in PA where some cops harass people who open carry and are not breaking the law. Many people who OC need to be rude and bust out recording devices because they are hassled by cops for doing nothing but exercising their rights.

If you enjoyed reading about "Police officer investigates a man with a gun (Video)" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!