Inherited Handgun


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Ramrod17
July 24, 2011, 12:33 AM
Hello, my folks have inherited two hand guns as a result of older family members passing away over the pass couple of years. Both of the handguns are very nice revolvers (pictures below). Based of how old these relatives were when they passed away and some of the family history we have been able to put together, these guns were most likely purchased over 45-50 years ago. When they passed away my folks had no idea that these relatives owned these handguns and found them when sorting through the relatives things.

My question is, do these handguns need to be register with the state of California as part of their registration laws under my fathers name? Neither gun has ever been registered and one of them is so old it might not even have serial numbers from what they have told me (maybe 70years+).

Whether my parents register them or not is up to them just wondering what the legal thing is in this case due to their be no real record of these handguns in the California system.

Thanks!

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Lawdawg45
July 24, 2011, 06:55 AM
Beautiful guns Ramrod! Is the single action break top a S&W? Possibly a #3 American.

LD45

GCBurner
July 24, 2011, 09:43 AM
Nice old Colt and break-top, there. I don't think revolvers meet the classification of "assault weapons" that require registration in California. Yet.

Quiet
July 24, 2011, 09:43 AM
Hello, my folks have inherited two hand guns as a result of older family members passing away over the pass couple of years. Both of the handguns are very nice revolvers (pictures below). Based of how old these relatives were when they passed away and some of the family history we have been able to put together, these guns were most likely purchased over 45-50 years ago. When they passed away my folks had no idea that these relatives owned these handguns and found them when sorting through the relatives things.

My question is, do these handguns need to be register with the state of California as part of their registration laws under my fathers name? Neither gun has ever been registered and one of them is so old it might not even have serial numbers from what they have told me (maybe 70years+).

Whether my parents register them or not is up to them just wondering what the legal thing is in this case due to their be no real record of these handguns in the California system.

Thanks!

Starting in 1993, CA laws [PC 12078(c)(2)] mandate that intra-familial gifts/inheritences of handguns between immediate family members (grandparent-parent-child-grandchild) needed to be reported to CA DOJ BOF.

As long as the deceased relatives were "immediate family", your father can comply with the law, by sending in a Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction Report (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf) with $19.
On the form... Acquired From = name of family member and relationship. How Possession Was Obtained = inheritance.

If the deceased relatives were not "immediate family", as defined by CA laws [PC 12078(c)(3)], then the handguns need to be transfered to your father through a CA FFL dealer. The exectuor of the deceased's estate can do the transfer to your father.
If your father is the executor of the estate, then he can transfer the handguns to himself using the Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction Report (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf). [PC 12078(i)(2)]
On the form... Acquired From = name of family member. How Possession Was Obtained = executor of estate.

In either case, your father will need a HSC or an exemption to the HSC. [PC 12078(c)(2)(B) or 12078(i)(3)]

There is no penalty for sending in the form after the 30 day time period.
Within 2-40 weeks, CA DOJ BOF will mail back acknowledgement of the report.

Even though CA has had "handgun registration" system since 1924, it was not mandatory for handguns to be registered. Handguns were registered via DROS from a dealer. But, handguns transfered face-to-face without the use of a dealer, did not have to be registered.

Prior to 1991, it was 100% legal to transfer firearms between non-prohibited CA residents via face-to-face cash & carry type transactions. After 1991, firearm transfers have to be facilitated by a CA FFL dealer [PC 12072(d)].

Prior to 1993, it was 100% legal to transfer firearms between family members without reporting it to CA DOJ.



Penal Code 12078
(c)(1) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun by gift, bequest, intestate succession, or other means by one individual to another if both individuals are members of the same immediate family.
(2) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent transfer of a handgun by gift, bequest, intestate succession, or other means by one individual to another if both individuals are members of the same immediate family and all of the following conditions are met:
(A) The person to whom the firearm is transferred shall, within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, forward by prepaid mail or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete pursuant to this paragraph shall be provided to them by the Department of Justice.
(B) The person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a basic firearms safety certificate. If taking possession on or after January 1, 2003, the person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a handgun safety certificate.
(C) The person receiving the firearm is 18 years of age or older.
(3) As used in this subdivision, "immediate family member" means any one of the following relationships:
(A) Parent and child.
(B) Grandparent and grandchild.

(i)(1) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to a person who takes title or possession of a firearm that is not a handgun by operation of law if the person is not prohibited by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code from possessing firearms.
(2) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to a person who takes title or possession of a handgun by operation of law if the person is not prohibited by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code from possessing firearms and all of the following conditions are met:
(A) If the person taking title or possession is neither a levying officer as defined in Section 481.140, 511.060, or 680.210 of the Code of Civil Procedure nor a person who is receiving that firearm pursuant to subparagraph (G), (I), or (J) of paragraph (2) of subdivision (u), the person shall, within 30 days of taking possession, forward by prepaid mail or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report of information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title or possession was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The reports that individuals complete pursuant to this paragraph shall be provided to them by the department.
(B) If the person taking title or possession is receiving the firearm pursuant to subparagraph (G) of paragraph (2) of subdivision (u), the person shall do both of the following:
(i) Within 30 days of taking possession, forward by prepaid mail or deliver in person to the department, a report of information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title or possession was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The reports that individuals complete pursuant to this paragraph shall be provided to them by the department.
(ii) Prior to taking title or possession of the firearm, the person shall obtain a handgun safety certificate.
(C) Where the person receiving title or possession of the handgun is a person described in subparagraph (I) of paragraph (2) of subdivision (u), on the date that the person is delivered the firearm, the name and other information concerning the person taking possession of the firearm, how title or possession of the firearm was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm by make, model, serial number, and other identifying characteristics, shall be entered into the Automated Firearms System (AFS) via the California Law Enforcement Telecommunications System (CLETS) by the law enforcement or state agency that transferred or delivered the firearm. Those agencies without access to AFS shall arrange with the sheriff of the county in which the agency is located to input this information via this system.
(D) Where the person receiving title or possession of the handgun is a person described in subparagraph (J) of paragraph (2) of subdivision (u), on the date that the person is delivered the firearm, the name and other information concerning the person taking possession of the firearm, how title or possession of the firearm was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm by make, model, serial number, and other identifying characteristics, shall be entered into the AFS via the CLETS by the law enforcement or state agency that transferred or delivered the firearm. Those agencies without access to AFS shall arrange with the sheriff of the county in which the agency is located to input this information via this system. In addition, that law enforcement agency shall not deliver that handgun to the person referred to in this subparagraph unless, prior to the delivery of the same, the person presents proof to the agency that he or she is the holder of a handgun safety certificate.
(3) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to a person who takes possession of a firearm by operation of law in a representative capacity who subsequently transfers ownership of the firearm to himself or herself in his or her individual capacity. In the case of a handgun, the individual shall obtain a handgun safety certificate prior to transferring ownership to himself or herself, or taking possession of a handgun in an individual capacity.

danez71
July 24, 2011, 09:46 AM
Edit: Quiet posted better info quicker.

loadedround
July 24, 2011, 09:48 AM
In my non legal mind, if neither revolver is to be carried, I would not go through the hassle of trying to register them. Additionally the S&W break- open revolver is classified as a C&R firearm because of it's age and can be purchased with a C&R license w/o going through an FFL dealer. I don't know what Ca. law is on a collectable firearm.

forindooruseonly
July 24, 2011, 09:52 AM
Not familiar with California laws, so I can't help you on that. The older revolver looks like a Smith and Wesson Double Action and should have a serial number on the butt of the grip. I can't tell from the pic, but it should have the S&W logo behind the large screw on the frame and Smith and Wessson and patent dates written along the top of the barrel behind the front sight. If it doesn't it may be a Spanish clone, in which there very well might not be a serial number.

Quiet
July 24, 2011, 09:57 AM
If the guns were out of the state of CA they will at least need to fill out a form with-in 60 days of entry into CA and pay $16? ea.

Other issues may apply (Will issues?) that negate or complicate things.

If the handguns belonged to a non-CA resident and are being imported into CA, they are exempt from the Federal laws requirement to be transfered through a FFL dealer due to being transfered via inheritance/bequest. [18 USC 922 (a)(5)(A)]

Therefore, the handguns can be registered via my first post.

In my non legal mind, if neither revolver is to be carried, I would not go through the hassle of trying to register them. Additionally the S&W break- open revolver is classified as a C&R firearm because of it's age and can be purchased with a C&R license w/o going through an FFL dealer. I don't know what Ca. law is on a collectable firearm.
Under CA laws, only C&R long guns that are 50 or more years old are exempt from the CA FFL dealer transfer requirement. [PC 12078(t)(2)]

If the C&R handguns were being transfered under different circumstances they would need to be transfered through a CA FFL dealer.

Under CA laws...
C&R handguns shipped into CA need to be transfered through a CA FFL dealer, they can not be shipped directly to a CA resident licensed as a C&R 03-FFL.
A CA resident licensed as a C&R 03-FFL can go to another state and acquire C&R handguns, but will need to register those handguns within 5 days of bringing them back into CA. [PC 12072(f)(3)]

buck460XVR
July 24, 2011, 10:03 AM
Good info Quiet...........

SaxonPig
July 24, 2011, 10:19 AM
CA has become the worst state in the nation for gun owners. Among the many, many oppressive and clearly un-Constitutional laws is one requiring that all handguns be registered with the state DoJ and a fee paid for each one.

I left CA in 1992 partly due to the ultra liberalism and Draconian gun laws but I will come back if someone will let me know when the revolution has started.

PS: The Colt looks like a detective Special (or alloy version) made after 1972. The other revolver may date before 1898 and is therefore an antique and may be exempt from the registration law. Check with the CA DoJ.

Jim Watson
July 24, 2011, 10:33 AM
I think all the legalisms have been covered.

FYI the guns are a Colt Detective Special (maybe Cobra or Agent, I can't read the barrel legend) of the third issue as made 1973-1986. Caliber is almost certainly .38 Special.

And a Smith & Wesson .38 Double Action Third (1884-1895) or Fourth (1885-1909) Model. Caliber is .38 S&W which is NOT the same as the .38 Special for the Colt. Nice looking ivory or maybe bone grips instead of the usual hard rubber or dressy pearl.

Ramrod17
July 24, 2011, 11:42 AM
Thanks guys this is great info, especially Quiet! These were inherited from immediate family members and both were in CA. I will pass the legal info onto my folks. Also thanks for the identification of the guns. As always you all have been thorough and gracious :)

Remo223
July 24, 2011, 11:51 AM
that colt (the one on the left) is definitely UNDER 45 years old and. It was not purchased 45-50 years ago. It is about a 1975 vintage gun so about 35 years old.

GCBurner
July 24, 2011, 01:01 PM
Thanks for the update on the new California gun laws, I was unaware that they had been changed to include ALL firearms. I can think of no legitimate purpose for the State to be compiling a database of all gun owners and firearms, and criminalizing non-compliance. I am so thankful I don't live there.

Quiet
July 24, 2011, 01:45 PM
CA has become the worst state in the nation for gun owners.
IMO...
Hawaii is worst than California.

David E
July 24, 2011, 02:33 PM
Some people might effectively bypass all that "legal" crap and say they were given to them in 1989......

RedAlert
July 24, 2011, 09:05 PM
Wow, I had to double check that Quiet's post was California Law. At first I thought it was a translation from some anti-gun COUNTRY like Canada.

Lawdawg45
July 25, 2011, 05:39 AM
"Additionally the S&W break- open revolver is classified as a C&R firearm because of it's age and can be purchased with a C&R license w/o going through an FFL dealer."

I just had to laugh when I heard Boxer, Feinstein and Pelosi make the comment that "period correct and historical firearms weren't a threat to society". Thank God these idiots have never visited a SASS match or watched Jerry Mucilek with an antique wheel gun!:D

LD45

NavyLCDR
July 25, 2011, 11:56 AM
CA has become the worst state in the nation for gun owners.

Not even close.

ArmedOkie
July 25, 2011, 12:54 PM
that break top reminds me of the NAA ranger break-top i missed out on. that thing must be worth a penny or two. very very nice

MachIVshooter
July 26, 2011, 01:30 AM
Hawaii is worst than California.

Doesn't count.

Floating out in the middle of the Pacific ocean, not threatening to infect the continental U.S. like CA. :neener:

I'm just glad we have Utah, Nevada and Arizona as a buffer.

LKB3rd
July 26, 2011, 10:23 AM
CA has become the worst state in the nation for gun owners. Among the many, many oppressive and clearly un-Constitutional laws is one requiring that all handguns be registered with the state DoJ and a fee paid for each one.

I was amazed reading that portion, then the kicker.... 19$!! That is very bad imo.

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