saw a rare sight at a gunshow yesterday...


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Dorkfish88
July 24, 2011, 08:49 PM
found a Japanese Arisaka type 99 with the mum still on the reciever, i woulda bought it if i had had the money...

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Philippe
July 24, 2011, 09:00 PM
Interesting.... They just had one on Sons of Guns the other night except it was a type 38 and still had the mum on it.

speedway
July 24, 2011, 09:02 PM
I bought a type 38 with Mum at a gunshop for $50.

The guy has no luck selling milsurps.

btg3
July 24, 2011, 09:02 PM
Where was the show that you went to?

Dorkfish88
July 24, 2011, 09:06 PM
C&E show in charlotte N.C.

Walkalong
July 24, 2011, 09:23 PM
What's a mum?

Murphy4570
July 24, 2011, 09:32 PM
Walkalong, the "mum" others are referencing is the seal of the Emperor of Japan, Emperor Hirohito.

This seal was ground off of Jap weapons after they surrendered to us in 1945. General of the Army D. MacArthur, in charge of the occupation, enforced this Imperial Japanese order to American troops as well, so the Japs could "save face" as much as possible. Honor was paramount in the Imperial Japanese Army/Navy. Death before dishonor was more than a catchphrase to them.

As such, finding an authentic Jap firearm with the mum intact is a rare find, and commands higher prices amongst collectors.

nosmr2
July 24, 2011, 09:34 PM
I thought you were gonna say, "a deal." That would have been uber rare.

HoosierQ
July 24, 2011, 09:34 PM
The Imperial Chrysanthamum that was imprinted on all Japanese weapons signifying their service to the Emperor. Before and during surrender Japanese troops removed them so as not to disgrace the Emperor. Post surrender, all weapons in US hands had the mums ground off for the same reason. Most of the GI bring backs had the mums removed if they came back after the war. A 99 or a 38 with an intact mum is kind of rare but not extremely so...I have seem a number of them. But they are desireable. Basically, a 99 with an intact mum was probably captured in battle with its Japanese owner likely KIA and was brought home before the end of the war by the GI that picked it up on the battlefield. Of course there are many other possible scenarios for an intact mum.

wally
July 25, 2011, 03:26 PM
Of course there are many other possible scenarios for an intact mum.

Yes, like with any of the other less common / more desirable variations in WWII arms you need to be on the lookout for fraud/counterfeits -- especially if the price premium is significant.

Keb
July 25, 2011, 06:33 PM
McArthur also dumped shiploads of Samurai swords into the ocean.

gun addict
July 25, 2011, 06:40 PM
not rare at all to be honest, the mum is a factor in collectibility of Arisakas but more importantly arsenal and series or rare models are what makes Arisakas valuable

jimmyraythomason
July 25, 2011, 07:09 PM
As such, finding an authentic Jap firearm with the mum intact is a rare findI've seen many with undefaced mums. They were not counterfeit but cheap mil-surps in the 1970s.

JackTheRipper
July 25, 2011, 07:13 PM
about how much are they worth?

raddiver
July 25, 2011, 08:03 PM
I want to say 5-600 with mum attached and in decent condition.

jdex
July 25, 2011, 08:32 PM
Speed, does that gunshop have a website?

gun addict
July 25, 2011, 10:55 PM
negative, i've seen many complete Arisakas with mum intact for the $200 range, again the mum itself is NOT a big indicator of its value. Again we'd need the arsenal and serial range and model to determin the price. There are so many variations of Arisakas or just military surplus firearms in general you cannot put a price on an unseen gun easily

blanket
July 31, 2011, 08:08 AM
How much is a 99 with the mum and capture papers worth? Thanks Russ

USAF_Vet
July 31, 2011, 02:57 PM
My Type 38 has a partially visible mum. A completely intact mum increases the value, about double or triple of what a ground mum rifle is worth. But considering that a regular type 38 or type 99 in halfway decent condition is only worth between $150 and $250, an intact mum rifle is really only worth $500- $600 at best. Arisakas just aren't as collectible as other milsurps for some reason. I think a lack of cheap mil surp ammo is a large part of it.

Most Arisakas won't include 'authentic' capture papers. Most rifle bring backs were not done during the war, but from the Army of Occupation following the war. Capture papers would be more likely found with pistols and swords, if even then. Back in WWII, war spoils were often overlooked by the brass, especially in the Pacific. Paperwork for bring backs didn't really get started until after Korea.

Pistols and (to some extent) swords were easier to get home, rifles not so much. Pretty difficult to stuff a rifle in a footlocker or sea bag. They just weren't worth the effort.

The war spoils in highest demand were the German Luger and the Japanese 'Samurai' Sword.

animator
July 31, 2011, 10:41 PM
Saw a pair of 99s with the mum undamaged at the last show I was at. Asking price was 350 for each. I declined, but didn't consider it too far out of line. The rifles were a bit rough...

rocky branch
July 31, 2011, 11:24 PM
"Capture papers" which are merely authorizations for souveniers to be mailed or carried home have little or nothing to do with how the piece was acquired.

They were used quite hapahazardly or not at all in many circumstances.

Recently, they have been "rediscovered" and are commonly faked and temendously overvalued.

I began collecting in the early 60s when most pieces were still in vets hands.

My family and most locals were vets.

I got Lugers, Nambus, Arisakas, you name it.
I got to look at lots of pieces not for sale.

I doubt that 5 of a hundred weapons I ever saw had any paperwork.

VN was different-paperwork was so oppresive that a lot of guys never bothered with souveniers.

"Ground" Arisakas far outnumber unground or undefaced examples.
Partially ground equals partially pregnant.

Frogman
August 1, 2011, 04:19 PM
I passed on a ground Mum 99 7.7 jap for $100.00 at a yard sale last year - I haven't seen ammo for them under $25.00 a 20rd box in ages. I'll bet it's in the $30+ range now.

USAF_Vet
August 1, 2011, 05:16 PM
7.7 and 6.5 Jap ammo is dwindling. It's not as bad as they portrayed on Sons of Guns, it's available, but not cheap. $25 a box is about right, on the low end.

blowfeld
August 1, 2011, 06:46 PM
I have seen these with the mum in tact. I never bought one because they were junk guns. More of a club than a good rifle. German K98s is a whole nother barrel of fish.

HankB
August 1, 2011, 06:52 PM
EARLY Arisakas are quite nicely made - the Japs had a very good differential heat treating process that made them among the very strongest of actions. (P.O. Ackley, in his book, reported that had great difficulty blowing one up with deliberate overloads when he was trying to see what the ultimate strength limits were on various military actions.)

Hardly "junk" guns.

On the other hand LATE war Arisakas were SO poorly made - not even heat treated! - that they're dangerous to shoot; these DO fit the description of "junk guns."

blanket
August 1, 2011, 08:00 PM
Well as to the capture papers and rifle I have, they were brought back by my father so there is no doubt as to the origin. They are permission to mail the rifle Russ

rocky branch
August 2, 2011, 12:39 AM
I have a HSc my father, 506 PIR brought home.
It actually had the paperwork-one of the 5 out of a hundred I mentioned.

The Officer detailed to sign the papers that day got lazy and wrote the magazine number instead of the pistol's actual number.
It was lost when gram sold the farm.

I have early Jap pieces, well made and finished and very late ones that I would not fire.
The safety knob held by a glob of weld would make a funny dent in one's gourd if it let go.
Late Mausers were just as bad.

Vaarok
August 2, 2011, 12:43 AM
Wow is this a painful discussion of gunshow myth.

Mummed rifles are very common, and the condition of the rifle and the number of assembly-matching parts are of far greater import than a stamping. A rarer manufacturer or better condition example also commands a premium.

At best a chrysanthemum would command maybe a $50 increase in value over a comparable scrubbed example.

Further, a twenty of 7.7 Japanese Arisaka cartridges runs about $22, and the 6.5 about the same. If you're overpaying for Lapua or something, at Gander Mountain, yes, I suppose you might get roped into $30-40 a box, but that's just for lack of comparison shopping.

And the idiot on Sons Of Guns should assuredly not be taken as gospel. Hell, they couldn't figure out the safety.

USAF_Vet
August 2, 2011, 11:14 AM
And the idiot on Sons Of Guns should assuredly not be taken as gospel. Hell, they couldn't figure out the safety.

I had forgotten about that, they said there was no safety on the Arisaka. there is, it's on the back of the bolt, similar to a Mosin Nagant, but actually easier to use.

BigDaddyNEB
August 2, 2011, 03:57 PM
When I saw the tag " Rare sight", I thought maybe it was for a dealer who would actually come down on his/her price.

VT Deer Hunter
August 2, 2011, 04:17 PM
Very cool find.

Gunnerboy
August 3, 2011, 12:26 AM
To find one with the mum intact all day long try some gun shows on the west coast, i live in washington and it seems like 1 out of 10 has the mum intact

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