Practical 22 games


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pikid89
July 25, 2011, 04:46 AM
Mods, I realize this isn't the competition area, but since it discusses the idea of getting new people into the games, i put it in general discussions


with the popularity and awesome level of fun in games like IDPA, IPSC, USPSA etc...

AND

the constant (correct) advice of how everyone should have a 22 of some sort for its huge fun/cost ratio


i start to wonder, why havnt these 2 thing been combined
I realize there is the USPSA Steel Challenge, but thats not the same

I think that shooting an IPSC competition with a Ruger MKII/ Buckmark/ S&W M-63 and a red dot would be a riot, and pretty cheap to boot
A lot of people have a gun like that and it would be much easier for people with just a 22, or poor college students (like me :D) to shoot more competitions


I decided to do a little googling and i came across another shooting forum (forum name withheld) where they were discussing just this conundrum. I figured there would be resounding support for the fun, the cost savings, and the ease of introducing newbies into action shooting.
but that wasn't the case:confused:

the general consensus was totally negative, some almost even snobbish towards rimfire

This should NEVER be made an official division of USPSA. SteveJ is right, a .22 is not a suitable caliber for 'Practical" pistol shooting

Just so it's in writing....USPSA can simply cancel my membership the moment that a 22LR division is legalized in USPSA.

It's time for people to get a clue. USPSA just went and bought the Steel Challenge, which is a sport that essentiallly does NOT recognize power and is eminently suited for new/inexperienced shooters. Shoot your 22 there. At the USPSA match, everybody needs to pull up his/her big people pants and shoot ammo that makes PF.

Why such hostility??

I agree that rimfire isn't what IDPA (defensive pistol) is about and that makes sense, but why can't we have something along the lines of that or IPSC or USPSA...I could even see that taking off into its own sport as ammo and components and guns get more and more expensive

What say you fellow HighRoaders: You guys that shoot one of the games, would you be accepting of a rimfire division in your game, or even a dedicated rimfire organization?
Or you guys that don't shoot, why not, are ammo and the special guns to cost prohibitive; would you play if you could run your favorite 22?

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mnrivrat
July 25, 2011, 06:22 AM
I'm under the impression that the Ruger Rimfire Competitions have been gaining ground quickly.

A step in the right direction as there should always be room for added shooting events, and the rimfire catigory is a natural choice for growing the sport .

Geckgo
July 25, 2011, 06:39 AM
soda cans and golf balls work good for me. Appleseed is very welcoming to rimfire, but I hardly consider it a sport or competition. It's a cool idea though. I say, if you've got some friends and whatnot, then start one.

M-Cameron
July 25, 2011, 11:12 AM
i find it odd there are not more rimfire competitions around......especially since .22lr is the most common and affordable caliber.

one thing i would love to see would be a .22lr long range "sniper" competition....

essentially, shooting man sized silhouettes at 100-400 yard ranges, from a variety of positions....you are scored on time and accuracy.

and so you dont have one guy with a $4000 match gun having an advantage over the guy with the $300 gun.....you have price ranges....

essentially you have a $xxx match......where if you win the match, and someone offers to buy your gun for $xxx, you have to( or are at least strongly encouraged to) sell it to them.

and then the prize for 1st place would be something like 1/2 the price level of the match.......so if you win in the $300 class.....you get $150.

this will keep someone entering in a $300 match with a top end anschutz...


i dunno...just an idea.

CoRoMo
July 25, 2011, 11:25 AM
I love steel challenge with a MkIII. $20 in ammo can cover two matches.

pikid89
July 25, 2011, 11:48 AM
steel challenge is a blast no doubt...but i want more rimfire run and gun, reload on the clock, shoot from cover etc...

chhodge69
July 25, 2011, 02:29 PM
sounds fun to me - I practice for IDPA with a .22 anyhow. Fundamentals are, well, fundamental.

Justin
July 25, 2011, 03:23 PM
Why such hostility??

Probably because the heart of USPSA shooting is built around the concept of defensive gun use.

Momentarily setting aside the notion that certain guns used in USPSA may be sub-optimal for real-world defensive use, I think we can all agree that a move to include .22s would be yet another move away from the aspect of practicality in the sport.

That said, with the rising cost of ammunition and the subsequent market offerings of rimfire guns in "practical-ish" configurations, I think it would be great fun and good practice to create rimfire-based matches that include movement and reloading on the clock.

Such matches wouldn't even need to be officially sanctioned by any national governing body. A couple of years ago, we experimented with running a rimfire side match at our monthly tactical rifle match. It was a pretty good success, with everyone who participated reporting that they had a good time, and the low cost of ammunition meant that we all got to shoot a whole lot more. (In the end, we scrapped the side match simply because we didn't have enough people willing to get up early to come out and help with setup.)

While I don't know if there is enough interest to warrant the incorporation of "tactical" rimfire matches into a currently existing or even new governing body, my guess would be that such sanctioning isn't really a necessity.

steel challenge is a blast no doubt...but i want more rimfire run and gun, reload on the clock, shoot from cover etc...



If you're really interested in participating in such a match, consider setting one up. You could go about doing this in a couple of different ways. If you want to bootstrap your own match, grab a few like-minded and helpful friends, draft some basic rules, find a range that's willing to allow you to run a match, and go to town. Admittedly, that can be a lot of work, and you'll have to contend with costs for things like targets, tape, holders and walls up front.

The other option would be to piggyback a rimfire side match onto an existing practical shooting match. Talk to a local match director and see if he'd be willing to allow you to take two or three stages per month and allow competitors to run them with a rimfire gun after the official match is over. There would be a couple of advantages to this:
1.) You've already got an audience there. Most of the people shooting the regular match will probably want to shoot a side match. (Just make sure that an announcement for the rimfire match goes out in the newsletter/email/web announcement for the regular match.)
2.) You don't have to worry as much about sourcing materials for running the match (timers, targets, stands, walls, etc.)
3.) Stage setup is easier. You're taking pre-existing stages and re-purposing them.
4.) Match fees can be passed on to the match director to defray the costs of using their stuff.

If you go this route, realize that you will have to convince the match director that you're willing to undertake and administer this yourself. For instance, they aren't going to want to deal with the hassles of signup or scoring for yet another match, so have a plan in place for taking care of those sorts of things ahead of time.

Frankly, I think the world would be better off with shooting competitions of all sorts, and we would all benefit from having people step up and volunteer to undertake running them.

Justin
July 25, 2011, 03:30 PM
and so you dont have one guy with a $4000 match gun having an advantage over the guy with the $300 gun.....you have price ranges....

essentially you have a $xxx match......where if you win the match, and someone offers to buy your gun for $xxx, you have to( or are at least strongly encouraged to) sell it to them.

and then the prize for 1st place would be something like 1/2 the price level of the match.......so if you win in the $300 class.....you get $150.

I see little utility in the concept of "racing for pinks" in the shooting sports.

Most competitions solve the issues of advantages arising from equipment disparity by incorporating rules that put various configurations of guns into different classifications. That way, the guy who's shooting an iron-sighted rifle doesn't have to compete against the guy with a 20x scope and a bipod.

Overall, equipment divisions works satisfactorily enough that I see no reason to try to force someone to sell a gun just because they won a match.

JohnBT
July 25, 2011, 04:44 PM
"Probably because the heart of USPSA shooting is built around the concept of defensive gun use."

Then they need to climb down off their high horses and start shooting at targets that shoot back. Otherwise it's just another game. Might as well be horseshoes or something. :)

Justin
July 25, 2011, 04:50 PM
And just exactly how do you propose to run a match with "targets that shoot back?"

Andrew Wyatt
July 25, 2011, 04:57 PM
your problem is you run matches, justin. Your experience is blinding you to the truth that people who have never shot a match in their life know.

anomoly40
July 25, 2011, 05:03 PM
Simunitions. :)

But really, why are Derrienger(sp?) so popular as defensive carry? Because they work. You don't have to vaporize the attacker. Snobs.

Justin
July 25, 2011, 05:04 PM
That would then be a paintball match or force on force training, not a shooting match.

anomoly40
July 25, 2011, 05:07 PM
Maybe PSP paintball is the new USPSA.

Andrew Wyatt
July 25, 2011, 05:11 PM
Can i get a show of hands in this thread of people who've shot a match?

anomoly40
July 25, 2011, 05:13 PM
I would if I could afford to. If they only had a cheaper way to get in...

Justin
July 25, 2011, 05:17 PM
Perhaps we ought to bring this thread back on topic, and discuss the feasibility of the OP's concept of instituting practicalish style matches with rimfire guns.

pikid89
July 25, 2011, 05:31 PM
i shot an ipsc match once with my glock 19 and I went through over 250 rounds through the course of the morning
that cost me close to 60 bucks in ammo, plus the match fee of $20, plus gas etc...=approx $90 for the day

if i could do the same day over with my Ruger MKII (which i would have but the director aka IPSC snob, said no), it would have only cost me about $10 in ammo, plus 20 for the match, plus gas= approx $40

that means i could have shot the next weekend too with the rest of the brick of 22, but alas, i had to shoot the 9mm

If you're really interested in participating in such a match, consider setting one up.
i would totally do this but i don't know much about running matches and I'm not a member of the only local range that does have matches at it

if anyone here is a member of or has pull at the the Gainesville Target Range, maybe we could get something going, as i may not be able to run one, but i would definitely help out any way possible

9mmepiphany
July 25, 2011, 06:25 PM
but the director aka IPSC snob, said no
Just a couple of clarifying points...which I feel might be based on lack of information or mis-information.

If it was a local match, it wasn't a IPSC match...the domestic body is the USPSA (United States Practical Shooting Assoc.). IPSC is the international sanctioning body.

USPSA competition was founded, back in the 60s, on a three legged foundation of Accuracy, Power and Speed...represented in their logo by the Latin DVC (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas) It was designed as a medium to test the ability to control a powerful enough (Power) handgun, well enough (Speed) to be effective (Accuracy) in a defensive situation. It would have been unfaithful to the roots of their foundation to take away one leg

Justin
July 25, 2011, 11:43 PM
There's nothing stopping you from running a .22 at a USPSA match. There's no rule against it. However, since the gun won't make minor power factor, you won't be able to shoot for score.

oldfool
July 26, 2011, 12:58 AM
I think OP is striving for heavy emphasis on fun factor, and very affordable fun at that

But... "it happens every time"... as soon as you introduce the words "match" or "competition" into the conversation, it quickly goes askew

There have always been very serious rimfire competition games (BR50 and silhouette come readily to mind), but typical of centerfire games, the emphasis on (safe) fun very quickly evolves/devolves into:
A) a hardware race, with heavy emphasis on $$$, and even in 'division' games, those with less costly hardware tend to be looked upon as second class citizens, who only do what they do because they be po' folks who cannot afford to "really" compete in prestige class with 'serious' people; a trend much encouraged just as soon as the game gets enough attention to be noticed by commercial sponsors
B) constant bickering about the rules, rules, rules - followed by the creation of more rules, rules, rules - followed by more bickering, of course - to the extent that someone will get really peevish about it, and go start a new competition game, with the perfect (?) set of 'new rules' - guaranteed to inspire flame games with participants in the prior game, of course, because they are 'doing it wrong'

All shooting games can be fun, but just as soon as the score takes precedence over the fun factor, safe shooting fun alone just isn't good enough any more. Human nature.

But the good news is, a couple of shooting buddies with a place to safely shoot rimfires can set up any course of fire they please, be it "22 golf" or pretend Steel Challenge, no governing body required, and the only rules that really count are the classic four. Doesn't really matter if one is shooting a Korth and the other a Rough Rider, nobody is actually keeping a scorecard, and you can wear whatever shoes you want.

Formal competition has many and varied serious merits, but fun requires no judge, 'da Judge being purely optional, whatever rings your chimes.

No disrespect intended towards any formal discipline, you know, but me, I already have more 'governing bodies' in my life than I really need.
But I never do seem to have enough brightly colored hard foam practice golf balls in the range bag; good thing we have a long open season on grasshopper hunting with scoped rimfires in south Georgia.

Maple_City_Woodsman
July 26, 2011, 02:11 AM
I fail to see how shooting an identical course of IDPA with a rim fire analogue is "not practical".

Another poster already said it - fundamentals are fundamental.

I realize that it may be hard for some competitors to maintain their combat shooting fantasy if everyone is using a Ruger MKIII, S&W 41, or a Whitney Wolverine, but if shooting the course with a Sig 226, or CZ-75 is "practical", then wouldn't the use of nearly identical analogues like the Mosquito, or CZ Kadet be just as practical?

oldfool
July 26, 2011, 02:37 AM
it's the Power Factor proposition, MCW, no matter how practical in 'practice'

truth be known, hard core IPDA (etc) competitors are well past the point where felt recoil and/or noise is a practical factor in their shooting, as is the case with any caliber competition; any well experienced shooter that throws really high round counts gets over that real early in the game

it would be a tad silly to say that shooting a 6" k-17 is really any different than slinging lead out of a 6" k-66 with same grips on both, but still...
low power factor is nonetheless contrary to the philosophy in the origins of the game, and you cannot really disrespect that

it's more than a tad unfair to presume these guys are really that into it as a 'combat shooting fantasy' you know
it's a speed/skill shooting game, and they all know nobody's shooting back, and they all know real gunfights never follow a rehearsed script
but the skills developed have serious merits for unrehearsed scenarios nonetheless
you can 'game' the real deal only so much unless holding the match in the middle of a war zone
(I do love to practice with a k-17, but it ain't on the bedside nightstand, the k-66 is)

Mike OTDP
July 26, 2011, 09:45 AM
Olympic Rapid Fire.

Anyone who's tried it will tell you it's a very demanding blend of speed and accuracy. Bring the gun up, put a shot into each of 5 targets. In 4 seconds. At 25 meters. And if you mean to win, your total group - for 60 shots - needs to be no bigger than about 4 inches.

Good fun. Try it.

pikid89
July 26, 2011, 11:26 AM
as fun as that looks, it seems that pretty much all of the olympic shooting sports have become at least in some aspects, gear races once again (the shooters are obviously immensely skilled regardless)
nobody at any high level of olympic style shooting is using the same guns you and i use
they're using hammerli or walther target pistols, not rugers or buck marks
they're using parker or high end beretta shotguns, not remingtons or winchester

TenMillimaster
July 26, 2011, 12:46 PM
OP, I think 22 shooting games are a great idea. Any shooting practice(andfun!) is still practice- which is definitely conducive to "practical" shooting, whatever that is.

M-Cameron
July 26, 2011, 01:10 PM
I see little utility in the concept of "racing for pinks" in the shooting sports.

Most competitions solve the issues of advantages arising from equipment disparity by incorporating rules that put various configurations of guns into different classifications. That way, the guy who's shooting an iron-sighted rifle doesn't have to compete against the guy with a 20x scope and a bipod.

Overall, equipment divisions works satisfactorily enough that I see no reason to try to force someone to sell a gun just because they won a match.

i was thinking more along the lines that people would compete with a gun they dont really care about, wouldnt mind selling/ trading or are somewhat looking to get rid of.......

this would be( in my mind) a very relaxed and informal atmosphere..

this certainty wouldnt be something youd shoot with your primary match gun, that youve spent countless hours and thousands of dollars building....

im thinking youd use that 10/22 you picked up at a pawn shop for $100.

1KPerDay
July 26, 2011, 01:19 PM
I don't see the big deal, myself. Our local club lets you run rimfire at any match if you like, you're just not scored with the "real shooters". And once a year there's a dedicated rimfire only match. Tons of fun.

I don't personally see how adding a .22 division would affect/harm USPSA/IPSC at all, other than maybe getting more people involved in the sport. Are they worried everyone will just switch to rimfire and nobody will shoot 'real' guns anymore? In my experience that has not been the case. It's rare to see a rimfire shooter (other than younger kids, perhaps) at our local 'practical' matches.

Justin
July 26, 2011, 03:19 PM
as fun as that looks, it seems that pretty much all of the olympic shooting sports have become at least in some aspects, gear races once again (the shooters are obviously immensely skilled regardless)
nobody at any high level of olympic style shooting is using the same guns you and i use
they're using hammerli or walther target pistols, not rugers or buck marks
they're using parker or high end beretta shotguns, not remingtons or winchester

Actually, the equipment for most of the Olympic shooting sports has pretty well matured. It's not that the games are "equipment races", but that the equipment used for the games at a certain level of competitiveness represents a certain barrier to entry.

If you're truly serious about shooting International Rapid Fire, or International 25 Meter Pistol, or Free Pistol, you will be willing to spend the money on the equipment used to operate at the highest levels. However, there's nothing stopping you from attending local matches and shooting them with your box-stock gun. For the first year that I shot Bullseye, I used a box-stock Ruger Mk II before graduating to a hand-me-down SW Mod. 46, and then finally stepping up to a GSP. No one ever talked down to me because of my equipment choices, but it became clear that certain competitive advantages became apparent with each successive iteration of gun.


When it comes to Practical Shooting Sports, the equipment costs for the average shooter are practically nil. You've already got a handgun. You've already got magazines. You've already got a holster. In short, you've already got a competition setup, and given that USPSA Production Division, and IDPA as an overall sport focus on those sorts of setups, there really isn't any sort of "equipment race" in any way that offers a tremendous advantage.

Justin
July 26, 2011, 03:26 PM
i was thinking more along the lines that people would compete with a gun they dont really care about, wouldnt mind selling/ trading or are somewhat looking to get rid of.......

this would be( in my mind) a very relaxed and informal atmosphere..

this certainty wouldnt be something youd shoot with your primary match gun, that youve spent countless hours and thousands of dollars building....

im thinking youd use that 10/22 you picked up at a pawn shop for $100.

Eh. I still don't see the appeal. In my experience, local-level Steel Challenge matches are incredibly laid back affairs, people shoot whatever gun they please without getting wrapped around the axle about it.

For instance, the rimfire pistol I run for Steel Challenge is a nearly box-stock Ruger 22/45 that (until it recently crapped out) was topped with an ADCO red dot scope. I can't say as I was particularly perturbed that I was competing against other shooters with differently configured open-class .22s, including a Beretta with an Aimpoint Micro and a fully-blown rimfire racegun with a Volquartsen trigger group and a Tactical Solutions top end.

That said, if you think a match like the one you've proposed would be fun, you ought to get it set up and run it at your local range.

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