Norway tragedy: politics proposing further gun control laws


PDA






vaupet
July 25, 2011, 11:31 AM
After the Norway tragedy, our foreign minister, mr Steven Vanacker was very quick in proposing Europe enforced very strict gun control laws.

I don't believe this could be a solution, on the contrary, I suppose that if 10% of the people on the island would have been CCW, there would have been considerably less casualties.

Questions:
1: are there examples of the public preventing or adressing shootings in the US
2: is their a pan-european equivalent to the NRA?

thanks

Peter

If you enjoyed reading about "Norway tragedy: politics proposing further gun control laws" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
razorback2003
July 25, 2011, 12:30 PM
I assumed that Norway has pretty strict gun control laws, such as licensing of owners and registration. That is much stricter than anywhere in the USA. From what I have read, people must have a reason to own any sort of firearm in Norway. That is pretty strict by American standards. It doesn't appear people there can walk into their friendly gun store when they want and buy a handgun and walk out the door after filling out simple paperwork and a background check. It also doesn't appear people in Norway can just buy guns legally from friends or relatives like Americans do. Again, that is strict to Americans.

ArmedOkie
July 25, 2011, 12:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheArmedCitizen

ArmedOkie
July 25, 2011, 12:37 PM
i can't find mention of a european gun rights group, but i did find this, which happened in 2007, kinda disturbing

http://concealed.wordpress.com/2007/10/27/switzerland-strips-all-citizens-of-gun-rights/


i've always worried thats the way we'll lose OUR rights.

Owen Sparks
July 25, 2011, 12:42 PM
The murdered used a bomb and a machine gun both are illegal for common citizens in Norway. He dressed in a police uniform to aid him in shooting up the kids camp. That was also illegal. Laws did not stop this guy.

ArmedOkie
July 25, 2011, 12:53 PM
your right owen,

it appears we are wrong here! for some reason, when people are intent on breaking the law, they don't adhere to the laws! who'da thunkit... we'll have to rethink this gun control thing... oh wait no we won't, we'll just make MORE gun control laws.

NMBrian
July 25, 2011, 01:05 PM
Too bad Murder isnt illegal in Norway....this whole thing could have been prevented.



oh wait.

jcwit
July 25, 2011, 01:18 PM
If a guy who is not a farmer can slip thru the net buying 6 tons of fertilizer, any thing can slip thru.

More gun laws won't help.

hq
July 25, 2011, 01:28 PM
The murdered used a bomb and a machine gun both are illegal for common citizens in Norway. He dressed in a police uniform to aid him in shooting up the kids camp. That was also illegal. Laws did not stop this guy.

Actually the long gun he used was a regular Mini 14, a reasonably common small game rifle in Scandinavia as well. Some highly biased british reporters have called it "automatic", which is the source of widespread misinformation. I'm not quite sure about the full auto legislation in Norway, but in Finland full auto guns are fairly common among registered collectors. However, there hasn't been a single incident in the country, ever, where a legally owned full auto firearm has used in a crime.

In a number of european countries there has been a rising environmental-leftist movement that aims to ban all private ownership of firearms. They're well funded, systematical and persistent - it took less than 24 hours to have the first finnish (he's a known stalinist) politician to step up and demand stricter gun laws in Finland so incidents like this can be prevented.

Many european countries don't have any kind of gun rights organization, except for publicly funded and toothless sport shooting organizations. Notable exceptions are Switzerland (Pro Tell), Germany (Waffenrecht) and Finland (NRA).

gym
July 25, 2011, 01:44 PM
Once again we see that anyone can committ an act such as this. It's impossible to stop and even more rediculous to try and legislate to attempt to safegaurd against. It's impossible to know what is going on in every persons head.
Having a more liberal carry policy will help in some of these cases, "other than Bombs", I don't know how this one ended but usually the attacker kills themselves or is eventually killed by police. More people need to realize that citizens who are armed are a deterent to at least this spray type of murder.

Standing Wolf
July 25, 2011, 02:03 PM
Laws don't prevent crimes. Laws make activities into crimes, which can then be legally punished.

Norway and all other civilized nations already has laws against murder. Once a criminal decides to break one law, it doesn't matter whether he breaks one or a thousand laws: he's nothing more nor nothing less than a law-breaker.

The task is to discover how to identify crazy people, not write more laws that will be broken by crazy people.

Owen Sparks
July 25, 2011, 02:15 PM
The problen with laws against things (like guns) is that they presuppose guilt based on potential for future criminal action.

Murder is the crime.

Having a tool that MIGHT be misused in a crime is not the same thing as actually using that tool for evil purposes.

hq
July 25, 2011, 02:18 PM
More people need to realize that citizens who are armed are a deterent to at least this spray type of murder.

I already asked this from a number of frontline politicians on saturday. Response can't really described in words, "hysterical" is an understatement. I'd bet quite a few of the victims prayed for a gun in the end. I most certainly would have, but then again, I carry so I don't have to put all my faith in a prayer and one hour response time of the police.

One armed citizen could've made a huge difference, but that's something left-wing politicians will never admit. There even was an unarmed cop among the victims.

george29
July 25, 2011, 03:32 PM
IBTL. From the things I read Norway is not anti gun nor are they pro. I believe they rightfully see guns as tools for sports and hunting and not for SD. The Norwegian newspaper article I read (Google News) basically said that new laws would not be enacted just because of this incident and that freedoms would not be diminished. If that is true, then we here (USA) have much to learn from Norway that is not acting in a Knee-Jerk fashion. (I could be wrong, it was after all a newspaper).

Let's hope the Stalanist's in Norway lose the use of their tongues. Thanks hq!

Justin
July 25, 2011, 03:52 PM
I have little knowledge on Norway's laws, but my general impression is that their laws are quite strict by US standards, but somewhat liberal by European ones.

That said, it appears that the killer bought his firearms by going through the legal channels to do so. Presumably, US anti-gun activists would like similar laws enacted here (mandatory training, can only have a handgun if you are a participant in a sanctioned shooting sport, etc.) and this incident only serves to demonstrate that such laws can and will be circumvented by those with evil intentions.

El Mariachi
July 25, 2011, 04:17 PM
Any sightings yet of Mrs. Brady leaving her favorite travel agency?.....

MachIVshooter
July 25, 2011, 04:20 PM
1: are there examples of the public preventing or adressing shootings in the US

Tons. But using us as an example probably won't get you what you want. The U.S. is a huge country with more than 60 times the population of Norway, and an incredibly diverse one at that. Because of that diversity, and the greater disparity between top and bottom economically speaking, we have always had a higher crime rate and probably always will. Would more or less guns change that? No one can say for sure, but the prevailing wisdom from people who should actually be taken seriously is that no, it has no real impact.

When Britain virtually banned guns, their gun crime dropped, but the overall violent crime did not. It actually increased, though it is purely speculative to say that the ban was causal.

Criminals will be criminals, and they will use whatever tools they can find to do their bidding. In the US, firearms are more available, and thus more commonly used. In the UK, firearms are far less prevalent, and so thugs use knives, clubs, fists and other improvised weapons. Statistically speaking, you are less likely to be murdered but more likely to be a victim of violent crime in the UK. This has not changed much since the days when Britain didn't have such strict controls; Like Norway, the UK has always had a lower homicide rate than the US.

The Homicide rate in the US waxes and wanes a bit, but it seems to do so completely independent of gun laws and ownership/CCW at that time. The economy seems to be a much more important factor

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that both sides are wrong. More guns does not equal more crime, nor does it equal less.

However, restricting ownership of firearms by law abiding citizens means denying them the ability to defend themselves using one of the most effective tools we have. I'd much rather live here in the US and face a higher risk of being murdered yet have the ability to defend myself than live in the UK or elsewhere where I'm more likely to survive an assault, but also more likely to be assaulted and have no means other than my own physical strength by which to avoid it.

pbearperry
July 25, 2011, 04:30 PM
Police Officer uniforms and summer camps should be done away with.

ArmedOkie
July 25, 2011, 04:43 PM
rofl

HorseSoldier
July 25, 2011, 05:04 PM
I have little knowledge on Norway's laws, but my general impression is that their laws are quite strict by US standards, but somewhat liberal by European ones.

+1. Scandinavia in general is more gun friendly than continental western Europe (+/- Switzerland) but things are pretty tight all the same. Still, they have better gun laws in Norway than California . . . :rolleyes:

TexasBill
July 25, 2011, 05:42 PM
In Norway, ownership of rifles, shotguns and handguns is allowed, but there is a fair amount of red tape - a hunting license requires a 30-hour, 9-session course with a written exam, a sport shooting license requires a shorter course, but the applicant must prove they intend to engage in sport shooting by active participation in a gun club for six months, using the club's guns in competition, before they can get permission to buy their own firearm (a hunter can apply for permission to purchase a firearm immediately).

Permits are also granted for those employed as security or bodyguards but almost never purely for self-defense (almost no European government recognizes self-defense as a legitimate need to own a firearm).

Individuals with hunting licenses can own up to four handguns, but only one in any particular caliber. Sport shooters can have two in a caliber, as one is considered a spare.

The poor response time of the police was caused by the fact it took nearly an hour before the Beredskapstroppen, their version of a SWAT team, was called out. It took them 20 minutes to reach Utoya and another 20 to reach Anders Breivik.

Something the needs to be understood is that, although Norwegian police officers are issued HK P30 pistols, they don't always carry them. Most of the time, they are locked in the patrol cars. Trond Berntsen, the off-duty officer killed in Utoya, was unarmed when he tried to challenge Breivik after Berntsen had gotten his 10-year-old son to safety. Berntsen was working as a security guard at the camp.

So, IF the Norwegian police were like American police and carried their weapons 24/7/365, and IF Berntsen could have gotten the drop on Breivik, the outcome might have been different.

The same is true of the shooting of Gabrielle Giffords. Joe Zamudio, who was armed and in the area, responded, but by the time he arrived, unarmed civilians had already gotten Loughner pinned to the ground. IF Zamudio had been in the crowd and IF he could have deployed his weapon and drop Loughner, perhaps Loughner would not have been able to shoot and kill as many as he did.

The truth is that the odds of this type of criminal being stopped by an armed civilian are slim and we should be grateful when such situations occur. There just aren't enough people who will get the permit and carry the weapon to make a better outcome more likely.

BTW: In response to an earlier comment: Gun crime in Great Britain is up, though it's not anything like the armed crime rate in the U.S. The gangs that are causing so many problems have easy access to guns. This is why armed British police are patrolling certain parts of London and one of the reasons there is discussion of arming all British police.

vaupet
July 25, 2011, 06:21 PM
Texas Bill is right, just of the news, I heard that one of the ongoing discussions in Norway is wether police should be armed at all times.

Incidentally, the LEO killed is the stepbrother to the Norwegian crownprincess.

on the other hand, I don't know about Norway buth in Belgium, most LEO are poorly trained. They have a budget allowing something like 100 rounds of ammo for training, usually shot in 4 sessions per YEAR. The local police make use of our clubs range and their targets look like you would expect from someone only shooting 100 rounds/year of 9 mm out of a 50 year old BHP.

Sebastian the Ibis
July 25, 2011, 06:35 PM
I'd like to applaud the King of Norway who instead of blaming the gun, or proposing new laws said:

“I remain convinced that the belief in freedom is stronger than fear. I remain convinced in the belief of an open Norwegian democracy and society. I remain convinced in the belief in our ability to live freely and safely in our own country.’’ Cite here (http://articles.boston.com/2011-07-24/news/29810424_1_shooting-spree-oslo-police-government-building/3)

What a pity that this Monarch knows more about democracy and freedom than Nancy Pelosi

RedAlert
July 25, 2011, 06:38 PM
You can regulate guns and other items used as dangerous weapons all you want. At some level, a person bent on doing harm to another will find a tool that will do the job. Eventually you come down to bare hands. Folks have been strangled for centuries.

So it comes to the mind. Until such time as civilized nations band together to understand and treat the diseased mind, develop better screening, etc. we will continue to have disturbed individuals doing insane things by killing scores of people. No law, no matter how restrictive will stop these events until we care for the diseased mind.

My heart goes out to the devastated friends and families of those slain in Norway.

KJS
July 25, 2011, 08:14 PM
Reading what wikipedia has to say about gun laws in Norway they appear quite permissive by typical global standards (though restrictive by American standards, American standards that I deem far too restrictive).

Not even close to the draconian restrictions that the UK or Austrailia have which effectively amount to gun bans.

Of course, both the Brits & Aussies ended up where there are after both having a knee-jerk reaction to a spree shooting. One can reasonably speculate that Norway might well go down the same path of banning substantially all firearms as they did.

This makes the Dunblane Masacre look small by comparison. Doesn't this Norway incident now hold the world record for most killed in a spree shooting ever? Bigger masacre would make me expect even bigger reaction from gun grabbers that are always standing at the ready to pounce upon tragedy to further their political agenda.

We've told every gun used by Mexican drug cartels was handed to them by you crazy NRA members. Wonder how they're going to link this Norweigan nut's gun to the US? Did he watch a US action film that showed gun fire, pushing him over the edge?

KJS
July 25, 2011, 08:16 PM
At some level, a person bent on doing harm to another will find a tool that will do the job. Eventually you come down to bare hands. Folks have been strangled for centuries.

You mean like hijack a tanker truck full of gasoline & drive it full speed into as crowded place as you can find?

I doubt I gave any nuts ideas there. If I can come up with that off the top of my head in all of a second, surely those intent on doing harm thought of it too.

VintovkaMosin
July 25, 2011, 09:16 PM
If the killer bought his gun through a legal channel, then it only gives pro gun control people steam, and over in Norway it indicates that stricter gun laws might be the next (mistaken) step. Like anything else, be it guns, civil unions, abortion etc., just because a minority abuse that right gives no bigwig to ban it altogether.

The grand majority of the laws have no legitimate purpose (Code 922 for example). Hopefully, what happened there will have no bearing on what happens here.

trueg50
July 25, 2011, 09:35 PM
Sadly there are just some threats you cannot defend against, and protection only goes so far. At some point you just have to take an element of risk and allow many different firearms to be sold, or allow people on planes without a full cavity search.

To ban entire classes of weapons and deprive thousands of law abiding citizens defense and a popular pastime is not the answer.

Owen Sparks
July 25, 2011, 09:37 PM
Norway still has a king?

Water-Man
July 25, 2011, 09:51 PM
The sooner the USA discontinues its membership in the UN, the better.

armoredman
July 25, 2011, 09:54 PM
Yes, Owen, another Constitutional Morachy, but King Harald has far less power than the Queen of England.

threefeathers
July 25, 2011, 09:58 PM
Norway has managed to make sheep of it's people and is leading them to the slaughter.

Danb1215
July 25, 2011, 10:07 PM
If this happened in the United States the Assault Weapons Ban would already have been reenacted.

AethelstanAegen
July 25, 2011, 10:24 PM
Norway has managed to make sheep of it's people and is leading them to the slaughter.

threedfeathers, I think you're way off base here. From talking with my relatives in Norway, there doesn't seem to be any stigma with gun ownership. The reality is that up until now, Norway has had very low levels of crime...so firearms for self-defense were not common. The only real concern was for invasion (a remnant of being occupied in WW2) which has died down as a threat after the Cold War.

I suspect that you may find more Norwegians applying for firearms for home defense (and I imagine it will be much harder for the government to argue it would be unnecessary). We'll have to see what happens, but Norwegians tend to be very pragmatic so I'm hoping we won't see a knee-jerk reaction like you might in other countries. Anyways, my point is, anyone familiar with Norway would not call the Norwegians sheep.

Owen, there is still a king (Harald V), but it's a much more subdued affair than in the UK. He's really a figure head but by all accounts not at all aloof; my relatives say it was not all that uncommon to see him just walking around Oslo (though that has changed a bit since the assassination of Olof Palme in 1986). Thanks for passing on that quote Sebastian the Ibis.

JellyJar
July 25, 2011, 10:38 PM
Here are a couple of links by Massad Ayoob that tells of armed citizens in Israel stopping armed terrorists:

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob90.html

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob81.html

malt
July 25, 2011, 10:54 PM
Hi,
To answer some of the tings in this tread.

There is a organization similar to NRA in Norway its called Norsk våpeneierforbund.

You can have 6 hunting guns whit out to much problems, if you have the training. If you need more you have to have very well documented reasons.

You can also have rifles for long range shooting, target shooting (DFS)(But you can't use these guns for hunting).

If you are clever and shoot much, you can have lots of hand guns one (in some cases 2) for every shooting program.

And yes there has been some connections to the US, he bought 10, 30 rounds mags on the US. He could have purchased them in Norway but hey were to expensive.

PMK

The_Shootist
July 25, 2011, 11:15 PM
And yes there has been some connections to the US, he bought 10, 30 rounds mags on the US. He could have purchased them in Norway but hey were to expensive.


Seriously? He was able to buy and import hi-caps from the US? I find that kinda surprising - not just in his ability to do so but maybe even that it didn't raise any red flags at your customs.

As an aside, I always thought that the Norwegian "liberal" take on firearms was due to the memory as to how quickly the Nazi's overran them in WWII. Hopefully that memory overshadows this tragedy.

Like a poster mentioned above, more people might be buying firearms for home-defense but the leap to CCW I suspect is too great for ANY European gov't to stomach, regardless of the cultural attitudes about firearms.

What MIGHT happen, is a few owners of handguns (and from the sounds of it, their numbers in Norway might be material) might start packing "illegally".
Should one of them intervene successfully to stop a similiar incident in the future, then everything gets turned on its head.

malt
July 25, 2011, 11:28 PM
It's not illegal to import mags to Norway, and there it a lot of guns in Norway every third Norwegian has a weapon.

hq
July 25, 2011, 11:29 PM
Seriously? He was able to buy and import hi-caps from the US? I find that kinda surprising - not just in his ability to do so but maybe even that it didn't raise any red flags at your customs.

Ordering hi-cap magazines from the US isn't exactly uncommon and the customs couldn't care less, magazines aren't regulated in most european countries at all. Strangely enough, I've purchased magazines from norwegian retailers a couple of times.

As far as illegal CCW is concerned, it happens at least in Finland. As long as you can prove you're on your way to/from a shooting range, it's legal to carry on your person as long as the gun isn't loaded. Having full magazines with you is borderline illegal. We've had our fair share of school massacres, two that is, and in neither one anyone else had a gun.

Antis had a field day, though, and recent changes in legislation have made me, for example, ineligible for further hadgun permits because I can't show two years worth of active shooting hobby in the supervision of a "gun instructor". It doesn't matter that I already own several dozens of guns and, nowadays, shoot about 7-8k rounds a year. All this to "reduce gun violence".

Gee, I already feel a lot safer.

malt
July 25, 2011, 11:43 PM
The list of country's whit the most weapons is USA, Finland, Yemen, Switzerland and Norway. The problem for us in Europe is that is getting harder to import guns and parts from the US just to much paperwork. The worst part is getting it out of the US It's much simpler to get it in.

armoredman
July 26, 2011, 01:25 AM
Someday I need to visit Norway, family came from there in 1824. :) As for magazines, importing them INTO the US can be a pain - ask me about my trial getting a vz-58 20 round magazine last year, when US Customs got involved.
I would hope this helps change the laws for the better, for self defense, but I doubt it.

MachIVshooter
July 26, 2011, 01:44 AM
At some level, a person bent on doing harm to another will find a tool that will do the job. Eventually you come down to bare hands. Folks have been strangled for centuries.

You mean like hijack a tanker truck full of gasoline & drive it full speed into as crowded place as you can find?

Or a commercial airliner and fly it into a sky scraper..........

If this happened in the United States the Assault Weapons Ban would already have been reenacted.

We've had several high profile shootings since the AWB sunset. The usual suspects always wave the bloody clothes of the victims before the bodies have even cooled, clammoring for more laws. But by and large, people in this country have generally changed their views since 9-11. Instead of screaming for more gun control, people who never wanted guns before became gun owners. Every time one of these incidents happens, the local gun shops and CCW instructors get innundated for a time. Shoot, half of the clientele at my buddy's shop where I help out are brand new to the world of firearms. The overwhelming majority of them basically share the same sentiment: They've figured out that they are responsible for their own safety and have decided to add one more tool/skill to their self preservation kit.

Believe me, if big O thought for one second he could push a new AWB through, he would have. But his political capital is in dire straights, and he seems unwilling to sacrifice what little he has left in such an attempt.

Ben86
July 26, 2011, 02:06 AM
The anti gun crowd will do the same old song and dance they do for every gun related tragedy. We with logic just have to point out obvious flaws in their approach. For instance, how disarming everyone leaves people vulnerable to mass murderers until the police finally get there.

Evil people can go on rampages at any time. The worst thing to do is to disarm almost everyone (even the police?!!), except those that would do malicious harm.

Allowing for concealed carry, arming all police officers with at least a sidearm and making it harder for people with mental problems to buy firearms (and tons of explosive material) will go far in preventing this sort of tragedy from repeating. More gun control will do the opposite.

MachIVshooter
July 26, 2011, 02:21 AM
making it harder for people with mental problems to buy firearms (and tons of explosive material) will go far in preventing this sort of tragedy from repeating. More gun control will do the opposite.

Please explain to the rest of us how restricting firearm ownership from a class of people who are not criminals is not gun control.

And to take it further, what are "mental problems"? Depression? Anxiety? PTSD? How many doctors have to concurr with the diagnosis? Who decides which "problems" warrant forfeiture of 2A rights?

ArmedOkie
July 26, 2011, 02:31 AM
Dr. samuel johnson's right about olson johnson bein' right.

Danb1215
July 26, 2011, 02:42 AM
The anti gun crowd will do the same old song and dance they do for every gun related tragedy. We with logic just have to point out obvious flaws in their approach. For instance, how disarming everyone leaves people vulnerable to mass murderers until the police finally get there.

Evil people can go on rampages at any time. The worst thing to do is to disarm almost everyone (even the police?!!), except those that would do malicious harm.

Allowing for concealed carry, arming all police officers with at least a sidearm and making it harder for people with mental problems to buy firearms (and tons of explosive material) will go far in preventing this sort of tragedy from repeating. More gun control will do the opposite.
Can you explain why gun control is bad and why explosives control is good? What are some of the theoretical differences you see? There was a time in the United States when anyone could buy dynamite freely at the period equivalent of a Wal-Mart and the world didn't descend into chaos. The necessity of regulating anything is at best a myth and at worst a lie.

withdrawn34
July 26, 2011, 03:35 AM
What the media fails to mention is that he originally attempted to procure his weapons in Prague, due to BBC reports that the Czech Republic was a haven for illicit gun trafficking. As you know, the Czech Republic has some of the most liberal gun laws in Europe. If you are a citizen in good standing, you can even get a concealed carry permit.

He failed. He completely failed. He even brought along a vehicle with hollowed out rear seats. He also mentioned he felt safer in Prague than in Oslo. Prague has one of the lowest crime rates out of all the European capitals.

Interesting.

vaupet
July 26, 2011, 04:45 AM
txs for thelinks to Massad Ayoobs articles on Israel.

After the shooting in Holland last april, one of our leading newspapers in Belgium (de standaard) mention that gun control doesn't work and they stated the Israel example. Now for israel: every Jew, male or female, is due to forfil an extensif military service (and training) so people are always prepared.

To clarify some obvious confusion, the politic who wants more gun control is BELGIAN, not Norwegian, and he is looking for very strict EU regulation, so a local, national "NRA-type" organisation won't cut it, we would need a European pro-liberty organisation.

greetings

Peter

feedthehogs
July 26, 2011, 05:04 AM
As usual the root cause of this incident and others like it around the world will be swept away and instead dismissed as just some nut job with a grudge.

Funny though when governments commit mass murder, somehow its okay and justified and no one is ever prosecuted.

As has been already stated so well, no amount of laws will stop these incidents from happening in the future. More laws means more crimminals, many of whom don't even know it.

Mp7
July 26, 2011, 08:44 AM
Actually the main stance of the populace & govt seems to be:

Don´t let islamists, islamophobes, racists and christian fundamentalists
take away our freedom. They want to keep their open society.

If the shooter had known this would be societies´reaction, he would have probably shot himself instead.

Norway has a lot of space, game, and guns. And is one of the moste peaceful countries in the world. And they do like that.

It´s not black&white. Never.

They have awesome social-care for their citizens - and liberal gun-laws.
And the combo of both makes it a better place than the US or my homecountry. IMHO.

TexasBill
July 26, 2011, 09:32 AM
Norway will probably be just fine. The Norwegians have a strong firearms tradition involved with both hunting and sport shooting and, as has been mentioned by someone who should know, there are lots of guns already in civilian hands.

As far as weapons for self-defense, they may not have seen a pressing need for them. Even police shootings are rare: in the 10 years between 1994 and 2004, the entire Norwegian Police Service fired less than two boxes of ammo in the line of duty and one of those boxes was used in a single incident. In the past 50 years, eight Norwegian police officers have been killed by gunfire. The overall homicide rate in Norway through 2010 is 0.6 per 100,000 population; ours is 5.0. (the Czech Republic's is 1.94; in Slovakia, it's 1.74)

We need to quit judging them by our standards. While Norway, as it exists today, has been independent since 1905, its roots and traditions stretch back thousands of years. The country enjoys the highest human development index in the world, so they are apparently doing something that works for them, though we would probably call them socialists.

What I would worry about is our homegrown whackos, like the Brady Bunch and the VPC, and the anti-gun forces other European countries. Fortunately, Norway is the only Scandinavian country that isn't a member of the European Union. so the EU isn't able to force things on it.

Funny though, when governments commit mass murder, somehow it's okay and justified and no one is ever prosecuted.

That's because governments reserve the right to use force to themselves, supposedly because they will use it to protect the governed and maybe bring in some fresh cash through wars of conquest. Neat how that works, isn't it?

MachIVshooter
July 26, 2011, 10:18 AM
The country enjoys the highest human development index in the world, so they are apparently doing something that works for them, though we would probably call them socialists.

There is a certain amount of socialism there, and taxes are quie high. But then, so in median income.

My Aunt lives in Norway; When she visits, she loves to gloat about how well those services work. But it is easy to qwell her horn tooting when you point out the small population and relative lack of ethnic/religious/class diversity as compared to the United States. Socialized medicine might work OK in a country with 5 million Scandanavians, but it's a whole different ball of wax when you have 300 million people of every imaginable race, creed and nationality.

IMO, everything is relative. We enjoy more freedom than any other nation, but it comes at a cost. I'm at peace with that (and yes, my family has been survivors of homicides). Anyone who is not should leave rather than try to change us.

Besides which, Ultimately, the nations in which the population suffers the most henious acts have historically been those with the fewest personal freedoms. I don't see that trend changing.

Sav .250
July 26, 2011, 11:02 AM
Max 21 year sentence........... I`d start there!

vaupet
July 26, 2011, 11:44 AM
that's right but Norwgians covered that to: after the 21 years, they can prolong it without trial with another 5 and again and again, until death if you are considered still a danger to society

Hugo
July 26, 2011, 11:47 AM
The Norwegian terrorist will not get out in 21 years. He won't ever get out and will be busy keeping himself safe in prison.

Norway is unlike most of Europe in that they are a bit socialist leaning but understand the importance of community and being practical with resources. Being invaded and occupied by the Nazi's often does that, just ask Poland.

In this extremely rare case they were unprepared for a very, very determined madman who planned for years his many crimes around Norway's security and police. Most countries would be unprepared for this lone Timothy McVeigh style psychopath.

Considering that 2-10% (definitely varies by city, country, and recent trauma causing events) of the 6 billion people on this planet are "crazy and or psychopaths" it's a little surprising this doesn't happen in more countries. I'm sure many countries cover things up (China, Soviet Russia, North Korea, etc..) and keep them out of the media. Heck..., Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, Mao, were high functioning psychopaths who seized political power.

Weapons aren't so much the problem as evil psychopaths and sociopaths are.
The whole world needs more mental health care. Not gun control. Treat the disease, not the symptom.

Meditation helps too.

SSN Vet
July 26, 2011, 05:04 PM
Chuck Colson has an interesting write up concerning Norway's enlightened views about violent criminals...

http://links.mkt3980.com/servlet/MailView?ms=MTgwNzIwMQS2&r=MTMyMjM0ODg5OAS2&j=Mjk4MjczMTUS1&mt=1&rt=0

They basically treat them all as if they were victims of mental illness who simply need more therapy.

Good and Evil are such old fashioned concepts.

SSN Vet
July 26, 2011, 05:07 PM
Norway's prosperity stems from great oil wealth and a small population in a largely isolated area.

heeler
July 26, 2011, 05:17 PM
That Colson article was an interesting read.
I had almost forgotten about Colson until reading that.
Those Norweigian corrections people/psychiatrists would be in way over their heads with the violent offenders we have locked down here...Especially the ones on Death Row.
Glad we have the ability and will to keep them locked down here.

SSN Vet
July 26, 2011, 05:30 PM
Those Norweigian corrections people/psychiatrists would be in way over their heads with the violent offenders we have locked down here...Especially the ones on Death Row.

Potty Training!

the cause of so many troubles in this world.

malt
July 26, 2011, 08:36 PM
The is a new law that can hold him in prison fore 30 years. But i guess he will get 21 years in prison and then he will be held in custody for the rest of his life.
There is a lot of talk about the prison system in Norway criminals have it better than old folks living in a nursing home . So that's some thing we all know over here!

Mp7
July 27, 2011, 06:40 AM
Chuck Colson ... links on a board like THR ....

What´s next?

#facepalm ...seriously.

Neverwinter
July 27, 2011, 11:36 AM
They basically treat them all as if they were victims of mental illness who simply need more therapy.

Good and Evil are such old fashioned concepts.
What is their recidivism rate compared to other countries? If it is lower, examining the causes would be a worthwhile effort.

Or we could just gloss over the problem with a pithy quote.

Ben86
July 27, 2011, 01:01 PM
Can you explain why gun control is bad and why explosives control is good?

Lack of practical purpose and ability to cause an extensive deal of harm perhaps. 6 tons? Come on, he should never been allowed to purchase that much.

Please explain to the rest of us how restricting firearm ownership from a class of people who are not criminals is not gun control.

And to take it further, what are "mental problems"? Depression? Anxiety? PTSD? How many doctors have to concurr with the diagnosis? Who decides which "problems" warrant forfeiture of 2A rights?

What I meant was more draconian gun control, such as bans, will make the country more dangerous. Yes, restricting firearms to the mentally ill is gun control. I know that's a slippery slope, but obviously there does exist people who are not mentally capable of responsibly owning firearms. I'm not psychologist, so I'm not going to list off mental disorders that should apply.

AethelstanAegen
July 27, 2011, 01:24 PM
Chuck Colson ... links on a board like THR ....
What´s next?
#facepalm ...seriously.

+1 I think we can forego any discussion of the content in his article. Until we see any verification from secondary sources of anything he said, it's highly suspect to me. I find it highly doubtful that he knew any murdered Norwegian correctional officer. Let's keep the discussion to possible greater gun control in Norway (and other European countries as the OP was from Belgium) and not source articles that say the terrorist attack was the result of Norway being "sinful and secular." :rolleyes:

If the shooter had known this would be societies´reaction, he would have probably shot himself instead.

The BBC had some footage of an interview with Anders Breivik's father who said he wishes his son would have just shot himself instead:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14288184

GunJournalist
July 27, 2011, 01:52 PM
the weapon used in this attack came as somewhat of a shock to me. when i heard from mainstream media that the attacker used a Machine gun the first thing that popped into my head was "bologna" (heh well paraphrasing to be plolite) so i did a bit of sleuthing and digging until i came across his manifesto. i started reading before i realized that this man was insane and that the words were hurting my brain.

so i stopped and went to find a condensed, less insane, summary of his 1500 page rip off of the uni-bomber. i found said source and did a bit of research only to find that he had used a Ruger Mini 14 chambered in .223 i was stunned, and actually he had really kitted it out. he opted for a barrel clamp on picatinny rail system with a laser on one side and a flashlight on the other, on the bottom was a combination bi-pod and fore-grip. On top he was running an EOtech 552 holographic sight with a 3x magnifier, some serious glass.

but, and this is a major but, it is NOT in any way shape or form a machine-gun or military rifle. it is missing two key components a Flash hider and a pistol grip. if it had those it could be considered an assault weapon, as it sits in the police vault it's a "tacti-cool" monstrosity. seriously google Anders Behring Breivik Mini 14 you'll see what i mean.

rbernie
July 27, 2011, 01:55 PM
The OP was asked and answered a while back ,and we have strayed into topics of mental health and somesuch that are not appropriate for THR.

Let's let this one go, ok?

If you enjoyed reading about "Norway tragedy: politics proposing further gun control laws" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!