Ok whats a dum dum bullet?


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casey44mag
July 25, 2011, 02:38 PM
The guy in norway used bumbum bullets(i heard on the radio) whats a dumdum and whats the difference between them and a hollow point? they look just like a hollowpoint to me........

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mdauben
July 25, 2011, 02:45 PM
The guy in norway used bumbum bullets(i heard on the radio) whats a dumdum and whats the difference between them and a hollow point? they look just like a hollowpoint to me........
Its a rather archaic term for any type of bullet that is designed to expand on impact (generally HP or SP bullets). I guess the radio reporter thought it sounded scarier and/or more evil than hollow-point. :rolleyes:

CWL
July 25, 2011, 02:46 PM
Dum Dum was a British arsenal in India and was where they cut the tips off-of jacketed bullets to expose the lead core in order to create expansion. These caused horrific wounds. Sometimes it was thought that soldiers themselves cut an "x" into the tip of their lead bullets to cause additional expansion.

Dum Dums were expressly banned by the Hague Convention 1899 for military warfare, but modern hollow-points are a direct result of these early efforts to increase the effectiveness of ammunition.

george29
July 25, 2011, 02:48 PM
Great answer. I didn't know that!

ball3006
July 25, 2011, 02:49 PM
The news report I heard this morning said he was using bullets that exploded on contact.....chris3

Byrd666
July 25, 2011, 03:08 PM
This what I just found
Definition for "dum dum bullet" : 1. An expanding bullet design originally developed by the British military units stationed at the Dum Dum Arsenal in India. In order to compensate for the issuance of smaller caliber, jacketed ammunition, the soldiers began cutting the jackets off at the nose in order to assist in terminal expansion; 2. A slang term used to refer to any type of soft-nose or hollow point bullet.

What I read on cnn and yahoo sounded more like a Hydrashok or fragmentary round rather than a dumdum round.

hq
July 25, 2011, 03:19 PM
The news report I heard this morning said he was using bullets that exploded on contact.....chris3

What "dumdum" describes is effectively a normal, expanding hunting bullet. Media dug up the ancient term for propaganda purposes. The ones in question could have been frangible bullets as an autopsy doctor who was interviewed mentioned that all he could find was small bits and fragments.

Something like ~40gr varmint ammo, I'd guess.

ny32182
July 25, 2011, 03:25 PM
Has anyone heard what kind of gun it was?

HoosierQ
July 25, 2011, 03:26 PM
Somebody read dum dum bullet in a bad crime novel (even though it was a real thing) and used it here.

In the 19th century, bullets were all heavy, soft lead, and traveled at relatively low velocity so the need for hollow points was not so acute. With the advent of the jacketed bullet in rifles and then in pistols, the tendency for a bullet to over penetrate and carry much of its energy out the other side became an issue. Now such wounds are quite devastating no doubt about it but in hunting the ideas is to stop the game animal in its tracks so that it can be dispatched quickly and humanely and not get away...especially if you're hungry.

Military ammo remained non-expanding because a) you're not needing to eat the target and if the target runs away and you never see him again that is tactically suitable to most missions, and b) fragmenting bullets make treating the wound very difficult and the risk of infection goes way up which is again, needless to most missions...out of action and back home with the family is just fine for most missions. Now mind you, military ammo is most assuredly NOT designed to be less-than-lethal. Much training goes into increasing the lethality of both the soldier and the ammo. It's just that if you do not hit a vital, or if you over-penetrate, you're ok.

Police use hollow points because they have no "front" or "rear" and are doing their job in a crowd and cannot have penetration of the target.

Shooting folks is extremely grim business but facts are facts.

HorseSoldier
July 25, 2011, 04:00 PM
Police use hollow points because they have no "front" or "rear" and are doing their job in a crowd and cannot have penetration of the target.

Police use hollow point pistol ammunition because pistols are notoriously poor manstoppers and hollow points provide enhanced lethality (or, to be more politically correct, "stop fights faster"). Any concerns about over penetration are purely secondary to that issue.

Mk VII
July 25, 2011, 04:04 PM
The true Dum-Dum is the .303 Mk.II*, a round-nosed soft point made around 1896-7, at Dum-Dum, apart from one batch made at the Woolwich Arsenal. By modern standards the amount of lead exposed is quite small. No special h/s was used.

http://www.fototime.com/C8E620EE4ABB456/standard.jpg
Mk.II*

The Mk.III, Mk.IV and Mk.V are round-nosed hollow-points; many people at the time would probably have referred to this as 'dum-dum' as well, (incorrectly). Technical problems with these as well as the new Hague Declaration of 1899 caused their withdrawal.

http://www.fototime.com/D926B8F6595C726/standard.jpg
Mk.III

Vonderek
July 25, 2011, 04:15 PM
Not to be confused with a Dum-Dum Reporter.

forgetitohio
July 25, 2011, 04:17 PM
HoosierQ... everything you posted plus it takes 3 people out of the fight to care for a wounded man. (if I remember right)
Dead...0

The central problem of our age is how to act decisively in the absence of certainty. - Bertrand Russell

Panzercat
July 25, 2011, 04:30 PM
Generally prone to fragmentation if I recall a similar thread; as opposed to a hollow point which is designed to retain its full mass through expansion.

yeah, the news really sensationalize this one. Once I heard the term "exploding bullets" being thrown around, you all but knew where it would lead.

CapnMac
July 25, 2011, 04:39 PM
Really, it takes five, unless the carry distance is very short.
Stokes litter is also much easier with four, especially through hatches and scuttles.

Kurt S.
July 25, 2011, 04:57 PM
I can no longer find the news article, but it sounded to me like he was using Glasers or Exxtreme Shock or some other hyper-frangible. The article said that surgeons were havng a rough time because the wounds were like 100's of pinpricks.

Tape
July 25, 2011, 05:26 PM
Lieutenant-Colonel Neville Sneyd Bertie-Clay invented the dum dum soft pointed bullet in 1896 At the Indian Army "Dum Dum" arsenal located in the town of Dum Dum, The Truth about Dum Dums (http://www.thegunzone.com/dum-dum.html)
At the Indian Army arsenal located in the town of Dum Dum, at that time, Captain Bertie Clay developed a "soft-point" jacketed .303 projectile. This was created by removing 1mm of the copper-alloy jacket from the nose of the standard Mark II .303 projectile, exposing the soft lead underneath. The new soft-point was used to good effect during the Tirah campaign of 1897-98, and the name "Dum Dum" became slang for any expanding jacketed projectile that followed.
However, the British Army did not adopt the Indian soft-point. In Britain, Woolwich Arsenal had been independently working on its own expanding jacketed projectile design: a "hollow-point." The latter not only removed part of the jacket but also included an open cavity in the exposed lead nose of the projectile. The British Army adopted the Mark III hollow-point in 1897, but the improved Mark IV hollow-point soon replaced the earlier cartridge later the same year.

Sebastian the Ibis
July 25, 2011, 05:43 PM
I saw somewhere that he used a Mini-14. That means 5.56/.223 which tends to yaw and disintegrate on contact. A 5.56 spitzer (meaning pointy) is heavy at the back and light at the front so it tumbles when it hits something, this combined with its speed causes it to break apart. Dum dum bullets have the pointy end cut off to increase expansion, at the expense of yaw and accuracy. I highly doubt that anyone would cut the ends off of 5.56, but I sure hope this "dum dum" did or else the death count probably would have been higher.

I agree with Vonderek I think we have a "dum dum" reporter.

SharpsDressedMan
July 25, 2011, 06:39 PM
The ammunition in the Norway shooting got labeled "dum-dum", but the description makes me wonder if it was something like Glaser rounds. They WILL, upon impact, distribute lead pellets in all directions in the body cavity, as found by an autopsy I had access to in the late 70's. An attacking dog was shot by one of our officers (we were issued Glaser rounds at that time), and damage was done to almost all organs in the chest and abdomen. It has never been clear to me why they get such low rating for lethality, unless it is based soley on their ability to penetrate well.

Jim Watson
July 25, 2011, 08:11 PM
I see two possibilities, not withstanding a translation by an anti-gun AP reporter using the most frightening term she could think of.

He might have had true frangible close range training bullets.

He might have had European hunting loads; they do not attach the importance to "retained weight" that Americans do and a bullet shedding bits of jacket and lead just adds "stopping power" by their standards.

Agree with tape and Mk VII. A REAL dum-dum has been obsolete for over a hundred years. There are better ways to cause severe wounds than cutting away the nose of a FMJ.

303tom
July 25, 2011, 10:33 PM
dum-dum: A bullet designed to expand on impact, increasing in diameter to limit penetration and/or produce a larger diameter wound. The two typical designs are the hollow point bullet and the soft point bullet.

awgrizzly
July 25, 2011, 11:10 PM
The popular application of the term Dum Dum applies to bullets that someone has cut a cross in the soft tip to cause expansion. Although over time the various hollow point designs perform this role much more efficiently, those who know little about guns still perceive a Dum Dum bullet as some evil malicious thing that will destroy life as we know it and impregnate their virgin daughters. It's thus used a lot by anti-gun activists to assault gun owners and turn us into demons. So I guess now days the term dum dum best describes those who use the term. >=o|

ninja-jitsu
July 25, 2011, 11:16 PM
he most certainly used some kind of frangible ammo

orionengnr
July 25, 2011, 11:19 PM
More misinformaton packed into about 15 posts than I have ever seen on any THR thread. A few good posts, and a bunch of old wives tales and horse manure.

Google search is your friend, and that's all I'm going to say on the matter.

...plus it takes 3 people out of the fight to care for a wounded man. One of the most oft-repeated BS statements ever. :rolleyes:

lemaymiami
July 26, 2011, 08:01 AM
On another thread (that was closed down...) I said that I'll be very interested in what weapons were involved (and ammo, of course). It will be very interesting to get a clear picture of private weapons ownership in Norway, as well as what weapons are available to purchase legally there. I have zero confidence in most news reports about such an incident. As a personal matter, nothing I was ever involved in as a cop was ever accurately reported by the 'media'. I don't mean not getting the names right, you wondererd if they were even talking about the same incident....

I read somewhere that Samuel Clemons is supposed to have said that if you don't read a newspaper you're uninformed.... and that if you do read a paper you're mis-informed.

Jeff F
July 26, 2011, 09:31 AM
I read that article about the Norway shooter that started off saying he used dum dum bullets. Thats what caught my attention, its been a long time since I have heard that term. The article went on to say they were the kind of bullets normally used by varmint hunters. So if he used a Mini 14 that would Leeds me to believe he was shooting light, less then 55gr ammo with bullets like varmint grenades.

HoosierQ
July 26, 2011, 09:47 AM
Police use hollow point pistol ammunition because pistols are notoriously poor manstoppers and hollow points provide enhanced lethality (or, to be more politically correct, "stop fights faster"). Any concerns about over penetration are purely secondary to that issue.
Yes indeed that is true and I certainly acknowledge that fact too. Also part of the no "front" no "rear" scenario. When a wounded soldier runs back for aid (or is carried) he is out of action...again, good for your mission most likely. A wounded violent felon is "retreating" deaper into society and will likely kill the LEO, another LEO, or another citizen on his way before seeking what medical aid may be available to him. A wounded soldier, regardless of what side he's on, is an unfortunate fellow who's done his job, given a lot to his country, and should be wished Godspeed back home by either side in the fight...assuming he's not fixing to shoot back...I am not talking terrorists here mind you...only soldiers. A wounded felon (terrorist) is just a dangerous fugitive on the loose who happens to be bleeding.

vaupet
July 26, 2011, 09:59 AM
The use of any kind of frangible bullets is in europe strictly forbidden except for hunting purposes.
As hunting is forbidden with handgun, the use of frangible bullets is forbidden in handguns.

Any kind of frangible ammo is known to uneducated journalists (a very large majority) as dum dum (sort of like any black rifle is known as "klasjnikof") It is considered by these same journalist as somekind of misterious ray of death.

as to the rifle used: some sources say he used the swedisch ag3, a HK g3 derivative but on his website he is posing with what looks like a mini 14.

so an easy guess is that he used a semi auto mini 14 in 223 rem with softpoint hunting ammo, largely availible in a hunters country

answerguy
July 27, 2011, 05:48 PM
I guess the radio reporter thought it sounded scarier and/or more evil than hollow-point.
Doesn't scary scary, it sounds yummy to me. :)

http://villagevines.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/05239l1492.jpg

JTHunter
July 27, 2011, 11:50 PM
casey44mag - you can also alter a hollowpoint bullet to make it fragment even faster by using a sharp knife to put 2-3 slits across the HP opening. This leaves an "X" shape or "pizza pie" cuts across the top. A bullet altered in this manner has a high probability of disintegrating when it enters flesh. If it does, chances are it won't come out the other side. That's a good thing, right? ;)

philpost
July 28, 2011, 09:59 PM
I first was exposed to dum dum's as a kid when I read an early Punisher comic in the '70's, and in one panel he was carving crosses into the tips of his ammo.

casey44mag
July 29, 2011, 11:40 AM
I used to cut X's in the tops of my 22 ammo when i was a kid, I didnt really notice any significant advantage when shooting squirells and such. CCI makes a 22 that comes apart its not that spectacular either(In my eyes).
The biggest reason i quit cutting my 22's is i slipped with the knife and bout cut the tip of my thumb off:what::uhoh: that wasnt a proud moment. I tell ya what works great is Barnes Varmint Grenades! I havent lost a yote yet and have minimal pelt damage to boot, but woodchucks fugetaboutit they just vaporize:D now if Barnes would make a varmint grenade for a 44 magnum.............................

Stevie-Ray
July 30, 2011, 08:56 PM
My favorite Dum Dums are the watermelon ones.;)

JTHunter
July 31, 2011, 12:12 AM
Casey - I know what you mean. I gat careless with a second-hand table saw and lost my left thumb from the middle joint 4 years ago. :what:
Good thing I'm right-handed, isn't it? :evil:

gym
July 31, 2011, 01:36 PM
I'ts the opposite of a smart bomb. Ever remember seeing an old movie where there is always a guy in the corner before the bank heist scene, cutting an x in each one. You will remember next time you see an old movie. Used obviouslly on lead

animator
July 31, 2011, 10:55 PM
Don't forget they were in Lethal Weapon...


Riggs: "I think you should rest up, Leo. A dum-dum wound can be very serious."
Paul Hipp (I) as Doctor: "What's a dum-dum?"
Riggs: "You don't know? A guy on the force got his thumb shot off by a dum-dum. From the shock, he was dead two days later."
Leo Getz: "Dead two days later? He died from dum-dums?"

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