USPSA scoring


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ny32182
July 26, 2011, 10:29 AM
As an IDPA shooter, I've tried a couple local USPSA matches in the last 3 months or so, including this past weekend.

I've had fun so far. It is obvious there are some significantly different aspects to the strategy and stage design.

One thing that dumbfounded me until today was the scoring. I looked up a thread on Enos, and now I understand the math they are doing once all the numbers are on the score sheet. I still don't get the difference between minor and major (I believe minor scores less points per hit?)

One thing that came as a surprise in the scores were penalties; I somehow managed to get 10 points of penalties on several stages, but was only informed of one of them at the time, for shooting .05 sec over the time limit on a standards stage. The others, I have no idea where they came from.

Even understanding the math, it is hard to get a feel for whether the scoring model favors speed over accuracy. It could be experience, but I feel the IDPA scoring model is very easy to understand, and see that it favors accuracy. Could you turn that -1 into a -0 with less than an extra half second? Probably. IDPA is a bullseye match.

I've been told that speed wins in USPSA, but if this is true, it is harder to see when your raw number is essentially a "hit factor". For people who shoot both, would you agree that speed is more highly favored over accuracy in the scoring model for USPSA, vs. IDPA?

Conflicting information to the "speed wins" theory is that all the winners at the local level here, looking back through the last year of results, are invariably major shooters. In the top 10-15% of the total results, there is hardly a minor anywhere in sight. Is this a product of who is showing up to local matches here, or does this trend carry on a national level? If it does, it would seem that the hits/points are pretty important too, and to win a division where major is allowed, you need a major gun.

Thoughts from those who shoot both?

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Hoser
July 26, 2011, 10:42 AM
I shoot both.

I think that both put emphasis on accuracy and speed. IDPA penalties are a little stiffer for anything other than a zero. But when you get higher up the USPSA food chain to M or GM, guys will shoot a stage at the speed of heat and maybe drop 2-3 charlies. Very rarely a delta or a miss.

Either game, you cant give away points and expect to win.

As far as major/minor goes, Limited minor might help out once in a blue moon where having 23-24 rounds in your gun might save a flat footed reload and win the stage. In USPSA, Limited minor is not a good idea. In Production (SSP) everyone is minor regardless of caliber and bullet diameter. I have won a few matches shooting limited minor, but not often. When I decide to start shooting 40 again, I bet my average goes up 10-15%.

Hit factor is nothing but how many points per second. The person with the highest hit factor wins the stage. Simple as that.

ny32182
July 26, 2011, 10:56 AM
Thanks Hoser. I shot limited minor with my SSP gear, and just topped off the mags (don't have good magazine gear for 5-6 10rd mags on the belt for Production). Sounds like you'd want a dedicated .40 major gun if you plan to compete in Limited long term.

How does major/minor, and hits on target translate into points on the sheet?

Also, any guesses as to what I could have done to generate the penalties? Next time I will ask the SO to inform me of any penalties.

jfdavis58
July 26, 2011, 11:16 AM
Misses and hits on no-shoots are scored as -10 penalties.

If there should be 4 holes and you have three that's a "hit score-10"; say 3 A's and miss==>(5*3)-10. If there shouldn't be any holes and there are, it's -10 per hole. Take care they don't ding you for a shot that goes through hard cover and into a no-shot; hard cover protects no-shoots too.

Foot faults should be noted somewhere on the sheet and would also generate a penalty but designers are always encouraged to avoid such situations.

What wins in USPSA is smooth, then accuracy and speed. You can win a match with a minor factor gun-all A's and touch of adrenaline (got mine when the former club president/secretary/know-it-all tried to tongue-lash me during a pre-match walk-through. Her husband was overheard at the end of the match "don't piss him off again unless you want to go home early!")

MrBorland
July 26, 2011, 11:21 AM
I worked out the major/minor difference with some hypothetical classifier results, as well as my own (shooting revolver). In short, the difference between major & minor is about a grade. IOW, if you classified as a "B" shooter, shooting minor, you'd likely classify as an "A" shooter had you shot major, all else being equal. If you're an exceptionally good shooter who manages to garner upwards of 98% of the points available (while still shooting quickly), major/minor probably won't have as much an effect on your classification. Competition at that level is tough, though, so it'd still likely affect your match placing.

I think the speed vs accuracy has a lot to do with capacity. As a revolver shooter, every shot counts, so shooting too fast can really hurt, due to extra time (from extra reloads) and/or lost points (misses and penalties).

In contrast, some divisions, e.g. Limited & Open, aren't nearly as capacity-limited, so they can use the extra capacity (and crisp SA trigger) to really run that gun and take extra shots if needed.

ny32182
July 26, 2011, 11:35 AM
So I saw on the score sheet that the first thing done was to total up all the A's, all the B's, C's, and D's. I assume that those columns are somehow directly related to the number of points scored on the stage?

Hk Dan
July 26, 2011, 02:00 PM
Right. Scoring Minor an A is worth 5, a B or C is worth 3, and a D is worth 1. In Major it's 5-4-2.

On your standards stage, they should not have given you a penalty unless you were .3 or more over.

USPSA DEFINATELY favors speed. If I shoot 10 alphas in 5 seconds, my hit factor is 10.0. If I shoot 6 Alphas, 3 Charlies, and a Delta (major) in 3 seconds my hit factor is 14.33--40% "better". I have a great number of issues with USPSA, but I'm a defensive handgunner first. Tell me one story about a guy charging into a situation with 15 armed terrorists armed with a handgun that has a happy ending, yet that's how the stages go in USPSA. (Our hero doesn't get to watch 15 people shoot it first, put a stop watch on various parts of the course, nor can he ask for a re-shoot if he gets killed)

LOL
Dan

ny32182
July 26, 2011, 02:36 PM
And, that (mostly) completes the picture, thanks Dan.

My shot in the standards stage was at 7.35, .35 past the buzzer, or .05 over the limit... sorry about the confusion there.

I did have a couple mikes :rolleyes: which is fortunately pretty rare for me these days but if I understand jfdavis' post above, not only do you get zero positive points for a mike, but you get 10 points subtracted as well (for a net effect of -15 vs an A zone hit?). That could be the source of the mystery penalties. I guess this is sort of the equivalent to the FTN penalty in IDPA? Also it looks like it puts a greater percentage penalty on the minor shooter than the major shooter.

In your example, I might like to tweak some numbers. 3 vs. 5 seconds is huge... so you have a 66% difference in time there, but a 40% difference in score.

For round numbers, say you shot a stage in 10 seconds and got 10 A's, that is HF = 5 for both major and minor.

Now say you shoot it in 9 seconds but drop 4 Cs; that is a HF = 5.11 for major or 4.66 for minor, correct?

10 seconds with 4 C's, HF = 4.6 for major, 4.2 for minor.

9 seconds with 10 A's, HF = 5.55 for major or minor.

So when we reduce only the time by 10%, score goes up by 11% for all A's (not practical for most I assume); but when we drop only accuracy a little, score drops by roughly 8% for major, 16% for minor. That looks like it might be the big difference between major and minor.

waktasz
July 26, 2011, 07:14 PM
Yes, that's pretty much the point :). Minor should be easier to shoot fast, so you get less points for "bad" hits.

USPSA definitely does favor speed, as has been said, BUT, the penalty for a miss is worse than in IDPA.

Ankeny
July 26, 2011, 07:57 PM
I have been doing USPSA statistics for 12 years so I have a pretty good foundation in what the numbers need to look like to win. It's simple, go for all A's as fast as possible. As Hoser pointed out, at the upper levels of competition it takes speed and accuracy. FWIW, minor scoring sucks.

1SOW
July 27, 2011, 12:04 AM
USPSA is a "SPORT" and has very little to do with self-protection. It does have a lot to do with fun, adrenaline rush and making new friends.

You will get to know you and your pistol(s') shooting capabilities. You'll learn trigger and sight use. You won't learn "how" to protect

yourself in a bad situation.

Minor-125PF: soft loads, easier to shoot faster in some classes, less damage done to target
Major-165PF: faster/bigger loads, more damage to target

Sort of like, it's easier to shoot a 22lr than a 30.06

Ankeny
July 27, 2011, 12:08 AM
OMG, this is the competition forum. Save it for strategy and tactics.

1858
July 27, 2011, 01:42 AM
USPSA is a "SPORT" and has very little to do with self-protection.

I don't agree. Every self defense technique works on developing muscle memory through iteration, and shooting USPSA type matches is no different. The draw, presentation, sight picture, trigger control, recoil control, magazine changes, shooting while moving. and transitioning between targets under stress are perishable skills that you might need in order to protect yourself or your family. I think USPSA type matches have a lot to do with self-protection for anyone who plans on using a handgun.

Zak Smith
July 27, 2011, 02:18 AM
Please heed Ankeny's sage advice, lest this end poorly for some.

David E
July 27, 2011, 03:13 AM
USPSA tests your skills, not your tactics.

And I thought .30 was ok, .31 was not.....

ny32182
July 27, 2011, 08:38 AM
I have been doing USPSA statistics for 12 years so I have a pretty good foundation in what the numbers need to look like to win. It's simple, go for all A's as fast as possible. As Hoser pointed out, at the upper levels of competition it takes speed and accuracy. FWIW, minor scoring sucks.

So it is your long term experience that minor is not as competitive as major in Limited/Open?

waktasz
July 27, 2011, 09:50 AM
No one has ever won at the highest level shooting minor.

There is a GM on Brian's Forum (Cha-Lee) that is making the attempt this year with an M&P 40 Pro though, shooting minor. I don't know how it will turn out but his project is interesting and his goals are set high.

mgmorden
July 28, 2011, 10:00 AM
So it is your long term experience that minor is not as competitive as major in Limited/Open?

That's pretty much true. Realistically, very few people shoot ALL A's, and for any hit other than an A Minor means fewer points. Most people would prefer softer recoil from minor PF loads, but realistically the extra recoil from major PF is rarely enough of a hindrance to offset the point advantage.

All this is essentially why I like Production division. Since everybody is shooting minor, you don't need to worry about it PF (except making minor). Allowed modifications are also minimal, so realistically there's also only so much money someone can dump into a gun before there's nothing left to do. Guns are cheaper, and the ammo is cheaper.

I may look at getting dedicated guns to compete in Limited or Open later on, but for now I simply can't afford to be competitive in those divisions.

ny32182
July 28, 2011, 03:21 PM
Could anyone recommend a good magazine rig for Production with G17 mags?

mgmorden
July 28, 2011, 03:50 PM
Could anyone recommend a good magazine rig for Production with G17 mags?

For production you can't get too fancy. Everything must be at belt level and must sit behind the hip. With that in mind, IMHO any mag pouches that hold your mags securely will work fine. I prefer belt-loop setups over paddle-style myself. Fobus works fine in that regard. Get 2 dual-pouches and you're good for one in the gun and 4 on the belt, which seems to be the most common setup.

A lot of people also carry a "Barney" mag. That's a mag that you keep in your pocket that you just keep 1 round in. After the load and make ready command, you load the chamber from the Barney, then remove it and insert a full mag of 10. It's basically a way to get one more shot off before requiring a reload. Only really makes a difference if it can save you a reload or allow you to reload at a more opportune time though.

waktasz
July 28, 2011, 03:59 PM
I'd go with individual pouches, not doubles. The CR Speed pouches with their double belt is very popular. If you want to use a regular belt (like for IDPA), I use the Ready Tactical pouches because they are narrow don't take up much room on the belt.

For barneying up, I just load 11 in my first mag. Less to fiddle with.

Lonerider357
July 29, 2011, 05:34 AM
I tried IDPA twice, was treated like a "RedHeaded Stepchild! I really didn't like the sport or the people. I have been shooting Cowboy action for 11 years and it's much better. Better people and fun. I like the "DING" of the metal targets.

lmccrock
July 29, 2011, 07:10 AM
A lot of people also carry a "Barney" mag. That's a mag that you keep in your pocket that you just keep 1 round in. After the load and make ready command, you load the chamber from the Barney, then remove it and insert a full mag of 10.
In USPSA, it is legal to walk to the line in Production or Limited 10 with 11 rounds in one mag and LAMR with that mag. No problem as long as you do not load a mag with more than 10 after the beep.

If you are shooting all Alphas, speed up. More Charlies than Alphas, slow down. Easy. ;) The occasional miss happens. If it happens much, slow down more or check your zeroes because Mikes are way worse than C or even D.

ny32182
August 29, 2011, 09:59 AM
I shot again Saturday (still limited minor with my SSP rig topped off) and although I was shooting well, it is amazing the difference that a basic review of the scoring and rules can make. I would say that (obviously) a lot of the technical skills cross over between IDPA and USPSA. I'd say USPSA emphasizes shooting on the move considerably more than IDPA. That said I don't think it is possible to overstate how important it is to know the rules and scoring of the sport you are shooting if you want to do well. The research I have done since last month has instantly paid off. And I am sure there are plenty of subtleties about USPSA I am still yet to discover.

Long term I will need to either get a new gun, or shoot in Production, though I am for some reason tempted to keep doing what I am doing now for a little while. Not sure why.

Hk Dan
August 29, 2011, 05:53 PM
And don't get to be a slave to it. USPSA will get you killed in a fight. There was a lot of talk about "muscle memory" earlier (which is silly--muscles don't have brains so they can't remember anything). What IS true is that you fall back on what you have practiced. If all action depends on the beep, you'd better bring a shot timer with ya for when you get mugged. The things that people do to win a match will get you killed in combat--don't get sucked in that far. Keep it real.

waktasz
August 29, 2011, 05:54 PM
oh please

That's like saying boxing will get you killed in a bar brawl because there's no bell to start the round.

1858
August 29, 2011, 07:33 PM
There was a lot of talk about "muscle memory" earlier (which is silly--muscles don't have brains so they can't remember anything).

You need to do some reading. Muscle memory isn't some vague concept. It's a well proven physiological phenomenon and the reason that so many can bang out utter drivel on their keyboards without looking at the keys.

Here's a link to an explanation of that silly thing called muscle memory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory

Muscle memory has been used synonymously with motor learning, which is a form of procedural memory that involves consolidating a specific motor task into memory through repetition. When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task, eventually allowing it to be performed without conscious effort. This process decreases the need for attention and creates maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems. Examples of muscle memory are found in many everyday activities that become automatic and improve with practice, such as riding a bicycle, typing on a keyboard, playing a melody or phrase on a musical instrument, playing video games,[1] or performing different algorithms for a puzzle cube.

Jon_Snow
August 29, 2011, 07:40 PM
Some people shoot USPSA to get better at USPSA, others do it to get better at defensive shooting. It's your choice which you want to be, there is no wrong answer. I think that it's unlikely you'll be carrying an open class race gun in a speed holster out on the street, so that won't help the latter much, but the basic principles of shooting under pressure and such are good for everyone.

1858
August 29, 2011, 07:50 PM
Some people shoot USPSA to get better at USPSA, others do it to get better at defensive shooting.

Exactly. I don't do it to be the overall match winner because that's never going to happen going up against open shooters. They're playing a game as far as I'm concerned. I shoot single stack major to get better at defensive shooting, to gain muscle memory, to practice with the type of load I'd use for defense, and to have fun. If I win my division it's fun, but if I beat production or limited shooters shooting minor then it makes it even more fun. If I beat production or limited shooters who think that 1911s are antiquated and unreliable pieces of junk I LOVE that. Last match I placed 2nd in my division (match before that I placed 1st) behind a guy shooting single stack minor (9mm Luger), 19th overall and beat 23 limited and production shooters. We typically have 50 to 60 sixty shooters at our matches and I'd rather have a great run over five or six stages and finish last than have a crappy day and win.

Hk Dan
August 30, 2011, 08:45 AM
"oh please
That's like saying boxing will get you killed in a bar brawl because there's no bell to start the round. "

Not really. You're using a bad anaolgy because boxing is mock combat with a live human being. It's more like Force on Force training in our world. It would be more appropriate to say "Training for a bar fight by jumping rope will get you beat stupid"

Keep in mind that USPSA has, intentionally, no relationship to 'real world' scenarios. The only thing it offers me is a chance to shoot accurately and fast, BUT in the real world I don't get to watch 15 people shoot it first, contemplate it down to the least significant detail like which foot I'll step out of my 'shooting box' with so I land on the correct foot at the next one, put a stop watch on various props to determine whether or not I can shoot something else while they are activating, etc. Pressure? Thre is pressure in USPSA when you're new. There is pressure before you learn todeal with it.

I'm a Master class shooter and still a USPSA member. I've been through 2 defensive encounters, after which I decided to study why things happened the way they did (I wasn't happy with my 'performance' even though I won both fights). I quit shooting matches after that (much to the relief of the other shooters, who were tired of losing). I haven't shot USPSA now in over a year, I have been studying and practicing defensive shooting, watching dash cam vids, etc.

The one thing Ican tell you is that you won't use your highly stylized USPSA draw and stance in you ever need your gun inthe real world. You'll likely hunker down and present the gun with your right hand only while moving rapidly for cover--that is, unless you're a slave to USPSA. In that case you'll die, probably while asking for a reshoot or picking up brass.

Don't think that you're doing your defensive skills any good at all by shooting USPSA. You are hurting them.

ny32182
August 30, 2011, 08:56 AM
I posted in the competition forum for a reason, folks... I don't care how anyone thinks USPSA does or doesn't line up with your favorite SHTF scenarios, I am interested in learning about how to win USPSA matches. Thanks.

bds
August 30, 2011, 10:46 AM
I am interested in learning about how to win USPSA matches.
Although I promote accuracy and smoothness over speed, ultimately, it is stage times that matches are won or lost.

This is what I did to improve my stage times:

- Volunteer to help with stage setup/take down/clean up. You'll learn how the the stages are set and why. When I volunteered with match setup and clean up or other match related "work days", I got tips on how to properly engage the targets and shave stage times from other seasoned shooters - one chat with the right shooter will help you save several seconds per stage with a particular setup. If you can, do a walk through of the stage and determine which path of engagement will save you the least amount of steps.

- Set up mock stage setup at home. Mount/hang targets (ask for old cardboard targets) and practice draw from start box to transition from target to target. Conduct dry fire exercise while watching the front sight (when the hammer/striker is released, your front sight should not jerk/move). If you can, time the mag changes while you are on the move to save 1-2 seconds per mag change. I used 1-2 extra mags and did mag changes when leaving a set of targets and not when my mag was empty and slide locked.

- "Smooth is fast" - Work on smoothly flowing through the stage targets instead of rushing to get to the next target as fast as you can. I often visualize the entire stage walk through as I waited to shoot a stage - and kept repeating until it was my turn to shoot. Watch other shooters and identify where you can improve time based on mistakes they make. Anticipate what you will do next in your mind and carry that out as you arrive at your next set of targets.

- Do not rush! When I step into the start box, I clear everything from my mind. The other shooters and range distractions disappear and I am left with nothing but silence and the stage targets. Ultimately, you are not competing with anyone else, but your last/best stage times. Only way you are going to get better stage scores/times is if you improve on YOUR technique as you cannot dictate what other shooters do. Shoot at your speed that maintains acceptable accuracy (all Alphas) without having to make any unforced errors which add to stage times.

- Ask other shooters to watch you shoot and have them critique your stage/shooting techniques. They'll often point out the obvious mistakes you made and offer pointers how to correct them from 3rd person perspective. They may offer other tips that will help you improve target engagement and stage times.

- Make videos of your matches. Like a football coach/team reviewing their past game to identify the mistakes they made, take a camcorder and have someone record you shooting. Seeing yourself shoot will reveal all the obvious and detailed mistakes you made and areas you can improve from stance, posture, grip, trigger control, engagement, movement, transition, mag changes, etc.

- Have fun. It may sound obvious but I found the more fun I have at the match and less time spend on getting frustrated over bad stage score/times, I do better on the next stage. If you had a bad stage shoot, make fun at why. Laughing about it will help you relax for the next stage. Like fishing, my motto is, "Worst day at match is better than best day at work!"

- Get plenty of rest and have a good breakfast. Yup. If you are tired and hungry, your accuracy and stage times will not improve. Get all of your match gear ready and go to bed early night before and get up early enough to have a good breakfast. Take plenty of hydration with you (water preferred - no high caffeine/energy drinks) to the range and "sip" through the stages to prevent going thirsty, especially on hot days. If there's no shade, wear a big shading hat to minimize heat injury.

- Network. I find most competent shooters also great teachers of THEIR favored techniques. Talk to the best shooters at the match. Often, they will take on a new pupil and pass on their secrets. We have some "older" shooters who come occasionally and will absolutely dust the younger shooters in terms of accuracy and speed. Offer them a cold drink and you may learn to shave 5-10+ seconds on a stage to win.

ny32182
August 30, 2011, 11:16 AM
Thanks bds. Very good advice there, and many things I continue to work on that I believe you can never get enough of no matter how good you are. While I am new to USPSA, I am not new to action pistol competition; I shoot SSP in IDPA at the MA level, and am looking to learn about USPSA. The only guy who beat me over the weekend in a field of 32 was a Production GM shooter (unfortunately was not in my squad); however, just like IDPA I'm sure that is mostly a function of who is showing up in a small field locally and not a function of my great USPSA skills my 3rd time out. However, I appreciate your writeup. Do you shoot both sports? If so, what do you believe is emphasized skill-wise in USPSA more so than IDPA? The first thing that jumps out at me is shooting on the move. I did more shooting on the move in three stages Saturday than I've done in probably 3 months of IDPA club and sanctioned matches. What actions in USPSA are to be avoided at all cost (a function of the scoring model). An equivalent in IDPA would be an HNT or FTN; no matter what you do, you can't come close to running a decent stage if you do action XYZ.

ny32182
August 30, 2011, 11:20 AM
Also I was carefully reviewing the score sheet; I believe it is easier to see in context with other scores how speed is weighted more heavily important in USPSA than IDPA. If the guy above me beat my stage time by 1.5 seconds, how many more points would I have had to score to catch up? A lot. I am convinced at this point that when in doubt, do whatever is fastest.

Zak Smith
August 30, 2011, 12:10 PM
USPSA will not get you killed. Faulty mindset and/or random chance may get you killed.

Competition is one of the tools in the training toolbox-- it is not training in and of itself.

I am surprised and disappointed that after this has been hashed out over and over again on the forums for the last 10 years, that the meme that competition will get you killed it still around.

Practical-style competition does several things very well, almost uniquely well, that are related to fighting: to evolve superior gun-handling, speed, and marksmanship skills. Part of what makes this possible is objective grading. If a person can rock hard, complex USPSA stages with perfect gun handling on a weekly or monthly basis, with stages that have shooting challenges much, much more complex than any likely defensive encounter, then the marksmanship, speed, and gun-handling parts of defense will all be second-nature, not additional complications and unknowns, in the encounter.

The other major thing that practical competition contributes to training and mindset is problem solving. Any problem solving activity exercises your brain and makes you better at problem solving. On the practical shooting course, you are deciding how you can achieve the best score possible within the rules of the game, given your abilities. The best way for you to score well - or achieve whatever your goals are - might not be the same way as everyone else. The "rules" are the stage description and the physical layout of the course.

In real life, the "rules" are different - much more liberal in some ways, much more strict in others - but in a defensive encounter you must still "solve the problem." The better your mental toolset has been tuned, the better potential outcome you have. The more practice your problem-solving organ has had, the better you can do. "Gaming" is often derided by the "tactical" crowd, but "gaming" is just the process of exploiting every advantage you can. Often times the stage designer has intended the stage to be shot one way or another - if you can find the "loophole" you can get an advantage. In other words, "gaming" is exactly what you want to do in real life: you want to exploit every advantage you can, using defensive tools.

Many warriers have commented that "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game." In another thread long ago, I wrote that one of the critical elements in my conception of mindset is a technique of problem solving that is quick, pragmatic, and absolutely not limited by preconceptions (ie thinking outside the box). It is not about a particular set of rules (eg, competition rules), it is about becoming better at finding good, quick solutions to problems given any rule set.

Shooting is shooting, and there is nothing that the average man can attend on a regular basis that comes close to the opportunity to learn advanced pistol shooting skills as USPSA matches. To make an analogy, it's like shooting freethrows all day to improve that part of your basketball game, or riding a motocross track to improve technique for cross-country enduro races.

If one can't tell the difference between a USPSA match and the real life defensive use of a firearm then he should probably re-evaluate the idea of carrying for defense. Anyone who has taken force on force training knows that situations do not unfold in a set manner, and often not as one would expect. The differences between how two different defensive scenarios unfold dwarf the difference between either of them and competition.

Justin
August 30, 2011, 01:10 PM
USPSA DEFINATELY favors speed. If I shoot 10 alphas in 5 seconds, my hit factor is 10.0. If I shoot 6 Alphas, 3 Charlies, and a Delta (major) in 3 seconds my hit factor is 14.33--40% "better". I have a great number of issues with USPSA, but I'm a defensive handgunner first. Tell me one story about a guy charging into a situation with 15 armed terrorists armed with a handgun that has a happy ending, yet that's how the stages go in USPSA. (Our hero doesn't get to watch 15 people shoot it first, put a stop watch on various parts of the course, nor can he ask for a re-shoot if he gets killed)

Not being an idiot, I'm capable of telling the difference between a situation with fifteen armed terrorists intent on destruction and violence vs. a situation with fifteen USPSA-legal targets that don't shoot back. As a result, in one of these situations, I would charge ahead and blaze away and in the other I would not.

1858
August 30, 2011, 03:33 PM
Many warriers have commented that "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game."

I would add that under stress, most of us are only capable of a limited amount of "thinking". As a result, most of us fall back to some average level of practice or training, with an emphasis on "fall back" since we don't "rise to the occasion". The vast majority of us under stress won't magically acquire a skill that we don't have. Luckily for most of us, fast twitch muscles don't need a conscious signal from the brain. They fire because those commands are hardwired through iteration. If you have to think about the mechanics of various actions in a fight for your life, your chances of surviving that encounter are extremely low. Any form of practice that moves required functional skills into the "automatic" column is a good thing because this frees up the brain for cognitive thought.

bds
August 30, 2011, 03:58 PM
I subscribe to the notion that we "fight like we train" and switched from a match 1911 platform to a stock Glock 22 on a dare from a range officer.

I use G22/G27 for HD/SD and have entertained the idea of shooting USPSA/IDPA with G27 as my proficiency has increased to nearly match that of G22.

If I do, I certainly anticipate that I would enjoy the experience as every shot I fire during match would be a direct practical practice for any real SD/HD situation I may face.

Jon_Snow
August 30, 2011, 04:57 PM
- Make videos of your matches.

I was amazed how many people are doing this. Almost half of the shooters at the last match I went to had someone fimling their runs. Several even had cameras mounted on their caps for a 'first person' view. I was talking to one of them and he told me the whole set-up cost him about $100, not bad if you're serious about improving.

ny32182
August 30, 2011, 05:11 PM
I love video, but "hat cams" don't really do much for me from a learning perspective, since you can't see the movement/reloads, other mechanics, etc.

mgmorden
September 2, 2011, 08:36 AM
I was amazed how many people are doing this. Almost half of the shooters at the last match I went to had someone fimling their runs. Several even had cameras mounted on their caps for a 'first person' view. I was talking to one of them and he told me the whole set-up cost him about $100, not bad if you're serious about improving.

They even have some glasses out now that have a camera built in. They have short record times, but recording each of a few stages at a match is virtually nothing time-wise.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003FOX14K/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_3?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B003FOPNRS&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=13433J2Y6QFKV31219E8

The pair above are the 3.0MP version at $110, but they list another for $60 - not sure the resolution on those.

waktasz
September 2, 2011, 01:07 PM
^^ I just bought a set of those. Got them on ebay for $90.

First match with them will be Area 8. I'll get the vids up on Monday.

Ankeny
September 2, 2011, 06:59 PM
I am surprised and disappointed that after this has been hashed out over and over again on the forums for the last 10 years, that the meme that competition will get you killed it still around. When one looks at all of the time, money, and research the military spent before moving heavily into 3-gun as part of their training regime, anyone who still believes IPSC will get you killed is really out of touch with recent trends.

I suppose Olympic class swimmers shouldn't be life guards in any shaped pool other than a rectangle. :banghead:

lmccrock
September 3, 2011, 01:46 PM
Let it go. This is the COMPETITION SHOOTING FORUM. There is another one on THR called "Strategies, Tactics and Training" if you want to talk about, well, strategies, tactics, or training.

Lee

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