[Nightcrawler]

How powerful is the .44-40 round? What kind of bullet weights and typical muzzle velocities did they get in the 1880s blackpowder loads?

What about the early and modern smokeless loads?

What performance do you get from a revolver? Rifle?

How'd it perform, in terms of terminal ballistics? Would it compare to, say, .45ACP?

Thanks.

[Mike Irwin]

Blackpowder .44-40 loads were about the same power as .45 Long Colt loads, or right around 400 ft. lbs of energy.

Because of the number of old guns available for both loads, they've been kept pretty sedate by the ammo manufacturers over the years.

[mete]

The original revolver load was 200gr @ 750-800 fps. It has been loaded hotter, you can find info in Kieth's "Sixguns".If you are thinking of buying a 44-40 it would be better to get a 44special cases will last a lot longer.

[BigG]

Ditto on what mete said. The 44/40 has paper thin brass and don't take to handloading kindly. Elmer Keith championed the 44 Special back years ago in comparison to the 38/40 and 44/40 which he wrung out thoroughly, btw, before he made up his mind. Read "Sixguns." It will be worth your while.

[Quantrill]

Nightcrawler,
I just recently purchased my first 44-40 caliber handgun. Although I have handloaded and cast bullets for over 40 years, this was my first experience with the 44-40. I asked and received many knowledgable replies. Then I started doing for myself. The bullet for the 44-40 is nominally .002 smaller than the bullets for .44spec. and .44mag. at .427 as opposed to .429. Rather than size down .44sp bullets, I purchased some hard cast at .427. They have remained the most accurate of every thing I put through it. Eventually, I DID size down 4 different lead bullet types. The only one to just about equal the .427 purchased bullets were wadcutters from a Lyman mould. I used a load of 5.0gr of 700X which would be a pretty mild load. I purchased 1 box of factory ammo (Winchester - $37) and 100 empty Remingtons. I have yet to crush a case. The brass does seem thin and I imagine that one could easily crush cases but with care, it does not seem to happen to me. I looked up Phil Sharpes loads for pistol and rifle (circa 1937) and found some pretty stout loads for the rifle just about equalling the .44mag in a rifle. I would be very hesitant to try this type of load but still Sharpe apparently used them successfully. The pistol loads were about what you see today in the modern reloading books because of the older pistols available. I found the 44-40 deserving of the extra care required (this was my first new caliber in 30 years). I would imagine that in it's hey-day, it was quite a potent handful. The 44-40 was the first successsful rifle-pistol combination that is so popular today. Good Luck with it. Quantrill

[Paul "Fitz" Jones]

Say Wm I have a 1982 Winchester saddle ring carbine, Hornaday dies, Lyman mold, some brass in my collection but never got around to getting a sizing die for my Star Luber so have not reloaded for it. I would appreciate your load data. John Paul

[Jim March]

Other than the shell thickness issue, there's another problem:

Too many gunmakers set up their 44-40 guns with the same barrel they use on their 44Spl/44Mags. Ruger was infamous for this, and finally discontinued the caliber. I have no idea how the various Italians and rifle companies handle the matter but I recommend some research first.

[Quantrill]

John Paul,
The only load I have used with the .44-40 is a 200gr flat nosed lead hard cast bullet over 5.0gr of 700X. I did not find this load in any table but made it up based on what I saw listed for other powders. I also loaded a 180gr Lyman wadcutter over the same 5.0gr of 700X. These are both mild loads I would consider as Cowboy action loads.The following loads are from Philip B. Sharpe's "Complete Guide to Handloading" copyrite 1937. While I know you have the experience and knowledge to properly evaluate these loads, I reiterate for newer and less experienced handloaders that I have never used any of these loads, that they must be worked up to, and that the powders mentioned may have changed burning rates over the years. I also note the fact that they are listed in the "Rifle Loads" section of the book and therefor would not be acceptable for handguns. There are other loads listed but the powders listed have not been made for many years and it is doubtful that anyone has any of them.


140gr HP - 21gr 2400 - 1600fps in 24"barrel -

140gr HP - 30gr 2400 - 2425fps " - 13,800 psi

140gr HP - 33gr 2400 - 2730fps " - 20,000psi

140gr HP - 12gr Unique - 1775fps " -10,300psi

140gr HP - 14.4gr Unique - 2035fps " - 16,000psi

200gr SP - 20gr 2400 - 1385fps " - 9,500psi

200gr SP - 23.5gr 2400 - 1700fps " - 14,000psi

200gr SP - 25.4gr 2400 - 1870fps " - 20,000psi

200gr SP - 27.5gr 2400 - 2,100fps " - 33,000psi

200gr SP - 9.0gr Unique - 1285fps " - 9600psi

200gr SP - 11.3gr Unique - 1520fps " - 16,000psi

200gr SP - 29gr 4227 - 1890fps "

200gr Lead - 22gr 2400 - 1530fps "

200gr Lead - 24gr 2400 - 1685fps " - 13,200psi

200gr Lead - 26.8gr 2400 - 1910fps " - 20,000psi

200gr Lead - 9gr Unique - 1305fps " - 10,200psi

200gr Lead - 11.3gr Unique - 1530fps " _ 16,000psi


Quantrill

[Jim March]

Folks, in 1937 their ability to *accurately* measure chamber pressure was suspect at best, and the powder formulas have changed a LOT.

Work up VERY carefully from data that old, plus...no offense to Quantrill but he may have induced typos just on his own, by accident.

I would strongly recommend, at a minimum, doing a sanity check on that data against a modern reloading manual.

[Quantrill]

The above listed loads are correct in as much as that is what was in the book. I knew that they were high and that is why I listed all the cautions that I did. They are listed as a reply to John Paul who asked for them. Quantrill

[Paul "Fitz" Jones]

Everyone, we are discussing loads for a Winchester 1892 44-40 RIFLE here and I am an experienced reloader having loaded millions of rounds. I have a collection of 1892's three of which I converted to .357 Magnum for myself and sons for easy carrying and plinking when hiking on our family ranch. When we and our dog have met a bear he went his way and we went ours. When we saw coyotes we nailed them.

John Paul

[NC Shooter]

Here is a good article regarding the 44-40.

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0BQY/11_49/109351856/p1/article.jhtml

FWIW, My grandfather got a 1892 Winchester chambered in 44-40 back in the 1920's from some guy that owed him $10. This gun was passed to my father, then to me. It is in excellent condition with original blueing and finish on the stock. Research shows this gun was made in 1892.

Today I shot this gun for the first time after checking with my local gunsmith. What a smooth shooter. I was amazed at how nicely it handled and the accuracy.

Now I am going to have to work up some reloads and really give this gun some exercise...

[Josey]

I like my Ruger Vaqueros in 44-40. They miked to 427. The sales of 357s and 45s were HIGHER and that is why Ruger dropped the 44-40. Ruger still makes special run 38-40/40 S&W revolvers. I suspect Davidsons will have Ruger make special run 44-40s too. I would buy Rugers in a dual cylinder 429 set up for 44-40/44 Magnum/44 Special/44 Russian.

[redneck2]

if you look at Quantrill's loads, a 200 grain is doing 1,305 fps

In my 10mm, a 180 doing 1,300 is considered a real stomper.

FWIW...in our modern age, everything has to be bigger, faster, and badder. Just read an article by Brian Pierce. Shot an elk at 80 yards with a .44 Special, LSWC bullet. In one side and out the other. Elk went 18 yards and down.

[Lone Star]

Last year, I was answering a question on another forum as to which guns I'd take had I been on the Challenger Expedition to South America in 1920, as featured on a TV series, "Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's The Lost World". It's in local re-runs now, and on TNT at 6:00AM, weekdays. The guns seen are interesting...(This isn't to be confused with several movies also based on Doyle's book.)

Anyway, I wanted a large-frame S&W, and wanted more power than factory-loaded .44 Special would give. And, I think S&W's cylinder is too small for me to feel really comfortable with warm .45 Colt loads, although in those days, Smith would occasionally chamber their guns in .45 Colt on order.

I dug out my copies of Elmer Keith's and Mike Venturino's books, and soon discovered that black powder .44/40 REVOLVER loads (there were separate factory loads marked for Winchester M92 and Marlin RIFLES only) gave almost 1,000 feet per second from a 7.5-inch Colt SAA revolver. Wow! Early smokeless loads (pre WW II and perhaps into the 1950's) were also hotter than today's, because the guns weren't then subjected to lawsuits and were considered "using" guns, not as antiques.

I gained new respect for the .44/40...

Lone Star

[Hal]

200gr Lead - 26.8gr 2400 - 1910fps " - 20,000psi
200gr SP - 27.5gr 2400 - 2,100fps " - 33,000psi

{{{{gulp}}}}

That's one (two) serious pile(s) of 2400 there pardner.

I know it's apples to watermelons but Alliant lists an even 26 gr of 2400 giving 55.6K psi in the .30/06 under a 190 gr bullet.

Side bar -
Challenger Expedition to South America in 1920, as featured on a TV series, "Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's The Lost World". Dude, my wife is "gunning" for you :D Seems she's less than pleased with the "Wallpaper" on my PC - yes - THAT picture of Rachel and Jennifer ;) Thought you'd like to know I blamed it on you :D

[Marshall]

Shelf Ammo

As for the rifle part and, off the shelf loads, standard .44-40 Win. 200gr has a muzzle velocity of 1190 fps and the muzzle energy comes out to 629 ft. lbs.

[Pappy John]

Dude, my wife is "gunning" for you Seems she's less than pleased with the "Wallpaper" on my PC - yes - THAT picture of Rachel and Jennifer Thought you'd like to know I blamed it on you
I think we all need a link.:D

[Lone Star]

Hal and Pappy-

Is the picture of Jen O'Dell and Rachel Blakely the one that originally ran in, "FHM". where Rachel is kneeling in the little brown bikini with Jen lying beside her in the silver swimsuit?

Wives probably don't even appreciate the basic PR pic of Jennifer kneeling in her basic "TLW" outfit, the one worn in second and third seasons, sort of fawn color, as opposed to the darker one from the first season. You can access that one and one of her swinging on a vine on the producers' site. Click on the "buttons" for "Characters" and other topics. There are four or five photos of Jen under the "Veronica" heading. (For those who don't know, Jen was the only American in the show. She played Veronica, the hot jungle blonde whose explorer parents vanished. The Challenger expedition people live with her in her treehouse, which is huge and has a primitive elevator.)

I think the address is: www.lostworldtv.net Note that this NOT .com. That's something wholly unrelated. Use .net! You can click on, "Message Boards" there, and read our forums, covering actors, program episodes, etc. We have fans from about 11 countries!

If you like "The Lost World", you ought to join the forums. Also, there are two companies offering DVD's of the first season shows. The one from Liberty has footage of the convention in Long Beach last year, where Jen, Will Snow (Lord Roxton) and David Orth (Malone) were interviewed and mingled witrh fans. (Rachel was having a baby back in Australia and couldn't come, and Peter MacCauley (Prof. Challenger) had other committments in his native New Zealand. The actors were wonderful, very friendly, witty, and delighted to be with the fans. (TLW fans are about as dedicated as Trekkies. Some, I fear, are obsessed with the series. It does have a wonderful chemistry among the cast and the acting isn't hokey, as with the producers' other shows, like the ridiculous, "Xena" or, "Beastmaster". And TLW is the only show I know of that has good guys who aren't cops carrying guns (Veronica carried a Fairbairn type dagger in her boot and two throwing knives behind her loincloth/skirt, except that she had a cruder knife in the first season.)

In the third season, we also had Lara Cox playing Finn, the chick in black hot pants, who uses a crossbow. She's from the 21st Century, a result of one of Challenger's experiments allowing her back into the 1920 time of the group. Lara is from Canberra, but had a voice coach to help her sound American, as the show is so popular in North America.

Oh: the Liberty DVD also has blooper scenes from all three seasons, profiles of the cast, etc. The one from another DVD company doesn't have these extras. Second season DVD should be out on April 20, with third season DVD this summer. Amazon.com will sell them, and some copies are still available of the first season's shows.

I'll try to post a request for someone who knows more photo links to come over here and tell you guys where to find stuff. There have been some pretty hot promo pix of the girls. Jen has been in the front section of, "Playboy" a couple of times, but they used photos from her profile. There is one nude extant, with her pressed up against a shower wall. Of course, you can search for sites dedicated to the actresses by name, and one of Jen has some good pix.

Join the forum, and someone will be happy to tell you how to access pix, and you can Search for links already posted. In the Actors threads, CAP (member) has a link up now to one photo of Jen, although it isn't one of my faves.

Hope this didn't wander too far Off Topic. If you do join the site, we can talk about Lost World guns. But watch some episodes of the show first, to see who uses what. (I have led threads about the guns on the TLW site in the past. I'm Explorer there.) Visit us. Help us pray for a fourth season! At the moment, it looks as if a miniseries may be filmed to tie up loose ends, as funds didn't allow for a fourth season to be shot.

Lone Star

[Hal]

Is the picture of Jen O'Dell and Rachel Blakely the one that originally ran in, "FHM". hey, I'm pleading the 5th here bud :D
(but yep - that be the one);)
Pappy -
google - rachel blakely - images - second page

[Lone Star]

WARNING-

Going to Google or other search engines will yield sites supposedly devoted to Jennifer O'Dell that will flip you to other, very graphic sites, generating continuous pop-ups that are sometimes very hard to get rid of. They have nothing to do with Jen, and I imagine that she's disgusted with it.

I just tried the Google approach suggested by Hal, but he wasn't precise enough, and one link I hit on is sending me pop-ups now. I hope they go away when I turn off the computer.

I see that the official "Lost World" site www.lostworldtv.net/bbs has a link now to an E-Bay photo of Jen, and E-Bay usually has some Jennifer O'Dell items. Same for Rachel Blakely, who is one of Australia's better known actresses.

I guess that's about all we should say about the show, unless someone wants to discuss the guns there in a new thread.

But, BEWARE of trying to find pix of Jen and Rachel on the Net unless you know the link is a safe one to visit.

Lone Star