ATF SBR engraving clarification


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brobin10
July 28, 2011, 09:38 AM
My revokable trust name set up by my lawyer is pretty long due to the length of my name.

My question is: how much abbreviating does the ATF allow?

is there some clarification on this somewhere??

I am looking to get a DDLES dedicated 9mm lower and want them to do the engraving instead of having to ship it off to Orion engraving (more expensive). DDLES only allows 18 character per line witha total of 2 lines.

the name of my trust is:

Firstname MiddleInitial Lastname Revokable Trust

can i abbreviate the engraving to "XYZ Revok Trust" followed underneath with "City State initials"?

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Bubbles
July 28, 2011, 11:43 AM
http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/1/12/gun-nfa-trust-frequently-asked-questions
7. What are the marking/engraving requirements for making a Suppressor, Short Barreled Rifle/Shotgun, or Any Other Weapon? See our article on the requirements here. UPDATE: The BATFE has just decided that trust names CANNOT be abbreviated. Although they were allowing abbreviations in the beginning, they have, effective 1/20/09, reversed that decision. Ironically, an individual on Ar-15.com recently posted an error letter, dated 1/20/09, for his application because he abbreviated his trust’s name. See the error letter here. However, one may be able to obtain a variance from the BATFE for the required marking. If information on marking variances, see Guide to Marking Variances.

I would amend the trust so that its name is shortened to something like:
FirstInit MiddleInit LastName Trust (IIRC you don't need "revokable" or "living" in the trust name, just the documents where it's set up). It'll decrease your cost of engraving as well, since most places charge by the letter.

FWIW we charge a flat $25 for all SBR/SBS engraving, with no limits on line length or line count.

forindooruseonly
July 28, 2011, 11:59 AM
If you are not using a trust but going through CLEO sign-off, do you still have to engrave your name on the SBS? I'm working under the assumption you do, but just for clarification's sake.

GoingQuiet
July 28, 2011, 12:09 PM
If you are not using a trust but going through CLEO sign-off, do you still have to engrave your name on the SBS? I'm working under the assumption you do, but just for clarification's sake.
Signatures via Form 1 still need to be engraved.

That having been said - I have yet to see a Form 1 gun with engraving.

GoingQuiet
July 28, 2011, 12:11 PM
My revokable trust name set up by my lawyer is pretty long due to the length of my name.

My question is: how much abbreviating does the ATF allow?

is there some clarification on this somewhere??

I am looking to get a DDLES dedicated 9mm lower and want them to do the engraving instead of having to ship it off to Orion engraving (more expensive). DDLES only allows 18 character per line witha total of 2 lines.

the name of my trust is:

Firstname MiddleInitial Lastname Revokable Trust

can i abbreviate the engraving to "XYZ Revok Trust" followed underneath with "City State initials"?
This is what happens when lawyers get paid by the word and need to justify their bill.

I had one customer who basically had me do the Form 4 as (name changed, but you get the idea) - "The Robert and Jill Wojohowitz Joint Living Trust Agreement Dated December 15th, 2010 in the year of our lord."

brobin10
July 28, 2011, 12:46 PM
thanks for the help guys....i did some reading after posting the question and also now see that abbreviations are no longer accepted by the ATF

Goingquiet: haha such a great trust name!

Bubbles: I will definitely contact you when i need the engraving done....i dont feel like getting the name of the trust changed plus i was born and raised in WV....now live in VA though

paul
July 28, 2011, 01:42 PM
Bubbles,
you have mail...:D

p

LiquidTension
July 30, 2011, 02:01 PM
That having been said - I have yet to see a Form 1 gun with engraving.

Really? Hard to believe that people would jump through the hoops with the CLEO signoff, prints, pictures, trust, whatever - and skip that part. Mine's engraved :)

GoingQuiet
July 30, 2011, 06:56 PM
Really? Hard to believe that people would jump through the hoops with the CLEO signoff, prints, pictures, trust, whatever - and skip that part. Mine's engraved :)
There's a lot of old Form 1 guns that were never engraved, there are a lot of current Form 1 guns that are not and will not be engraved. It is a fact of life.

rjrivero
July 30, 2011, 07:33 PM
All of mine are engraved. No abbreviations, other than the state abbreviation.

atomchaser
July 31, 2011, 12:35 PM
GoingQuiet - Do you know of a place on the Space Coast or Orlando that does engraving on AR lowers?

TIA.

GoingQuiet
July 31, 2011, 10:53 PM
GoingQuiet - Do you know of a place on the Space Coast or Orlando that does engraving on AR lowers?

TIA.
Spikes in Apopka. Or I can send it out and have it engraved for you.

jmorris
August 1, 2011, 08:04 AM
I had a friend laser engrave mine to min height (and they don't allow "multi" these days). Your lawyer did the hard part with all of the words, you can change the name on the trust as you like. Even a diferent one for every NFA item "DDLES SBR TRUST", "AAC EVO 9 TRUST" you get the idea.


http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/sbr.jpg

Utah Shotgunner
August 1, 2011, 09:34 PM
jmorris,

I thought that there was a depth that each letter must be? Does the laser meet that requirement?

My SBR has a lasered logo on the magwell and my name engraved. The engraving is MUCH deeper.

WNTFW
August 1, 2011, 10:18 PM
If it is a CO2 laser the depth probably won't meet requirements.
If it is a different type of laser such as YAG it might.

Like I tell guys on minimum depth & letter size. "Do you really want to have that discussion on the side of the road at 2AM"

Brobin,
Can you break up the line into 2 lines?

GoingQuiet
August 2, 2011, 12:05 AM
jmorris,

I thought that there was a depth that each letter must be? Does the laser meet that requirement?

My SBR has a lasered logo on the magwell and my name engraved. The engraving is MUCH deeper.
Depth is .003 min and 3/16th high.

CO2 lasers typically remove finish, not metal.

LiquidTension
August 2, 2011, 12:32 AM
there are a lot of current Form 1 guns that are not and will not be engraved. It is a fact of life.

Oh I'm not doubting you, I just don't understand why you would go through the hard part of the process but leave out the cheap and easy part. I'm not aware of any criminal charges being filed against anyone for not having the engraving done, but why would anyone want to take the chance?

jmorris
August 2, 2011, 09:22 AM
You can chemical etch deep enough, the laser engraving above is deeper than that.

brobin10
August 2, 2011, 05:59 PM
my plan is to find an engraver that can do it in multiple lines.

orion engraving is too much and everytime i ask them about something they raise the price.

one of the first posts from the shop in WV is where i will ultimately get my engraving done.

i dont want to risk changing the name for engraving or abbreviate. i plan to use the full trust name just like the trust states

rjrivero
August 4, 2011, 03:22 PM
I haven't used these guys, but I've heard good things. You might want to give them a call if you're in need of engraving. http://www.customizedcreationz.com/

brobin10
August 4, 2011, 04:36 PM
thanks!

afterlife
August 5, 2011, 01:12 AM
I can do engraving and threading.

Interested let me know.

halogrinder
August 5, 2011, 11:23 PM
so wait- clarify please.


a Form1 suppressor (after its been approved) just has to have the model and serial number on it, right? it doesnt have to have the entire spell out of the trust, or does it?


so lets say i SBR or SBS, then the receiver has to have a model and serial number from the form1, but also the entire spell out of the trust... or does it?

Bubbles
August 6, 2011, 10:04 AM
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.4.7.27.2&idno=27

Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
PART 479—MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS
Subpart G—Registration and Identification of Firearms

§ 479.102 How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:

(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and

(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:

(i) The model, if such designation has been made;

(ii) The caliber or gauge;

(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;

(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and

(v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.

(b) The depth of all markings required by this section will be measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases).

(c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.

(d) In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or impracticable.

(e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section.

(f)(1) Any part defined as a machine gun, muffler, or silencer for the purposes of this part that is not a component part of a complete firearm at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section.

(2) The Director may authorize other means of identification of parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.

halogrinder
August 6, 2011, 10:44 AM
thanks for the info!

so:

model
serial number
caliber
trust name
city state


right?

rjrivero
August 6, 2011, 12:00 PM
If you're using a stripped lower, then the model is already on the lower as is the serial number. The caliber is usually either on the lower or on the barrel. I have never engraved a SBR with a Caliber.

You only have to add the Name of the Trust, City, and State.

If you're using an 80% lower that you must mill and finish, then you need to assign it a model name, serial number, caliber. Then you must add the Trust Name, City, and State as well.

GoingQuiet
August 7, 2011, 03:48 PM
thanks for the info!

so:

model
serial number
caliber
trust name
city state


right?
Depends. You can utilize existing makers marks if you are re-manufacturing.

In many cases this involves you only having to put maker info / location.

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