Military qualification terminology


PDA






dirtymike1
July 28, 2011, 10:05 AM
Iíve been researching military weapons qualifications and have a question regarding the terminology. My questions regard what is the difference between a rifle and an auto rifle, as I have seen people from Vietnam era qualify with the M-16 and while one says rifle, the other says auto-rifle. I see this most when they have qualified with both the M-14 and M-16, the 14 will be listed as rifle and the 16 auto-rifle.

The other question is what would be considered a small bore pistol? Would that be a black powder gun? Iíve yet to see one of these listed as a qualification, so it may be older than Iíve seen yet. Or if someone were to qualify with both a .38 revolver and a .45 pistol, would the .38 be considered the small bore?

Sorry if these seems a little disjointed, Iím just not 100% on how to phrase this question. Thanks for you help!

If you enjoyed reading about "Military qualification terminology" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
blackDdefense
July 28, 2011, 10:26 AM
M16A1-F/A with "A2" style upper
M16A2-Burst with "A2" upper
M16A3-F/A flattop
M16A4-Burst flattop
M4-Burst
M4A1-F/A

Owen
July 28, 2011, 11:24 AM
hard to say without more detail, but on of the positions in a rifle squad is "automatic rifleman." His job is to lay down suppressive fire. This job is usually performed by a belt-fed machine gun, but some branches (mostly the Marines) have long tried to fill it with a rifle type weapon with sustained fire, such as the BAR, the M14E2, and now the IAR. When I hear "Automatic Rifle" this is what comes to mind.

Owen
July 28, 2011, 11:24 AM
oh, small-bore almost always refers to .22LR in American small arms jargon.

dirtymike1
July 28, 2011, 11:27 AM
I think I missed the mark when I wrote the OP.

I talking in terms of qualification bars that hang on Marksman, Sharpshoot and Expert Badges. I understand how these weapons function and there role in combat, but when it comes down to getting an award how are they determined. Does that make more sense?

Thanks for the small-bore answer Owen

scythefwd
July 28, 2011, 11:29 AM
Mike, I belive you have that backwards. The m16 is rifle, always for the Army anyways (when talking about qualifications). The M14 might have been Automatic Rifle. My M249 was that (belt fed baby :) )

The funny thing is, there is also a machine gun qual. Not sure what you have to fire for that... M60 or bigger? The manual for the 249 is The M249 machine gun in the automatic rifle role.

dirtymike1
July 28, 2011, 11:33 AM
What I have seen was on late 60's and early 70's DD214's, before the Army phased out the M14 completely. Now though, the M16 is just a rifle, but back than they called it an auto rifle, only if you had qualified with the M14 as well though.

M60 or M2 for the machine gun bar IIRC, the M249 is, like you said, a "rifle"

blackDdefense
July 28, 2011, 11:46 AM
"Qualified" with the M240B. It doesn't take much for record fire to be called an experrt..LOL. It is all based on scored hits for quals. I am talking in the sense of Army 2000-2010. Don't know about other branches.

blackDdefense
July 28, 2011, 11:47 AM
Crew served is what we call the big boys..The 60 is all but dead..Gimme a 240 any day

scythefwd
July 28, 2011, 12:15 PM
the 249 actually gets you the automatic rifle.

MarkDido
July 28, 2011, 06:19 PM
I think I missed the mark when I wrote the OP.

I talking in terms of qualification bars that hang on Marksman, Sharpshoot and Expert Badges. I understand how these weapons function and there role in combat, but when it comes down to getting an award how are they determined. Does that make more sense?

Thanks for the small-bore answer Owen

Score.

Branches might be different. I qualed expert in rifle and pistol years ago in the Navy. 220 overall score for each sticks in my mind for some reason.
Army and Marine Corps scores may be different.

MarkDozier
July 29, 2011, 03:53 AM
Can you say "Google"? i knew you could

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksmanship_Badge

303tom
July 29, 2011, 08:38 AM
How about these !

ATBackPackin
July 29, 2011, 08:48 AM
Can you say "Google"? i knew you could

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksmanship_Badge



Ahhh, looking at those Marine Corps Badges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USMCqualbadge.jpg) bring back some memories. In the Marine Corps, every Marine is a rifleman, the only thing worse than wearing a "pizza box" (Aka Marksman Badge) was getting a Big Chicken Dinner. One would be harassed nonstop for having to wear that badge. There was a guy in my unit that put a Sharp Shooter Badge on his uniform, unearned, and his punishment for getting caught was having to wear his Service Bravos or Charlies, depending on the weather, for a month with the correct badge.

Shawn

P.S.

5 time Rifle Expert, 3 time Pistol Expert. That would be on a Bar under the Badge.

dirtymike1
July 29, 2011, 10:53 AM
Hahahahaha, ok I can see that I've either really failed at trying to convey my question or people aren't reading what I'm asking.

Yes, I've Goggled the answer and I've even read AR-600-8-22 on the subject, but even the reg. hasn't answered my question.

What does the Army define as a "Rifle" vs. an "Auto-Rifle". The small bore question in the OP was answered already as being a .22 pistol.

Again, I've seen Vietnam era troops that have qualified with the M-14 and the M-16, and they will have the M-14 will be listed as "Rifle" and the M-16 will be listed as "Auto-Rifle". WHY? Because once the M-14 was phased out, troops that qualified with the M-16 would just get the "Rifle" bar?

Wiki does not explain this change what so ever, neither do the Army Reg's. I just wanted to see if any of the Vet's on here have any idea as to why it changed over the years.

blackDdefense
July 29, 2011, 11:14 AM
To answer the question. When the M16 came along it was an "auto rifle". When the 14 was phased out the M16 became the "RIFLE" badge. And then the M16A2 came along as a burst weapon. The standard issue rifle gets you the rifle badge.

SSN Vet
July 29, 2011, 03:33 PM
there are also these.....

146405

one of the few objective awards that couldn't be attained by pure brown nosing....

dirtymike1
July 29, 2011, 03:48 PM
To answer the question. When the M16 came along it was an "auto rifle". When the 14 was phased out the M16 became the "RIFLE" badge. And then the M16A2 came along as a burst weapon. The standard issue rifle gets you the rifle badge.


Ok cool, that's what I've figured but haven't found any hard information on. How about the period between the M1 Garand and the M14? I haven't seen anyone in the late 50's that had qualified with both of these weapons yet so I don't know... I don't know when the Army brought around the Auto-Rifle bar either so that may play into this time period

303tom
July 29, 2011, 06:18 PM
This is the Korean War Style.

Jeff82
July 29, 2011, 07:10 PM
You could shoot the regular rifle qual course and get a Rifle bar a/o you could shoot the auto-rifle course (usually reduced targets at 10m or 25m range from a bipod) and get the Autorifle bar.

blindhari
July 29, 2011, 07:32 PM
Armorer 1966-1969
M 14 was phased in to replace M 1 Garand
M 14 E2 was an m 14 with a selector switch designed to replace BAR as squad automatic weapon
In 1966 M 14 E2 was put in service as M 14 A1
Qualifications with M 14 and M14 A1 were listed as rifle and auto rifle respectively
M 14 A1 was listed as cycling at over 700 rounds per minute, real world check, it took a lot of time to get that 20 round mag in and out
Real firepower was m 60 machine gun firing same round, problem was heat disapation (melted barrel)
1 browning 50 ca, to be mounted on mess truck D ring

That was the TOE in a Berlin rifle company in 1968

blindhari
Sgt Berlin Brigade

lemaymiami
July 30, 2011, 01:10 PM
Y'all take me back aways. I went into the Army in Jan 1968 and qualified with the M-14 like everyone else. A year or so later everyone had to re-qual with the M-16 since that's was then the basic weapon. As a result I'm sure my old DD214 shows both. Since I was stateside at the time I figure the transition was well after those overseas had already traded in their 14's for the "matty mattel". I sweat bullets in basic to hit expert with the 14, I remember it was so easy with the smaller lighter weapon.

Of course that was a long, long time ago.

henschman
July 31, 2011, 03:06 PM
I have an old 25m qual target from the 60s. It has the M-14 and M-16 listed as "Rifle," and the BAR as "Auto Rifle."

Al Thompson
August 8, 2011, 09:08 PM
DirtyMike, Henschman has the gist of it. The BAR was the autorifle for an Infantryman till it was phased out. Interestingly enough, there were MTOE positions in an Infantry Fire Team for an "Automatic Rifleman (AR)" that was armed with an M16A1/A2 till the M249 was field in the mid '80's. We never qualified an AR in my time on active duty till the M249 was issued. We did have bi-pods and extra magazine pouches in the arms rooms that most supply SGTs were clueless about and ended up buying if the Company Commander was sharp. :D

If you enjoyed reading about "Military qualification terminology" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!