An odd scenario - opinions wanted...

[Chris Rhines]

Here's a strange one that my Dad brought up. I'm honestly not sure how to answer it.

You are walking through the stereotypical Dark Alley (tm). A Thug (tm) walks up to you, points a spray can at your face and says, "I've got pepper spray. Drop your wallet or I'll spray you."

Question is, are you or are you not justified in drawing on and/or shooting the thug?

Second scenario - Same situation as above, except the thug just walks up and sprays you with something that seems to be pepper spray. Justified in shooting, or no?

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this one.

- Chris

[itgoesboom]

My answer;

"Great, this is a pistol. Drop the spray AND YOUR wallet or I'll shoot ya.":D

Only half joking.

I.G.B.

Oh, and the correct answer is to not be in that dark alley in the first place. Avoidance is the best policy.

[Jeff White]

It's a deadly force situation. You are armed, if he sprays you with OC and you lose control of your weapon, you have armed the thug (tm) who now has the means to inflict death or great bodily harm on you or others. What guarantee do you have that he won't take your carry weapon and shoot you so there are no witnesses after he relieves you of your wallet, keys, credit cards etc.?

Ask yourself how you know that there is relatively harmless OC in that spray can. He could be about to spray you with anything. OC is classed as a less lethal weapon. People HAVE died from it.

Remember the "reasonable man rule". If you can convince a disinterested reasonable man that your use of deadly force was based on the fact that you believed that you (or another) were in iminent danger of being killed or having great bodily harm done to you, you should be justified.

After all, what did you know about the thugs (tm) intentions for you after you were incapcitated by the OC?

Jeff

[Preacherman]

You said it, Jeff. If he incapacitates you, he can gain control of your weapon, which immediately presents a lethal danger to you and to those he will attempt to rob after he's finished with you. Under the circumstances, I know what I'd do... and it wouldn't be to hand over my wallet!!!

[Col. Mustard]

Never bring pepper spray to a gun fight.... :rolleyes:

But seriously... What are the chances that in a state like CA or MA your argument of "well, I'm incapacitated, so he could have gotten my gun" could be negated by the argument, "well you created that situation by carrying the gun, so you cannot blame the perp for having access to a gun"?

Mind you, I'm not suggesting passivity; merely attempting to play Devil's Advocate...

[David Scott]

First off, I avoid dark alleys.

If, however, I needed to go down one, and such an incident happened, I would be guided by both common sense and Florida law -- if you can disengage without shooting, do so. I would back off, and at the first step he took toward me draw and come to the ready position, then warn him that another step will get him shot. The man would have to be a Grade A fool not to back off. If he was a Grade A fool, he'd earn himself a couple of Speer Gold Dots.

In those circumstances, I don't think I'd have much trouble from the police. Pepper spray is considered a weapon -- less than lethal, but still a weapon. If you doubt it, try taking some on an airplane.

[Wakal]

After being sprayed, I would tear up and miss my wife double tapping the idiot. Which would make me tear up again.

Seriously, though, as others have already said, pepper spray is considered a weapon.



Alex

[Double Naught Spy]

I am not convinced that it is a deadly force situation as described based on the argument that the spray would somehow incapacitate you and he could get your gun. That seems to default to the fact that since you are carrying a gun, that any sort of situation involving you defaults to being a deadly force situation because of the potential fear of losing the gun and it being used against you.

That being said, I would have no trouble with the argument that you were threatened by a person who threatened you with unknown chemical agents that you reasonably believed could cause serious bodily harm or injury to you. Just because the guy identified the chemical agent as pepper spray does not mean you have to believe him. After all, you have no reason to put any trust in the words of a person who is breaking the law with you as his intended victim. At least here in Texas, you can use deadly force to prevent serious bodily harm and chemical-caused blindness could be considered as serious bodily harm that you believed could be permanent as you actually have no credible knowledge as to the chemicals going to be used against you.

Appropriate responses are numerous here and some can be used with others. The first thing to do is to start putting distance between you and the chemcial dude. Most sprays have a fairly limited range. Shield your face with your off hand as well as possible such that you can't see the can directly, but can still see the bad guy. At the same time, close one eye. These two acts help to preclude loss of visioin due to getting the chemicals into your eyes. Ideally, at least one eye will be unaffected after his initial attack, if it comes.

As you retreat and shield, draw your weapon and start vocalizing whatever compliance you wish to demand from the guy, such as "Drop the Weapon!" Since the material is being used as a weapon against you and since you don't actually know if it is pepper spray or not, there is no reason to yell, "Drop the pepper spray." "Drop the Weapon!" will help to condition any potential witnesses that you were being threatened by a person who had a weapon, even if they can't see specifically what weapon the guy had. This will help in future legal actions where the witnesses will note that you were obviously in fear of the man with a weapon.

If the bad guy presses on his attack, at that point, you take whatever action you deem appropriate and hopefully things will go well for you with the police and courts. Whatever costs you incur from the incident will be a nice little reminder of just how badly you screwed up in going into a dark alley with poor situational awareness and hopefully that costly little lesson won't be lost on you in future events.

[Smurfslayer]

the can could be flat black Krylon spray paint, and would seriously & permanently screw up your vision. If he's got that, and is willing to use it to effect the unlawful taking of your property, what's to say he doesn't have a knife?

Probably a good idea to back up, maybe seek some cover if available, and it probably wouldn't hurt to at least move shooting hand to pistol butt... That's as much as I'll venture so far...

[Correia]

Who is to say that once he sprayed you in the face with pepper spray he wasn't going to stab, cut, bash, bludgeon, or otherwise molest you while you couldn't see or breathe?

I would think that you would be justified in shooting.

[Double Naught Spy]

Personally, I am a lot more afraid of black Krylon and Brake Cleaner (which the stuff I have will shoot several feet with the tube on it) than pepper spray.

[HS/LD]

Did you BELIEVE that you were in danger of bodily harm or even death?????

Yes = Shoot.


Regards,
HS/LD

[Bergeron]

I've been (voluntarily) sprayed with pepper spray. The burning sensation was not debilitating, but I was not able to open my eyes without a significant (hurt a LOT) amount of pain for a period of about an hour and a half. In my case, with that particular type of pepper spray, I would still have been able to fight back against a violent attack, though at a reduced capacity.

The stuff I got sprayed with was not the strongest stuff out there, and I think that if I got hit with anything stronger, I would have no use of my eyes for the duration of the attack, and that WOULD, IMO, eliminate my chances to defeat a violent attack.

Given that, I would turn my head from the pepper spray and run from the attacker if he threatened me with a "give me your wallet or else".

The second situation is quite disturbing. Again, I would run. If I would be able to think about it, I would drop the wallet before/while I ran, and hope the attacker would take it and leave me alone. If I was physically restrained in the attack, and carrying a gun, hopefully I would be able to tell where his body was and shoot at it.

I will agree with the others that brake cleaner in eyes would be much worse than pepper spray.

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

You don't know what the thug is going to do to you after he's sprayed you. You're under a deadly threat. Act accordingly.

- pdmoderator

[TallPine]

Well, since I have asthma, the pepper spray could very well be a lethal weapon.

[Gordon]

Threatens you with anything in hand? feet don't fail me now to cover, THEN run what you brung on YOUR TERMS IF he keeps coming. I prefer to gut chickens in dark alleys as I dont carry a muzzle no no, and I dont like red lights.:cool:

[beemerb]

Throw something else into this.I can't run.I walk with a cane and there are many others outhere that are handycaped in one way or another..By the way this could allso be a dark movie theater parking lot.This limits the options. I would think deadly force might be the only option in this cause.
Bob

[natedog]

perhaps hand over your wallet, and the moment he turns around you and your handgun kindly ask for it back

[Erick Gelhaus]

I concur with Jeff & Preacherman. But remember, it will come down to your ability to articulate the threat and why your response was appropriate.

[Shaughn Leayme]

A good reason to wear glasses and if you don't need them, get a good pair of clear shooting glasses and wear them, some of the spray does get thru but not enough to totally disable you.

[Daniel Flory]

If I can run away- Run away to safety.

If its a really deserted area and I'll just wear myself out by running- Inflict max damage in the shortest amount of time possible. This could mean drawing your knife, grabbing his hand, and turning his arm into a meat popsicle; or it could mean drawing your gun and ending it right there.

Either way, the call is very situational. Your instincts may take over and all of a sudden you may find yourself standing over a knocked out BG because you grabbed the spray and pummelled them with your elbow.

[GhostShooter]

While I think you have the right to defend yourself in this situation I believe you would spend along time in court proving that you were right. Also let me spin this scenario around. You are walking along the street and some "punk" starts to come up to you and talking real fast. You tell him to stop but he refuses (for whatever reason didn't hear, can't understand English that well). You tell him a second time to stop or you'll spray him. He doesn't stop and you spray him with pepper spray. Does he have the legal right to use deadly force against you here?

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/2M16.gif

[King]

Tough scenario....If I believed myself to be in a life threatening or great bodily harm situation, I would likely draw down on the would be robber. However, I think I'll quite a few legal problems if I actually shoot the punk.

Our CHL instructor (Texas) told us a story similar to this one. As it played out in court it went something like this.

Prosecutor: Did this poor unfortunate robber threaten to kill you?

Victim: No sir.

Prosecutor: What did you have in your wallet that couldn't be replaced? Can't you invalidate your credit cards, replace your DL or see your insurance guy about that $37 you had.

Victim: I guess I could have.

Prosecutor: You have license to carry?

Victim: Yes sir.

Prosecutor: Do you own several guns?

Victim: Yes sir.

Prosecutor: You just wanted to shoot someone didn't you? This is the opportunity you've been waiting on isn't it?



After you spend a boat load of $$ getting out of this jam, the guy sues you in civil court.



My view, if I though I were really in danger, I would draw on the guy. Besides being armed with pepper spray, he could be doped up, crazed or have that look of severe desperation. I'm sure I heard him say that he would kill me your honor.

I'm not too sure a juryt will believe the pepper spray was a deadly weapon though. Maybe you need to keep a throw down knife with you.

[Drjones]

King raises a good point, however I think a better case is made by others.

First, we all know that pepper spray is LESS than lethal; people HAVE died from it.

Second, how do you know what it is? It could indeed be brake cleaner, insecticide, or some other chemical that could indeed blind, severely injure, or even kill you!

If THAT isn't "fear of GRAVE bodily HARM" then nothing is...

I'd rather be safe than sorry...

[JPM70535]

I would like to throw one more factor into the scenario. You believe you are in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm if the perp sprays you causing loss of vision to the extent that you are no longer able to fight back. You try to retreat and the perp follows your movement. You draw your weapon and issue the standard warning. The perp fails to heed. You do what you need to do to stop the aggression. you look around and since this is a deserted alley there is no one within gunshot distance, you now face a critical decision. Do you call 911 and wait for the police and the almost certain arrest and civil suit to follow? Or assuming you live where you don't have to register your weapons,do you simply fade away? Think hard, no one witnessed your actions.


Those who beat their guns into plows will plow for those who don't

[jrhines]

Chris and I got to talking about this when he was home for Christmas. He said it would be a good thread, and he has turned out to be correct.
We took it a step farther, that after you try to retreat, the perp follows you, continuing the threat. How far do you have to run before you belive your life is in danger? Clearly if he sprays you or touches you, he has escalated the event to where I belive you should draw and warn. But lacking any spray or touching, at what point do you brandish your weapon or shoot.

JR

Seneca, MD

[Jeff White]

JR,
Depending on what kind of OC the assailant has, he could be capable of hitting you from 10 or more feet away. You're almost in a Tueller drill type situation. Personally, I'd draw while opening the distance between the tow of us, and if he continued to advance once presented with the fact he was facing a firearm, I'd shoot.

This would most likely happen way to fast for you to think it out. The BG would most likely be very close when he made his move anyway. I'd react the same way I would when faced with a knife, open a reactive distance and draw my weapon. If that didn't instantly end the attack, I'd shoot.

THINK TUELLER DRILL when you think of how you'll deal with this, because I see a lot of similarities. It may not be a knife, it may not even be OC, but why take the chance? If he has OC or some other bad substance you could be just as dead as if he had a knife. I personally think that anyone using OC as a weapon to effect a robbery would get very close before he even announced his intention, at that point you need to turn your head away, push him away with a stunning blow to the chest from your weak hand and back away while drawing. This all will most likely happen in much less time then it takes to read it.

Jeff

[roscoe]

Police are generally authorized to shoot if they are in danger, or in the process, of being sprayed with OC.

[King]

JPM...don't be so sure that "no one saw it" before you fade away and the incident goes unreported. In urban areas, we are now surrounded by "video" surveilance at stores , banks, etc. Plus, the night has a thousand eyes.

If you were justified in shooting and then fade away without reporting it, you'll be in deep trouble if and when you get caught. Those would not be viewed as the appropriate moves of an innocent victim.

Me, I would report it. I can live with the truth and myself and perhaps the consequences.

[dave]

As stated by roscoe above, when I went through the academy we were told that pepper spray was a deadly force issue. We were told that, when a suspect threatened to spray us, use of deadly force was ok.

After having been sprayed, I can understand why.

[Anthony]

I agree with many of the other opinions here.

You have no idea what he will do once he has incapacitated you.

Front Sight...Press Trigger...Repeat as Necessary...

- Anthony

[Powderman]

First scenario:

If the idiot produces the pepper spray, don't back up. If you are able to fight, then YOU attack THEM, especially if it's one on one. And, no Marquis of Queensberry rules, either. Attack savagely. Kicks, hard punches to any part of the body, whatever works.

Duck, weave, bob. Don't let them get the chance to get the first sentence out. The minute the can of spray is leveled, you should be off into his a**--with a quickness!!:evil:

Using deadly force to repel a pepper spray (OC) attack would probably fly in court--IF you are physically handicapped, or have asthma or another documented ailment.

Second scenario:

Don't even think about leaving the scene of a shooting. The urge might be strong, but don't do it. You will probably turn a perfectly justified shoot into a murder case--and you will be the defendant.

Wherever you go, and whatever you do, you leave evidence. Trust me, when a forensic examiner goes after evidence, they go after it. You WILL be found out. You WILL be caught. And, you WILL go to prison.

Someone else also mentioned surveillance cameras. Believe it, friend.

There are outdoor PTZ cameras in use right now that can read your license plate, in the dark, from a quarter-mile away, with crystal clarity. They can also track a vehicle running across their field of view at speeds up to 60 miles per hour. IR illuminators the size of a basketball can light up a parking lot as bright as day in pitch blackness.

So, if you HAVE to use deadly force, and it is a good shoot, immediately:

Call aid and police.
Call your attorney.
When the police arrive, expect to be contacted at gunpoint. You most likely will be proned out, disarmed, and handcuffed.
Follow your attorney's advice from there.

Whatever you do--don't run. Please--don't run.

[sonoranjack]

The first scenario is a robbery. Deadly force is justified. The second scenario. Deadly force might be justified but will you be able to respond w/ deadly force? What if ya get sprayed. While your backing away, reaching for your pistol. A passer by sees that you've been sprayed. Runs over to help which scares off the BG. All you can see is a human shape & shoot the passer by that came over to help. I would think that if someone was in the act of spraying you. You might be able to use deadly force to prevent being sprayed. But after being sprayed w/ your vision imparied. How do you know what your shooting at?

[sonoranjack]

This advice was given to me by a firearms instructor who had 18 years experience as a homicide detective. The first thing ya do is secure the BG weapon. 2 reasons. 1) It's doesn't disappear from the crime scene. BGs friends have been known to remove weapons from crime scenes to tamper w/ crime scene. Another reason is so that weapon can't be used against ya a second time. 2) Leave crime scene. This revents further attack. 3) Call 911 report man down possible gunshot give loaction of victim. Don't give your location. 4) Contact lawyer. Give lawyer BGs weapon in the same condition as it left the crime scene. The only thing ya should do is unload it if it's a gun. While keeping BGs weaqpon for safe keeping don't tamper w/ it. Example of tapering w/ BGs weapon don't put your bullets in BGs gun if you found it unloaded. If the BGs guns was loaded but not fired. Don't shoot the gun & say BG fired at you first. If you remove the BGs weapon from the crime scene for safe keeping w/ the intention of turning that weapon into the police & you have not added or removed any thing. You have not tampered w/ evidence. W/ your lawyer make a prepaired statement. Your lawyer will help you make a prepaired statement. 5) W/ lawyer, BGs weapon, & prepaired statement turn your self in to the police. 6) After you tur your self in w/ your lawyer follow your lawyers lead. He should keep the police from questioning you. Let the police conduct the investigation. If ya get charged ya get charge. You can't contol the police investigation. You can control the information ya give to the police. Ya don't want to lie but ya don't want to be questioned either. I take no credit for this advice. But it sounds good. I shure lotsa cops that read this will disagree. But when a cop responds to this advice. Will that response be based on whats in the best intrest of the citizen involved in the shooting? Or will the cops response be whats in the best intrest of the police investigation. Remember if ya stay at the scene the police will question ya. At that time you will not be under arrest so you wont be given your Maranda warning. During questioning after a shooting ya might get the facts screwed up. Ya might say something about the BG that ya shouldn't. Ya might give the facts 1 way after the shooting then give a different version after ya calmed down. w/ 2 different versions of events the police might use that agaist ya. After the shooting ya tell the police "he had a gun in his wast band & came at me" When in reality he had the gun in his hand & pointed it at ya. Then latter ya tell ths police that he had the gun in his wast band then pulled it out & pointed it at ya. Well thie first time a didn't say he had it in his hand. That could trip ya up. Remember anything ya say can be used against ya. Even what ya say before they arrest ya & give your Maranda warning.

[Admiral Thrawn]

That is the one thing that always worries me about a lethal force confrontation...

if the BG slowly walked towards you with a stupid grin on his face, ignoring your warnings and commands.... what do you do? This is if you have your handgun drawn and pointing at him....

What are LEO's trained to do?

Say if the guy had a knife or bat even...

To me, just shooting the guy in the COM seems wrong... but if you went for the legs, you'd probably end up getting prosecuted and / or sued.

What should you do? :confused:

[Shaughn Leayme]

Depending where you are, it all comes down to what a reasonable person would do if placed in your situation.

If you discharge a fiream and hit the BG in the leg, shoulder, arm and you say to the officer I didn't want to kill him......Well you just lost your justifiable shooting protection (claim of self defense), since you did not believe this individual was enough of a threat to shoot to kill, then you should not have shot in the first place.

As far as being prosecuted or sued, expect the one for sure. The family will probably try to sue you anyway, in thier words why did you have to shoot him, couldn't you have run away or something else...you didn't need to shoot/kill him yada yada yada...

Check the local laws where you live and precedents that have been set, this will give you a better idea of what your options are in such an event.

[Mike Irwin]

If you can, take a deep breath, hold it, and start backpedaling as fast as you can.

Second option is to pull out your wallet, hold it up, and then throw it to one side while going either backwards or to the other side.

I often carry a money clip with a bunch of ones in it to make it look bulky. If I'm ever in that situation, I'll pull the clip out, show it to the person, and give it a toss, and hope things develop favorably from there.

[Powderman]

Admiral Thrawn:

If I draw my service weapon on someone, then that someone has met all of the requirements for a lethal force response. There are only two possible outcomes from my corner:

a. The perp chooses wisely, drops his/her weapon, and obeys without hesitation the lawful commands that I give them.

b. The perp chooses poorly, attempts to carry out their threat to my life, or my partner's life, or to the life of another citizen. They do not drop their weapon. They will then be fired upon, with rounds aimed center of mass, until they cease what they are doing, cease being a threat, or collapse--whichever comes first.

If a suspect advances on an officer who has a weapon drawn or leveled, then they become a lethal threat in themselves. Guess what? They are NOT coming toward you to invite you to dinner. What manner of human being will advance on someone with a drawn firearm pointed at them?

That being said, with everything else taken into account, I would reholster and resecure my firearm, and use every tactic I had in the book to get them in cuffs--whether it is OC, hands-on, pressure point control, joint locks, throws, downright hard fist or knife-hand strikes, knee lifts, aimed foot strikes, or baton applications to secondary and primary targets.

If the person has a bat, or a knife, guess what? Those are deadly weapons, if used with intent.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Thamks for the replies, peeps.

It seems to me that the best option would be to reholster (with the handgun secured) and try to disable the person by other means... but this would still be extremely difficult, especially if you're alone and they start swinging away with an aluminium baseball bat...

OC spray seems to be the best bet, and if that still didn't work, well then I guess two to the COM would be your only option, unless you were able to somehow run away.

[CMichael]

Shoot!

[Trisha]

I have asthma: OC is essentially fatal to me.

CQB rules apply here, for me.

Trisha

[Elmer Snerd]

I would consider threats with pepper spray, tear gas, tasers, stunners, etc. as justification for lethal force. Even if it is technically "nonlethal" it still could(key phrase) render me helpless against a person who has expressed hostile intent.