Chiappa adding RFID chips to their guns


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newbuckeye
July 29, 2011, 03:06 PM
Anybody getting in line for one of these??

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/07/29/chiappa-adding-rfid-chips-to-their-guns-mks-suggests-concerned-consumers-wrap-the-revolver-and-their-head-in-aluminum-foil/

From the article......

"The sale of Chiappa firearms in the USA is about to plummet. They have just made the worst gun industry PR move of the decade.

Earlier this week gun bloggers and forum readers noticed that Chiappa Firearms, Italy, had issued a press release saying that they were going to embed RFID chips into their firearms............"

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Rail Driver
July 29, 2011, 03:16 PM
Scratch Chiappa (and any other manufacturer) off my list if they actually do end up producing all their guns with RFID chips.

M-Cameron
July 29, 2011, 03:46 PM
so what.....

I don't see what the bIg deal is........because some hacker with a boat load of custom equipment and a pringles can-tenna might find out you have a gun from 300' away...?



I agree with chiappa....must be tinfoil time.

there was also a huge scare when they started putting chips in credit cards and passports......that 'hackers' were going to steal all your info, eat your babies, and run amok....

Zundfolge
July 29, 2011, 03:50 PM
LOTS of manufacturers of LOTS of products use RFID chips to track materials and product through their manufacturing process.

They are NOT some sort of government plot.

They are NOT some sort of tracking device.


I guess now would be a good time to buy Alcoa stock. :rolleyes:

Dnaltrop
July 29, 2011, 04:01 PM
http://www.chiappafirearms.com/contact-us

~~~~
Registered my displeasure with them... as follows.
~~~~

Good day Sir or Madam,

My wife has been asking for a Rhino since seeing the videos from SHOTshow earlier this year, however today I saw something rather disturbing. I'm sure you're getting a flood of mail now regarding the introduction of RFID chips to your products.

I'm no tinfoil hatter, But my early jobs in my youth were in electronic components. RFID does NOT have a short range, and the growing exploits by dishonest people who can afford $100 in parts make the addition of any such chips a serious impediment to purchasing anything including said devices.

Whilst in it's infancy, such products look like a dream come true for inventory control, most of us who carry concealed don't want our being armed broadcast to those of ill intent and some small measure of electronic knowledge. Such crimes are rapidly increasing in number here in the US, with people scanning Credit Cards simply by walking around with a reader for RFID.

Additionally, in many states, while we have Concealed and open carry laws... many jurisdictions do everything they can to make the actual carrying of Pistols as inconvenient, and legally painful as possble, including illegal and improper arrests... and threats of further legal action being dropped in exchange for not suing.

I shudder to think of being pinged by a passing officer for being a legal Concealed weapon carrier, and "investigated"

It is true that I am perfectly capable of disabling such a chip, should my wife come home with her Rhino, the point remains that most of us are deeply offended by the very suggestion of even the inclusion of such devices.

I wish you well, but understand... I will not be purchasing any of your products if this plan comes to fruition.

I am a Cowboy Action shooter, precisely your bread and butter.

Best wishes

~~~

Oh and M-cameron... people ARE stealing CC info out of the air just walking around with RFID scanners. It's not tinfoil hattery, nor does it take a "lot" of equipment.

Even Mythbusters won't touch the topic with a 10 foot pole
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X034R3yzDhw&feature=related

Afterthought... chips have been read as far as several hundred yards away in some cases... Now lets say it's down to 20 feet. Tech-baddie sees you leave for the day and manages to get the ping from the RFID chipped guns in your house, from outside.

SSN Vet
July 29, 2011, 04:06 PM
sounds like another Zumbo moment coming on....

but what the hey.... people forgave Ruger, so why not?

CWL
July 29, 2011, 04:14 PM
Not that I would ever consider buying their products because of this decision, but it is simple to defeat RFIDs by simply removing them, destroying them in place, or placing metal/metallic mylar stickers over them.

M-Cameron
July 29, 2011, 04:16 PM
Oh and M-cameron... people ARE stealing CC info out of the air just walking around with RFID scanners. It's not tinfoil hattery, nor does it take a "lot" of equipment.

yes, but not with anywhere near the frequency that people initially feared.....

also, i find it hard to believe that someone is going to roam around with an RFID scanner to find people who on the off chance happen to be carrying a Chiappa gun....

and if they do find you......what is it you think they are going to do...?

as for your comments about police.........you think they are going to start equipping police cars with RFID readers in hopes to find people with a gun that hopefully has an RFID chip...?



now if by some chance the Govt required that all guns be RFID chipped...then yes, i would disagree.......

but one manufacturer......i dont have a problem.

heck, Chiappa even said it themselves.......if after you get the gun....remove the chip if you want to......should be pretty simple to pop it off as its only hot glued it.

smurf hunter
July 29, 2011, 04:19 PM
Most of you are missing the point. The RFID is a point of debate for sure, but the bigger issue is their horrible PR and disrespect towards potential customers.

The only copy of this release is in Italian (http://www.tiropratico.com/Cinzia_Pinzoni/RFID_chiappa.pdf), but multiple sources have apparently translated and commented.

CoRoMo
July 29, 2011, 04:20 PM
So you're carrying a Rhino concealed with a chip on it. Your in the vicinity of a tech-wise individual with the electronic hardware capable to read the information on that tag. What's the worst that could happen?

Onward Allusion
July 29, 2011, 04:20 PM
M-Cameron (http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=106941)
so what.....
I don't see what the bIg deal is........because some hacker with a boat load of custom equipment and a pringles can-tenna might find out you have a gun from 300' away...?

I agree with chiappa....must be tinfoil time.

there was also a huge scare when they started putting chips in credit cards and passports......that 'hackers' were going to steal all your info, eat your babies, and run amok....It may not be an issue now, but when some Congressman or Senator who wants to make a name for themselves propose that all firearms must have RFID, then it will be a problem because you in essence have registration warrant-less search capability. It'll be pretty easy with Chiappa demonstrating that it can be feasible.

As for the chips in the credit cards, crooks do lift info that way. It's just a lot more effective to steal credit card info by the tens of thousands via servers.


on the off chance happen to be carrying a Chiappa gun....

Think longer term...

wheelgunslinger
July 29, 2011, 04:21 PM
The only use of this technology is to violate my right to privacy.

Dnaltrop
July 29, 2011, 04:22 PM
Baby steps M-Cam. something seen as a "good idea" can spread like gangrene.

A lawsuit in the right place blaming the lack of a chip for a gun's illegal travels as a gang-banger gun could very well institute these sorts of practices industry wide. Imagine being charged with a felony for disabling the chip 10 years down the line.

And it's true, while not as pervasive as shoplifters, muggers, mail thieves... It's a growing industry, and as we adapt with our technology, such crimes will adapt as we do.

Justin
July 29, 2011, 04:22 PM
If you don't like it, pry the damned thing out. Sheesh.

hso
July 29, 2011, 04:29 PM
It is an inventory tracking and control mechanism for manufacturers, not some hideous shadow government conspiracy.

Potentially a high .. Good Lord, we're wetting ourselves over some undeveloped technology that might possibly one day be used to abuse your privacy. Better toss your cell phones into the shredder!

USAF_Vet
July 29, 2011, 04:32 PM
How are these things being installed? Some RFID chips can be implanted in polymer frames as they are being molded. Kinda hard to simply pry them out if that is the case. While I know the Chiappa guns aren't polymer framed, doesn't mean that they don't put it someplace very difficult to access.

I'm not a fan of Chiappa guns anyway, so I won't be purchasing one, RFID chip or not.

Edit:
Read part of the article, found the answer.

RFID Removal: For those still concerned you can simply remove the grip and remove the hot glued RFID from the frame in the grip area when (over a year from now) these begin to appear. Others may prefer to wrap the revolver and their head in aluminum foil, curl in a ball and watch reruns of Mel Gibson's 1997 film, Conspiracy Theory. Well, that's a plan too!

I work in Inventory Control, so RFID chips don't bother me. I'd rather not have them in my guns, but if the above proves true, then who cares. Maybe the ATF might learn a thing or two for 2 Fast 2 Furious.

dirtykid
July 29, 2011, 04:38 PM
Im thinking the end of my dremel-bit would fix that little chip IF i ever decide to buy anything from them,, The fact that it's there does somewhat perturb me though

m33p0n3
July 29, 2011, 04:39 PM
Completely agree with Justin. They have made it reasonably clear in their press release that it is being used for inventory control and manufacturing. There's no guarantee that the chip will have any meaningful data present (i.e. serial number, type of firearm, etc.). It may just have a random number used in manufacturing to ensure QC.

Even if this becomes commonplace, I somehow really doubt somebody is going to be going around using RFID scanners to determine who is concealed carrying. I'm sorry, that sounds to me like a possible, but highly unlikely scenario.

That said, they also seem to be placing them in a reasonably easy to remove spot. It's one thing if embedded inside of a piece, but they're proposing putting them under the grip where removal is simple. It could make their job of manufacturing easier and better, which will trickle down to a better and cheaper product for you. What's your beef?

Spec ops Grunt
July 29, 2011, 04:40 PM
Couldn't you just stick the gun in the microwave for a little while and disable the chip anyway?

Dnaltrop
July 29, 2011, 04:41 PM
Mods, with greatest respect....

The time to complain and react to these sorts of things is BEFORE they become the norm.

Yes there is no overreaching conspiracy to drive vans up and down the street scanning for weapons, and matching those lists with registered owners.

Big Brother is not the one in our lives we typically have to worry about breaking into our homes at night and endangering those we love.

Lil' bastard however is the person we CCW for. and he's getting smarter every day.

USAF_Vet
July 29, 2011, 04:44 PM
Couldn't you just stick the gun in the microwave for a little while and disable the chip anyway?



What are guns made of? Metal. Metal + Microwave = bad.

MedWheeler
July 29, 2011, 04:45 PM
Couldn't you just stick the gun in the microwave for a little while and disable the chip anyway?

The only time I've ever seen a metal item in a microwave wasn't pretty (well, actually, it was real pretty..!)

USAF_Vet
July 29, 2011, 04:46 PM
RFID chip or not, the ultimate point here is that Chiappa and their distributor has treated their consumer base like a bunch of morons over the issue. Morons they may be, but you don't tell the people who give you money that they are morons, despite how you truely feel about them.

hso
July 29, 2011, 04:48 PM
Ooooooo


Ahhhhhh


OWWWWW

"Hello, Fire Department?"

Dnaltrop
July 29, 2011, 04:49 PM
Additional thought, if Inventory control is indeed their primary concern, I would have no issues if they heat-shrinked the chip externally to the barrel or grips. it's the inclusion INSIDE the gun that bothers me.

hso
July 29, 2011, 04:50 PM
RFID chips are like electronic bar codes. Without the database for the code for the thing it has no meaning.

The Wiry Irishman
July 29, 2011, 04:51 PM
It is an inventory tracking and control mechanism for manufacturers, not some hideous shadow government conspiracy.

This.

I mean seriously, this is nothing to get worked up over. The gun industry is lagging decades behind other industries as far as lean manufacturing, supply chain management, and most other modern manufacturing techniques that increase quality and reduce manufacturing time and price. I for one am actually happy to see a gun company actually embracing new methods.

And I'm not sure people understand how RFID tags work. Its pretty much just a bar code you can read electronically without a direct sight line. There's two types, passive and active. Active ones run on an internal power source, and constantly broadcast the information that's stored on it. These are fairly expensive, and not often implemented in bulk. Passive RFID tags are much cheaper, as little a nickel a piece if you buy enough of them at once, and they draw their power from the RF frequencies emitted by the readers. The guns would have to be using passive tags, because active are way more expensive and their power supply is finite. You can't store much data on a passive tag, so if some bizarro-world tech ninja that some people seem to be afraid of is going to go wandering the streets with an RFID reader and gets a hit from your gun, he's more than likely going to end up with a random string of numbers and letters that only means anything to Chiappa supply chain management. They won't know you have a gun. Your gun isn't going to be emitting some constant tracking signal the government and the new world order can intercept, its going to have a tiny string of data only accessible to someone physically close with a compatible reader. And if someone is able to read the little string of data, and then are magically able to discern that it means you have a gun, honestly, what are they going to do?

481
July 29, 2011, 04:53 PM
If they (RFIDs) offend they can be removed easily per the manufacturer's instructions.

I wonder if people got this worked up when serial numbers on firearms became mandatory. Serial numbers are much harder to remove (it is also a highly illegal act, so don't try it) and screw up the appearance of a fine gun (IMO) whereas the little RFIDs don't since they can be removed with ease.

If you don't wanna pry 'em off, just a few seconds (which won't hurt the gun) in a cheap kitchen counter-top microwave will kill 'em pretty easily, too, since they are rather fragile devices.

kurt1305
July 29, 2011, 04:54 PM
I think they are designed to help those with large inventories track maintenance. HK puts them in several of their models IIRC.

USAF_Vet
July 29, 2011, 04:55 PM
As said, I make my living in inventory control. RFID tags typically are included in easy to reach but internal places. Friend of mine had a crossman 1911 CO2 pistol for years. When it broke, it made it's way to my stepson, who just wanted it as a toy. I took it apart to take the guts out, and lo and behold, I found an RFID tag inside the grips. Not a big deal. The chips aren't going to have critical information programed into them. If someone pings you with an RFID scanner, odds are unless they have the codes Chippa will use, all they will know if that you have something with an RFID chip. They will not know you have a Chippa Rhino, serial # XXXXX, manufactured xx/xx/xxxx, distributed to XXX and sold to XXX. RFID chips are mass produced and preprogramed with a scarcity of trival information for those who are not on the product line.

Tin foil hats indeed.

M-Cameron
July 29, 2011, 04:57 PM
How are these things being installed? Some RFID chips can be implanted in polymer frames as they are being molded. Kinda hard to simply pry them out if that is the case. While I know the Chiappa guns aren't polymer framed, doesn't mean that they don't put it someplace very difficult to access.


RFID Removal: For those still concerned you can simply remove the grip and remove the hot glued RFID from the frame in the grip area when (over a year from now) these begin to appear. Others may prefer to wrap the revolver and their head in aluminum foil, curl in a ball and watch reruns of Mel Gibson's 1997 film, Conspiracy Theory. Well, that's a plan too!


they are simply hot glued in......pretty easy to remove

Bozwell
July 29, 2011, 04:59 PM
Baby steps M-Cam. something seen as a "good idea" can spread like gangrene.

A lawsuit in the right place blaming the lack of a chip for a gun's illegal travels as a gang-banger gun could very well institute these sorts of practices industry wide. Imagine being charged with a felony for disabling the chip 10 years down the line.

And it's true, while not as pervasive as shoplifters, muggers, mail thieves... It's a growing industry, and as we adapt with our technology, such crimes will adapt as we do.

Doesn't the "slippery slope" argument ever get old? If I eat half a cookie this afternoon, I could develop an eating disorder, and in 6 months be eating 2 boxes of cookies a day. In 2 years, I could be dead from a heart attack due to my cookie addiction. I went over the speed limit on one road this morning on the way to work. If I keep speeding more and more and more, I could lose my license in a year or die in a wreck caused by reckless driving.

Or... I could occasionally eat a cookie and not suffer from it. Likewise, I could speed where it's safe and at worst get the occasional ticket. Point being, you don't know, and the fact that one thing happened does not mean that it will continue to happen again and again in the future at an ever increasing rate. My $0.02, but repeating this weak argument over and over just hurts the credibility of all firearm supporters.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that RFID tags are a good idea or even that Chiappa is making the right move. I'm just saying that just because you give an inch, it does not mean you will have to give a mile in the future.

If you don't like it, don't buy it, and let Chiappa decide whether their RFID tags are worth it.

CoRoMo
July 29, 2011, 05:03 PM
The chips aren't going to have critical information programed into them. If someone pings you with an RFID scanner, odds are unless they have the codes Chippa will use, all they will know if that you have something with an RFID chip. They will not know you have a Chippa Rhino...
This answers my question. Thanks.

What's shocking is the level of chatter on the internet about this specific story. Google around and all you get is gun forums and survival forums talking it up. I couldn't even locate a true press release from Chiappa as is being claimed. I'm sure it's true, but all you get when you search around are the hysterical discussions.

chhodge69
July 29, 2011, 05:03 PM
I don't wear my gun on my head - I'm getting a tinfoil holster!

481
July 29, 2011, 05:04 PM
I think they are designed to help those with large inventories track maintenance. HK puts them in several of their models IIRC.

Kinda curious....where are they mounting them in the HKs?

M-Cameron
July 29, 2011, 05:07 PM
Kinda curious....where are they mounting them in the HKs?

apparently in the backstrap

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=5&f=29&t=107188

USAF_Vet
July 29, 2011, 05:09 PM
Also worth noting, is that unless the RFID scanner is scanning on the appropriate frequency, the scanner won't ping anything at all. The RFID chip only bounces back a signal if it receives the correct frequency.

N003k
July 29, 2011, 05:10 PM
Also keep in mind how many other things you probably own with RFID tags on them.

I work at JCPenney personally, and soon EVERYTHING we sell will have an RFID tag attached for inventory tracking and floor restocking ease. I'm not quite sure where they intend to place them on any given item, but I'd guess many will be on the product itself, rather than packaging or a removable tag. So, even if they DID go around scanning for RFID chips...they might not know if they're picking up your shirt, shoes, belt, or gun.

CoRoMo
July 29, 2011, 05:13 PM
...track maintenance.
Like running a VIN through Carfax.com? You could 'CarFax' a used pistol and see how many times it has been back to Chiappa or the local smith. That's great. Eventually, you could get the number of times it has been bought and sold through FFLs because I'm sure they will soon be required to scan all used trades and such.

;)

481
July 29, 2011, 05:14 PM
apparently in the backstrap

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=5&f=29&t=107188
Thanks, Cam. :)

fyurstarter
July 29, 2011, 05:19 PM
I'm sure that the idea of posted speed limits and radar guns would have seemed absolutely ridiculous to the folks purchasing Model A Fords back when they were new. The real issue is that if you really feel like the government and government officials would misuse a potentially intrusive technology like RFID to oppress your rights, then it's time to start taking care of the root issue and vote to get more honest politicians, campaign for honest politicians, and hold your officials accountable for their words and actions.
I don't think the RFID chip embedded in a firearm is a good idea and looking at the long term perspective....could be potentially harmful to the privacy rights of firearms owners, BUT with dishonest folks....if it's not RFID it'll be another concept or another policy that takes the place of RFID.

FROGO207
July 29, 2011, 05:21 PM
The only thing that would cause great worry would be giving the ATF access to the database/specs of production runs. WalMart and all use RFID tags to stop theft on $5 and $10 items that are popular. There are so many items out there now with them that I would think that the stream of numbers when one scans around would only confuse the crap out of someone. Also they can be disabled with a small magnetic field so what's the need for tinfoil hats anyway just go and buy an electromagnet. Problem solved.:D

CoRoMo
July 29, 2011, 05:30 PM
These are the things that trigger the theft alarm at the entrance of large retail stores, right?

M-Cameron
July 29, 2011, 05:32 PM
These are the things that trigger the theft alarm at the entrance of large retail stores, right?

yes

Zundfolge
July 29, 2011, 07:51 PM
The time to complain and react to these sorts of things is BEFORE they become the norm.
Too late.

If you own a car manufactured in the last decade you likely have dozens if not hundreds of RFID tags all over your car. Same thing goes for kitchen appliances.

If you're worried that Chiappa will give the folk in DC ideas well I hate to break it to you but they already HAD these ideas LONG ago.

This isn't the same thing as locks or "user id" technology put on the gun by government pressure. This is simply modern industrial inventory control.

EddieNFL
July 29, 2011, 08:00 PM
The time to complain and react to these sorts of things is BEFORE they become the norm.

This is more of a reactive board.

Zoogster
July 29, 2011, 08:18 PM
M-Cameron said: I don't see what the bIg deal is........because some hacker with a boat load of custom equipment and a pringles can-tenna might find out you have a gun from 300' away...?


The big deal is not that person, but the businesses that installs them in doorways, throughout buildings, and can read them.
Concealed won't mean concealed when everyone knows who has firearms because they learn how to use the RFID readers already set up to see who is carrying guns.
You think you can carry in most businesses now, unless asked to leave, just wait until they know you are carrying concealed because your RFID tells them.
The stronger the RFID signal used, the further away they can be read, generally the FCC has limitations on strength of such products, but you could certainly have special law enforcement exemptions with power levels to scan an entire home for example in the future.
Directional antennas can also read them from further away with less power.

M-Cameron said: they are simply hot glued in......pretty easy to remove

Until it becomes a standard, and the standard results in laws against removal.
A serial number was just a way for manufacturers to keep track of their own products originally too.
Then serial numbers, originally just a method of the manufacturer keeping track of their own product, became mandatory, and a crime to remove.
The Bradys and antis could be asking 'Why would anyone need to disable their RFID, scratch off a serial number, or make it harder to keep track of such firearms unless they have something to hide.'

CoRoMo said: These are the things that trigger the theft alarm at the entrance of large retail stores, right?

No these are things that you can implant into a pet, child, etc that can be read any time in the future, like if the pet or child gets lost they can scan it with a small device at a shelter or vet. They are essentially a serial number that can be read remotely, and even secretly with a radio frequency.
Originally they were used more as just a bar code to keep track of inventory, but new purposes are becoming widespread.
More and more places are installing them for a variety of purposes throughout buildings.
For example they have started putting them in some things like credit cards and putting readers within individual isles in stores that record how long the person it there and that the person walked by. This allows the business to tell where specific people go, and where they are spending their time.
The business can then know their market, what they are doing, and better adjust themselves to sell more products to the consumer.
They can keep track of which businesses different people go into, who went past different readers or remained in range for how long, who passed wherever they decide to put the readers or install them. The readers are not even noticed, because they can and are put inside anything, or built into things.
That is how some corporations have begun to use them, they of course can be used in even more devious ways.
They also use them for automated toll booths, gas payments, and similar things, keeping track of anytime the RFID chip goes by.
For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_toll_collection
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/EZPass_how_to.PNG

These readers are already being placed for purposes as I explained above, and anyone can use that existing infrastructure to track people or items that also have RFID tags in them for other purposes as well.
The RFID chips don't need a power source or a battery and last indefinitely, the reader provides the power in the radio signal.

I could go into additional examples but don't want to make the post too long.


The time to complain and react to these sorts of things is BEFORE they become the norm.
Exactly, you can stop it when it is new, don't buy their products, make the industry choose not to follow that route.
Once it becomes standard it becomes harder to fight, then some politicians pass a bill making it a crime not to have them or to remove them, no different than serial numbers. (However serial numbers cannot be read remotely.)
As well as laws improving on them, like law requiring firearm ID tags to have certain specific information about the firearm in them if not already included, or an industry standard format.

At that point it is an uphill battle, how hard do you think it would be to remove the serial number requirement today?

Dnaltrop
July 29, 2011, 08:42 PM
Inventory control is for the manufacturer, to the point of sale. It is NOT a permanent feature that enhances the functioning of a given sidearm.

I don't need a scanner to know what guns I own.

While each RFID does operate on it's own frequency, it's not hard to modulate your output to find whatever is near. Once you know those frequencies, the Serial number you get back on that specific frequency, even if it's a string of numbers, gives it's identity by reacting on that frequency itself.

If folks don't see the issue with a microchip that can be keyed to broadcast your possessions to anyone with the tools, do you also have no problem with the elimination of a per-gallon gas tax, and the introduction of small GPS that tracks your travels to report back to the state for tax purposes?

I promise the database, your travels, the elapsed time will never eventually be used to enforce speeding tickets.

tntwatt
July 29, 2011, 08:47 PM
For all you who are justifying this and thinking it's "no big deal"....ARE YOU ALL INSANE?
This tech is already used for cars on toll roads.....If it can be used to check your vehicle doing 50mph then why couldn't it be used to track which vehicles have firearms? This is a good idea for production facilities but horrible for gun owners.... It would only take one extra step to associate you with your RFID weapon.

As some of you are so proud to point out, the tech is already everywhere....very simple to cross over to complete control and tracking of every firearm everywhere............

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 29, 2011, 08:50 PM
I think the prices of my guns would go up if sold with the bold words: PRE-RFID!

jlott00
July 29, 2011, 09:03 PM
M-Cameron

in·cre·men·tal·ism   
[in-kruh-men-tl-iz-uhm, ing-]
–noun
a policy of making changes, especially social changes, by degrees; gradualism.

no nothing will happen....not for a while...not till more and more companies start adding rfid chips..then when a cop foils a huge "plan to kill hundreds" by detecting a rfid chip on all there guns..then "Only terrorist wont want rfid chips"..you get the point and see how easy it is to manipulate people..slowly ....try looking down the road in years and decades... rather then 2 weeks..

M-Cameron
July 29, 2011, 09:24 PM
you guys have me convinced....

...not that the Govt is going to require these and use them to track our every move.....


but that i should start up my tinfoil holster business...

im currently taking orders
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii196/TMSNPR/IMAG0079.jpg
ive got 3 sizes....small, medium, and large...
price is $45+ shipping



Honestly people....calm down.

not everything is a govt conspiracy to get your guns....

goodness, HK has been doing this for a number of years.....weve yet to see any RFID mandate from the Govt.

this is strictly an inventory aid.......there has not been ANY talk of using them to track guns....

and until there is....there is no need to freak out.

Dnaltrop
July 29, 2011, 09:26 PM
M-Cam... it's not just about the government tracking the guns. they know what we have.

It's the open broadcast to ANYONE with the time and access to a RadioShack.

Not big brother.... Lil' bastard.

M-Cameron
July 29, 2011, 09:27 PM
It's the open broadcast to ANYONE with the time and access to a RadioShack.

again.......so someone knows you have a gun........what is the problem?

JWF III
July 29, 2011, 09:29 PM
LOTS of manufacturers of LOTS of products use RFID chips to track materials and product through their manufacturing process.

They are NOT some sort of government plot.

They are NOT some sort of tracking device.



Just couldn't help myself there.:neener:

Wyman

Dnaltrop
July 29, 2011, 09:32 PM
You don't see a problem with someone inventorying your home in advance of a B&E?

Really?

Edit.. Consider... The people scanning your home aren't just going to do it "just as a concerned neighbor"

M-Cameron
July 29, 2011, 09:35 PM
You don't see a problem with someone inventorying your home in advance of a B&E?

Really?

apparently they must have gotten some super strong RFID readers.....

...because all the ones i know of cant read through several walls and a steel safe.

Dnaltrop
July 29, 2011, 09:39 PM
Billions can be spent on shielding that can be overcome with a fractional cost of more power. And while you may have all of your guns behind layered steel, not every single person is/will be taking those precautions.

Consider Nushif's recently made stand for his 1911... some folks enjoy displaying their weaponry inside their Den. Unloaded rifles at the back of a closet for someone who can't afford a full sized safe...

Remember, Lowest common denominator. Just because we can be trusted to look after our own ends, does not mean everyone else will in their own homes.

http://www.proxiguard.com/index.php?page=3&product=334233

this company lists their passive rage as 10m.

M-Cameron
July 29, 2011, 09:44 PM
ok...safes aside...

..how many RFID readers out there available to the general public that someone could reasonably afford that can read through a standard wall from approx 30 feet.....?

im going to guess not many.

Dnaltrop
July 29, 2011, 09:48 PM
How long do you think it would take with a set of bolt cutters or a torch to acquire one?

People steal copper wire from active power substations as well.

As this technology progresses, it WILL become more accurate, more powerful.

ULTIMATE PARANOIA MODE -- OH GOD I NEED TO MOVE INTO A BOMB SHELTER, LIVE IN A FARRADAY CAGE, THE GUV'MINT IS GONNA DRIVE DOWN THE STREET AND ACTIVATE ALL THE RFID AS SELF DESTRUCT DEVICES AND DISARM US ALL!!!

See... now THAT is being silly about this :)

M-Cameron
July 29, 2011, 09:54 PM
How long do you think it would take with a set of bolt cutters or a torch to acquire one?

People steal copper wire from active power substations as well.

As this technology progresses, it WILL become more accurate, more powerful.

well then....i suppose its a good thing im now in the tin foil holster business.....

dont forget, im currently taking orders.......10% off to all THR members......

Zundfolge
July 29, 2011, 09:56 PM
M-Cameron

in·cre·men·tal·ism   
[in-kruh-men-tl-iz-uhm, ing-]
–noun
a policy of making changes, especially social changes, by degrees; gradualism.

no nothing will happen....not for a while...not till more and more companies start adding rfid chips..then when a cop foils a huge "plan to kill hundreds" by detecting a rfid chip on all there guns..then "Only terrorist wont want rfid chips"..you get the point and see how easy it is to manipulate people..slowly ....try looking down the road in years and decades... rather then 2 weeks..

So were you this freaked out in 68 when the government started to require that guns have *gasp* SERIAL NUMBERS! ... just look how quickly they moved from that to RFID chips tracking our precious bodily fluids!



Look folks, ALCOA is trending down! Should be a bargain! You'll make a mint! (http://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NYSE:AA)

Dnaltrop
July 29, 2011, 09:56 PM
Don't forget the grounding chain of paperclips to go from the cuff of the pants to the ground.... add as an accessory.. in multiple colors!

people always forget to ground their Tinfoil armor.

yeahbuddy
July 29, 2011, 09:58 PM
I mostly have a problem with the condescending tone of the company about the issue. Even if your customers are wrong you still have to cater to them if you want them to buy your product. Tin foil hats? They don't have to be such a-holes about it.

I think the Rhino seems pretty cool but I would think twice about buying one of them now.

bk42261
July 29, 2011, 10:00 PM
Where did this story originally come from?
If the original "storyteller" actually could use the English language, I might be more concerned. These days, you can put anything out there to cause panic, but if the first report is written so badly, I don't pay all that much attention to it.
There are an awful lot of organizations around who would like to throw out red herrings so that we miss the important movesw.

Dnaltrop
July 29, 2011, 10:02 PM
This came from the Italian language announcement from Chiappa in Italy.

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 29, 2011, 10:04 PM
Do they come with leather liners? Because I don't want to scratch the finish on my tracking devi...GUN! when I'm out and about.

lono
July 29, 2011, 10:19 PM
Would removing this RFID chip be illegal? Before the flames begin, it is illegal to alter/remove serial numbers. I do not think it would be a far stretch to consider an internal RFID as a electronic serial number. I personally would prefer that my firearms not include an internal RFID. If they are used from inventory I have no problem with them be attached to the gun before sale.

M-Cameron
July 29, 2011, 10:22 PM
Would removing this RFID chip be illegal? Before the flames begin, it is illegal to alter/remove serial numbers. I do not think it would be a far stretch to consider an internal RFID as a electronic serial number. I personally would prefer that my firearms not include an internal RFID. If they are used from inventory I have no problem with them be attached to the gun before sale

not illegal at all.....there are no laws requiring firearms to have RFID tags........these have nothing to do with serial numbers...they are not used to track guns.........they only serve as an inventory aide......no different than removing the RFID tag from anything else(CDs, toaster ovens, TVs, clothing, ect).

the company even said if you dont want it....simply remove it.

lono
July 29, 2011, 10:26 PM
not illegal at all.....there are no laws requiring firearms to have RFID tags........these have nothing to do with serial numbers...they are not used to track guns.........they only serve as an inventory aide......no different than removing the RFID tag from anything else(CDs, toaster ovens, TVs, clothing, ect).

the company even said if you dont want it....simply remove it.
I agree with you at this time. What I am thinking about is when the ATF decides to call a RFID chip part of the serial number and use the old law that is already in place to enforce leaving RFID chips intact.

M-Cameron
July 29, 2011, 10:33 PM
I agree with you at this time. What I am thinking about is when the ATF decides to call a RFID chip part of the serial number and use the old law that is already in place to enforce leaving RFID chips intact.

the only serial number that matters is the one etched into the receiver..

....any other number on any other part makes no difference.....and can be changed....removed....or altered as much as you wish.....this would include any number stored on the RFID

357 Terms
July 29, 2011, 11:08 PM
A big problem for me personally about being a gun nut is the rabid paranoia some of my interest inclined peers posses; sometimes its embarrASSingly STUPID!

16shells
July 29, 2011, 11:32 PM
Since this is the most comical thread I have read recently, the imp in me feels the need to keep it going.

Being one who is very protective of my privacy, I probably think about guarding my personal information more than most. If I were to rank order my privacy worries, I would put RFIDs way below worries about someone rummaging through my garbage.

MistWolf
July 29, 2011, 11:37 PM
Let me see... No Sporting Purpose, UN Small Arms Control Treaty, Extreme Magazine Capacity Limits, FOIP Cards and now RFID Chips. Yep, adds up to "Don't Worry, Be Happy"....

wally
July 30, 2011, 12:10 AM
I wonder if their RFID chips will work better than their guns.

My experience with their 1911-22 and poor excuse for warranty service leave me zero chance of ever trying anything else from them!

Dnaltrop
July 30, 2011, 12:35 AM
There is a stark difference between realism and paranoia 357... but as the thread is beginning to degenerate into name calling, however WELL hidden and intellectual it is.... :rolleyes:

If you just want to be insulting, plenty of other places for it Neighbor, or you could add substantively to the conversation instead.

Mods, Time to shut this one down for a decade or so until this either expands or ceases and the battle of "I told you so" commences.

Onward Allusion
July 30, 2011, 12:41 AM
..how many RFID readers out there available to the general public that someone could reasonably afford that can read through a standard wall from approx 30 feet.....?

Tech becomes inexpensive. Years ago, cell phone signal blockers were thousands of dollars. I now can get one for $29. I'm not even going to go into what evil things that can be done with this little tool.

RFID scanners with range are somewhat expensive for the low level criminal, but how long do you think it will be before it gets inexpensive and powerful enough to scan a house from the sidewalk? How about scanning a potential victim to determine whether they are armed and can fight back?

Keep in mind, this isn't even addressing the possible RKBA infringement.

The Wiry Irishman
July 30, 2011, 01:19 AM
Seriously people? Let's assume its a simple thing to read RFID tags from far away. Let's even assume there's a smartphone ap that can read RFID tags through walls from across the street. So what? Its inventory control, it'll just be a code Chiappa uses. They're not going to be publishing their database, so for a criminal to even know its a gun, they'd have to go to a gun store, scan a ton of Chiappa revolvers, do pattern analysis on them and reverse engineer what the code means. Then cruise around town in hopes of getting a hit on one. Let's say its the serial number on the RFID, again, so what? How is anyone going to know that random string of numbers and letters means gun? And even if they do, they're going to have to find that number amongst the massive sea of hits they're going to get from all the random stuff in your house with an RFID tag. This seems like a ton of work to figure out someone has a gun and go steal it. It would be way easier to say, park outside a gun store and follow customers home, or just break into houses that look nice and steal everything. This is seriously a total non-issue.

Dnaltrop
July 30, 2011, 01:43 AM
Irishman... RFID tags use different frequencies for each company.

That is why there are competing companies selling ID chips for your pets... if your lost pet is found by a pound that has the wrong reader, Fido's chip is worthless, and he gets adopted out, or put to sleep.

Take an above average heroin addicted Techie, he has to scan ONE gun, or even simply read the number out of one of the MANY hacker websites and boards across the world. That frequency keys to the chip for that manufacturer/classification of product

He has a string of numbers, that corresponds to a classification . They may not know what you have down to the model, but they will get a generic gun response.

People hack the ps3,the Sony networks, banks, the pentagon, congress.... a commonly owned RFID chip is likely a joke to them.

NEVER underestimate the ingenuity of someone desperate for their next fix, or just out for kicks.

hemiram
July 30, 2011, 02:00 AM
I have to say, the amount of paranoia on gun forums worries me sometimes, and this is one of them. Wayyyyyy over the top folks.

Evergreen
July 30, 2011, 02:02 AM
Being a software developer, I know it is only a matter of time, before thugs can get their hands on RFID firearm tracking devices. You don't have to be a hotshot hacker to develop a tool that can be used by criminals. Just imagine 20 years from now, all guns have RFID chips in them. Now on the black market, there can be devices used to sense or identify RFID chips around them. THis can give a potential criminal or threat the heads-up that you have a firearm on you. In a lot of ways, it will give them the upperhand. Sure, this may not sound feasible now, but anything is possible in the future. I don't like the idea. If anyone should put a tracking device in a gun, it should be me and it should be specially encoded and encrypted so that only I have access to it.

I am sorry, but I don't want any tracking device on my gun, PERIOD!! Yes, this can be very bad..

danprkr
July 30, 2011, 03:19 AM
I don't care much one way or the other about the chip. I would probably remove it just out of principal. My annoyance though is at the tone they take towards their presumed customer. If I'm such a nut job they don't need my money.

Cryogaijin
July 30, 2011, 08:06 AM
Sounds like something Project Gunrunner could have used more of.

hardluk1
July 30, 2011, 08:29 AM
Some people seem to feel like every one is out to gain a upper hand on them. If a person can scan your gun can't they also scan your debit/credit cards. Now thats a real worry. Put aluminum foil around your cards in your wallet, now. If that chip with the push of a majic button could stop my pistol from fireing when needed then that something to worry about. Oh no, I just gave the crac pots some thing else to fear. Imbedded chips that can stop firearm from working. hehehehe

Southern Rebel
July 30, 2011, 08:41 AM
I think I understand - if I steal a valuable dog (that likely has a chip), all I gotta do is microwave the pooch to kill the chip and I have an untraceable, albeit slightly roasted, new pet! Technology is awesome..........

M-Cameron
July 30, 2011, 09:41 AM
your peoples whole argument is that someday the technology might improve enough that its only a matter of pressing a button and a heroine addict will have an inventory of all my guns......

i guess you should also start painting your house with lead paint in case they ever invent portable x-ray vision......technology is advancing soo fast no a days.... you cant be too careful.


as for your govt mandates..........crackpot ideal like this have been proposed before.....and every time they have been shot down....

we have more pressing issues to deal with right now than what the govt MIGHT require in 20 years.

Apple a Day
July 30, 2011, 09:42 AM
Anybody remember microstamping? Wasn't it Massachussets or California that mandated microstamping bullets by law as soon as the technology becomes available?
Remember "smart gun" technology that the anti's were pushing? Fingerprint recognition and the magnetic ring to enable/disable the trigge?
Stupid to mandate a technology that doesn't work yet, right?
RFID's are already in use. Nobody on the other side has figured out that they can be used to remotely ping a gun yet. It's a matter of time. All the guys saying ,"Oh, it's no big deal now," need to pick up a copy of The Art of War and read what it says about stopping a problem before it actually becomes a problem. You guys must really suck at chess.
...or you can make some more cutesy pictures of guns wrapped in aluminum foil.

M-Cameron
July 30, 2011, 10:22 AM
well if thats the case....i strongly suggest you write your senators and representatives and let them know you strongly oppose any future RFID bill....

while your at it....let them know your stance on mixing uranium ore into polymer frames so guns can be found with a Geiger counter..

ammo with a 10 year shelf life....

GPS trackers in guns....

....or any other technology that might somehow be used in a gun.....

...or you can make some more cutesy pictures of guns wrapped in aluminum foil.

you can call it cute now.....i call it an investment.... dont come begging to me for one in 20 years.....

Onward Allusion
July 30, 2011, 01:17 PM
hardluk1 (http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=93885)
Some people seem to feel like every one is out to gain a upper hand on them. If a person can scan your gun can't they also scan your debit/credit cards. Now thats a real worry. Put aluminum foil around your cards in your wallet, now. If that chip with the push of a majic button could stop my pistol from fireing when needed then that something to worry about. Oh no, I just gave the crac pots some thing else to fear. Imbedded chips that can stop firearm from working. heheheheGot news for you. They already do sell metal wallets. If you don't want the bulk, there are sleeves that prevent RFID lifting from your credit cards. As for a gun that can be disabled remotely, they have the technology and there has been beta testing on this.

My suggestion for all those who rather ignore and make light (and I'm being kind here) of those who are concern and knowledgeable on such matters is to do a little research.

Still don't believe in the potential? Go and drill off your serial number on one of your guns and tell the ATF what you did. I'm guessing there were those back in 1968 that said "We've had serial numbers on most of our guns any way, so what's the big deal?!". The big deal is that once it becomes widely accepted by the general public AND require by law, it is almost impossible to turn the clock back.

Dnaltrop
July 30, 2011, 01:37 PM
Hardluk... people are already scanning cards... They get a hold of the cheap, short-range Point of Sale units and wander around harvesting them. Haven't you seen the recent rash of aluminum hard case wallets being hyped in commercials, or the sudden stop to advertising of the Key-fob credit cards?

Mythbusters was going to do this "myth" and in their meeting with Texas Instruments, every lawyer for the major credit card companies was there to menace the Discovery channel out of even the thought. I placed that link earlier in this discussion.

Southern Rebel... you just made me spit-take my coffee. Congratulations. :)


Finally for anyone who wants to make the Govt argument about scanning peoples homes, it's already been decided that the use of an external detection device to "search" someone's home is not allowable . This use of technology was decided in Kyllo VS the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyllo_v._United_States

In the dissent, it was discussed that remotely searching someone's house without a warrant could be allowable as the technology for thermal imaging, or other methods became more commonly available to the general public.

20 years ago you could still pick up Cell phone coversations with a standard police scanner in the 900 mhz range.

Craigslist brought about the clearing of people's entire houses by another person posting to come take everything.

http://www.komonews.com/news/6888002.html

"TACOMA, Wash. - The ad on Craigslist invited people to help themselves to anything at a woman's house in Tacoma. But the woman who owns the house wasn't the one who posted the ad"

Social networks brought about the Burglar who trolls the net looking for people who post their presence away from their homes as a way to find empty targets.

http://pleaserobme.com/ (now no longer posting empty houses)

Technology evolves faster than many of us can keep abreast of. Maybe we just have a higher grade of Tweeker with all of the tech companies in the NW.

16shells
July 30, 2011, 06:36 PM
If someone wanted addresses of likely gun owners, wouldn't it be easier to just hack the database of the NRA, or Buds, or Midway USA,.....

Monsterbishi
July 30, 2011, 06:54 PM
IMO, it's not a issue at all, Chiappa are being open about the inclusion of the RFIDs, of which, the data held therin is simply of no use to anyone without having very intimate knowledge of the companies databases to even recognize that the number they have scanned is even related to firearms and not a kids schoolbag, door card for someones office, keyless entry fobs, a cardboard box that had bulk snack food in it, or even Fido, your pet of many years.

Worrying about what govt agency might be driving past your house in a van scanning for what weapons you have is somewhat moot too, you've probably just paid for it electronically anyway, along with the ammo, accessories, and just for good measure - mentioned it multiple times on a massive firearms related forum, probably with pictures on imageshack or photobucket to boot.

Who has access to ECHELON - Now that's something for the foil hat brigade to worry about...

EddieNFL
July 30, 2011, 06:55 PM
i guess you should also start painting your house with lead paint in case they ever invent portable x-ray vision

The government banned lead based paint for that very reason.

Neverwinter
July 30, 2011, 07:09 PM
i guess you should also start painting your house with lead paint in case they ever invent portable x-ray vision The government banned lead based paint for that very reason.
I can't tell if this is supposed to be satire or not.

Dnaltrop
July 30, 2011, 07:19 PM
Monster, you seem to have missed the point expressed repeatedly...

The govt here is not allowed to search your house without a warrant...in person, or electronically. that isn't the issue. This is NOT about the government being able to track us. they can do that just fine with a search of your phone records to see what towers your phone has been pinging.

It's the broadcast of your personal belongings to those with the will and access to pick it out of the air. "may happen" has passed, RFID is being used today by the more creative and technologically savvy criminals here in the US TODAY.

"intimate" knowledge today is only as secure as the weakest link in a chain.

Edit... And welcome to The High Road As well Neighbor.

pinstripe
July 30, 2011, 07:33 PM
This reminds me of when I was a kid and bar scanning was just being introduced onto packaging. There were many folks that said that this is the mark of the beast and it was evil. I hear the same type of over zealous panic about this. Just calm down and take a few deep breaths and then you will come to the same conclusion that I already have..........




THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING !!!!!!!!!!!:what::what::what:

In all reality the Chiappa line of firearms are just to damned ugly for me to ever spend money on anyhow!:D

FROGO207
July 30, 2011, 08:35 PM
If they wanted to the electric co could put a reader into their service equipment that is always on and monitoring your service and sell the mined data to whomever for that need they have. We would not need to be made aware of this. Anyone with a clearance level of say SS3 or below could gain access as needed for example. Btw the RFID tags on merchandise are erased when you leave the store or the theft alarms will sound when passing you know. The individual has seen nothing as far as how we can be tracked so far. Stand by and pay attention.:eek::D In the not too distant future we will go to work, go shopping, and take time off with the act of just participating being monitored by a means that will need no currency just our presence to be valid. Automatic income taxes, payments, punishment and such and such.:D just wait a few years.

Just noticed this is post 1776 how ironic.

Toaster
July 30, 2011, 11:42 PM
Gee..if the gubmint had "chipped" all them Gitmo detainees afore lettin' em loose, they'd know where all them terrorrists are at all the time, jus like they gonna know wuz up with all my "chipped" guns all the time. If it's as simple and effective as so many people here claim.
BTW, M-Cameron, I need three shoulder holsters all anodized in sky blue!

xjsnake
July 30, 2011, 11:49 PM
This video is three years old. Be sure to watch it to the end and listen carefully to the guy's parting comments...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmajlKJlT3U&feature=related

JTHunter
July 31, 2011, 01:44 AM
Zundfolge - you say:LOTS of manufacturers of LOTS of products use RFID chips to track materials and product through their manufacturing process.
They are NOT some sort of tracking device.

Uh, you can't have it both ways.

Actually, they ARE tracking devices, but is a passive way. They do NOT transmit any info and (so far) can only react when a compatible reader is close enough to induce a tiny electric current that makes the chip readable, normally, less than 3-5 feet.

Cearbhall
July 31, 2011, 02:01 AM
Why did they first put serial numbers on guns? What happens if you are caught nowadays with a gun having no serial number? Could the same happen with RFID chips?

Radagast
July 31, 2011, 09:19 AM
Roughly 5 years ago Computer Science Corp. was asked by the Australian Federal Govt. to look into the requirements to be able to RFID chip all guns in the country. So far nothing has come of it, but the idea is obviously out there in the mind set of the gun confiscation movement.
I would take Chiappa's idea as a serious threat to liberty. Not because of any imediate effect, but because it provides a building block for further gun confiscation in the future.

S&W was successfully boycotted by shooters for signing up to the Clinton gun control agenda. I personally will not purchase any Chiappa product in the future because of this. I'll probably be buying a GSG 1911 .22lr in the near future, if I do I'll forward a range report to Chiappa along with short note as to why I rejected their product.

Radagast
July 31, 2011, 09:28 AM
Cearbhall:
Serial numbers have appeared on guns from the 1860s at least. S&W serial numbered all of their production.
The gun control act of 1968 made it unlawful to possess a gun with the serial number removed:
"(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce."

buck460XVR
July 31, 2011, 10:27 AM
So, if the chip easily removed, and it is legal to do, why the concern? Because big brother might get the idea from Chiappa to monitor all our firearms? Sorry, but big brother already thought of it. Maybe.......Because there is such a market for stolen Chiappa firearms that thugs will go to extreme expense and effort to find and steal the few that are really out there? I guess the best thing to do would be to remove the chip and throw it away.

This thread reminds me of an old Black Sabbath tune...........Paranoid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aIhh9nFYv4)

PavePusher
July 31, 2011, 04:56 PM
LOTS of manufacturers of LOTS of products use RFID chips to track materials and product through their manufacturing process.

They are NOT some sort of government plot.

They are NOT some sort of tracking device.


I guess now would be a good time to buy Alcoa stock. :rolleyes:
The government generally doesn't care to track small consumable items. Can you guarantee the same will hold for firearms?

Quiet
July 31, 2011, 05:10 PM
FYI.
H&K and SIG have been embeding RFIDs into their firearms for several (3+) years now.


H&K P2000 RFID
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2377/2196256484_ff0c23b758.jpg

hardluk1
July 31, 2011, 05:52 PM
onward & Dnaltrop I KNOW THAT . Just makeing lite of the people that go to extremes worry'n about every thing. This type for info chip is not new ,been around of decades.

Yukonstorm
July 31, 2011, 06:42 PM
These chips are in the tires of the car you drive. Does this mean you'll start walking more?

Dnaltrop
July 31, 2011, 07:02 PM
You don't hide your car tires in the back of your closet, do you?

Concealed Tire permit perhaps?

Apples and Oranges neighbor. Tires are consumable objects, generally kept in plain sight.

Edit. Lets say your "Anti" employer doesn't need to know about the pistol you keep in your glovebox because it's presence inside your workplace would get you terminated on the spot. Sure you can refuse to let them search , but with the majority of jobs in the US being "at will" you can be fired for no reason whatsoever without explanation.

buck460XVR
July 31, 2011, 07:59 PM
.

Edit. Lets say your "Anti" employer doesn't need to know about the pistol you keep in your glovebox because it's presence inside your workplace would get you terminated on the spot. Sure you can refuse to let them search , but with the majority of jobs in the US being "at will" you can be fired for no reason whatsoever without explanation.

Maybe in that case, since it's so easy and simple to do, you could remove the chip and stick it somewhere on the boss's car. ;)

Dnaltrop
July 31, 2011, 08:02 PM
Brilliant idea Neighbor. :D

ObsidianOne
July 31, 2011, 08:21 PM
My question is why?
For inventory purposes? DVDs use them? Yeah, IN THE CASE, not in the DVD itself. Sounds like they're up to something, not sure what, but something.
Regardless, not on my list of guns to buy as of now, especially after mocking people being concerned about their safety and privacy. Big no-no.

M-Cameron
July 31, 2011, 08:25 PM
My question is why?
For inventory purposes? DVDs use them? Yeah, IN THE CASE, not in the DVD itself. Sounds like they're up to something, not sure what, but something.
Regardless, not on my list of guns to buy as of now, especially after mocking people being concerned about their safety and privacy. Big no-no.


"Basically Chiappa RFID (again it is radio frequency identification) assists the manufacturing process, inventory control and shipping. The type of information on the RFID ties in the firearm and proof house verification; the latter is required by the Italian Government for all firearms made in Italy. Passive RFID is also a final check that verifies that what is inside the sealed box is the same thing as shown on the box exterior bar code during shipping. Now, it will no longer be necessary to open/inspect hundreds of boxes by hand prior to packing in export containers"

thats why.....

also...you cant put an RFID in/on a CD....its physically impossible......the CD will no longer work.

but have you checked clothing, electronics, ect.......all have the RFID tags on/inside them.

Millwright
July 31, 2011, 08:38 PM
Like all other sorts of technology - and firearms FTM - the evil lies in intent of the user. I'm sure these chips make the mfgs life dealing with various government agencies and tax collectors a lot more efficient. Not to mention a lot less prone to dispute with every bureaucrat's territory they must cross.

But, if you're paranoid, you can remove the bugger ! >MW

azmjs
August 1, 2011, 01:15 AM
Paranoia is gun owners' greatest enemy, and hubris works against us all.

It's very easy to say you're against Political Correctness, but only really to be against a certain kind of political correctness. The hurtful remarks in question are not "politically correct" to the politics of gun enthusiasm. Remember that getting offended about this isn't any different than any other case you've ever heard of where an interest group feels offended by something.

Not buying a gun because your feelings got hurt by a distributor's very insightful joke is a disheartening triumph of style-over-substance thinking.

While it probably wasn't a good business decision, given the thin-skinned fickleness displayed by so many in Chiappa's market, it was a courageous thing for them to say.

The truth sometimes hurts.

I have been thinking about buying a Chiappa Rhino, and this is something I will take into consideration, very favorably, when I finally decide whether to.

I am in favor of efficiency, and putting RFID tags in products to make the production process more efficient is something I am unequivocally for.

azmjs
August 1, 2011, 01:32 AM
My question is why?
For inventory purposes? DVDs use them? Yeah, IN THE CASE, not in the DVD itself. Sounds like they're up to something, not sure what, but something.
Regardless, not on my list of guns to buy as of now, especially after mocking people being concerned about their safety and privacy. Big no-no.

It's pretty obvious that the reason they do it is so that they can tell what's in a box without having to open it. I think that's in the article?

It removes a time consuming and entirely unnecessary step from production.

The SN of the gun, and the proof house info should match the box the gun is shipped in. Instead of opening up the box and making a final double-check by hand, an RFID scanner can be used to determine what's in the box without opening it.

RFID should be called "Radio Barcode" because that is all it is.

Onward Allusion
August 1, 2011, 01:49 AM
azmjs
Member
Paranoia is gun owners' greatest enemy, and hubris works against us all.

It's very easy to say you're against Political Correctness, but only really to be against a certain kind of political correctness. The hurtful remarks in question are not "politically correct" to the politics of gun enthusiasm. Remember that getting offended about this isn't any different than any other case you've ever heard of where an interest group feels offended by something.

Not buying a gun because your feelings got hurt by a distributor's very insightful joke is a disheartening triumph of style-over-substance thinking.

While it probably wasn't a good business decision, given the thin-skinned fickleness displayed by so many in Chiappa's market, it was a courageous thing for them to say.

The truth sometimes hurts.

I have been thinking about buying a Chiappa Rhino, and this is something I will take into consideration, very favorably, when I finally decide whether to.

I am in favor of efficiency, and putting RFID tags in products to make the production process more efficient is something I am unequivocally for. Calling fellow gun owners paranoid as a result of them identifying possible and realistic misuse of a technology is self-defeating. The members voicing their concern are not paranoid. These are people who understand and possibly worked with the technology, think bigger picture, and know how it can be misused. To haphazardly throw out the label of paranoia over valid concerns is irresponsible and self-defeating, which is exactly what the antis are wanting - a division among gun owners.

Not buying a gun from a manufacturer that belittles its customers is what a prudent and informed consumer would do. Would you buy products from a company that has a condescending and dismissive attitude toward its customers? Probably not. So why should gun owners be any different?

More power to you for wanting to buy a Chiappa Rhino because of the company's RFID'ing their products in the name of efficiency. However, if efficiency is the company's ultimate goal, then why not tag it externally on the surface of the firearm. Why under the grip? I for one will not be buying the 1911 in 22LR that I had been thinking about not because I think RFID is a bad idea or that some BG or the government is going to scan my house or person in the near future. I will not be buying it because Chiappa management has demonstrated little respect for its potential customers. So, I guess we just zero-summed.

Ignition Override
August 1, 2011, 02:11 AM
FIVETWOSEVEN:
If you like milsurp rifles, maybe you can visit "Joesalter", if not already.
I'm really envious of your proximity: no shipping or FFL costs.

His guns and militaria were built long before computers.

azmjs
August 1, 2011, 04:11 AM
Calling fellow gun owners paranoid as a result of them identifying possible and realistic misuse of a technology is self-defeating. The members voicing their concern are not paranoid. These are people who understand and possibly worked with the technology, think bigger picture, and know how it can be misused. To haphazardly throw out the label of paranoia over valid concerns is irresponsible and self-defeating, which is exactly what the antis are wanting - a division among gun owners.

Not buying a gun from a manufacturer that belittles its customers is what a prudent and informed consumer would do. Would you buy products from a company that has a condescending and dismissive attitude toward its customers? Probably not. So why should gun owners be any different?

More power to you for wanting to buy a Chiappa Rhino because of the company's RFID'ing their products in the name of efficiency. However, if efficiency is the company's ultimate goal, then why not tag it externally on the surface of the firearm. Why under the grip? I for one will not be buying the 1911 in 22LR that I had been thinking about not because I think RFID is a bad idea or that some BG or the government is going to scan my house or person in the near future. I will not be buying it because Chiappa management has demonstrated little respect for its potential customers. So, I guess we just zero-summed.


You have your opinion, and I have mine.

I would gladly buy products from companies that are arrogant, dismissive, rude, or even vulgar.

This is because I don't care about being pandered to, and I don't pay the producers of goods I use to flatter me.

I won't make any bones about it. I think if a person makes his purchasing decisions based on whether or not his feelings have been hurt, then he is a vain and touchy fool with severely incorrect priorities.

Perhaps it all works out. Perhaps these sort of people don't deserve to own quality things, since they don't want quality things, but instead to be made to feel special, or powerful, or important. It is no coincidence that people without self respect have trouble acting respectful to others.

It's just exactly the same as Al Sharpton. "Apologize!"

M-Cameron
August 1, 2011, 09:06 AM
More power to you for wanting to buy a Chiappa Rhino because of the company's RFID'ing their products in the name of efficiency. However, if efficiency is the company's ultimate goal, then why not tag it externally on the surface of the firearm. Why under the grip? I for one will not be buying the 1911 in 22LR that I had been thinking about not because I think RFID is a bad idea or that some BG or the government is going to scan my house or person in the near future. I will not be buying it because Chiappa management has demonstrated little respect for its potential customers. So, I guess we just zero-summed.

...seriously........?

that would go over well.....people would be marring up the finish of their guns trying to get the tag off........

they are placed under the grip.......for the same reason they place the tags inside electronics.........so they dont fall off.

if the tag falls off inside the grip....it stays inside the grip.....and the gun can still be read.........and so you dont have to struggle getting the tag off without ruining the finish on the gun.

if Chiappa was really trying to hide them.....for some devious means......why would they post a public press release telling everyone about them.......and why would they encourage people to remove them if they wanted....?


if Chiappa really had something devious planned......they could easily make a small nook where no one would find, to hide the tags......and not tell anyone about them.

Onward Allusion
August 1, 2011, 09:50 AM
azmjs (http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=48917)
You have your opinion, and I have mine. Opinion - Yes, absolutely and thank G*d that we do, but Al Sharpton??? Where did he come into the picture???

Your opinion is not rational to me. Purchasing from a gun company who applies technology that can be used against its customers and then indirectly panders to the anti-RKBA contingency by ridiculing its customer base does not make sense. Poor marketing at best but it looks to be more like idiocy in management.

As for M-Cameron's assertions, it's not so much Chiappa wanting to hide a devious scheme. It is about the technology's possible misuse AND the above.

Neverwinter
August 1, 2011, 11:06 AM
Your opinion is not rational to me. Purchasing from a gun company who applies technology that can be used against its customers and then indirectly panders to the anti-RKBA contingency by ridiculing its customer base does not make sense.

It's nice to see how we've jumped from their press release ridiculing paranoiacs to the conclusion of pandering to anti-RKBA.

Onward Allusion
August 1, 2011, 11:23 AM
It's nice to see how we've jumped from their press release ridiculing paranoiacs to the conclusion of pandering to anti-RKBA.

You're right. I stand corrected. Nothing stated about pro-anti by Chiappa, however, certainly ammo there for the antis.

Epic fail by Chiappa management nevertheless.

quatin
August 1, 2011, 11:26 AM
I can see how this thread went awry.

Chiappa puts RFID on guns, DEFCON hacker manages to detect RFIDs from 100 yards away, therefore guns are detectable from 100 yards away.

Here's the faulty logic.

1) You can detect RFID and maybe read them from 90 feet, but that doesn't mean you can detect what it's on. If you listen to the lecture, he's targeting a common generic RFID tag technology. All you get from the tag is an alpha numeric sequence.

2) He's targeting the tags on credit cards, which are stored parallel to your body and without metallic components, which is an ideal case for scanning.

3) The amplifiers he used was in the 20W - 100W range and in the HF to 900 MHz band. The FCC regulates those bands and even then you can't transmit at that high of a power without special approval. Your employers can't hack together these things without breaking the law. I doubt any company will be allowed to manufacture high power RFID scanners in the HF (military band) and 900MHz (cellular/mobile) spectrum.

4) Lastly, the government already has better ways to track if you have guns, *cough* 4473.

TenMillimaster
August 1, 2011, 01:03 PM
If the potential for abuse still exists, I would still rather it not. A paper trail is one thing... an active way to search, whether legal or illegal is another. Right now it only might be some guns that are tagged. Soon it may be that all guns are tagged out of convenience. Then a law gets passed requiring this to be so. Then a law making it illegal to remove them.
Then someone makes a neat sensor wand that can detect rfid's and tell the user what it detects (clothes, weapons, everything that is about you). If it only works within a few feet, so what? Put it in a doorway, everyone gets scanned. It gets in the wrong hands, (and it will) and now all of a sudden anyone with a desire too can make a few quick sweeps just to see what's on you. A quick pass and aim it right at the waist where almost everyone who carries carries, and presto. Cops will have these things in inventory and as long as everyone else on the team is game, they won't get busted much for making illegal searches to "protect themselves" from CCW'ers.

The ATF conducting ongoing "investigations" (and keeping financial records of who buys what) is bad enough. I'd rather not see RFID's make the future of firearms even worse.

TenMillimaster
August 1, 2011, 01:05 PM
oops. Double tap.

ConstitutionCowboy
August 1, 2011, 01:07 PM
RFID chips are like electronic bar codes. Without the database for the code for the thing it has no meaning.

Yeah it does! It means there's a gun on a hip somewhere close! While the "reader" may not be able to cite make and model, it knows you've got something!

It is an inventory tracking and control mechanism for manufacturers, not some hideous shadow government conspiracy.

Yet.

For those still concerned you can simply remove the grip and remove the hot glued RFID from the frame in the grip area...

...for now...

If you own a car manufactured in the last decade you likely have dozens if not hundreds of RFID tags all over your car. Same thing goes for kitchen appliances.

We bought a new washer and drier combo about a year ago. I walked past them with an AM radio tuned to 1000 shortly thereafter and couldn't believe the loud and perfectly clear signal emanating from each machine. WHY?

We've got 2, 1999 Suburbans. One is a Chevy and the other a GMC, both relatively low miles and we'll keep them 'till we die. Everything newer has that "OnStar" installed that can be used to shut you down from space whether you subscribe or not. Don't be surprised when you find out some of your guns won't work when you drive through some high-powered EMP and a fusible link melts...

Ignore this crap at your own risk.

Woody

USAF_Vet
August 1, 2011, 02:17 PM
it knows you've got something!



Yes, but it doesn't know you've got a gun. 'Something' covers quite a bit of real estate.
Of the somethings I have, it could be my boots or my belt buckle. The alpha numeric code recieved by the RFID scanners means nothing without the database. As has been pointed out, millions of products carry RFID tags. Finding out which of those million products is your gun is like finding a specific needle in a stack of needles.

We bought a new washer and drier combo about a year ago. I walked past them with an AM radio tuned to 1000 shortly thereafter and couldn't believe the loud and perfectly clear signal emanating from each machine. WHY?


Based on what you heard from your appliances, were you able to figure out what they were, who they belonged to, what model they were? Or was it just very clear white noise?

Everything newer has that "OnStar" installed that can be used to shut you down from space whether you subscribe or not.

What, like a bait car?

Dnaltrop
August 1, 2011, 02:20 PM
M-Cam.. their "public" press release is an Italian language one, IN Italy.

The only reason we know about this is because of a savvy gun-blogger running their news through Google translation.


More folks need to attend The Black Hat conference, or at least watch it remotely on the web. It might open their eyes to how many people devote their lives just to testing these exploits, even if they have no intention of using them to some sinister end.

http://www.securitynewsdaily.com/flying-drone-steals-wi-fi-passwords-hacks-cellphones-1007/

Mike Tassey and Richard Perkins are the proud creators of the Wireless Aerial Surveillance Platform (WASP), a drone specially rigged with hacking tools capable of capturing home wireless network passwords.

Tassey and Perkins built in a feature that impersonates the GSM cell phone towers used by AT&T and T-Mobile. When the WASP flies close enough to a person's cellphone, the phone connects to the antenna on the WASP instead of the phone's legitimate cell tower.

As a result, the WASP, if used in this devious way, could record a person's conversations and text messages, and, as Tassey said, "the target won't even know he's being spied on."

(mods, cut this down if it's too much of the included article)

Edit... the Forbes version of the story as well

http://blogs.forbes.com/andygreenberg/2011/07/28/flying-drone-can-crack-wifi-networks-snoop-on-cell-phones/
~~

All done without violating FCC standards.

M-Cameron
August 1, 2011, 02:25 PM
We bought a new washer and drier combo about a year ago. I walked past them with an AM radio tuned to 1000 shortly thereafter and couldn't believe the loud and perfectly clear signal emanating from each machine. WHY?

because they are electrical devices........everything that has a current flowing through it, especially electronics with large heating elements...... emits some form of electromagnetic radiation.....which is what you were picking up in the radio.

its not from the RFID tags

ive done the same thing with the electrical wiring in my house.......and last i checked....my house isnt bugged.




We've got 2, 1999 Suburbans. One is a Chevy and the other a GMC, both relatively low miles and we'll keep them 'till we die. Everything newer has that "OnStar" installed that can be used to shut you down from space whether you subscribe or not. Don't be surprised when you find out some of your guns won't work when you drive through some high-powered EMP and a fusible link melts...


so now weve jumped from "trackable RFID tags"......to "computer chips that render your gun useless".......?



yes, i suppose its technically possible one day.......so is skynet......but im not building my bomb shelter just yet.....




M-Cam.. their "public" press release is an Italian language one, IN Italy.

so they havent yet released an english press release....for something thats over a year away........so they must be up to something devious....?

man, they sure dropped the stack in hoping no english speakers know italian......

rscalzo
August 1, 2011, 02:29 PM
if used in this devious way, could record a person's conversations

So now they know what I'm having for dinner....Diabolical !!!!!

Dnaltrop
August 1, 2011, 02:34 PM
You're the one who said they announced it...

I just pointed out that they released the statement to a minute fraction of their market.

seanie!
August 1, 2011, 02:37 PM
I work with RFID chips on a daily basis. My company is big into lean manufacturing, ie. eliminating wasted movement, unnecessary steps, etc. I'm in the shipping department of my company, and we use them for inventory management. We produce networking components like servers, rack systems, and IT products. We mount our RFID chips to the actual product itself. Why, you ask? Because if the RFID chip is mounted in or on our product, that means our product is there, in that packaging. If the RFIDs were mounted attached to the packing materials, that means we could ship out empty cartons and containers that supposedly have product inside it. Or someone could be stealing product, and according to the box, it's still in there.

With that said, as far as I know, there is no way of disabling any of our products via the RFIDs mounted inside of them. We produce electronic equipment, most of which is ESD sensitive. If we can't zap our products into not working via the RFIDs inside them, I don't think it's physically possible to disable a gun from firing with one. Just a thought.

M-Cameron
August 1, 2011, 02:39 PM
You're the one who said they announced it...

I just pointed out that they released the statement to a minute fraction of their market.

they did announce it.........it was made public.........they are an Italian company......so it only makes sense that their initial press release is to be in Italian.....

so your theory is that they only wanted the italian people to be in on their devious plot......and if not for the brave efforts of on blogger.....we would all be blind to govt control, and our houses open to heroine addicts?

perhaps you should get on every gun manufacturer because they are plotting against the blind for not releasing their press releases in braille....?

usually translations in other languages come a bit after their initial release.

USAF_Vet
August 1, 2011, 02:40 PM
You really expect Chiappa to release a worldwide press release in dozens of languages over the news that they will be using RFID tags to track inventory in the manufacturing facilities? I mean, this isn't shocking news, nor is it some diabolical scheme to make guns easier for the global government to confiscate. Because of course there will be global government, and Chippa will have a seat at the head table, right?

Don't like RFID tags in your gun, don't buy it. Or take it off. This is not some massive conspiracy plot to end civilian gun ownership worldwide by some shadow government.

Dnaltrop
August 1, 2011, 02:40 PM
Humor aside Rscalzo... I'm glad that you are comfortable with the thought of having someone not a party to your conversation listening to you.

I don't care if all they hear is my giving my wife a list of groceries, Third parties have no business listening to my phone conversations, or ( given the topic) scanning me, my car, or my home for RFID signals.

Those who would give up liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both.... where have we heard that before....

Dnaltrop
August 1, 2011, 02:42 PM
Let us go back to our dear friend Douglas Adams and the world of Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy...

(for those who have not read this series, Mr Arthur Dent is laying in front of a bulldozer, arguing with the foreman, having just discovered his house is to be demolished for a Bypass)

"But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."

"Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."
"But the plans were on display ..."
"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."
"That's the display department."
"With a flashlight."
"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."
"So had the stairs."
"But look, you found the notice didn't you?"
"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."


Edit... M-Cam... Since you say they're just late to announce this in the US

http://www.chiappafirearms.com/news-events let us know when their press release pops up

ConstitutionCowboy
August 1, 2011, 02:43 PM
Yes, but it doesn't know you've got a gun. 'Something' covers quite a bit of real estate.
Of the somethings I have, it could be my boots or my belt buckle. The alpha numeric code recieved by the RFID scanners means nothing without the database. As has been pointed out, millions of products carry RFID tags. Finding out which of those million products is your gun is like finding a specific needle in a stack of needles.

Oh, It won't take long for the data bases to become available if they are not already available.


Based on what you heard from your appliances, were you able to figure out what they were, who they belonged to, what model they were? Or was it just very clear white noise?

It ain't me knowing what the signals mean that worries me. It's those who do know what the signals mean that worries me.


What, like a bait car?

No, like ANY OnStar vehicle.

More folks need to attend The Black Hat conference, or at least watch it remotely on the web. It might open their eyes to how many people devote their lives just to testing these exploits, even if they have no intention of using them to some sinister end.

I'm concerned about those waiting for the development to mature so they can use them toward some sinister end.

Woody

Dnaltrop
August 1, 2011, 03:00 PM
http://www.tiropratico.com/Cinzia_Pinzoni/RFID_chiappa.pdf

The original PDF , no date stamp on it. Lets see how long until an English version pops out.

http://www.tiropratico.com the front page of this announcement. such large text.

M-Cameron
August 1, 2011, 03:02 PM
It ain't me knowing what the signals mean that worries me. It's those who do know that the signals mean that worries me.


so let me see if i get this straight......

you were able to pick up and unknown radio signal from your washing machine using an AM radio......so now you are worried that some Govt agency, or some advanced heroine addicted hacker will be able to detect the signature from the passive RFID tags, placed in your gun with means to deceit by the manufacturer who only felt the need to inform the Italian people.....with technology that will someday in the future be readily available....?


ive literally talked to Schizophrenics that are less paranoid.

Nushif
August 1, 2011, 03:03 PM
Those who would give up liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both.... where have we heard that before....

I really don't see how that quote works here ... RFID tags don't make the world more secure? Who's been saying that? In this thread?
All people are saying is that it's not a shadow conspiracy.

Dnaltrop
August 1, 2011, 03:07 PM
The ease of a surreptitious electronic inventory of ones possessions Nushif.

As this advances and becomes cheaply and widely available, the loss of your right to privacy at a distance. It's not big brother, it's Little bastard you have to fear.

Edit- from the original blog. and think of how many layers of cement and metal are here...

"Last year a hacker at DEFCON was able to detect if an individual standing on the ground floor parking lot of the Las Vegas Riviera Hotel was carrying a certain brand of RFID chip from as far away as the 29th floor of the hotel."


Further Edit- As stated in the Supreme Court Kyllo vs US dissent, It's possible that as RFID readers filter their way into every home... such searches COULD become permissible.

(lets say from shopping carts that detect and tally your groceries as you shop, saving you the effort of an extended checkout)

Stevens' Kyllo dissent. http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/pdf/99-8508P.ZD

Nushif
August 1, 2011, 03:20 PM
Most of the lowlife types I have dealt with, which there hasn't been many of, don't even know how to work a computer.

Believe me. I am all for privacy, especially electronic privacy, (one of my pet peeves) but an RFID chip, especially a passive one in any given device requires a lot of hardware. And a lot of software both on the bad guys part and the actual software end.

What we sometimes fail to do here is categorize crime. We think all criminals will use all means to achieve all criminality. I guess that comes from us wanting to simplify their behavior in case we ever do have to do what we have to do.

But let's don our criminal hats for a second.

I am a highly qualified hacker. the kind with the access to this sort of hardware required to read RFID chips remotely. I have tons of great gadgets. Potentially I can rip off banks, big businesses, etc.
Why on earth am I going through my neighbor's trash, for a quick meth fix? Where is this coming from?
I could steal all the social security numbers in the world ... or ten million dollars. I'd go for the money. Sorry. Let's face it. The kinds of people who do this, in any kind of foreseeable future are not the one's who are interested in your guns. They're not even interested in you! They have bigger fish to fry!

When dealing with high tech criminals you do have to be aware that they're not the same ones as the guys picking fights in bars, gangbangers, or meth heads who are rifling through your trash. If you wanna defend against them, I'd recommend you learn to program instead of shooting. Or go off the grid. In a heavily wooded area.

Not all criminals are the same, and it would be a grave error to slap these hacking types into the same behavior pattern as some gangbanger, meth head or financial whiz.

Variety, folks. Differences. It's for more than just ballistics.

ConstitutionCowboy
August 1, 2011, 03:40 PM
because they are electrical devices........everything that has a current flowing through it, especially electronics with large heating elements...... emits some form of electromagnetic radiation.....which is what you were picking up in the radio.

its not from the RFID tags

ive done the same thing with the electrical wiring in my house.......and last i checked....my house isnt bugged.

I'm not talking static or hash, here. I'm talking clear and precise purposefully generated radio signals.

so now weve jumped from "trackable RFID tags"......to "computer chips that render your gun useless".......?



yes, i suppose its technically possible one day.......so is skynet......but im not building my bomb shelter just yet.....

And what makes you think a bomb shelter will be of any use?

If we can't zap our products into not working via the RFIDs inside them, I don't think it's physically possible to disable a gun from firing with one.

If an RFID chip can set off an alarm at an exit, surely it can trigger a fusible link - especially one that contains its own fuel.

Don't like RFID tags in your gun, don't buy it. Or take it off. This is not some massive conspiracy plot to end civilian gun ownership worldwide by some shadow government.

Yet.

so let me see if i get this straight......

...Yadda, Yadda, Yadda...


ive literally talked to Schizophrenics that are less paranoid.

Wow, that didn't take long!

All people are saying is that it's not a shadow conspiracy.

I'm not.

Most of the lowlife types I have dealt with, which there hasn't been many of, don't even know how to work a computer.

It just takes one.

Woody

Nushif
August 1, 2011, 03:46 PM
It just takes one.

That line of reasoning is a very, very slippery slope. Next we're gonna be actively keeping our eyes out for pie throwing monkeys, because one pie throwing monkey sitting next to a freeway could possibly cause a pile-up.

There has to be a reasonability element to preparation. And some hacker who has the hardware to make tons of money off unarmed institutions isn't going to be robbing me of my proverbial Glock and trying to steal my washer.

Zoogster
August 1, 2011, 04:27 PM
TenMillimaster said:
Right now it only might be some guns that are tagged. Soon it may be that all guns are tagged out of convenience. Then a law gets passed requiring this to be so. Then a law making it illegal to remove them.
Then someone makes a neat sensor wand that can detect rfid's and tell the user what it detects (clothes, weapons, everything that is about you). If it only works within a few feet, so what? Put it in a doorway, everyone gets scanned. It gets in the wrong hands, (and it will) and now all of a sudden anyone with a desire too can make a few quick sweeps just to see what's on you.

And that is part of the reason it is a problem.
Chiappa is not involved in some big conspiracy to track you, they are doing something out of convenience.
But that must be stopped, because there is a clear progression in such things.
Manufacturers didn't originally add serial numbers to help government track guns or make it easy to register your guns either. Now it is against the law to even remove them.
The intent in adding such things does not have to be bad for it to have bad consequences.

The danger is allowing other gun manufacturers to adopt similar measures for convenience and then once they are already being used by one or more big firearm manufacturers a law being put in place requiring them and making it illegal to remove or damage them.
At which point the info required on those RFID tags will be standardized, for example per ATF specifications, which means anyone will have the means to scan for RFID tags using that format. It will become easy to scan for firearm RFID tags, and law abiding citizens will not have removed, tampered, disabled, or otherwise broken the law to interfere with them.
Such progression does not happen immediately, it is a process.

At that point any corporation, employer, retail chain, etc can use RFID readers throughout buildings to determine and track who has firearms.
In essence reducing everyone's concealed carry to open carry.
It does not even have to be the primary purpose of such RFID readers in many places, just a convenient secondary use that uses the readers already put in place to track merchandise and similar things, requiring nothing but the software to also look for the firearm format.
A chain that does not like firearms can call the police or have security ask you to leave when you enter with an RFID firearm tag. Concealed won't mean unknown.
Those that work in places they currently carry concealed may lose that ability as well, when most employers with inexpensive technology can determine who is carrying in violation of company policies.
Not only on person, but in cars in the parking lot, long guns, hand guns, etc



It is not a conspiracy, it is how such technology and law progresses. The way to stop it is to cause manufacturers to not use them because it reduces sales.
Nipping the problem in the bud, long before it can develop into one you actually have to worry about.
People with experience with such technology know the direction it is heading.
It will be an abused tool if allowed to be placed into firearms. That does not require the intent of those placing them into firearms to be anything but one of convenience.

N003k
August 1, 2011, 05:00 PM
Question for those with a decent amount of experience with RFID chips...how sensitive are they? What sort of things could cause them to fail? Would enough heat off a gun for instance cause them to be damaged beyond use?

Some people are saying it might eventually be law to require them in guns, but no one's asking if that's even feasible, if they could hold up to prolonged use on a gun, or if there might be something that could just cause them to fail, like maybe a bit of copper solvent you're using to clean your gun getting on it.

Serial numbers are just a lack of metal in the frame. RFID scanners are chips that, well, would be a bit more sensitive I imagine.

Geckgo
August 1, 2011, 05:16 PM
Just finished reading this beligerant post, and I agree with nook. If these things had been around before someone got the clever idea of stamping a number into a frame, we might not have serial numbers. I never knew those little tags on items were RFID tags, I always thought they were just magnetized ferromagnetic pieces of crap and the "scanners" picked up the magnetic signature, but then I haven't bought many magnets from walmart. If they can be deactivated by a magnet, I would venture to say that they are too easy to destroy to ever think about using them as a replacement for serial numbers, or some similar victim of a govt probing device. N003k just got to this before I could, :D

M-Cameron
August 1, 2011, 05:17 PM
Question for those with a decent amount of experience with RFID chips...how sensitive are they? What sort of things could cause them to fail? Would enough heat off a gun for instance cause them to be damaged beyond use?

Some people are saying it might eventually be law to require them in guns, but no one's asking if that's even feasible, if they could hold up to prolonged use on a gun, or if there might be something that could just cause them to fail, like maybe a bit of copper solvent you're using to clean your gun getting on it.

Serial numbers are just a lack of metal in the frame. RFID scanners are chips that, well, would be a bit more sensitive I imagine.

in the environment a firearm lives in.....they are not robust at all.....

for starters, they are mostly comprised of copper wire........well, guess what happens when you are a little to liberal with the copper solvent.........yup, theyll dissolve.

secondly....they are not built with durability in mind......a few firing sessions might not break it......but after a year or two of regular use, especially on a high power rifle......its not out of the realm of possibility that one would fail.

as for heat though....unless they are on the barrel....chances are they wont be effected.

whalerman
August 1, 2011, 05:17 PM
Let's see, a system embedded in guns that with proper equipment can be used to track them. And our mods think it is silly to be concerned? I'll have to look up the word, silly, again.

Dnaltrop
August 1, 2011, 05:20 PM
"There has to be a reasonability element to preparation. And some hacker who has the hardware to make tons of money off unarmed institutions isn't going to be robbing me of my proverbial Glock and trying to steal my washer."

Given the rash of recent security holes (lulzsec, Anonymous etc) Neighbor, those large corporate targets will become less and less viable. Being an " electronics and computer guy" 10-20 years ago often times was an easy "in" to many employers. It served me in good stead up till the point where I came home to raise my kids.

Now when I look at all the ex-IT guys out there delivering pizza, collecting unemployment, attending college to learn another trade. I shudder to think of attempting to re-enter the market today.

One working arm, bad hips, bad mobility, AND there are 10,000 guys out there with more recent experience than me. If someone like me possessed an addictive personality... or even a personal tragedy and desperation, it could very well turn someone like me into the very "what if" we discuss here.

481
August 1, 2011, 05:23 PM
Question for those with a decent amount of experience with RFID chips...how sensitive are they? What sort of things could cause them to fail? Would enough heat off a gun for instance cause them to be damaged beyond use?

Some people are saying it might eventually be law to require them in guns, but no one's asking if that's even feasible, if they could hold up to prolonged use on a gun, or if there might be something that could just cause them to fail, like maybe a bit of copper solvent you're using to clean your gun getting on it.

Serial numbers are just a lack of metal in the frame. RFID scanners are chips that, well, would be a bit more sensitive I imagine.
Being solid state circuits (semi-conductor material with embedded micro-electronics components) they are very easily damaged.

A couple of seconds in a microwave (literally two or three seconds will do it) will destroy them. They can also be shorted (fused) by the voltage and current produced by a AA battery or two (a few milliamperes) and permanently destroyed.

If they are hot glued and easily removed, just a quick blow from a hammer as the RFID unit sits on concrete or another hard surface will do the job.

Certain corrosive chemicals might destroy them too, but if the RFID chip is encapsulated or coated it is an "iffy" proposition.

TenMillimaster
August 1, 2011, 05:25 PM
Question for those with a decent amount of experience with RFID chips...how sensitive are they? What sort of things could cause them to fail? Would enough heat off a gun for instance cause them to be damaged beyond use?


A good way to remove a tag is to microwave them. The microwave will induce a current in the antenna, which is not designed to take heat, and will melt it (much like high currents melt fuses). Athough metal in the microwave can tend to raise hairs, it's somewhat safe (for you yes, the microwave's magnetron, not so much).

If the RFID tag is in contact with a metal part of the firearm, maybe you could also run huge currents through the gun and see if that fries the antenna.
Of course you could always just cut the antenna and Chip and presto, ineffectual RFID chip.

Dnaltrop
August 1, 2011, 05:25 PM
RFID Durability tests on "better" units.

http://rfid.net/product-listing/reviews/235-extremely-durable-rfid-tags-for-oil-gas-a-construction

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDMX4qWyad8

azmjs
August 1, 2011, 05:27 PM
Opinion - Yes, absolutely and thank G*d that we do, but Al Sharpton??? Where did he come into the picture???

Your opinion is not rational to me. Purchasing from a gun company who applies technology that can be used against its customers and then indirectly panders to the anti-RKBA contingency by ridiculing its customer base does not make sense. Poor marketing at best but it looks to be more like idiocy in management.

As for M-Cameron's assertions, it's not so much Chiappa wanting to hide a devious scheme. It is about the technology's possible misuse AND the above.

"technology that can be used against its customers" is paranoid fantasizing.

Maybe Chiappa doesn't consider paranoiacs to be its "customer base."

I myself confess to a bit of apprehension about armed paranoiacs, consider the evil perpetrated in Norway last week.

Al Sharpton is the model being imitated here by the people who are offended at the hurtful words spoken by Chiappa's distributor.

These people feel that they should be flattered and pandered to, and want the ones responsible for hurting their feelings to "Apologize!"

Or else they're going to do a boycott... where have I heard that before?

Dnaltrop
August 1, 2011, 05:38 PM
Azmjs, Very high road of you to equate rational, technologically savvy people with the Norway shooter.

I agree with you that the "hurt feelings" defense is silly, but RFID is already being used against the consumer every day with the theft and cloning of RFID enabled credit cards.

Edit- Aside from the thinly veiled Name calling from those less able to formulate cogent arguments, this has been one of the better, intellectually stimulating discussions I've participated in online in some time.

USAF_Vet
August 1, 2011, 05:39 PM
RFID tags can be disabled with a simple home made electro magnet in about 5 seconds. And that is going about 4 seconds longer just to be on the safe side. Any fourth grader with a science project can do this.

the level of paranoia in this thread is absolutely amazing

azmjs
August 1, 2011, 05:40 PM
Azmjs, Very high road of you to equate rational, technologically savvy people with the Norway shooter.

I agree with you that the "hurt feelings" defense is silly, but RFID is already being used against the consumer every day with the theft and cloning of RFID enabled credit cards.

The Norway shooter was rational and technologically savvy...

I haven't "equated" him with anyone, if you'd pay close attention to my post.

You'll know when I "equate" people because I'll type "is equal to."

azmjs
August 1, 2011, 05:42 PM
RFID tags can be disabled with a simple home made electro magnet in about 5 seconds. And that is going about 4 seconds longer just to be on the safe side. Any fourth grader with a science project can do this.

the level of paranoia in this thread is absolutely amazing

But, but, it's not that they're paranoid, it's that they're "rational and technologically savvy."

...

;)

Dnaltrop
August 1, 2011, 05:47 PM
You equated the technological concern with a nascent technology with the depraved indifference to humanity of someone who murdered nearly 80 people, on a board where every member is likely armed.

Armed... Paranoiac.... Norway, perhaps not how you intended it, but that IS what you wrote, in the company of a very specific subsection of citizenry.

Edit - ""technology that can be used against its customers" is paranoid fantasizing.

Maybe Chiappa doesn't consider paranoiacs to be its "customer base."

I myself confess to a bit of apprehension about armed paranoiacs, consider the evil perpetrated in Norway last week."

There is Nothing the least bit unclear about this statement Neighbor. Thinly veiled or not, you lump us in with that waste of humanity.

horsearcherwannabe
August 1, 2011, 07:04 PM
So you're carrying a Rhino concealed with a chip on it. Your in the vicinity of a tech-wise individual with the electronic hardware capable to read the information on that tag. What's the worst that could happen?
Let me see. You might want to ask the people in Minnesota that were “preemptively arrested” because they were planning on protesting outside a political rally. http://www.commondreams.org/further/2009/09/02-0
Or someone targets your house for a break in because you have a gun.
Or just shoots you dead without warning to get your gun.
The biggest defense that “we the people” have against a government is that governments fear and ignorance. If the doesn’t know where the means of resistance are it cannot control that means. Any tyrant needs to fear the people if they have the means of resistance. At the same time any government’s greatest defense is the good will of its armed and willing citizens. No thanks I do not want an RFID in my firearms or my butt.

azmjs
August 1, 2011, 07:16 PM
The worst thing that could happen is that you try to illegally sneak a gun into somewhere that it is prohibited and you're caught.

I don't think this is a bad outcome, even though it is a remarkably far fetched one.

N003k
August 1, 2011, 07:22 PM
Let me sum up a few things real quick...

These chips broadcast a generic alpha-numeric sequence, that can ONLY be identified by using the correct database.

These chips are used in many many MANY things.

There's theoretically nothing that prevents two chips from different companies on completely different things from broadcasting the same sequence. (Is it a gun, or a tshirt?)

The chips aren't the most durable things (though there ARE durable ones available) that can easily be thwarted, even accidentally.

They are, for the most part fairly short range.

I really don't see the issue, mainly because of the fragility, and commonality of their use. Seriously, how does one know if that sequence relates to a car part, a gun, a shirt, or some small electronic? If anything DOES get proposed for mandating these, I really don't see it gaining much traction, but if it ever does, then I'll get really up in arms about it. As for this case, I really don't see the issue at the time.

azmjs
August 1, 2011, 07:25 PM
Apparently the hysteria is due to the "danger" of having a computer hacker some where get a hold of a list of which RFID numbers are coded into Chiappa handgun RFID tags, and then using a sophisticated detector in order to determine whether someone he scans is concealing a chiappa handgun.

And then he beams them up. Like on Star Trek.

buck460XVR
August 1, 2011, 07:47 PM
Besides the paranoia, most of you are misdirecting your anger. Doesn't the press release state that the RFID chips are required by the Italian Government? So Chiappa has no choice in the matter? So do we need to boycott all Italian produced products now....or just remove the darn chip and throw it away?

M-Cameron
August 1, 2011, 07:49 PM
Besides the paranoia, most of you are misdirecting your anger. Doesn't the press release state that the RFID chips are required by the Italian Government? So Chiappa has no choice in the matter? So do we need to boycott all Italian produced products now....or just remove the darn chip and throw it away?

no, they are not required....the proof marks are required.....and the RFID just allows them to have digital access to the proof marks and SN number.

Dnaltrop
August 1, 2011, 08:11 PM
1) As stated earlier Noo3k... RFID is not one homogenous signal. Yes you get a serial number, but it only appears if you're searching at the correct frequency for the chip in question.

2) As Chiappa intends these to be "inventory" only and not a feature of the gun itself, I have no issues with Chiappa using perforated shrink-wrap to impermanently attach the RFID to the outside of the gun.

I'll start working on my 1500 page manifesto as soon as this years DEFCON presentation on hacking Gun safe locks has concluded. :rolleyes:

(not joking on that one folks "Safe to Armed in Seconds: A Study of Epic Fails of Popular Gun Safes")

http://www.blackhat.com
http://defcon.org/

Where the rest of us paranoid hysterical armed psychopaths of society gather to educate ourselves before bringing about the downfall of society in advance of our alien overlords.

Onward Allusion
August 1, 2011, 08:49 PM
A little off-topic but still related to RFID. Did y'all know that employers now track and clock employees throughout their facility using RFID technology? Interesting that just 6 years ago, Cisco was put through the wringer when they were going to do just that. Now it is commonplace for employers to integrate RFID with payroll/time-clock and security functions on people. I wonder how people feel about HR knowing when they use the bathroom.

In any event, this is why RFID cannot be allowed to permanently (melted) integrate into firearms. There will come a day (soon) where RFID chips will be much tougher have longer range and translation codes will be commonplace on the Internet.

JohnKSa
August 1, 2011, 11:15 PM
I've spent a couple of decades working with RF in one form or another and quatin's post (post #124) is exactly on target.

While there are RFID tags that can be read at long distance with handheld readers, they are specially designed RFID tags which are much larger than the tiny chips or tags most folks think about when they hear the words "RFID tags". The only really long-range passive RFID tag I'm aware of is roughly the size of a full-sized autopistol and weighs half a pound.

The tiny passive RFID tags currently used for inventory control are only readable at very short distances--inches or maybe a foot or so with any reasonably sized reader. To read at long distances would require a very large antenna and/or very high power in the transmitter/reader. Both of which are quite problematic for any type of covert activity--the reader couldn't be hidden inside a vehicle, for example because it wouldn't be able to read through the metal body of the vehicle. And if they mounted some monster reader antenna on an open truck and drove it down your street, even then, a layer of metal would defeat the reader. Say aluminum siding on your house, a metal gun safe or metal gun case, or the metal in your garage door or the metal in the body of your car, etc. Or tinfoil, if you prefer.

All of which is pretty much moot since the company tells you how to remove the tag.

I might be a little concerned if the company was trying to be covert about the tags or was putting them somewhere that made them very difficult to remove, but as it is, the technological limitations that severely limit the range that the tag can be read and the openness of the company about the presence of the tag and how to very easily remove it, make this a total non-issue.

It's simply their choice of an inventory control method and they shouldn't be catching flack about it.

Chiappa's press release is accurate.

paradox998
August 1, 2011, 11:53 PM
Databases can be subpoeneaed, tracking chips are called tracking chips for a reason. Cross Chiappa off my purchase list.

TenMillimaster
August 2, 2011, 12:04 AM
One thing can always lead to another. I'd rather see some legislation against the abuse of RFID technology now.
You can be sure Chiappa won't be getting my money either. AND you can bet they're going to get a nice email stating this and why.

RX-178
August 2, 2011, 12:21 AM
Shot an email over to the Professor (the one in my webshow, the Italian guy who writes for every single gun mag in Europe), asking him about this.

He's corresponded directly with Cinzia Pinzoni with Chiappa in Italy, and their official stance is that the RFID chips are for the Italian market only, and is not intended to be in Rhino revolvers imported into the USA.

Dnaltrop
August 2, 2011, 02:17 AM
Excellent Research RX-178!

And now we see why there was no , and will likely be no English language press release as well.

Thank you for using your connections to help clear the air on this obviously touchy subject, especially without stooping to attempts to belittle other posters.

THAT'S High Road. Remember folks, we may disagree, but we ARE on the same team in most respects.

buck460XVR
August 2, 2011, 08:16 AM
Shot an email over to the Professor (the one in my webshow, the Italian guy who writes for every single gun mag in Europe), asking him about this.

He's corresponded directly with Cinzia Pinzoni with Chiappa in Italy, and their official stance is that the RFID chips are for the Italian market only, and is not intended to be in Rhino revolvers imported into the USA.


Sooooooooooo....all this paranoia for nuttin'? Dang.....what the heck am I gonna do with all that tin foil?

ConstitutionCowboy
August 2, 2011, 12:27 PM
Sooooooooooo....all this paranoia for nuttin'? Dang.....what the heck am I gonna do with all that tin foil?

Save it for when they start putting RFID chips in guns over here.

Woody

seanie!
August 3, 2011, 02:42 AM
The danger is allowing other gun manufacturers to adopt similar measures for convenience and then once they are already being used by one or more big firearm manufacturers a law being put in place requiring them and making it illegal to remove or damage them.
At which point the info required on those RFID tags will be standardized, for example per ATF specifications, which means anyone will have the means to scan for RFID tags using that format. It will become easy to scan for firearm RFID tags, and law abiding citizens will not have removed, tampered, disabled, or otherwise broken the law to interfere with them.
Such progression does not happen immediately, it is a process.
Didn't a ton of people panic over the "lawyer locks" or "Hilary holes" or whatever you want to call them? As I recall, the sky was falling and our freedoms were in clear and present danger because every gun was going to be required to have a lock manufactured into it. Look how that ended up playing out.

RX-178
August 3, 2011, 05:42 AM
Save it for when they start putting RFID chips in guns over here.

As I understand, some HK pistols have had RFID chips in them since maybe as early as 2006.

5 years later and it turned into a non-issue until this Chiappa scandal.

RX-178
August 3, 2011, 12:55 PM
Okay, did some more research on the RFID thing from HK, just because I was curious.

Turns out that for a while, HK offered the RFID chip as an option for Law Enforcement agencies ONLY.

The idea was, if that particular department or agency had strict enough practice and qualification policies, (IE, you WILL practice only on the department range, you WILL practice only with ammo we issue you, and you WILL fire x-number of rounds every time you practice) they could keep track of the round count of each handgun just by scanning the RFID chip each time the handgun is brought to the range to practice. The RFID wouldn't actually STORE that data, the computer software would just add a certain number of rounds to the round count in the database each time that specific RFID chip was scanned at the range.

Sig actually offered the same thing for a while, but in either case the idea was greeted with an overwhelming lack of enthusiasm, to the point that Sig apparently never produced a single handgun with an RFID chip in it, and HK dropped the idea also, and ceased to keep track of which of their handguns had RFID chips, and which did not when they were imported.

tarosean
August 24, 2011, 06:47 AM
Sweet... Ill just hack the DB and replace the chips numbers with all of my dogs chip numbers and let whomever's watching scratch their heads... ha ha


I seriously need to keep stock in Reynolds Foil Inc.

Reasoned1
August 24, 2011, 11:33 AM
We are one sour election from having our gun rights stripped. Anyone who thinks the anti-gun activists and politicians and, yes, police bureaucracies wouldn't demand RFID tracking of firearms--probably as a stepping stone to finding the guns once they've illegalized them--is MUCHO naive.

JohnKSa
August 25, 2011, 12:23 AM
...anti-gun activists and politicians and, yes, police bureaucracies wouldn't demand RFID tracking of firearms...At this point, the technology isn't there to do anything practical along these lines.

The RFID tags that will allow tracking/reading at any thing past a few inches are about as large as a typical pistol and the ones that are small enough to conceal can only be read a few inches away by any reader that could be remotely described as practical.

Chiappa made an inventory control decision, nothing more. This kind of thing only gets blown out of proportion because people don't understand the technology (and the limitations of the technology) behind the tiny RFID tags used for inventory control.

rod5591
August 25, 2011, 12:28 AM
I don't see what the bIg deal is........because some hacker with a boat load of custom equipment and a pringles can-tenna might find out you have a gun from 300' away...?

cant the government use them to find our guns when the day comes when they are all banned and we are ordered to turn them in or face fines and/or imprisonment?

Jorg Nysgerrig
August 25, 2011, 12:39 AM
When the thread turns to gibbering paranoia instead of thoughtful, it's time to close it.

I'm not sure how this one survived so long.

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