My first Negligent Discharge -hopefully my last


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*NOVA*
July 29, 2011, 03:43 PM
First of all - nobody was hurt - damaged a picture that was on the floor next to the TV stand. Destroyed a Spode Sugar Bowl - Collectible- sitting on the TV stand. I ordered a replacement sugar bowl this afternoon.

Here's how it started. Early this morning I opened the locked storage locker at the foot of our bed to retrieve my new CZ75. I have taken it to the range only a couple of times and was looking forward to going again tomorrow morning. Here is what happened:

After opening the locker the gun is easy to retrieve - it is right next to my revolver used for Home Defense. Next to the semi was a loaded magazine.

The lighting in the room was dim, the wife was still asleep. I was not wearing any glasses - normally for close up vision I have to wear reading glasses. I pick up the CZ, rack the slide and see the chamber is empty. I let go of the slide and point the gun toward the TV. My dry fire was not dry - BANG!

OK, I am bracing myself for a lot of harsh criticsm out there and I deserve it - but now I will attempt to analyze what happened - I am not offering excuses - I am trying to list all of the contributing factors:

Main factor - NOT THINKING / NOT USING MY BRAIN

1. My brain saw the magazine next to the gun - but I had forgotten that the gun came with two magazines.
2. The magazines are painted black. I also had forgotten a decision I had made to have TWO guns ready for home defense in that locker - the revolver and the semi. So my brain tells me the gun has no magazine in it. My brain fails to register there is a magazine inserted! All I'm really thinking about is how much fun it will be to get to the range tomorrow.
3. Dim lighting / impaired vision
4. Lack of experience - it is my first semi-auto pistol

So, as most of you already know, when I racked the slide to open the action and check for an "empty chamber", what I really did, having a LOADED MAGAZINE inserted was chambered a round after releasing the slide!!!!

Well, after the round went off of course the wife woke up, realized almost instantly what I had done - I was in shock and speechless for a minute but managed to stammer that its ok I had an accident but not hurt. She gets out of bed, surveys the damage and in typical New York City GIRL fashion (I married a smart woman) she proceeds to inform me that I am the DUMBEST person she has ever met in her entire life! And at the moment I was convinced she was right...

Well, its been several hours now since the incident this morning. Neighbors never heard anything so that's not an issue, but I did check with them soon after it happened. The whole affair is quite sobering. I have strong feelings of shame and doubt. I wondered if I should sell my guns. Going through a lot of emotional trauma. I will never live this down with the wife. Now I'm thinking I need to man up, suck it up (including the posts this might bring) go to the range tomorrow anyway and chalk this up to experience.

It reminds me of the cop in DieHard who shot the kid and at the end of the movie shot the bad guy. Ok folks, hit me with your best shot, but if anyone knows I am an idiot - its me.

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JoeMal
July 29, 2011, 03:48 PM
At least you can man up to it. Don't let it stop you from going to the range tomorrow. Thanks for sharing your story and I hope I never have to venture down that road. I usually rack the slide 3 or 4 times when safety checking a weapon. (not trying to talk down to you, just help for future situations) Maybe when live rounds started ejecting from the gun you would realize that there's a mag still in the gun. I usually also check for a magazine before I rack the slide...

But nonetheless, everyone is safe and you learned a valuable lesson. And make sure to work on your trigger control and accuracy tomorrow...you didn't even hit the TV like you were aiming for! :neener::o

MedWheeler
July 29, 2011, 03:50 PM
You don't need our comments (though you're dang sure to get them!), and you've already manned up. Thanks.

cyclopsshooter
July 29, 2011, 03:51 PM
After my 1911 ND I felt like I should sell all my guns too- That feeling passed- use it as a learning experience... you are probably safer with guns now than you were before.

Mike1234567
July 29, 2011, 03:57 PM
Glad everyone is okay!!

I once dropped a Kel-Tec P11 muzzle first on concrete. It fell out of my pocket after I'd been sitting for awhile and I neglected to assure it was well seated in my pocket as I arose (the gun has a side clip). I was very tired and sleep-deprived but that's no excuse!! This one has a lightened trigger spring and, subsequently, a lightened firing pin spring. I don't know if an unmodified gun would have discharged but this one certainly did. It blew a hole in the composite tile about 3 inches in diameter but did no other damage because the bullet essentially disintigrated. I no longer keep a cartridge chambered in that pistol.

Rail Driver
July 29, 2011, 04:00 PM
It happens to everyone at some point, and if it doesn't then you're the exception. Thank whoever or whatever you believe in that nobody was injured or killed and all that was damaged was a sugar bowl and a picture frame.

Instead of selling your guns and distancing yourself from them, use this as a learning experience and let it prevent the same thing from happening in the future. I'd suggest keeping the picture frame to remind you.

Andrew Wyatt
July 29, 2011, 04:05 PM
dryfiring is not part of the unloading process.

Iramo94
July 29, 2011, 04:06 PM
Congratulations on manning up and admitting it. Yeah, it was an ND, but at least you were well aware enough to point it in a direction that led to no bodily harm before "dry firing." (Really, at the TV?!) In my book, that right there makes you safer than the average Joe. Just take it as a learning experience.
Incedently, that's just about the same as my first experience with a handgun. I had my father's 5906, which he had loaded without telling me, to test me. He told me to dry fire it (We were at a gun range) so I picked it up, fanned the hammer back, and...Bang. It scared the hell out of me. Something tells me that you already are conditioned to never pick up an autoloader again without pressing the mag release.

kingpin008
July 29, 2011, 04:10 PM
It's been said that pretty much everyone who owns firearms will have an ND eventually. I'm not sure how much I believe that, but the law of averages seeme to state that a fair number of us will.

That said, here's what I think:

You screwed up. But, you know HOW you screwed up, and how to prevent that from happening again. IMHO, that's the important bit. If you weren't ashamed, and you weren't freaked out, then it'd be a problem.

As for selling your guns - to be blunt, don't be a fool. Do you stop driving when you have a fender bender because of a moment of distraction? of course not. You learn from it, and move on. Same thing goes in this situation.

Long story short - glad everyone's ok. You just learned a hell of a lesson, and it looks like you're taking it to heart. Good for you.

1KPerDay
July 29, 2011, 05:08 PM
Well, its been several hours now since the incident this morning. Neighbors never heard anything so that's not an issue, but I did check with them soon after it happened.
I'd be interested to hear what you said to them. :)


"Soooo.... you guys okay? Nothing out of the ordinary or anything?...." *whistling*


:D

Strykervet
July 29, 2011, 05:14 PM
My uncle sold his 870 right after he got it. On the first hunt, he had an AD, thankfully straight up in the air. That he sold it was probably the best thing for him. For him anyway.

I haven't had one, I never want one of course, and I'm careful and have a routine. Before dryfiring, like with a Glock during breakdown for instance, I like to check the chamber twice and see light through the magwell.

Just be more careful next time. You are lucky nobody got hurt.

BTW, I have seen an AD that nearly killed someone as a kid. The guy put a pistol he thought was unloaded to his head and pulled the trigger, just "messing around". He severed the right optic nerve and the left eyeball just exploded, the sinus drained all at once. What a mess. He's blind and can't smell now, ruined his life at 14 or 15 years old. Shame.

CVA-66
July 29, 2011, 05:15 PM
You may have been the dumbest person your wife had ever met at the time of the ND, but you got smarter before the echo died down. I'm willing to bet that's a mistake you'll NEVER make again.

Fred Fuller
July 29, 2011, 05:28 PM
Main thing about handling firearms is to ALWAYS have your head 100% in the game when there's a firearm in your hands. Read the one at the link in the OP at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=605462 ... brain fades are dangerous.

lpl

FourTeeFive
July 29, 2011, 05:35 PM
And following the "never let the muzzle of your gun aim at anything you're not willing to destroy" rule at least minimized the damage. But as some training that I've had pointed out, check and double-check that a gun is not loaded. When dealing with pistols (or any semi-auto weapon) always remove the magazine before you rack the slide.

Some people train to feel both the magwell and into the chamber to confirm a visual inspection. As you found out there is some sense to that as well.

Glad all went well, and that the wife didn't decide to make you the next casualty.

PlateStacker
July 29, 2011, 05:36 PM
dryfiring is not part of the unloading process.
eeeyea its not part of any process..

what exactly is the point in aiming your pistol at your TV and pulling the trigger?!

FourTeeFive
July 29, 2011, 05:39 PM
what exactly is the point in aiming your pistol at your TV and pulling the trigger?!

Good point. Decocking a gun should be a careful manual process or use the decocker if it has one.

Although in this case that would have left a chambered round in a gun that the individual thinks is unloaded. Which is still a problem (the "individual thinks is unloaded" part).

W.E.G.
July 29, 2011, 05:42 PM
I wondered if I should sell my guns.

I think you should.

...and the experience should be extra painful.

I'll give you $50 each, and that's more than you deserve.

DCR
July 29, 2011, 05:44 PM
Good on ya for manning up.

I have a mental picture of how my wife would have handled it - the report would have had her levitating 3 feet off the bed while flapping her arms!

Her hollering would have had my ears ringing louder and for longer than the pistol's....

Dnaltrop
July 29, 2011, 05:50 PM
Welcome to the club... Here you can have the Dunce cap I've been wearing for the last few weeks... pass it on to the next ND/AD guy.

No-one physically harmed, you may be shaken up a bit, but don't over-think yourself out of owning guns. Spend the over-thinking time double checking the chamber/cylinder.

It happens to many of us.. not all as my prior post admitting my own ND recently may state... but it's an ever-present risk that CAN happen to any of us given the right (or wrong) set of circumstances.

NMBrian
July 29, 2011, 06:14 PM
At least you had the wearwithal to point it in a safe direction to dry fire it.

Glad no one was hurt, it happens. Just dont make it a habbit :)

kingpin008
July 29, 2011, 06:20 PM
I think you should.

...and the experience should be extra painful.

I'll give you $50 each, and that's more than you deserve.

That's more than a little harsh, IMHO. Some of our best members have had ND's. It happens. The important things to take away from the OP's post are:

1. Nobody was injured.
2. He understands what he did was epically dumb and avoidable.

That, to me, says that he'll be extra-super careful not to do it again. Hardly cause to brow-beat the guy or suggest he's all the sudden too dangerous to own guns.

Creature
July 29, 2011, 06:29 PM
Welcome to the suckiest club on the planet.

1KPerDay
July 29, 2011, 06:33 PM
Hardly cause to brow-beat the guy or suggest he's all the sudden too dangerous to own guns.
I'm guessing W.E.G. was kidding. :)

KodiakBeer
July 29, 2011, 06:41 PM
You're an idiot!

OK, there, I said it. Now, take the experience and file it under "learning" and don't do it again. In fact, your posting this shows that you've already absorbed the lesson. Now go buy some ammo and apply the lesson.

kingpin008
July 29, 2011, 06:45 PM
Possibly. Hopefully. It's tough to tell sometimes on the internet, ya know?

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 29, 2011, 07:15 PM
I'm still yet to have a AD/ND yet and I always keep my two defensive guns loaded, both my XD40 and my 1100. I don't know if I'll ever have a AD/ND but we aren't perfect. Friend of mine who is in his late 60s early 70s recently had his first AD/ND into his gunsafe when clearing his Makarov.

*NOVA*
July 29, 2011, 07:59 PM
Epilogue:


I'm taking the The Lady to the range tomorrow. That's my new name for the CZ75, because I have a new found respect for her.

My wife's Spode Sugar bowl and lid will arrive in three days.

I have to replace the frame - the map of Mauntauk Island was unharmed.

I own a townhouse - neighbor to the East did not hear a darn thing. Neighbor to the West might have heard something but did not think anything of it. I asked her to call her husband (a deputy sheriff) he said not to worry nothing to report if the neighbors did not complain and no one hurt.

Now the wife hides the key to the locker. No more handling in a dark room - if I want one of my babies the room will be well lit. I have to be able to see clearly what I am handling. No more storing loaded guns. The only time I will have a loaded gun in my hand is when I am ready to shoot it.

Oh, one more thing... I'm keeping my babies.
:) Many thanks to all who responded. Good feedback and advice - you did not kick a man when he's down - guess that's just another reason we call it The High Road.

Mike1234567
July 29, 2011, 08:11 PM
WHAM!!

BANG!!

WHOMP!!

Holy fried green tomatoes, Batman!! You've been thoroughly beaten but you came out the winner!!!

GLOOB
July 29, 2011, 08:46 PM
1. This is the reason why I never load a new gun, except at the range. Until the novelty wears off, it's more of a toy and a liability than a self defense tool like my ugly old Glock.

2. This is the reason I never drop the slide on a gun that I've safety checked. Dropping the slide is how I LOAD a gun. After a chamber check, I lower the slide slowly while looking through the ejection port. Even without your glasses, and without checking the magwell, I think you would have seen/felt a round chambering if you did it that way.

3. This is one instance where the annoying "rack the slide half a dozen times real fast" thing would have worked. Of course, the other alternative is to actually look in the chamber and magwell.

M-Cameron
July 29, 2011, 08:52 PM
the wife was still asleep.


i bet that was one hell of a wake up call.......

how well did she react to the whole thing?

bbuddtec
July 29, 2011, 09:42 PM
Great damage control, all I can say is #1 clearing is eject mag.

Way to get back on the horse, man! :D

kingpin008
July 29, 2011, 09:52 PM
No more storing loaded guns. The only time I will have a loaded gun in my hand is when I am ready to shoot it.

With all due respect, the problem wasn't that the gun was loaded - it was because you handled it incorrectly at the time.

If you keep the guns for home defense, I strongly urge you to keep them loaded. I know from experience that the moment you are forced to react to a possible situation requiring a firearm is not the best time to have to load up. If you insist on keeping them unloaded, please practice loading drills to make sure you can do it reasonably well under stress. The last thing you need is a non-functioning gun in an emergency.

orionengnr
July 29, 2011, 09:54 PM
I joined that club about 25 years ago, long before I'd ever heard of "Four Rules" and before the internet was invented (or at least available to regular folks like us). I remember standing there in shock, ears ringing, a fresh hole in my wall, wishing I could have the last ten seconds to do over again.

I remember the shame and self-doubt. I never shared it with anyone up until a couple years ago, after joining this board and seeing that others had done it too.

Don't get me wrong. I did not take joy in others' misfortune, but it was a relief to find out I wasn't the only one who'd ever done it. :)

I've also done some other monumental acts of stupidity (non-firearms related, and no, I don't care to share), so I'm sure not going to beat you up.

I respect you for manning up and sharing your experience. Perhaps your post will help someone else can avoid "the experience".

Your wife may take a little time to come around, but if you have been as straight forward wiith her as you have with us, she will admire the fact that you realize what you did, learned from it and will not do it again.

I'm pretty sure it will be your last. I have read that some people have more than one, but (speaking for myself) I imagine that most of us are sufficiently humbled by the first one to want more than anything else never to re-live that experience.

Take that Lady to the range, get well acquainted, and enjoy each other's company. I think you will get along just fine. :)

BTW, I have seen an AD that nearly killed someone as a kid. The guy put a pistol he thought was unloaded to his head and pulled the trigger, just "messing around". There is a big difference between an ND and an AD, and the difference is both simple and crucial. This was an ND, pure and simple.

JoeSlomo
July 29, 2011, 09:57 PM
Learn from your mistakes, and drive on.

Negligence occurs as a direct result of an inappropriate mindset and a lack of discipline. Contrary to popular belief, there are many shooters who go through life without negligently discharging their firearms. These folks understand the potential consequences and handle their firearms with a "failure is not an option" approach. You can too OP, now that you have had your LAST negligent discharge.

One of the things that has helped me maintain mindset and discipline is to execute every action in accordance with a mental checklist as if "failure is not an option", because it isn't. Load, unload, and clearing, for example, are all done the same way EVERY time in accordance with their own specific checklist.

Clearing a magazine fed handgun for example:

1. Secure with finger outside of trigger well.
2. Point in safe direction.
3. Safe weapon.
4. Release magazine.
5. Point to mag well with index finger and verify empty with eyes.
6. Unsafe and lock slide to rear.
7. Watch for round ejection.
8. Point to chamber with index finger and verify empty with eyes.
9. Point to breech face with index finger and verify clear with eyes.
10. Point to mag well below breech face with index finger and verify clear with eyes.
11. Release and guide the slide forward.
12. Safe weapon

I run through this checklist EVERY time, to either check an "unloaded" firearm, or to clear a loaded firearm, and the combination of visual and touch checks with the index finger, has worked EVERY time. It just takes discipline.

Develop your own checklists, practice them, and always remember that failure is NOT an option. With discipline and safe handling habits, this will be your ONLY negligent discharge.

sidheshooter
July 29, 2011, 10:48 PM
Not much to add but this (in addition to +1 on the 4 rules):

Whenever I practice manipulation, draw or dry fire (or clean the weapons) I keep the ammo in a separate room. If it's a carry/HD weapon, it's clear twice, check three times (as mentioned, sight and feel), leave the ammo and mags behind and use separate training mags in a different room.

So far, so good.

Glad nobody was hurt, and live and learn; both you, and the rest of us. Thanks for having the guts to post.

egg250
July 29, 2011, 11:01 PM
When clearing my Glock, I lock the slide to the rear. This allows me to check the chamber and to the opportunity to view the rounds that are in the magazine. I then remove the magazine before I release the slide.

mdThanatos
July 29, 2011, 11:28 PM
Glad to hear that no injuries occurred and that the damage was minimal. To the post that said dryfiring is not part of any process, unfortunately some pistols require dryfiring in order to be disassembled.

Just a wake up call that always practice safety and remember the rules, and it never hurts to double check.

jcollins1007
July 29, 2011, 11:36 PM
Why would you sell your guns? People that have their first car wreck don't quit driving. Anyway, thanks for sharing your lessons learned story with us, as it is a reminder for us to practice good gun safety.

tbutera2112
July 29, 2011, 11:41 PM
glad youre ok and nobody got hurt....but my thinking is, how can you not tell its loaded? if theres a loaded mag in my handgun, i can always tell....the weight alone gives it away lol...without a mag, its nose heavy

m33p0n3
July 29, 2011, 11:44 PM
Like others have said, at least you realize the problem.

What you need to do is revise your steps for clearing a firearm. Racking the slide and checking the chamber visually is neither the first nor last step in properly clearing. Figure out a good system for you, and stick to it.

Evergreen
July 29, 2011, 11:44 PM
I had almost the same exact thing happen to me and wrote a post about it on The High Road.. Just look at all the responses I got and just expect you will get the same!! People will pat you on the back an comfort you, they will teach you safety rules and some will scold you and yell at you. Respect all those who respond, take each comment in, and feel thankful that this is a learning lesson that didn't cause any injury or fatality. It is great to read threads like this, as we learn from other mistakes how to avoid our own. Really, anyone who snickers at these threads and says "It will never happen to me", are the ones who are inviting these problems..

Take a look at the thread I posted about a year ago that happened. Unlike you, my unloaded gun mistake happen with an AR-15, which I thought didn't have a mag in it, just like you:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=544303



BTW.. I know the "SELL YOUR GUNS" feeling and guilt feeling you are going through. Thank God I am a bachelor, as I didn't have a woman to scold me. But, it probably would have done me some good. Soak it in. Anyhow, don't worry you will get over it. The fact that this happened to you and you are wanting to talk about means you are unlikely to have this happen again and that you will be more cautious then many other people. Think about safety all the time. Now when you dry fire, you will think twice. My advice, is to avoid dry firing in the house. I do not dry fire rifles in the house, but I still do dry fire my hanguns. I have a new rule now. I always point the gun in safe direction (NOT A TV). Usually a stack of books or the floor (assuming no person is beneath me) or the ceiling (if no person is above me). I check the magazine well several times. I keep checking the gun until it just feels silly to check it anymore. I put my finger in the chamber, i stick my finger up the magainze well. If I dry fire with a mag, I feel the mag and push down on the spring several times. I put the mag in after inspecting the chamber and then dry fire. Then I replace it with loaded mag, holster, put it away.

You have to be strong and not be hard on yourself. Be Diligent and consider yourself a blessed person who had to learn in a harsh manner about safety.

Dry firing should be taken very seriously.. This is how very many accidents have occurred.

whetrock
July 30, 2011, 12:00 AM
Don't let it drag you down man we all learn from our mistakes I had my first and only ND when I was 11 ( I thought my dad was going to beat the snot out of me but he just screamed at me at the top of his lungs and proceded to tell me how ignorant and dangerous I was) and haven't had one since trust me you will be much more careful from now on.

WNTFW
July 30, 2011, 12:03 AM
Nova,
A friend of mine had an ND recently. It was in the airport as he was checking his rifle on his way to Africa. No one got seriously hurt.

People had some real nasty comments on several internet sites. It was on here & got closed.

The manager at the airport was way cooler about it than many of his fellow shooters.

He is a really experienced shooter as is his wife. The ironic thing is to a degree I feel like I contributed in some small way to his ND. I have given several people chamber flags and suggested them to a lot more people. I can't say that I ever told this couple about them. Of course removing the bolt would have been another layer of safety. It should not have happened but it did.

I'm glad you had a lesson and not a tragedy. Sharing the event with us reinforces that ND's can and do happen. Not just to other people.

rikman
July 30, 2011, 12:08 AM
Glad you're ok. #1 always take out gas tank,the magazine #2 rack slide 3 or 4 times and if rounds come flying out,you forgot step #1.

SARDiver
July 30, 2011, 01:03 AM
eeeyea its not part of any process..

Actually, dry firing IS a part of the IDPA unloading process. You're pointing the weapon downrange, but you drop the hammer to ensure the chamber is clear.

Negative habit transfer is a possibility, if you happen to shoot a lot of IDPA.


As to the OP: Good to smarten up, man up, and move on. Oh, and get your wife some flowers or something. :)

NoobCannon
July 30, 2011, 01:58 AM
Been there, done that. I've yet to meet the person who's proud of an AD. God forbid I ever do. Scary thought.

Like they say, there's the people that have had one and there's the people that will have one. Can't be 100% on the ball all the time, no matter how hard we try. We're only human afterall.

Leaky Waders
July 30, 2011, 02:16 AM
"It happens to everyone at some point, and if it doesn't then you're the exception."

No it doesn't.

This thread is an antiloving magnet. Paraphrased it would be viewed as 'It's ok, all of the millions of gun owners in America have their guns sometimes go off randomly within their homes...that's the standard.'

Yes, it's good that the owner was upfront about his actions and non-safe gun handling and had the opportunity to learn from it - no this is not the standard...it does not happen to everyone.

There are cardinal rules for gun handling - all the time! In the blind, in the truck, in your house, in combat - all the time!!

Read your owners manual - frequently if it's a new platform.

These group hug threads do not mitigate your responsibility of pulling a trigger on an 'unloaded' gun. They do however, describe scenarios that others may learn from and hopefully not repeat the same mistake.

mark1616
July 30, 2011, 02:34 AM
I thank God my one and only ND was at the range, with the gun pointing downrange. My mistake was violating rule #3, having my finger on the trigger before I was ready to fire. I had only been shooting for a few days and was shooting a 3.5 lb. Glock trigger for the first time. I was smart enough to be obeying every other rule, notably rule #2, keeping it pointed toward a safe direction (down range), but dumb enough to approach a strange firearm like it was the same as what I was familiar with.

My experience was rather mild compared to OP, but I what I learned has kept me safely shooting for 15 years since.

Thanks for sharing OP

TCU
July 30, 2011, 04:09 AM
I let go of the slide and point the gun toward the TV. My dry fire was not dry - BANG!

This was just Nova's plan to get a new TV, i need to try that one out, but hey at least you got to shoot the gun in the house. Just kidding anyway man its happened to my buddies before, its alright who cares, just a little accident where no one was injured. Hell, it makes a funny story in the future, lighten up on yourself. Sell your guns, thats a little extreme. good judgment comes from experience which comes from bad judgment.

jmresistance
July 30, 2011, 05:04 AM
It's never happened to me, but...

My father-in-law blew a hole in the floor with a 12 ga.

My cousin blew a hole in an ammo crate in the closet with a 20 ga.

A friend was checking out an SKS at my cousin's house when an ND went through the floor and into a recliner in the basement. Luckily no one was sitting in it...

Last but not least, a friend of mine was "dry" firing a new handgun that had one in the chamber when it was brought home from the pawn shop and killed his wife's cat. This happened on the couch, in the living room. That had to be messy...

Luckily no humans were harmed in the learning of these lessons... and no one will miss the cat.

MyGreenGuns
July 30, 2011, 06:05 AM
That was a very foolish thing to do. Im not going to beat you up over it. I hope you learned from it. I'm def not in the camp where "everyone does it once". Ever since my first gun I've been worried about ND and usually double if not triple check my guns before handling them. I also will check the gun YOU just cleared, after its been handed to me, even if I watched you do it. Its probably OCD I know, but I've purposefully programmed myself to do it.

My only time in proximity to a ND was shooting with a friend of mine, and his brother. My friend was USMC and very familiar with firearms. I, foolishly, assumed his brother was also familiar with guns. We had set up a table with the ammo between us. I was on the left shooting toward 11 oclock he (the brother) was on the other side of the table shooting at 1 oclock. After his first volley he stopped to reload. I was hearing this, not seeing it, as I was focused on my target. As he chambered the round, I felt the heat from the flash and a round zipped by my head. I turned and noticed his finger still in the trigger guard, the weapon now pointed near my knees, and the "OMG" look on his face. Obviously, he did not intend to do it. But in my mind he failed to follow the basic rules of shooting. (Keep finger off trigger until ready to fire, never point weapon at anything you are not willing to DESTROY)

I probably responded incorrectly to the event. I pulled my knife and demanded his gun at knife point. He surrendered the weapon and I removed the entire bolt and handed him back the rest. I had driven 45 minutes to get here and finished my shooting session alone, with his bolt assembly in my pocket. My friend and his brother aruged behind me. My friend later apologised to me for even bringing his brother, it was not his fault, I should have assesed his brother's skills before assuming he knew what he was doing.

*NOVA*
July 30, 2011, 07:10 AM
With all due respect, the problem wasn't that the gun was loaded - it was because you handled it incorrectly at the time.

If you keep the guns for home defense, I strongly urge you to keep them loaded. I know from experience that the moment you are forced to react to a possible situation requiring a firearm is not the best time to have to load up. If you insist on keeping them unloaded, please practice loading drills to make sure you can do it reasonably well under stress. The last thing you need is a non-functioning gun in an emergency.
Stored guns are unloaded - HD gun is my GP100 - it is loaded

RichBMW
July 30, 2011, 07:50 AM
Just like a near-miss car accident caused by a foolish driving error should make one a better driver, your accidental discharge should turn you into a better/smarter gun owner.

robhof
July 30, 2011, 08:29 AM
Now for the what could have happened: my 1st permanent assignment in the USAF was Forbes AFB Ks. my room in the barracks had a patch on the wall, the size of a niclke and waist high, as an AMN, surprizingly I had the room to myself. Turns oud a few months earlier the previous resident had been killed by a ND in the next room, through the wall through the liver, stomach, bounce off ribs and lodge in heart. This was in 1971, the gun was an auto, bought from a pawn shop and with a 9mm reload with a bad rim lodged in the chamber. The empty case was still in the chamber. I got the details from a millitary policeman, who was a patient on the ward I worked on, he was one of the responders.

marcrystal
July 30, 2011, 08:37 AM
My "first" negligent discharge would seem to imply you think there might be more ... for your own peace of mind, might want to change that to my "last" or "only" negligent discharge.

On the airport rifle discharge by the African hunter - I don't know what airport he was in when that happened, must have been in Botswana. In the airports I go to (which are numerous) that would land a person in the local hoosegow.

Smokey in PHX
July 30, 2011, 10:45 AM
It is a tragic thing anytime a gun goes off unintentially. It happened to a friend of mine about 40 years ago shortly after we graduated from college. It was one week before his wedding. The bullet hit him in the chin which killed him instantly as he was unloading a 1911.

I would guess less than one percent of the people on this forum have experienced an accidental discharge caused by personal neglect to follow basic safety procedures. There is no excuse for it to happen. It is not OK if someone didn't get hurt. It is not something that happens to everybody or even a few of us.

SaxonPig
July 30, 2011, 12:43 PM
I've done it twice. One was a mechanical failure and the other was me doing pretty much what the OP did with an auto pistol.

But I would caution everyone to be careful about cavalierly throwing around the word "negligent." From my FAQs:

-------------------------------------

AD vs ND.

26. An accident is an unintentional event. When a gun is discharged inadvertently it is an accidental discharge. The use of the term negligent discharge has become popular but in my opinion it is a bad idea. Yes, the vast majority of ADs involve negligence on the part of the operator but negligence is a legal term that assigns responsibility. Describing your unintentional discharge as negligent is admitting guilt to any cop or lawyer who happens to be listening. Until I am certain that I am not being charged with a crime or sued in civil court I prefer to not admit guilt.

SaxonPig
July 30, 2011, 12:47 PM
Smokey in PHX- Must be tough being so perfect. Thanks for your condescending words and attitude. Really helps a lot.

Not every AD is a tragedy. Your friend's certainly was, but most are more embarrassing than tragic.

PS: I bet it's far more than 1%. Jeff Cooper, Skeeter Skelton, and Bill Jordan all experienced ADs (Jordan's was fatal to a fellow BP officer). While it doesn't HAVE to happen to everyone, it certainly CAN happen to anyone. Vigilance, training, care should always reign supreme. But let's not forget that we are humans and humans are not perfect. Well, most of us aren't.

george30
July 30, 2011, 01:49 PM
I don't agree with some people saying that it will happen to most gun owners. I do think that everybody can tend to get complacent with clearing a weapon. A prime example was a story from a retired police officer that was shooting a grendel p30 with friends. He racked the slide 3 times to clear the weapon but due to a bad extractor and not visually checking the chamber it discharged as he was handing the gun to his friend. He handed it to him handle first so he ended up shooting himself in the gut point blank range with a 22 magnum. He was in the hospital for a week and almost died.

Personally I keep every handgun in my house loaded. If I pull one out the mag gets dropped, slide racked a couple times, lock it back and visually check chamber. I thank you and the guy above for posting these stories because people will get complacent, it just happens, but these stories will get everyone to think about it the next time they pull out one of their weapons.

george29
July 30, 2011, 01:53 PM
Everyone has the right to one ND, the second one is CD (criminal discharge).

Leaky Waders
July 30, 2011, 03:26 PM
"Stored guns are unloaded - HD gun is my GP100 - it is loaded."
This mentality will lead to your future thread about accidental discharge....TREAT EVERY GUN AS IF IT'S LOADED!

"Everyone has the right to one ND, the second one is CD (criminal discharge)."
No they don't. People who haven't killed someone with a AD/ND or whatever were lucky.

Let's rephrase you're argument..."Everyone has the right to run over a two year old while backing out of the drive way, the second failure to use the rear view mirrors is criminal."

Gun ownership is a Right with a Burden of Responsibility. Unfortunately accidents do happen - they are not the norm. Fatigue, complacency, fear of asking questions, distractions, are all things that could lead to problems along with a lot of other factors.

Regardless...when YOUR finger is on THAT trigger YOU are RESPONSIBLE for the end result.

SharpsDressedMan
July 30, 2011, 03:32 PM
Unless I missed it, did you ever recover the bullet? Where did it come to rest?

M91/30
July 30, 2011, 03:56 PM
I think you should.

...and the experience should be extra painful.

I'll give you $50 each, and that's more than you deserve.
You best be joking, people like you make me wonder about everyone(you) equally having the right to own firearms.

On topic
It was completely his fault, but I don't look down on it any more then I would any other accident where a person is to blame. I mean think about it, if someone is hiking(inexperienced) and slips down a mountain and almost but doesn't take some with them, would you say "hey, he screwed up. Never should he climb again". Not likely, nobody intentionally makes mistakes. You brush off, asses your mistake, and train yourself. Just be glad nothing else happened. And as others said, its likely something you won't ever do again cause youll remember what happened and hopefully think twice.

sarduy
July 30, 2011, 04:10 PM
since you didn't shot the TV i think you should sit in from of it and practice, practice, practice and practice again and again how to load/unload the pistol with dummy rounds untill you can do it with your eye close...

1. pick it up
2. safety check (do not pull the trigger) "FIRST remove the magazine" and then rack the slide
3. unload it
4. load it
5. let it down
6.Repeat

Old krow
July 30, 2011, 04:47 PM
I don't know if I'll ever have a AD/ND but we aren't perfect.

On a long enough timeline we'll all have an AD/ND. My goal is to live a long and prosperous life, but die before I have one.

Stored guns are unloaded - HD gun is my GP100 - it is loaded

This mentality will lead to your future thread about accidental discharge....TREAT EVERY GUN AS IF IT'S LOADED!

I agree.

we are not amused
July 30, 2011, 05:05 PM
few years ago I had a ND. I and my brothers were shooting our pistols in the driveway, (rural area) and I had pulled out my Mauser C96. I hadn't fired that gun for quite awhile and it as I was trying to pull open the slide to load it, it slipped and fired! It was already loaded and had been for a couple of years!
Why it fired, I am not sure, I am pretty sure I didn't have my finger on the trigger. I think the hammer was not fully cocked, and pulling open the slide pushes the hammer back, and when I let the slide slip, the hammer fell with enough force to fire the weapon. Fortunately, I was not completely brain dead, and while struggling with the recalcitrant slide, I was keeping it pointed in a safe direction, but it scared the heck out of me!
Why was the gun loaded? I have no idea, it was a collector gun, not one I shot regularly, in fact that was the first time I had the gun out in at least a couple of years. When I got home, I immediately checked all of my guns. I never figured out why I hadn't unloaded the gun after I last shot it, but I do make it a point any more to double check all weapons when I put them up. And I am lot more cautious of that Mauser, than I was before!
Having that one ND made me a lot more aware of just how easy it is to have one, if you get careless. I am far more aware of the need to keep a gun pointed in a safe direction, even when you Know it's empty!

rori
July 30, 2011, 05:08 PM
I've had 2, one over 35 years ago with a shotgun that I had purposely pointed straight in the air and fired, thought the chamber was empty but. One just a year ago with a 1911 that I was unloading because I had gotten in my truck and the law in my state is no loaded weapons in the vehicle.Again it was pointed in a safe direction when it went off. You already had one of the basics in that you didn't point it at a person now you have learned a lot more and are a safer person than you were before. Go shooting and enjoy.

ns66
July 30, 2011, 05:30 PM
glad no one was hurt

i have following questions:

1. do you need to report to police if ND happened? law forbids discharge within city limits, will it be trouble if you don't report it but later police found out due to neighbour report?

2. did it damage your ear? i guess gun fire in a room will cause permantent dearing damage? sometimes i even think if there's an intruder i should wear ear muffs if i have enough time...

MyGreenGuns
July 30, 2011, 05:44 PM
AD vs ND.

26. An accident is an unintentional event. When a gun is discharged inadvertently it is an accidental discharge. The use of the term negligent discharge has become popular but in my opinion it is a bad idea. Yes, the vast majority of ADs involve negligence on the part of the operator but negligence is a legal term that assigns responsibility. Describing your unintentional discharge as negligent is admitting guilt to any cop or lawyer who happens to be listening. Until I am certain that I am not being charged with a crime or sued in civil court I prefer to not admit guilt.

To me Accidental Discharge would be a weapon going off from falling or mechanical failure. Negligence is implied since he was handling the weapon. Noone got hurt, that was luck. Being a responsible gun owner means taking the responsibility for your actions, good or bad.

JoeSlomo
July 30, 2011, 06:44 PM
"Stored guns are unloaded - HD gun is my GP100 - it is loaded."


This mentality will lead to your future thread about accidental discharge....TREAT EVERY GUN AS IF IT'S LOADED!

EXACTLY!

THIS mentality is one of the primary differences between those who have had, or WILL have, a negligent discharge, and those that WON'T.

There is NO SUCH THING as an "unloaded firearm" UNTIL it has been PROPERLY CLEARED by the handler. PERIOD.

It doesn't matter if it is YOUR firearm that you have "never" loaded, OR a firearm from the display case at a gun store. ALL firearms get treated the same, as if they were LOADED, until they are properly cleared and confirmed to be unloaded, by EACH handler.

Failure to treat a firearm as if it were loaded, failure to PROPERLY clear a firearm, and failure to protect the trigger are all negligent precursors that will eventually lead to a negligent discharge. ALL are 100% avoidable with discipline and the appropriate mindset.

Russ Jackson
July 30, 2011, 07:09 PM
I worked in gun shops for 10 years. You wouldn't believe how many chambered guns I have cleared that customers brought to the counter telling me they were unloaded. If you don't go through the basics everytime you pick up a gun you should not ever be able to handle it. I don't care if the guy that handed it to you checked while you were watching you should go through the process again. Why would anyone ever point a gun at a TV and pull the trigger? Lucky you didn't kill someone. Seems like you understand what you did. Time will tell. Personally I think you should lose your gun privilages. Nobody in my family has ever had a ND...Russ

Mike1234567
July 30, 2011, 07:16 PM
^^^ Oooo, harsh.

we are not amused
July 30, 2011, 07:25 PM
A bit harsh is an understatement!
Accidents happen!, It is how we deal with them and learn from them that we learn anything!
If you have never had an accident, it is only because you have learned from the accidents of others. And in my opinion, if you think you will never have an accident, you are being overconfident, and setting your self up for an accident.

we are not amused
July 30, 2011, 07:38 PM
Look, *NOVA* made a mistake, he feels bad about, and has been told repeatedly what he did wrong, by helpful people, and how stupid he is by some not so helpful people.
I made a mistake a few years ago in putting up a loaded gun, not realizing it was loaded, and then fumbling around with the thing because I wasn't as familiar with it as I thought.
Others here have also admitted mistakes, I don't think we are all idiots, or hopelessly careless people. We learned from our mistakes. If you are so arrogant to believe you can never make a mistake, then you are not being as safe as you should be.

Russ Jackson
July 30, 2011, 08:08 PM
How many mistakes were made? No disrespect to NOVA here but lets break it down.

Main factor - NOT THINKING / NOT USING MY BRAIN

1. My brain saw the magazine next to the gun - but I had forgotten that the gun came with two magazines.
2. The magazines are painted black. I also had forgotten a decision I had made to have TWO guns ready for home defense in that locker - the revolver and the semi. So my brain tells me the gun has no magazine in it. My brain fails to register there is a magazine inserted! All I'm really thinking about is how much fun it will be to get to the range tomorrow.
3. Dim lighting / impaired vision
4. Lack of experience - it is my first semi-auto pistol

Tired and handling a gun?
Poor lighting and handling a gun?
Can't tell if a magazine is in the firearm.
Has not handled many semi-autos.
Never cleared or checked the weapon. Just picked it up and fired.
Why have a go to gun loaded if you are not comfortable with it?
Why was the trigger pulled in the first place?
Ever been to a gun saftey class? If not then why?
Sorry but I don't understand this brain did'nt see it thing.
I could go on and on. The guy had the balls to tell us about it and said he was ready for the harsh reality of the situation. Hopefully it brings light to some of the novice gun owners on how to handle a gun then the post is helpfull. My Son, Wife, Daughter and anyone handling guns in my home or at the range go through the same process everytime we handle guns. Just like my Father taught me. One must be deligent and complete with this process. If you are not organized when handling a firearm then you should not EVER pick one up. Poor gun handling leads to NDs. Only ND that should ever take place is an equipment malfunction. And if that happens it should go directly to a gunsmith for inspection. Ther are no exception to proper gun handling. I still think NOVA should not handle a firearm. Definately not until he attends several shooting classes....JMHO...Russ

JFtheGR8
July 30, 2011, 09:10 PM
The owner of the store where I got my XD45 told me that the previous owner shot himself in the hand while releasing the slide for disassembly. Don't know if that is true or not but it could happen since you have to pull the trigger to get it free. The gun was like brand new too so someone wanted to get rid of it before really getting it broken in. Be thankful nobody got hurt and learn from it. Thanks for passing on your story too. I am teaching my daughters gun safety and this story will help.

*NOVA*
July 30, 2011, 09:34 PM
Unless I missed it, did you ever recover the bullet? Where did it come to rest?
bullet came to rest in the the wall after shattering the sugar bowl to a million pieces - I'v got some patching to do next time we paint.

And as for the one who posted EVERY GUN IS LOADED after I said "...stored guns are unloaded." Its a fact. Yeah I get your point, believe me. Now next time you pick up a gun and personally check it you can say with confidence that it is unloaded. Next time I open the store locker you can bet your sweet bippy I'm gong to make sure the guns are STILL UNLOADED. I stand by my statement. The stored guns are unloaded - its my new rule, no exceptions. It does not in any way negate your mindset - you mindset is my mindset as well!

*NOVA*
July 30, 2011, 09:45 PM
glad no one was hurt

i have following questions:

1. do you need to report to police if ND happened? law forbids discharge within city limits, will it be trouble if you don't report it but later police found out due to neighbour report?

2. did it damage your ear? i guess gun fire in a room will cause permantent dearing damage? sometimes i even think if there's an intruder i should wear ear muffs if i have enough time...
I did report it to my neighbor minutes afterward and asked her to call her husband, a deputy sheriff in our jurisdiction. Later that night he came by and I told him everything.

And yes, there was ringing in my ears for a few hours. Gone now. Ear muffs - I think its a good idea while training, but in home defense or self defense it would be one of the least of my concerns. I would want to hear every footstep an intruder makes toward my door. (sounds like a good subject for a new thread)

we are not amused
July 30, 2011, 10:18 PM
"I still think NOVA should not handle a firearm"

According to your opinion almost nobody who has responded on this site should handle a firearm.
Okay, we have your opinion, fortunately most of us regard it as an important learning experience, rather than eternal condemnation.
I want to repeat myself, perhaps a little more clearly.
If you believe you could never make a mistake like that, you are not being safe!
Arrogantly assuming you will never make a mistake is one of the conditions that lead to mistakes! Some of the biggest names in firearms and police and personal defense training, have had ND's sometime in their life! Should they all be disarmed too?

NOVA, take it as a valuable learning experience, as I hope all of us who have had them did. Pay attention to the good advice, and let the rest of it slide.
Seeing you are from Virginia, it is unlikely we will ever meet, but if we did, I would gladly go shooting with you.

MedWheeler
July 30, 2011, 11:23 PM
Russ also believes anyone who has ever exceeded the posted speed limit or broken any other traffic law (or safety practice) while behind the wheel should immediately surrender his or her driver's license.

NavyLCDR
July 30, 2011, 11:37 PM
dryfiring is not part of the unloading process.
eeeyea its not part of any process..

Really?!? That's very interesting. Do you read the manuals that come with your guns? Do you own a CZ75? Have you read the manual for it?

http://www.czub.cz/zbrojovka/cz-manual/Instruction-Manual-CZ-75-SP-01.pdf

Unloading the Pistol
ALWAYS MAKE SURE THE PISTOL IS POINTED IN A SAFE DIRECTION!
Remove the magazine
Draw back the slide and verify the last cartridge has been extracted
from the chamber and ejected
Let the slide snap fully forward
Depress the trigger (dry fire)

Right there on page 24. The problem is the OP missed the first step.

The problem is that he missed step one of the process.

Bozwell
July 30, 2011, 11:50 PM
Glad to hear no one got hurt. I'm sure you'll be more careful from now on and hopefully others (including myself!) will be too after reading your story. At the end of the day, we're all human and mistakes happen. Thanks for sharing what happened.

JTHunter
July 31, 2011, 12:27 AM
Nova - glad to hear that nobody was hurt. Your story serves as a good reminder that accidents happen, and most are caused by inadequate thinking (something we ALL should do more).

Old krow
July 31, 2011, 12:51 AM
Yeah I get your point, believe me. Now next time you pick up a gun and personally check it you can say with confidence that it is unloaded.

That's really more splitting hairs than anything else. That statement holds true provided that the gun is in my hand, I cleared it properly, and the gun has not left my hand. The moment that it is no longer in my hand, it's loaded. I clear every gun that goes into storage before I put them away. When I open it up, every gun in there is loaded. If you're checking every gun before it goes in and checking it again as soon as you have retrieved it, the outcome is the same.

"I still think NOVA should not handle a firearm"

According to your opinion almost nobody who has responded on this site should handle a firearm.

In all fairness, add the next line...

Definately not until he attends several shooting classes

That's not that bad is it? Well, not AS bad anyway. I'm not really trying to start an argument with you, but, if we all use that train of though, wouldn't we all seek training if we had an ND/AD? If I admit that I am capable of making a mistake, and a mistake is made, couldn't I reasonably assume that I should seek safety beyond beyond what I was able to give myself? If I am to strive to be a safer person by admitting that I am capable of a mistake, shouldn't that at least be an option worth evaluating?

It's a learning process, albeit maybe out of order. Re-evaluate and move on.

Mike1234567
July 31, 2011, 12:57 AM
Not all mistakes require re-training other than practice, practice, practice... slow down, think, practice some more... until it's deeply ingrained in every move. This is what I did when I dropped my loaded Kel-Tec. I also stopped keeping a round chambered in that gun even though it's a HD/SD pistol. I'm currently searching for a suitable replacement that won't discharge if dropped should I be so careless again... not likely but I never say never anymore.

TCU
July 31, 2011, 11:03 AM
Russ also believes anyone who has ever exceeded the posted speed limit or broken any other traffic law (or safety practice) while behind the wheel should immediately surrender his or her driver's license. FOREVER!!!!! ah haha. No but really, accidents happen. Im sure he does know what hes doing, just made a mistake. So for him to go to multiple shooting classes to hear the same basics over and over is excess punishment, just my opinion. The accidents are what you learn from.

22-rimfire
July 31, 2011, 11:19 AM
OK, I am bracing myself for a lot of harsh criticsm out there and I deserve it...

You probably got enough of it already. Spank yourself and move on. Don't do it again.

Russ Jackson
July 31, 2011, 11:42 AM
I do think someone that gets a DUI should lose there license for atleast a year. A second offense would be life without driving.

An accidental discharge like this one could have been avoided by doing just the basics. You are assuming that the poster has learned a lesson and will not do it again. Looking at the post there were way too many violations in the way he handled the firearm, timing, tired, failure to inspect, poor lighting, pointing of the gun in an unsafe direction, pulling the trigger for no reason, unfamiliar with semi autos, etc... So many rules of proper firearm handling have been violated. So many that it would leave the reader to come up with only one conclusion: This individual has no training whatsoever and desperately needs it. Would you give the keys to a car or motorcycle to someone who drove around the block once and tell them to drive you and your family around town. Guns are serious business with serious ramifications when handled improperly. Would you be saying the same things to me if you lived next door to this guy and the bullet went racing through your house. If he lived next door to me we would have a serious issue. This everybody has a ND eventually is nuts. I am betting that 99.99% of all NDs could be avoided by following the basics. For those of you whom have had one. Knowing what you know now. Could that mistake be made again? If you were properly trained and took the necessary precautions would it have happened in the first place? You don't walk out of the house naked. YOU SHOULD NEVER HANDLE A GUN THAT HAS NOT BEEN CLEARED FIRST! NO EXCEPTIONS! Someone will get killed. I would go to the range with NOVA. Spend a few hours cleaning, assembling and dissassembling guns, proper handling and loading, reading of the owners manual, hand and finger placement, safe pointing, how to put a gun lock on a pistol, and then some shooting. Maybe my viewpoint is too drastic. But guns are serious. Wake up take advise, don't make excuses for stupidity, act like someone mature enough to handle a firearm...Russ

22-rimfire
July 31, 2011, 11:53 AM
I do think someone that gets a DUI should lose there license for at least a year.

Depends on the history and blood alchohol content as far as I'm concerned. No, I have never had a DUI. The current standard is too low and the punishment too severe. It captures folks that barely drink and then head home. The real affenders should be soundly punished, but I feel the first offense shoud just be a spanking. Second offense, over night in jail mandatory. Third offence.... driving restrictions and jail time.

Guns... ALWAYS ALWAYS check to see if a gun is loaded before handling it. Drop the magazine and rack the slide and check it again if you re-insert it.... Period. Check 2x is my rule before any handling beyond picking it up. Same goes with rifles and revolvers. It is easy to get too casual with firearms. If you don't understand how something functions.... don't handle it.

AND... no "HOPEFULLY my last" stuff... it was your last PERIOD.

Mike1234567
July 31, 2011, 11:58 AM
...You don't walk out of the house naked...
What's wring with that?:confused::uhoh:

gym
July 31, 2011, 01:07 PM
I keep all my guns loaded for 40 years, "Pistols,"I also keep them in holsters strategiclly places through the house. If I have company Like today, My 2 grandkids are over with their parents, Everything gets locked up except 1 gun that stays on my person.
I have never picked up a gun and fired it for no reason, unless I was working on it, either adjusting the trigger polishing etc. An unloaded gun is like not having one. There are a tremendous amount of "new shooters" out there who just don't have the time or experience that goes along with firearm ownership.
I can't say "this could happen to anyone, only because it just violates so many rules.
I think that perhaps a new shooter shuld not load a semi auto handgun unless he is going to shoot it. This would avoid a large amount of the problem, clear the handgun, retract the slide and leave a mag neer the gun. If you need it all you have to do is pop in the mag and release the slide, "1 second". this way you can see chamber is empty and this will remove any question weather it was loaded or if one was in the pipe. Dry firing when in bed is reminisent of a kid with a new toy, who can't wait to get it unwrapped and play with it. You will get over this soon, you may vever forget it and this will make you a safer shooter, as no feeling in the world will snap your but back to reality like a gun going off in a house. Learn to forgive yourself, as you are not the only guy or gal who ever did this, it will give you a new respect for guns. And remid the wife next time she backs the truck into a pole or garage door, that stuff happens. Don't cower over it, and don't allow it to become the topic of conversation for the next 6 months or every time you make a mistake having it brought up. I don't know what kind of wife you have, but most of them like to have something they can bring up in social situations if they have a few too many or just are angry about something unrelated. If that happens, make sure you nip it in the bud. You already confessed your sins here and it's done.

Ramone
July 31, 2011, 01:47 PM
I have had some version of the four rules drummed into my head from an early age, and it's usually been stressed that they are interlocking- break one, and the others will keep you safe. this was a good example of missing two- Clearing the weapon being the functional part of rule one.

I was raised to work the action TWICE when clearing a weapon- everyone in my family does it- and I have had a lot of people comment on it. It took me years to realise that it was for just this reason.

I also have three designated 'Safe Directions' in my Apartment- the side of a bookshelf (so the round would have to penetrate about three feet of hardcovers), a spot on a wall backed by a linen closet and the water heater closet before a brick chimney, and the closet door in my bedroom, where an old USMC Vest and a Second Chance Vest hang on the inside of the door. It's a small apartment, and all of the spots are convenient to the places I am likely to be handling a weapon. They are marked 'best of the day' used targets.

I haven't had a ND yet, nor a AD, though I did once fire down range on a cold line (everyone was back up, and I thought it had been called hot again- it hadn't!). Life being what it is, I assume that at some point I will have an ND- I know too many good gunnies who have done it.

Good on you, Nova, and just let it be you guide of 'things NOT to do'. Go forth, and sin no more.

PavePusher
July 31, 2011, 03:33 PM
dryfiring is not part of the unloading process.
...unless you are using a clearing barrel.

Why, why, why, do people not have and use this $5 safety device?!?!

PavePusher
July 31, 2011, 03:34 PM
What's wring with that?:confused::uhoh:
Heh... "Good fences make good neighbors."

Loosedhorse
July 31, 2011, 06:39 PM
hopefully my lastHope is not a strategy. What are you willing to do differently, everytime you handle a gun, to MAKE this ND your last?Next time I open the store locker you can bet your sweet bippy I'm gong to make sure the guns are STILL UNLOADED. Great start. Might I suggest, every time you pick up a gun, check if it's unloaded. Then check again, or have someone else check. Every time.It happens to everyone at some pointNO!!! Worst possible attitude, IMHO.

NDs are NOT a matter of time. They are a matter of carelessness. Saying "they happen to everyone" is not only untrue, it is a way to avoid full responsibility for causing it: if it "just happens to everyone," then it's not that bad, right?

They do not happen to everyone; they happen to everyone whose habits and practices allow them to happen. Period.

snatale42
July 31, 2011, 08:15 PM
At least the cops didn't come banging down the door! I know a lot of the Fairfax cops can be on the Anti side when it comes to crap like that. :cuss:

TCU
August 1, 2011, 07:06 AM
You don't walk out of the house naked

haha, thats what you think. Ok Russ i can agree somewhat, i have never had an ND and have put copius ammounts of metal downrange. The thing you are trying to get across in Situational awareness (SA). If you know exactly what is going on and know what needs to be done to ensure that safety is not compromised, then you are good. My firearms are stored in condition 3, i can respond quickly if necessary and put them into 1. I would never rack the slide back then pop one off either. But some people dont go through proper training so yes i think they should understand the machine, but i dont believe in excessive punishment. People need to be guided.

Sav .250
August 1, 2011, 07:11 AM
Lesson learned! Keep those glasses handy. :)

duns
August 1, 2011, 07:28 AM
You pointed it at the TV? Weren't you trained never to point it at something you weren't willing to destroy? :D

Seriously, I bet you will no longer be complacent about guns and will be safer than many who have yet to have their first ND.

Your mistake was relying on memory rather than checking your gun status thoroughly. I made the exact same mistake once. Made a crater in the kitchen floor tile.

Geckgo
August 1, 2011, 07:40 AM
I read about the first page of comments and that pretty much sums it up I think. Just wanted to thank you for sharing, some of us read these threads to remind us that NDs can and do happen. For me, my biggest risk right now is decocking a little semi-22 that I have, so I finally decided that it was too much trouble and too much chance of me having the firing pin safety fail and dropping the hammer a little too hard, so now I keep it safety off and decocked with a round in the chamber. I'm sure cocking it will be plenty fast enough for anything I need a 22 for.

Know your limits. If you want to practice dryfire, specially with a semi, you have to be careful. If I set mine down while dryfiring, I run through my whole routine again when I pick it back up before I resume. Hopefully I will never have an ND, thanks to learning from stories like this and keeping the THR ND post-it notes in my head.

SleazyRider
August 1, 2011, 08:00 AM
Thanks largely to The High Road, I became rededicated to firearms safety several years ago; after all, it is said that a wise man learns from his mistakes, but a wiser man learns from the mistakes of others. One of the things I did was to purchase a package of bright orange nylon wire ties from the electrical department at Home Despot. I keep one inserted through the ejection port, chamber, and barrel of each of my semi-automatics (rifles, pistols, shotguns) as an empty chamber/range flag, but only after I've cleared the magazine. When I pick up a firearm, I still continue to handle and check it as if it were loaded, but the chamber flag gives me some extra peace of mind when casing/uncasing a gun on a trip to the range or inventorying my guns in the safe.

Nova is a stand-up guy in my book.

heeler
August 1, 2011, 09:20 AM
I usually dont comment on this types of threads but I will this time.
I am happy no one was injured or killed.
And I am confident that it will be a very long time, if in fact ever again, Nova makes this type of mistake with a firearm.
All one has to do is think about the consequences of what could have been the result of an unintended discharge in a home setting to sober one up that handling a firearm is serious business.
I personally have never had an AD/ND but I have known of a few cases and have witnessed some very careless handling of firearms in times past.
Everyone just needs to think more and remember the rules of firearm safety.

Mike1234567
August 1, 2011, 10:31 AM
I read a few years ago that someone aimed and discharged an "unloaded" rifle at the family dog. Killed the poor thing. Very sad.

quatin
August 1, 2011, 10:37 AM
When checking for a loaded round, rack the slide several times rapidly.

GLOOB
August 1, 2011, 03:23 PM
When checking for a loaded round, rack the slide several times rapidly.
I don't get this. Why must it be more than twice, and why rapidly? Isn't it better to do it slow enough to look and feel for live rounds? Afraid that racking it too slow will jam the gun? Don't want that to happen, now do we? Gotta be sure that round feeds perfectly.

Mike1234567
August 1, 2011, 03:26 PM
^^^ This and don't forget to hold the bolt back and do a VISUAL inspection as well.

FourTeeFive
August 1, 2011, 03:28 PM
I personally rack back the slide and engage the slide lock. Then you can do a visual inspection for a round in the chamber and to see light through the magazine well. A physical inspection (feeling for both) is also a good idea.

jon_in_wv
August 1, 2011, 03:36 PM
Don't feel so bad. One day before heading to the range I took my FEG PJK-9HP out of the safe to decide if I wanted to take it with. I racked the slide and pulled the trigger. The loud BANG reminded me I had left a loaded magazine in the weapon. Ugh. I shot my gun safe but managed to hit nothing else. Thank God I didn't hit my new water heater right next to my safe. My wife and kids were home at the time. I yelled up the stairs to tell them it was an accident and I was alright. The response I got was, "Did you say something?". "Nope" I replied! Somehow no one even heard it.

NavyLCDR
August 1, 2011, 05:00 PM
I don't get this. Why must it be more than twice, and why rapidly?

Because it is TACTICOOL! :)

blowfeld
August 1, 2011, 06:50 PM
I did this once. I had an uzi open bolt and was trying to see if the new mag worked in the gun. It was before snap caps and I used you guessed it real ammo. My hand slipped and it fired a round. My wife was on the phone next to the room I was in. Bullet went through two walls and missed a window. My neighbors sons 100k motor home was parked outside. I don't know if it hit it but I never heard anything. I have since kept to my rule that I never use real ammo when playing with a gun in the house. And if for some reason I do have to I point it at the floor in the bottom most part of the home so if it goes bang its only a damaged pc. of sheet rock.

SARDiver
August 1, 2011, 08:20 PM
SOme of you guys have some scary stories, but you learned.

I actually had some knucklehead at my local range pull out a weapon behind me (a 1911...hammer was down). I reacted by telling him in no uncertain terms to put the damned thing down and keep it boxed until he was at the firing line. He told me, "It's unloaded. I just got it." Never wanted to hit someone so badly in my life (without actually hitting them, that is).

This guy then walked up close to the firing line, and while someone else was in front of him, chambered a round. He was going to wait patiently for his turn to shoot, so he then brings his hand, holding the weapon, to the small of his back and points the muzzle back towards me.

I put daughter in the truck, moved away from her, and proceeded to tell this idiot what he could do with his pistol.

Sometimes, stupidity seems to know no bounds. THAT guys is never going to learn, and thought I was being skittish for pointing out what an ass he was.

KaintGetwright
August 1, 2011, 08:59 PM
It was a post just like this one that first brought me to the High Road years ago from a Google search. The frankness of the poster and rational responses convinced me to stay and eventually even make a few comments. Makes me glad to see the thread play out the same way as my first with a mix of gentle understanding and critical but constructive advice.

lizziedog1
August 1, 2011, 09:03 PM
Isn't it safer to handle firearms outside with the muzzle pointed into soft ground? If you then have an accidental firing, the harm would be minimized. I keep my in home handling to an absolute minimum. If I need to operate a gun I go into my backyard and point the muzzle into the lawn. I might harm some earthworms or disturb some ants, but humans and pets should be safe.

heeler
August 1, 2011, 09:34 PM
Good point Lizzie.
In fact after cleaning my concealed carry I go out to the backyard to rack a hot round in the chamber with the muzzle pointing straight down to Mother earth.
It's just my way.

lizziedog1
August 2, 2011, 06:47 AM
Thanks, I get lucky every now and than,

I know folks that take out their handguns and practice pointing them at their televisions. Yes, I know that handling leads to better shooting.

But I was thought to never point any gun at any object I don't tend to put a whole through.

I also believe that alot of informal handling might lead to some complacency on the part of the handler.

I have never had an AD/ND. I hope never to. I guess it might eventually happen to me. But if it does, I hope the muzzle is not pointing at a loved one or valuable object.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 2, 2011, 01:57 PM
One of my friends accidentally shot his gunsafe while clearing his Makarov, racked it then removed the magazine. He has been around guns all his life and is getting close to turning 70, do you think he shouldn't own guns anymore Russ Jackson? Is everyone in your family perfect? I'm yet to have a AD/ND but I know I'm not perfect and may have one eventually.

gym
August 2, 2011, 02:18 PM
I think we have more people in FL hitting the gas pedal instead of the brake, to worry about than a 70 year old having an ad/nd. It has nothing to do wit his age, he just screwed up. I sit many times on the floor by my safe wiping down or otherwise changing holsters etc. There is no one home I have silence and focus, but anyone can make a mistake. A few months ago I got side tracked because I didn't follow my own rules about not answering my wife when I am messing with cleaning guns, and she sidetracked me, at the last second I decided to pull that slide back once more and bingo, live round in there. I caught it, but only because I am anal about rechecking over and over again. It could have turned out different, I dropped the mag but apparentlly she was jabbering, I got up for something and almost forgot to clear the chamber when i came back. She caught me in between my protocals. Best thing is be alone when you do this stuff.
Another tip I found after I turned 60, was , do your work with guns early in the day. As we age we just get naturally tired and not as sharp at 10PM as 10 AM. I don't mess with anything electrcal or mechanical like I used to. I found I could be troubleshooting a computer late at night,"i would stay up till it was done". I screwed up more simple things that took me 5 minutes the following morning to do. Now I realize that and don't fret over it, I know I can fix about anything I have as long as my brain is fresh. Same as what happened to the op, in a sense, wait till you are up and had your coffee before messing with firearms.

GLOOB
August 3, 2011, 08:26 AM
There are a heck a lot of people here reporting ND's after racking the slide.

And that's because racking the slide is exactly how one LOADS a gun.

To check if it's unloaded, either pull it back just far enough to look in the chamber. Or pull it all the way back and look in the chamber and magwell, then lower it slowly while continuing to look in the chamber to make sure it is STILL empty after you've closed the slide.

Never rack it and let the slide slam home or use the slide release. Ever see that safety video made by the only guy in the room professional enough to handle the Glock fo-tay?

Mike1234567
August 3, 2011, 08:51 AM
There's a LGS in which the folks showing semi-auto pistols perform two very quick "partial" racks of the slide with the mag installed and without doing a visual inspection. Then they hand the pistol to the customer to fondle. All three employees I spoke with showed pistols exactly the same way indicating, to me, that this is how the owner or manager wants them to do it. I won't mention the LGS' name to avoid dirty-ing its reputation.

209
August 3, 2011, 12:36 PM
I may have had a ND once back in the 80's, but the gun was also malfunctioning so I'll never know for sure. But I treat it as an NG and make extra effort to never come close to the same situation. Either way, it was bad weapons handling on my point and I have a different way of doing things.

I have been guilty of bad gun safety in the past however and darn near could have died once or twice because of it- mostly in the military. All I can assume was that it wasn't my time and I was spared. Each time, I walked away with a valuable lesson and strive never ever to repeat those lapses.

mgmorden
August 3, 2011, 01:24 PM
dryfiring is not part of the unloading process.

If you compete in shooting sports it is.

Range commands: "If finished, unload and show clear.", following by, "If clear, hammer down and holster.". Hammer down is a dry-fire. No use of decockers permitted and even if it's a striker fired gun you still have to go "striker down".

Most guys that I know that have been shooting in such events for a while basically do this as second nature even when not on a stage. When the gun is unloaded, they dry-fire the gun.

Obviously though, the clear in this case wasn't verified.

EVIL
August 3, 2011, 03:16 PM
Way to man-up and learn from the situation.

Never had a ND, but I once accidently locked one of our cats in the gunsafe for over a day. Remarkably, the cat did not urinate or deficate in the safe (my first concern ;) ), however it did scratch up the safe lining on the corner, trying to "escape." The cat doesn't go anywhere near the safe now, so who says cats can't be trained. :evil:

Wife was not happy about this occurance and my lack of situational awareness ... but she got over it.

Russ Jackson
August 3, 2011, 03:51 PM
One of my friends accidentally shot his gunsafe while clearing his Makarov, racked it then removed the magazine. He has been around guns all his life and is getting close to turning 70, do you think he shouldn't own guns anymore Russ Jackson? Is everyone in your family perfect? I'm yet to have a AD/ND but I know I'm not perfect and may have one eventually.

I really dont think age has anything to do with it. Was it caused by him dry firing a loaded weapon? Was is caused by somethig wrong with the gun? There are rules one must follow when handling guns. When I am handling guns at home it is on a bench with a mat. I have very good lighting. Nobody would disturb me. 1 at a time. Organized and in order. Everything has a place and purpose. I would never handle guns when tired or upset. This makes the chance of a ND even lower. Dry firing a gun into an open space is a ND that could never happen to me. I cannot understand what would posess someone to dry fire a gun at a TV, wall, or someothe object aside from maybe a bullet trap or sand bucket. I think following the same routine is paramount when handling firearms. Just my opinion.

Because someone has been handling guns for a longtime it doesnt give them a pass for negligence....Russ

heeler
August 3, 2011, 04:01 PM
Well I will say this Russ.
It was not uncommon during the 60's or 70's that some gun writers advised to dry fire your deer rifle at fast flash images at the television to get used to quick target and firing aquistion.
I STILL do it in my own home.
And I positively know the rifle/pistol is UNLOADED.
I have been handling and owning firearms since the early 1960's and have never once in my life had an AD/ND even when I was in my sub teens hunting and plinking with the .22 rifle.
You have to think and remember your safety lessons.
Not everything is carved into stone.

Russ Jackson
August 3, 2011, 04:09 PM
Well I will say this Russ.
It was not uncommon during the 60's or 70's that some gun writers advised to dry fire your deer rifle at fast flash images at the television to get used to quick target and firing aquistion.
I STILL do it in my own home.
And I positively know the rifle/pistol is UNLOADED.
I have been handling and owning firearms since the early 1960's and have never once in my life had an AD/ND even when I was in my sub teens hunting and plinking with the .22 rifle.
You have to think and remember your safety lessons.
Not everything is carved into stone.

Maybe its because I have been a fan of the Detroit Lions since the 60s and the thought of shooting the TV has crossed my mind several. So I lied. I have thought about it. But then again maybe not because I was not thinking of Dry Firing...Russ

amflyer
August 3, 2011, 04:19 PM
OK, two points, one of which should make you feel at least a bit better:

Colonel Jeff Cooper advocated four basic rules of gun handling, which are oft-quoted and considered pretty inviolable:

1. All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.

2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)

3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule. Its violation is directly responsible for about 60 percent of inadvertent discharges.

4. Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified.

According to these rules, you failed to follow #1 at least. Maybe 2 and 4 if you didn't really want to break the sugar bowl or weren't sure you were covering it. But at least you weren't pointing it at anything TRULY important.


Secondly, and this is the part that should make you feel better, is a story that was told by a close friend of the Colonel's.

Jeff had a nice, shiny S & W Mod. 29. One day, in the company of this friend, he was going on about the lovely trigger action that it had. Cocking the hammer, he took careful aim at a gas meter outside his house through the window. I'm sure he was thinking, "Front sight, presss."

BANG!

He drilled the gas meter, right where he was aiming. According to the teller of the story, he sheepishly muttered something about this "happening to OTHER people." The last part of the story was that there was talk of having the plugged meter face bronzed and presented to the Colonel as a trophy.

So...things happen, but they happen to a lot of people. Don't do it again.

SSN Vet
August 3, 2011, 04:36 PM
Observation #1

The OP, like many, many others out there, either didn't know, or forgot (spaced it, whatever) how to check a semi-auto clear.

step 1. Drop mag.
step 2. Cycle slide and check chamber.

If you skip one of those two steps, or if you do them in the wrong order, you have NOT checked the weapon clear and may very likely be holding a loaded weapon when you are done.

Observation #2

Pulling the trigger to drop the hammer (especially when indoors) is imo. a bad habbit.

My personal rule is that I do not dry fire indoors unless it is for a specific purpose I need to accomplish, and then I am very deliberate and careful (i.e. tripple check, remove ammo. from area, etc...)

Observation #3

For several years, I have studied every ND story I can with great interest (because I want to get the lesson learned and avoid having an ND myself). I am convinced that the #1 root cause is guys playing with guns (i.e. fondling, "training", obsessing over, etc.... whatever you want to call the unnecessary handling).

Observation #4

There are a lot of nice guys on this forum who don't really know you, but none the less are happy to say "don't worry about it" or "don't beat yourself up" or "it happens to everyone eventually" ...

Though I've never had a AD or ND myself, I sympithize with the OPs situation. And while I'm not going to hit a guy when he's down.... I think slapping yourself on the forehead a few times is an appropriate response. Whenever I perform a major screw up in life.... I don't let myself off the hook very easilly as a sufficient amount of self flagulation and trauma goes a long ways towards not making the same mistake again.

VT Deer Hunter
August 3, 2011, 04:57 PM
Well at least no one was hurt.

Candyman
August 3, 2011, 05:13 PM
The good thing about the ND club is that very few of us do it twice. I had mine many, many years ago and like yours (thankfully) nothing was damaged that could not be easily repaired/replaced. As shameful as this is to say, that incident made me a much safer gun owner.

jon_in_wv
August 3, 2011, 08:09 PM
I guess I'm the exception because the two NDs I've had were both in the last two years. I was REALLY shaken by the second one (the first was a bad sear in a 1911) as it was 100% my fault and I have become a much safer gun owner because of it.

Lonestar49
August 3, 2011, 09:10 PM
...

I'm sure all the bases of safety have been covered but 2 things..

When you first wake-up is not the_time to handle/play with a new toy i.e. gun..

Second, like it or not, I don't, but when handling a weapon, it's best to have "clear vision" so always put those glasses on first, as this may, well, have let you "see" the loaded mag and bullet rdy to go..

But the worst part -

Well, after the round went off of course the wife woke up, realized almost instantly what I had done - I was in shock and speechless for a minute but managed to stammer that its ok I had an accident but not hurt. She gets out of bed, surveys the damage and in typical New York City GIRL fashion (I married a smart woman)

*she proceeds to inform me that I am the DUMBEST person she has ever met in her entire life! And at the moment I was convinced she was right...




* Between your reaction and hers - it's been handled


Alert mind and clear vision is a must (chking out any weapon) vs the real deal of being woken up/startled and grabbing one of your HD guns - but ya got to "ID" the target first, no matter.. not to mention "where will the bullet/s go IF ya miss ?

Them is, 2 of the 4, rules of safety, the oath, we all swear by -

Raise your right hand and repeat after me - ;)


Ls

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 3, 2011, 09:47 PM
I really dont think age has anything to do with it. Was it caused by him dry firing a loaded weapon? Was is caused by somethig wrong with the gun? There are rules one must follow when handling guns. When I am handling guns at home it is on a bench with a mat. I have very good lighting. Nobody would disturb me. 1 at a time. Organized and in order. Everything has a place and purpose. I would never handle guns when tired or upset. This makes the chance of a ND even lower. Dry firing a gun into an open space is a ND that could never happen to me. I cannot understand what would posess someone to dry fire a gun at a TV, wall, or someothe object aside from maybe a bullet trap or sand bucket. I think following the same routine is paramount when handling firearms. Just my opinion.

Because someone has been handling guns for a longtime it doesnt give them a pass for negligence....Russ

He was dropping the hammer to put it away he just racked the slide than dropped the magazine. Hes never had a ND before till he unloaded in the wrong order which hes never done before. So I'm guessing you've never made a mistake in you're life. Wonder how it must feel to go through life knowing that you're perfect.

punchdrunk
August 3, 2011, 10:29 PM
They got four rules because you might make a mistake and break one or two of them... but to hurt someone you have to break just about all of them at the same time. Thats why I hate seeing anyone deliberately break the rules. Ie muzzle control on a empty gun. Drives me nuts getting swept by those "empty" guns.

thefamcnaj
August 3, 2011, 11:06 PM
Relax and take a deep breath and be thankful no one was hurt. Don't sale your guns and go to the range tomorrow and enjoy yourself. Your not the first person to have an AD/ND and unfortunately you won't be the last. If clearing a weapon always always drop the mag first. Ive had semi's for a long time and I stilll to this day drop the mag and rack the slide three times and lock it back on the 4th time. Then I take my trusty ole bore light and look in the chamber. I know its a little over the top but you can never be to care ful when it comes to gun saftey. Keep your head up.

rogerjames
August 3, 2011, 11:30 PM
I haven't read ANY of the comments to your original post because I'm sure you've heard it all and I didn't want to influence my own response...

But my immediate, emotional response after reading your post is... you should not own a gun.

YOU are the example that every liberal, anti-gun fanatic will use to support their bs, and unfortunately, you are giving them ammo :|

The ONLY reason you won't be in the news... is because you didn't actually kill anyone.

Why the F are you pulling the trigger with a loaded magazine, even if you pretend to think you know the chamber is empty? What are you trying to shoot at the tv?

Seriously bro... I'm glad nobody was hurt, but... I was a newbie a few years ago and I have never done anything that stupid... maybe because I did a lot of reading and education before I put a loaded weapon in my hand.

That's the least you owe the rest of us before you unintentionally represent the rest of by becoming a legal gun owner.

Ok... I'm cooling down now.

GLOOB
August 4, 2011, 05:49 AM
After the chamber/magwell check, the gun should be empty. But there's nothing wrong with doing a press check before intentionally pulling the trigger.

I like the press check, because it's simpler. You just have to see the empty chamber, only.

Getting in the habit of fully racking the slide then immediately pulling the trigger just to hear it click is bad juju.

Russ Jackson
August 4, 2011, 08:46 AM
He was dropping the hammer to put it away he just racked the slide than dropped the magazine. Hes never had a ND before till he unloaded in the wrong order which hes never done before. So I'm guessing you've never made a mistake in you're life. Wonder how it must feel to go through life knowing that you're perfect.

I don't even know the person nor the situation. But dropping a hammer while inserting it into the safe could never happen. Because the hammer woud have been dropped on the bench. It would have been secured in its box, holster, or sock and placed in the safe. Maybe I take this stuff to serious. I just gave my opinion. I meant no malice....Russ

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 4, 2011, 10:11 AM
I don't even know the person nor the situation. But dropping a hammer while inserting it into the safe could never happen. Because the hammer woud have been dropped on the bench. It would have been secured in its box, holster, or sock and placed in the safe. Maybe I take this stuff to serious. I just gave my opinion. I meant no malice....Russ

It was his carry piece so he couldn't drop it on the bench.

gym
August 4, 2011, 11:41 AM
He was never educated properlly, that's what caused it. My family "uncles" all passed on now, were all in the Marines Army navy or Air force. We had it all covered. if you didn't check a gun "even if it was cleared in front of you", you automatically got a slap. It only took me seeing my cousin get knocked off the chair once to make sure I never did that. It becomes engrained in your head at an early age if you were lucky enough to come from a family of hunters and competition shooters. there is a big difference going into the world of firarms, if you had no upbringing around them.I don't know if the op did or didn't have a background like this or not, but generally speaking to a lot of people who just decided they were going to get a gun, "because it's popular now", they don't have that boomer family gun tradition thing that many of us were lucky to have, when everyone went into the military before us. There was a time when every able bodied man could shoot a rifle of pistol which caused that old Japanese saying about an American with a rifle behind every blade of grass. Now not so much, many kids have been taught to hate guns, we need to work on that.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 4, 2011, 12:18 PM
He was in the Navy for a few years, actually did secret airborn (in a aircraft, not something like a Navy SEAL) reconnaissance missions.

To just assume that he was never educated properly is just stupid, he made a mistake after having close to 70 years of safe gun handling which I bet is longer than you have been alive.

Lonestar49
August 4, 2011, 02:01 PM
...

He was never educated properly, that's what caused it.



Agree with above "getting educated" And adding to that -


I don't even know the person nor the situation. But dropping a hammer while inserting it into the safe could never happen. Because the hammer would have been dropped on the bench. It would have been secured in its box, holster, or sock and placed in the safe. Maybe I take this stuff to serious. I just gave my opinion. I meant no malice...



Maybe we should include (start) with "using the decocker" vs "dropping the hammer" as the 2, methods/sayings, have very different uses and results.. :cool: "should have "decocked the hammer"



Ls

Russ Jackson
August 4, 2011, 02:52 PM
He was in the Navy for a few years, actually did secret airborn (in a aircraft, not something like a Navy SEAL) reconnaissance missions.

To just assume that he was never educated properly is just stupid, he made a mistake after having close to 70 years of safe gun handling which I bet is longer than you have been alive.

Nobody knows this individual but yourself. How could we determine wether his mind has gotten to a point where he is forgetfull or negligent about handling firearms? I would leave that decision to his family. My Mother is 80 right now and drives fine. But the time will come when we will need to take the keys from her. She won't like it but it is just life. If someone has an ND they have the obligation to others to determine wether they should handle guns. Trying to defend a ND as something that cannot be avoided and will happen eventually IN MY OPINION is wrong. While there is always a chance the odds can be drastically reduced to about zero by following proper procedure each and everytime. I will never understand making excuses for being negligent....Russ

gym
August 4, 2011, 03:50 PM
Well if he was, then he either forgot, or wasn't.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 5, 2011, 01:55 PM
Nobody knows this individual but yourself. How could we determine wether his mind has gotten to a point where he is forgetfull or negligent about handling firearms? I would leave that decision to his family. My Mother is 80 right now and drives fine. But the time will come when we will need to take the keys from her. She won't like it but it is just life. If someone has an ND they have the obligation to others to determine wether they should handle guns. Trying to defend a ND as something that cannot be avoided and will happen eventually IN MY OPINION is wrong. While there is always a chance the odds can be drastically reduced to about zero by following proper procedure each and everytime. I will never understand making excuses for being negligent....Russ

He certainly isn't getting forgetful I can assure you that. I do agree though that if the gun has a decocker that it should be used but he just drops the hammer. I'm only defending him because you made such a harsh statement that anyone that has a ND is a complete idiot and should never own a gun again in his life. This is the first time hes had one and hes been safe all his life and just because he accidentally reversed the unloading procedure ONCE after near 70 years of being safe, he should just give away all of his guns.

I worked in gun shops for 10 years. You wouldn't believe how many chambered guns I have cleared that customers brought to the counter telling me they were unloaded. If you don't go through the basics everytime you pick up a gun you should not ever be able to handle it. I don't care if the guy that handed it to you checked while you were watching you should go through the process again. Why would anyone ever point a gun at a TV and pull the trigger? Lucky you didn't kill someone. Seems like you understand what you did. Time will tell. Personally I think you should lose your gun privilages. Nobody in my family has ever had a ND...Russ

SSN Vet
August 5, 2011, 03:46 PM
No more storing loaded guns. The only time I will have a loaded gun in my hand is when I am ready to shoot it.

If that's what you need to do... by all means do it.

I would suggest, that all you really need to do is "don't pull the trigger" (unless it's to fire the weapon, to evaluate the function of the gun, or to do serious minded training)

In the first 6 months after getting my pistol permit and carrying frequently, I made a few blunders...

1. Carrying with the safety system locked
2. Thinking a round was chambered when none was
3. putting the pistol "temorarilly" on top of the bookshelf (out of reach of the kiddies) and forgetting about it for several days.
4. leaving the pistol in an unlocked car over night.

I regrouped and went with the a KISS plan.

1. All of my handguns are condition 1, all of the time... period.
2. All of my handguns are either carried on my person, in a good holster, or are readilly available in a GunVault (push button type).

Since making this change, I've never once had to wonder whether one of my handguns is loaded or not.... I know that they are and I handle them accordingly (i.e. I don't play with them and never pull the trigger).

I find this system to be as close to foolproof as I can get.

Before, I was so concerned about having a "loaded gun" that I had a dozen different rules, procedures and policies, and wound up confusing myself.

For me, KISS is the way to go.

Good luck and be safe!

GLOOB
August 5, 2011, 05:05 PM
1. All of my handguns are condition 1, all of the time... period.
2. All of my handguns are either carried on my person, in a good holster, or are readilly available in a GunVault (push button type).

This system is only simple if you have only a few handguns. Or a lot of GunVaults!

Russ Jackson
August 5, 2011, 06:32 PM
He certainly isn't getting forgetful I can assure you that. I do agree though that if the gun has a decocker that it should be used but he just drops the hammer. I'm only defending him because you made such a harsh statement that anyone that has a ND is a complete idiot and should never own a gun again in his life. This is the first time hes had one and hes been safe all his life and just because he accidentally reversed the unloading procedure ONCE after near 70 years of being safe, he should just give away all of his guns.

It appears that he was negligent that time. He fired a loaded gun in the house at his safe. He could have killed or injured someone. Writing it off as an ND and it happens to everyone is nuts in my opinion. When someone after 70 years of handling guns has their first ND it may be a warning sign that it might be time to hang it up. I dont know this mans state of mind. You do. If it were my Father I would discuss it with my brothers. I know little or no facts regarding this ND. I take the handling of guns extremely serious. Sorry if my anal attention to the handling of firearms is excessive. But after listening to all the stories of those who fire unloaded guns it appears my point of view is warranted. Better safe than sorry. I hope you don't post that he had another ND and you did not react in time. This is about you and him not me...Russ

Also I never reffered to anyone as an idiot. Maybe you confused me with some other poster.

SSN Vet
August 5, 2011, 08:42 PM
This system is only simple if you have only a few handguns. Or a lot of GunVaults!

Touche'

I can only hope to have this problem some day.

two GunVaults and and RSC are getting cramped.... but I can always make room for more :)

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 5, 2011, 09:45 PM
He has his safes in the garage and it was a safe direction aswell, no one was in danger. But yes by your post you called anyone that has a ND an idiot considering you said that they should never own a gun and never should touch one again.

Ignition Override
August 5, 2011, 10:17 PM
You should now be one of the safest handgun owners in the country.
Some people who feel that it could not happen to them might be less safe.

This topic reminds me of the truly superb (former WW2 P-51, then post war test pilot) Bob Hoover.
In his book, he had finished a show and was about to leave with two passengers on a night cross-country flight.
The fueler mistakenly put jet fuel (Jet A) in his twin prop plane, which was a reciprocating type using gasoline (Avgas). Some Rockwell twins at that time might have already been converted to turboprops. Such Rockwell Turbo Comander types are powered by small Garrett etc turbines.

During climb-out both engines failed in fairly quick succession.
Bob identified each as it happened, shutoff the correct levers and feathered the correct prop levers to minimize drag (he did this during his famous airshow routines then flew an aileron roll and a loop with both shutdown and landed 'deadstick').
Now he was in a glider and smoothly put the plane on the ground with little damage and no injuries (but unlike airshows, still in the dark).

The FBO's manager heard about it, told Hoover that the fueler would be fired.
Hoover said "No, keep the guy-he will be the safest fueler in the country".

SARDiver
August 6, 2011, 12:24 AM
He has his safes in the garage and it was a safe direction aswell, no one was in danger. But yes by your post you called anyone that has a ND an idiot considering you said that they should never own a gun and never should touch one again.

I've read the tit-for-tat about whether someone should own or use a weapon after an ND, and have conflicted feelings about it myself, actually. I've never had one, but know several who have. These are good shooters, but I can never again say they always obey the safety rules.

I'm a Master Diver and have a rule that I have regrettably had to stand behind a time or two: I won't ever dive with someone who has run out of air. Ever. There is really no excuse for it, and it shows an inattention to detail. When you run your gas tanks dry, you put yourself at risk...but you also put your buddy at risk, since he may count on the air in your tank in an emergency. It also shows you don't pay attention to what you're doing, let alone what your buddy is doing.

I thought of that for the first time tonight, and although I can't really prevent someone who has had an ND from shooting competition, it's tough to get over the thought that they have, for one reason or another, not paid sufficient attention to something that could kill themselves or others.

While the notion that someone with an ND on their record is an "idiot", either stated explicitly or implicitly, is a bit unfair, I don't think it's unfair to cast a very skeptical eye on them from that point forward. I can understand where that viewpoint comes from. Doesn't matter if the ND was caused by age, or if they have operated ND-free for 50 years. Only takes one careless act.

Russ Jackson
August 6, 2011, 04:10 AM
He has his safes in the garage and it was a safe direction aswell, no one was in danger. But yes by your post you called anyone that has a ND an idiot considering you said that they should never own a gun and never should touch one again.

Could you please show me where I called him an idiot?...Russ

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 6, 2011, 08:09 AM
But yes by your post you called anyone that has a ND an idiot considering you said that they should never own a gun and never should touch one again.

What I said, someone that shouldn't own a gun is an idiot in most cases and considering how you said they should give away their guns and never touch one again kinda means something.

kd7nqb
August 6, 2011, 09:52 AM
You manned up and learned dont do it again and your fine. But dropping the mag seems like standard practice when checking a semi-auto but I am sure you know that now.

Loosedhorse
August 6, 2011, 10:04 AM
Could you please show me where I called him an idiot?...Well anyone who had an ND was an idiot--just like I was; whether they still are after the ND is up to them.A former self is a fool, an insufferable ass, but he's still human, you 'd no more turn him out than you'd turn out any kind of cripple, would you?
--Thomas Pynchon

duns
August 8, 2011, 02:37 AM
I would guess less than one percent of the people on this forum have experienced an accidental discharge caused by personal neglect to follow basic safety procedures. There is currently a poll on this at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=607355&highlight=poll. At the moment, 39% admit to having had an ND.

we are not amused
August 8, 2011, 11:59 AM
He has his safes in the garage and it was a safe direction aswell, no one was in danger. But yes by your post you called anyone that has a ND an idiot considering you said that they should never own a gun and never should touch one again.

Don't let Russ get to you, he has the same line on all NDs. I am of the opinion that if someone firmly believes it can't happen to him, then he is not being as safe as he could be. He would even have taken Jeff Coopers guns away from him if he could! Fortunately he can't.

SSN Vet
August 8, 2011, 02:19 PM
I am of the opinion that if someone firmly believes it can't happen to him, then he is not being as safe as he could be.

Saying "it can't happen to me" is, imo, either a statement of ego or ignorance.

Saying "it's not going to happen to me" is an expression of the purpose of ones will.

SARdiver may appreciate/relate to this little expression that we often used back in my sea faring days... "not on my watch!"

Unfortunately, even when the spirit is willing, the body is often weak (forgetful, lazy, etc...)

What to do with a "fallen" brother?

Personally, I've received a lot of grace in my life, and I try to show it to others.

As was often said to people who received grace.... "go and sin (screw up) no more"

Russ Jackson
August 8, 2011, 02:31 PM
Don't let Russ get to you, he has the same line on all NDs. I am of the opinion that if someone firmly believes it can't happen to him, then he is not being as safe as he could be. He would even have taken Jeff Coopers guns away from him if he could! Fortunately he can't.

I would'nt say never as just about anything is possible. But 99% of all the ND's listed could be avoided by following the basics. It also appears that people need a ND to wake up and pay attention. Proper training from a young age is critical. If you have an ND one must look at the way they handle firearms and realize that whatever they are doing isnt working. Get into a gun saftey class. I wouldn't fire a gun without a dry fire snap cap. You could easily buy snap caps for all your guns for the price of the dry wall repairs you all have to do after firing these unloaded firearms. Today people make excuses for there actions. What posesses someone to text while driving, drink and drive, not check a gun before firing, have unprotected sex, etc... Your ND could have KILLED someone. Man up and pay attention and account for your actions. Don't shoot the messenger...Russ

mark1616
August 9, 2011, 05:10 AM
Opinions are like children; everyone thinks theirs are the best. Facts are like other people's children; whether you like them or not does'nt matter, you can't change them.

Face the facts, recognize the opinions, and encourage or admonish without ego.

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