The Judge as hunting back up?


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oldwheelieguy
July 30, 2011, 02:18 AM
No, I am not looking to kill with my 2 " barrel Judge.

It seemed like a good walking defence weapon in the bear,hog, wild cat, etc infested area that I hunt on. On the way to the stand and back to the truck.
So I loaded 2,snake charmer 7 1/2 shot, 2, ooo buck and 1 slug in my 5 shot judge for walking. Not sure why i am even posting this as it makes sence down here in the south where we got all kinds of critters that could pop out in a second and ruin my day. This Judge alowes me a unique combo in a hand carry while walking and I think it is a no brainer. The Judge can cover self defence from home to walking in the woods. I think a great opption weapon for anything. I think a very versital weapon with mixing rounds IMO. Rant over.
Do I dare ask.....what to ya'll think?????

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SPW1
July 30, 2011, 02:40 AM
Myself I find the practice of carrying a mixed loading in one gun to not be particularly helpful. I personally find it is better just to have one load at a time in the gun or else it always seems like the wrong load comes up under the trigger when you actually want to use it. No time to switch from the "snake shot" load when a coyote briefly pops into view etc. Given that I dislike mixing loadings and am not terribly impressed with shotshells from a handgun in general for all but a handful of situations the Judge certainly wouldn't be my choice, but if you like it, then that is what matters. Not likely you are going to be attacked by a bear, hogs, or a "wildcat" anyway.

oldfool
July 30, 2011, 10:43 AM
"good walking defence weapon in the bear,hog, wild cat, etc"


unless Florida rattlers have grown feet, I wouldn't think a "quick draw" would have any value for that, and 410 shotshells are pretty useless against black bear or south Georgia boars, no matter the shot size; best rely on your primary for that, unless it's just a small game gun, but if a backup revolver is carried, carry 45s in all chambers

me, I would just carry a 357 if I bothered carrying a extra gun at all, and wear snake chaps
hawgs and dawgs (of the feral flavor) not uncommon down here
but if carrying a centerfire rifle, you don't need "defense" backup; consider carrying a 22 kit revolver for other small stuff

beeenbag
July 30, 2011, 10:54 AM
I have pondered the idea of a judge for home defense because of its lack of penetration. Yes you read right, chosen for the LACK of penetration. My new home I am moving to shortly has my bedroom on the opposite end of the house as the other (kid's) rooms. I would feel better if I ever had to use a firearm inside that house knowing that it wouldn't bust through 3 walls and still be deadly. Of course my theory is somewhat like yours with the first 4 being some type of buck and the last being a 45 colt just in case.

For woods defense though I wouldn't really worry about over penetration so I would probably be packin my 357 with a shot shell or two in my pocket for the snakes.

bigbcamp
July 30, 2011, 10:56 AM
The Judge would be a deffenent hell ya here in TX. I've been hunting way to many times and spook a lot of different critters on the trails and through the woods. I like the idea of having multiple choices in one configuration. This should be a great thread!

oldfool
July 30, 2011, 11:04 AM
there is no shortage of centerfire "safety" slugs available in centerfire for anyone seriously worried about over penetration, and willing to make that big compromise (none of which has much to do with a woods walking gun anyway)

no gimmick gun required

and a defense gun is not for critters that you spook
it's for critters that spook you

(but if you run into blackie bear in the melon patch, you could maybe shoot a few melons for him, he probably likes melons for lunch better than he likes you anyway)

Sam1911
July 30, 2011, 11:14 AM
Are you thinking of opening up the cylinder and rotating to put the cartridge you want "next up" when trouble comes, or more just emptying the cylinder at whatever it is, assuming you'll eventually put the appropriate payload onto the target of opportunity?

I think, after many years of practicing with handguns, I'd rather have a handgun with me that was powerful enough to do the most critical task required, and that I could shoot accurately at any target I needed to shoot.

My chances of doing any critter in with a firearm -- except for a bird on the wing or a running very small game animal like a rabbit -- are not improved by choosing a shot load, so that wouldn't enter my calculations.

And, usually by the time I'm actually in danger from a venomous snake, shooting is probably not the right choice. They can't outrun me, and generally have no interest in doing so. If I've already stepped on him and/or he's latched onto me ... shooting at him might not produce the most positive result.

oldfool
July 30, 2011, 11:45 AM
well said Sam,

in any defense situation, you best strive to make that 1st shot really, really count
no guarantee you will get two, much less five

Guillermo
July 30, 2011, 02:27 PM
with the horribly anemic shotgun performance from a Judge I would only carry it as a back up if hunting the vicious barn swallow. That is about the only thing that I would trust it to take out.



Hey, don't laugh...a charging barn swallow is a scary sight!!!

Mike1234567
July 30, 2011, 02:34 PM
I'm watching this thread because I recently moved to a small rural place and am looking for a good compromise for carry.

As another posted, I don't feel comfortable carrying a mixed load either. I'd worry about rotating too slowly to the correct type of ammo or just getting it wrong. I also don't want to carry two firearms plus a big stick... but this seems like my best option. I'm thinking 9mm for feral dogs/hogs and a Judge for snakes... and the big stick. There are no bears in my area.

oldfool
July 30, 2011, 02:39 PM
9mm is a fine choice
a garden hoe will do for the snakes; they really don't run all that fast
big stick purely optional, 9mm hits pretty hard all by itself ;)

(and 9mm is pretty deadly on watermelons, too, no kidding)

but hawgs... depends on how big your pig.. a 300-350# wild boar is best avoided, unless you have a 30-30 and a pack of hawg dawgs on your side

Sam1911
July 30, 2011, 02:39 PM
and a Judge for snakes... and the big stick. Why not skip the Judge and count on the big stick to be better at moving, dissuading, or even killing the snakes -- if any actually NEED to be physically "handled."

I still have a difficult time picturing how the scenario unfolds where shooting the snake is really all that helpful a response.

(Aside from walking your own yard specifically looking to eradicate venemous snakes for the safety of your pets and kids. That's a bit different.)

Mike1234567
July 30, 2011, 02:47 PM
a garden hoe will do for the snakes; they really don't run all that fast

Yeah, a garden hoe would work... and it's a heck of a lot cheaper than a Judge. The Judge would be funner though.:evil:

Rexster
July 30, 2011, 02:52 PM
A rifled barrel puts way too much spin in the shot pattern for me to me to want own something like the Judge, as the shot pattern opens too much too soon. A smoothbore revolver would be great, except those are NFA weapons these days.

I grew up in Water Moccasin-infested bayou country, and Copperheads in the yard were not uncommon. I have done volunteer canine SAR work in more recent years, plus plenty of canoe/kayak outings. Guys, I am respectful and mindful of snakes, but not afraid of them to the extent that I base any firearm or ammo decisions on the snake factor. I will
use a "snake stick" some of the time, and no, it is NOT for whacking snakes.

I have used CCI shot loads for assassinating rodents at short range, in some conditions.

oldfool
July 30, 2011, 03:00 PM
don't be laughing at G too hard now
I never took on a bunch of zombie barn swallows myself, but if you have never thrown leftover shrimp bait to seagulls on a Florida beach, don't forget your shooting glasses

because no shotgun, long or short, holds enough rounds to defend against that !

Sam1911
July 30, 2011, 03:04 PM
...except those are NFA weapons these days.
These days? How the heck old are you? :) 1934 seems like yesterday?

Guillermo
July 30, 2011, 03:10 PM
thrown leftover shrimp bait to seagulls on a Florida beach

that is suicidal!!!

how ever did you escape?

And don't tell me Taurus Judge...because I don't think a 410 out of a short rifled barrel would take out a crazed seagull.

(the pattern disperses worse than a blunderbuss)

oldfool
July 30, 2011, 03:12 PM
spent too many years in Texas and south Georgia to ignore dangerous snakes
(mostly dangerous to the family pets and real little people that make our lives so worth living)
and being in-city, I am obliged to rely on the hoe and riding mower
but if I lived more rural, I would keep a legally short 410 single shot in a boot on the riding mower, loaded w/ #8s (not a Judge)

snakes do have their place, and I don't go looking for that place on purpose
(have respectfully walked AROUND more than one rattler when out and about, away from home, felt no need to use the gun)
but their place ain't in my space, how it is
they apparently have an extraordinary fondness for the watermelon patch, though.. good thing we don't have a watermelon patch, I guess

PS
narrowly escaped those gulls due to the clever tactic of running out of shrimp, they lose interest quick
fun, though, but not as much fun as hand feeding dolphins in St Andrews Bay, and the dolphins always smile and say thank you so much before they leave, when you run out of mackerel

Dnaltrop
July 30, 2011, 03:12 PM
I considered a Judge for a while when I was looking at buying my first defensive handgun, with the thought at the back of my head that I could pop Clays with it for fun. Besides, if you're considered skilled for shooting skeet with .410, Handgun .410 would be an even greater proof of skill.

The choke does not hold the shot pattern in a tight group, and the weapon itself exhibits poor penetration on cardboard at a few paces. The wider spread of shot opens you to liability when you spray the attacker, and anyone behind him with pellets.

My choice for a field/snake gun for my Brother in law's upcoming hog hunt is a Super Blackhawk, (or indeed any high durability revolver) and hand loading buck 'n ball.

I can't take credit for this method...Take a single empty cartridge, sharpen the edge and set it in the chuck of a drill, use the shell to cut cardstock. Place the circles of cardstock over your powder charge, top with birdshot and seal with a lead ball. Yes you will get some fouling, but this isn't supposed to be a load you put downrange all day long.

You'll have a single, heavy hitting projectile and a spray of shot adequate for unavoidable snakes and other mild threats.

oldfool
July 30, 2011, 03:34 PM
I do admire folks who enjoy shooting clays with 410s, Dnaltrop
been too long since I did some of that myself, own a nice pump and an O/U in 410

SBH, fine choice for for mr piggie

Rexster
July 30, 2011, 03:51 PM
These days? How the heck old are you? :) 1934 seems like yesterday?
Hmm, well, I guess that did make me "sound" old. :) ;) :eek:

Well, my Dad was born in 1933. My father-in-law, who lives with us, was born in 1919. I reckon I just feel old.

Guillermo
July 30, 2011, 08:31 PM
These days? How the heck old are you? 1934 seems like yesterday?

u have to understand...Sam is a 1911 expert because he used to hang out w John Moses and throw washers while drinking lemonade spiked with gin. John Moses called Sam "that weird old man"

:neener:

Sam1911
July 30, 2011, 09:46 PM
Now that's funny! Sometimes I sure with that were true. :)

bigbcamp
July 31, 2011, 02:42 AM
Im sorry but even the 410 slugs in it would be enough to do any damage to any spooks that may spook me or that i spook.

Guillermo
July 31, 2011, 12:35 PM
Now that's funny!

Sometimes I am successful...though often not.

:D

bassdogs
July 31, 2011, 10:08 PM
My Judge Public defender is loaded with 2 winchester PD 410 rounds, 1 45 LCHP. and then 1 more each of the PD 410 and 45 LC for self defense. Taking it to Alaska as a back up but it will be loaded with 225 hardcast wad cutters from Buffalo Bore.

PS forget the 410 slug, a 45 LC has more lead and more power.

And for those who want to bad mouth the 410 round from a Judge, I suggest you don't get in front of mine. As a point and shoot against a bad guy coming out of the dark, the winchester PD rounds have 3 38cal disks and 10 or 12 #4's with a spread about the size of a basket ball at 10 to 15 feet. It may not kill the bad guy, but he will instantly grasp that coming at you was a really bad idea. The 45HP in the 3d chamber will finish the deal if necessary.

.45FMJoe
July 31, 2011, 10:15 PM
Protection against what? A wild flock of rabid Dove? It probably wouldn't even do much good against that.

.45FMJoe
July 31, 2011, 10:18 PM
My Judge Public defender is loaded with 2 winchester PD 410 rounds, 1 45 LCHP. and then 1 more each of the PD 410 and 45 LC for self defense. Taking it to Alaska as a back up but it will be loaded with 225 hardcast wad cutters from Buffalo Bore.

PS forget the 410 slug, a 45 LC has more lead and more power.

And for those who want to bad mouth the 410 round from a Judge, I suggest you don't get in front of mine. As a point and shoot against a bad guy coming out of the dark, the winchester PD rounds have 3 38cal disks and 10 or 12 #4's with a spread about the size of a basket ball at 10 to 15 feet. It may not kill the bad guy, but he will instantly grasp that coming at you was a really bad idea. The 45HP in the 3d chamber will finish the deal if necessary.
And?

If you don't incapacitate the attacker what's to stop him from killing you? What if he is armed with a firearm that's actually useful for defensive purposes and shoots you with a round that actually performs well? What if he has a knife and cuts you open from head to toe? Or what if he even has a pointed stick? Yeah, when you show him you're serious that will surely stop him.

Sam1911
July 31, 2011, 10:29 PM
Gerring pretty far from the original quesiton about a "walking defence weapon in the bear,hog, wild cat, etc infested area that I hunt on."

And we really don't need to chase the Judge/.410 "defense" gun argument down the rabbit hole one more time, do we?

Mike1234567
July 31, 2011, 10:33 PM
oldwheelieguy... are there really bears in the Pensacola area?

ETA #1: Disregard... looked it up and, sure enough, there are. I woodnathunkit.

ETA #2: Personally, I don't see why a Judge wouldn't be a viable solution.

goon
July 31, 2011, 10:37 PM
I still have a difficult time picturing how the scenario unfolds where shooting the snake is really all that helpful a response.



I agree, but we don't really have many aggressive poisonous snakes in PA other than the occasional copperhead. Not sure what southerners might have to deal with.
I do carry a gun while hiking but I don't think the Judge is any better than any other centerfire handgun that's "big enough". Truth is that I'd prefer my .357 to a .410 shotshell from a handgun in almost every single application. If I'm close enough that a snake is really a threat, I'm within handgun shotshell range - so I don't need a load of .410 birdshot. I'd trust a well placed round of .357 over a .410 slug or a load of .410 000 buck. I'd say if you're serious about carrying he Judge for real back up type use, at least load four of the five chambers with .45 Colt ammo - even lighter .45 loadings are packing more wallop than a .410 slug.

.45FMJoe
July 31, 2011, 11:20 PM
OK, well ... since .410 isn't even that great for birds what makes it a viable solution to larger, more complex and dangerous animals with thicker hides and solid bones?

.45FMJoe
July 31, 2011, 11:26 PM
Gerring pretty far from the original quesiton about a "walking defence weapon in the bear,hog, wild cat, etc infested area that I hunt on."

And we really don't need to chase the Judge/.410 "defense" gun argument down the rabbit hole one more time, do we?
I forgot to add, it astonishes me people who carry a firearm for any kind of defense would not take the time to educate themselves about the implications of carrying that firearm and how to properly use, and make the best use of it. Clearly anyone who believes shotshell that won't come close to adequately reaching the FBI minimum standards of penetration is a good choice for anything except soda cans has taken leave of their senses.

I cannot believe people would consciously make such poor choices. Then again, given my chosen profession, I should easily believe it. The FBI study on handgun ballistic effectiveness is available on the internet and it would behoove some individuals to read it.

Mike1234567
July 31, 2011, 11:27 PM
.45FMJoe... you apparently misread the OP. He's using a mix of ammunition.

THplanes
August 1, 2011, 02:33 AM
I forgot to add, it astonishes me people who carry a firearm for any kind of defense would not take the time to educate themselves about the implications of carrying that firearm and how to properly use, and make the best use of it. Clearly anyone who believes shotshell that won't come close to adequately reaching the FBI minimum standards of penetration is a good choice for anything except soda cans has taken leave of their senses.

I cannot believe people would consciously make such poor choices. Then again, given my chosen profession, I should easily believe it. The FBI study on handgun ballistic effectiveness is available on the internet and it would behoove some individuals to read it.

Just for you Joe.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4550011&postcount=37

bassdogs

My Judge Public defender is loaded with 2 winchester PD 410 rounds, 1 45 LCHP. and then 1 more each of the PD 410 and 45 LC for self defense. Taking it to Alaska as a back up but it will be loaded with 225 hardcast wad cutters from Buffalo Bore.



The PDX .410 round is a gimmick and will not get more than 9-9.5" of penetration. The Fed 000 buck .410 is the only suitable self defense round out there and it's still limited to 10 maybe 12 yards. When you get farther out than that the pellets no longer work together. After that you need a .45 colt. But even most of them don't do well because of the short barrel and large effective free-bore. They don't get enough velocity to expand reliably. PDX1 .45 colt load is designed for it and appears to expand, at least from wet pack test I've seen. I would think critical defense would work, but I've not seen any tests.

GoodKat
August 1, 2011, 10:52 AM
The judge won't help against anything big enough to pose an actual threat (save for venomous snakes).

I recommend a .357, you can always just carry a few rounds of snake shot in your pocket.

Mike1234567
August 1, 2011, 11:33 AM
So neither .45LC nor .410 #00 buckshot are potent enough?:eek:

Guillermo
August 1, 2011, 11:53 AM
I recommend a .357, you can always just carry a few rounds of snake shot in your pocket.

or aim low w your regular carry ammo

David E
August 1, 2011, 02:39 PM
The "tester" with the jello didn't say how far away he was when he shot it. Judging (dang, I'm "punny!") by the temporary wound channel being so concentrated, he was very, very close. Take the shot from 10-20 feet, I'd bet the outcome would significantly change for the worse.

For longer shots, I'd definitely load it with .45 Colt.

Mike1234567
August 1, 2011, 02:52 PM
^^^ According to "most" of what I've read 10-15 feet is about the max distance for effectiveness of bird shot (from a Judge) on little critters like snakes and rats and less than 10 feet is better. This is due to the short rifled barrel. Of course, #00 buck and .45LC change the effective range and critter size significantly.;)

CMC
August 1, 2011, 03:10 PM
I use 410 #4 shells for snakes in my Judge.
Saturday I got a call from a guy in our lease and he ran across 11 mocassins in one day and one of them was chasing his 4 wheeler as he was backing away from it.
He said his 45 ACP snakeshots were not cycling on hir 45 pistol so he was inquiring abot my Judge.
And yes we got Bears in North Florida lots of them, I was on a Hunting lease a couple years ago next to a creek called Bear creek go figure.

Mike1234567
August 1, 2011, 03:16 PM
...ran across 11 mocassins in one day and one of them was chasing his 4 wheeler as he was backing away from it.

There's something different about some species like Water Mocassins. Those are often very territorial, bold, and aggressive... both on land and in the water.

bassdogs
August 1, 2011, 03:28 PM
Mr 45 - Clearly you don't like the Judge, so there is very little chance you will ever be on the "sending" end of one. Again I suggest that you really don't want to be on the receiving end of either the PDX round or the 45 HP. Complaining about shots beyond 10 yards as being not effective, its clear that the Judge is not designed for anything other than close in self defense. Almost all self defense situations place the BG in side of 10 feet and a large majority are less than 5 feet.

Trust me the BG won't be taking aim after you hit him with 2 PDX rounds [its pretty hard to miss at that range]. What to do if they don't kill him???? That's why #3 is a 45LChp.

The Judge is not what you want to take to a gunfight. It is however very effective for what it is designed for. It is particularly effective for the infrequent shooter who wants a lethal SD weapon for the car or purse.

All this talk about shooting doves, barn swallows, and sea gulls is pretty funny. I bet your hit rate with a flushing dove wouldn't make many record books with your 1911 either.

daorhgih
August 1, 2011, 05:54 PM
How effective would a .410 choke system be for the various barrel-lengths of the Judge? DAO

THplanes
August 1, 2011, 11:17 PM
How effective would a .410 choke system be for the various barrel-lengths of the Judge? DAO

There's a guy on thefiringline that did this. He's an Alaskan gunsmith and did it for the heck of it. Said it worked well. If I can find it I'll post a link. Guys name is WildAlaska, not sure if that's the right spelling or not.

Edit

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=371463&highlight=judge+410+choke

THplanes
August 1, 2011, 11:25 PM
The "tester" with the jello didn't say how far away he was when he shot it. Judging (dang, I'm "punny!") by the temporary wound channel being so concentrated, he was very, very close. Take the shot from 10-20 feet, I'd bet the outcome would significantly change for the worse.

For longer shots, I'd definitely load it with .45 Colt.

At 7 yard I get about 2-2.5 inch groups with the Fed load. The only thing I've shot with it is a rabbit. The shot was about 7 yard. All pellets penetrated stem to stern and exited. When I need to get rid of a rabbit that thinks my garden is theirs I test a different round each time. So far the total is only 4 rabbits. The Fed .410 round did considerably more damage than a 9mm, .40 S&W, or a .45 acp.

Mike1234567
August 1, 2011, 11:30 PM
At 7 yard I get about 2-2.5 inch groups with the Fed load. The only thing I've shoot with it is a rabbit. The shot was about 7 yard. All pellets penetrated stem to stern and exited. When I need to get rid of a rabbit that thinks my garden is theirs I test a different round each time. So far the total is only 4 rabbits. The Fed .410 round did considerably more damage than a 9mm, .40 S&W, or a .45 acp.

You get 2.5" groups at 7 yards shooting birdshot with a Judge?:confused:?

THplanes
August 1, 2011, 11:40 PM
You get 2.5" groups at 7 yards shooting birdshot with a Judge?:confused:?

Of course not. The load I'm discussing is the Fed .410 000 buck load.

oldwheelieguy
August 2, 2011, 12:06 AM
wow, what bunch of ideas. I am not hunting with it. I am walking with it. 1st 2 are 7 1/2 hp, 2nd 2 are OOO buck, last 1 slug. no, I am not going to roll it to what I think is the best round, 7 1/2 is first. I don't care how big and bad the snake or bear is ,I will blinded the hell out of it on the 1st shot and keep squeezing till it is empty and a .410 has way more close range punch than some seem to think. No, it is not a 357. I want pattern 1st more than punch in an instant. If I have time the 30.06 will be drawn and game over. I just have to walk alot in heavy brush and rifles are best slug ,not pointed. Thanks for all the thoughts and ideas. The Judge is the only revolver that lets you mix up so many differant rounds in one hand gun. I like that.:)

bassdogs
August 2, 2011, 12:45 AM
Go for it Olwheelieguy - Not sure how much of a threat there is where you are from snakes, so I would suggest you forget the 7's and move up to at least 4's. For real varmits I'd go with the buck shot and then forget the slugs and load with 45 LC or LCHP. Want a real heavy punch consider a 225 grain hardcast flat head wad cutter from Buffalo Bore.

Oh and if we come across any doves, we can call the 45 guy to come and save us.

daorhgih
August 3, 2011, 12:23 AM
I could've said "pimping" but it's not a whore, although I have had intentions of treating it as one. First I wanted to use steel hulls for my reloads, and that is still possible. I thought about the "disk-n-buck loads", the All ииии loads, 300gr bullet in .45C, and many lighter loadings, checking for precision and patterning. And then I found this company: Paraklese Technologies. Whooo-Hooo! Any sort of load one could want or dream of, and they're still testing for more. I'll buy their technology and use and enjoy it, but I'm still partial to the steel hulls. I'll get back to ya' on that. DAO

THplanes
August 3, 2011, 01:05 AM
I could've said "pimping" but it's not a whore, although I have had intentions of treating it as one. First I wanted to use steel hulls for my reloads, and that is still possible. I thought about the "disk-n-buck loads", the All ииии loads, 300gr bullet in .45C, and many lighter loadings, checking for precision and patterning. And then I found this company: Paraklese Technologies. Whooo-Hooo! Any sort of load one could want or dream of, and they're still testing for more. I'll buy their technology and use and enjoy it, but I'm still partial to the steel hulls. I'll get back to ya' on that. DAO

You might want to get some and test it before buying a lot their stuff. I have not bought anything from them because of a reputation for poor quality control. Maybe they have fixed the problems, let us know how it goes.

David E
August 3, 2011, 01:23 AM
The Judge is the only revolver that lets you mix up so many differant rounds in one hand gun. I like that.:)

The S&W Governor is more versatile than the Judge and has an extra shot.

But more importantly, it's better to use a .45 Colt load with a 250 grain bullet instead of the .410 slug that only weighs 96 grains.

oldfool
August 3, 2011, 09:08 AM
"better to use a .45 Colt load with a 250 grain bullet instead of the .410 slug that only weighs 96 grains."

indeed, good advice, always match your load to intended purpose

versatile gun, though, da Judge
good for whatever ails you, I reckon

da Judge vs da Great Pumpkin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HyUIw5onBk&NR=1
(don't forget to carry a 10/22 for backup)

da Judge vs da abominable snowman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3XpgrZE2_0
(ol' Frosty be tougher than your average bear, I reckon)

but, all time best 'magnum' load for watermelons ??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyonS7HdGWM&feature=related
(no boutique ammo required)

:p:neener::D

daorhgih
August 3, 2011, 03:55 PM
I certainly will post all of my successes and faiiures here for all to kibbitz, &/or learn. DAO.

oldwheelieguy
August 10, 2011, 12:03 AM
May have to switch to that .45 on the last shot. all ggod thoughts out there!

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