[Busyhands94]

i realize that ammunition and such is getting expensive nowadays. however, i know i could shoot my muzzleloader for incredibly cheap. owning a flintlock .50 caliber i feel that i can hunt almost anything i want to aside from water foul. i can shoot rabbits with 10 grains, or go with a full load and shoot big game. I'm sure with proper shot placement and a 360 grain Minnie ball i could knock down a moose or Griz.

I can scrounge up materials to fire my gun. sulfur i can get cheap from a garden store. saltpeter i can get from a pharmacy. charcoal, well i can just make a fire and put some wood in a pot and seal it until i have good charcoal and then grind it up and use in my powder, and stale urine to mix it with, well that's easy.

flint... i live near a creek that was cut really deep from erosion. i always find artifacts such as arrowheads left from the Native Americans that once roamed the forests. there is a deposit of good flint and other sparking rocks down there. that is where i get my flints! i just find a decent chunk and chip it into pieces of suitable size, then sharpen them. and as a bonus i get to go run around the woods to get my shooting supplies! how fun is that! if i spend a half an hour i can usually find a good amount, usually a few big chunks. so my flints are free.

for bullets and balls i have two Lee molds. one cast a single 360 grain improved Minnie ball, and another casts two round balls. lead is easy to find. old fishing sinkers, used lead bullets, and stuff like that is where i get my lead and it seems to work quite well. i am sure that i could ask one car mechanic friends and get a huge amount of lead from them, maybe trade something for it. also i know several plumbers, i could probably get some babbits from them to melt down into lead bullets. that should work nicely. lead pipes are common, i can use them as well!

for patches, i did a little experiment yesterday. i was making some bullet lube out of beeswax and Crisco. while it was a liquid i had a mighty fine idea! i got some cotton fabric from my mom's scrap bin, cut a couple circles of cotton fabric, stuck them in a bag, and poured a bit of my liquid lube in there. then, i "massaged" the bag to get the patches well lubed. it seemed to work well! i also greased up some Minnie balls as well. it'll probably make them even easier to load in a fouled barrel and will lubricate and protect my bore.

well that's about it! i am thinking about making my own "tap-o-cap" with a lathe and using that to make percussion caps. i can use toy caps as the priming stuff. i am thinking about how i can make a mold for my NAA blackpowder revolvers. i have experience in making bullet molds before, i have made a .17 caliber one for my Remington Rider derringer. it's mighty fine and does it's job well. so for my NAA pistols i will try and make a boring bit that will cut a semi wadcutter cavity so i can shoot semi wadcutters with the companions. i might make it two cavity though, i could maybe cast both a round nosed bullet mold and a semi wadcutter.

anyway, i hope you all enjoyed reading this. what are YOUR techniques to save money or be self reliant?

Sincerely, Levi Hawken Dabney

[barneyrw]

I'm not sure how self relient that is. You need a garden store and a pharmacy to get the ingredients for black powder. Why not just go to a gun shop and buy black powder?

[JustKen]

Mr Dabney,
I had that notion myself too a few years back. But when you add in all the costs and time involved in being "self-reliant" it ends up being like barneyrw says; more trouble than it's worth. Unless you really love to doing it. Bottom line: Follow your bliss because life is short.

[Busyhands94]

i do it because i am under 18. i can't just walk into the gun shop and buy a pound of black powder and a couple hundred Minnie balls. i can however go to a pharmacy and buy saltpeter, i gotta tell em' it's for making slat pork though. otherwise they wouldn't sell it to me if they knew i was making my own powder even though it's legal to do so. besides, it's hard to find real black powder in California. and making my own stuff is worth it to me, i like the feeling of self reliance i get from doing so. forgot to mention i have tons of sulfur at my house, out in the garden shed. with as much as i have i recon i should be set for life.

Sincerely, Levi

[44-henry]

I prefer to keep my limbs intact. It is a heck of a lot safer to buy the stuff than it is to make it.

[Mike1234567]

Some good points are raised here but I see his point in being "self-reliant". In fact, that's my goal for the next year or two. I'm stockpiling ammo for use in modern firearms rather than shooting black powder but I'm doing everything else to divorce my need for outside things. Again, I can see why he likes the self-reliance of DIY.

[ofitg]

Nothing wrong with learning some modern-day "survival skills". Even if you can buy black powder, some people like to learn how to make it themselves.

Saltpeter used to be on the shelf in every drugstore, but not so anymore..... but it's possible to make your own saltpeter too, you just need potassium chloride (water softener salt) and ammonium nitrate (available just about everywhere in those "instant cold packs"). It takes some time and it's probably not cost-competitive with over-the-counter saltpeter, but it's nice just knowing how to do it.

[44-henry]

A lot of folks think that something so old as black powder is really all that dangerous, but there have been a lot of people seriously injured and even killed attempting to make it at home. Like anything if you do it right the risks are probably minimal, but they are always present. If I was going to do it I would stick to making very small quantities at a time. Nothing wrong with self reliance, but sometimes it is enough to know that you can do something if needed, but not make a habit of doing it unless it becomes necessity.

[Mike1234567]

A lot of folks think that something so old as black powder is really all that dangerous, but there have been a lot of people seriously injured and even killed attempting to make it at home. Like anything if you do it right the risks are probably minimal, but they are always present. If I was going to do it I would stick to making very small quantities at a time. Nothing wrong with self reliance, but sometimes it is enough to know that you can do something if needed, but not make a habit of doing it unless it becomes necessity.
Best advice I've read so far.

[Busyhands94]

i appreciate everyone's concern for safety, however i do keep safety as my top priority.

i always mix my blackpowder wet and then force it through a screen and then dry it out and store it. i always make small batches too. never anything bigger than a couple ounces. i also spray my container with some anti-static spray before i put the powder in. it seems to be safe enough. and of course, i always mix it in a non sparking glass container.

~Levi

[ofitg]

i appreciate everyone's concern for safety, however i do keep safety as my top priority.

i always mix my blackpowder wet and then force it through a screen and then dry it out and store it. i always make small batches too. never anything bigger than a couple ounces. i also spray my container with some anti-static spray before i put the powder in. it seems to be safe enough. and of course, i always mix it in a non sparking glass container

You're mixing it wet, and you work with small quanities, one or two ounces max. Sounds perfectly sane to me.

There will always be warnings from Nervous Nellies who never tried it themselves. Might as well get used to it.

[Busyhands94]

it's actually fine by me if people are showing their concern for my fingers. i have been making pyrotechnics since i was ten and i still have all my fingers. that is because i am one of those "Nervous Nellies" myself. i am very, very careful by nature because i know the properties of different pyrotechnic chemicals.

[44-henry]

Levi, I sounds as though you are approaching it with caution. Ofitg, I guess I am what you would call a "Nervous Nellie" but I am still alive. I have made BP in the past and could do so again if needed. Sometimes a bit of fear is a healthy thing and I am not afraid to admit it, nor do I feel any shame in warning someone about the potential dangers in a process.

[Busyhands94]

the way i see it is that God gave us fear to help keep us alive. if we had no fear we could end up like those "no fear" skateboarders with broken limbs and such. and when someone warns you about something, it's just them helping you out. making sure, that you are safe. it's good when someone warns you, it shows people are looking out for eachother. and the world need that these days.

i found that when you are making black powder, you should mix some stale urine and a little alcohol in with it. the urine actually helps the powder burn better. and the alcohol helps remove moisture and dry your powder. it may sound weird, but powder with that little "secret ingredient" compared with powder that was not enriched with that ingredient is WAY BETTER. the difference between properly mixed powder with that unmentionable ingredient and dry mixed powder is like night and day.

anyway, just wanted to put that out there for anybody who is interested in making their own blackpowder.

Sincerely, Levi

[Diggers]

I think its cool your learning how to make things you use yourself Levi. Not many bother to learn how.

A question though....lead pipes are common where you live?:uhoh: Really?

I would start drinking bottled water my friend. :)

[Busyhands94]

i meant at junkyards and such. i think they changed the pipes to be lead-free.

[Mike1234567]

OT: What's in stale urine that promotes better powder combustion? Ammonia? If so then why not just add a tiny bit of ammonia?

[Busyhands94]

not sure but I'm thinking phosphorous. all i know is they used it in the olden days, and it works. i will look into that further to see what is in it that makes it work so well.

[Pete D.]

I can scrounge up materials to fire my gun. sulfur i can get cheap from a garden store. saltpeter i can get from a pharmacy. charcoal, well i can just make a fire and put some wood in a pot and seal it until i have good charcoal and then grind it up and use in my powder, and stale urine to mix it with, well that's easy.


Yeah, what you describe is easy. But the product - I guess that it works for you or you wouldn't do it - the product isn't "black powder"; the simple mixture of the the three ingredients is called "green" powder or polverone.
Do you really think that Swiss or Goex just mixes up sulfur, saltpeter, and charcoal and wets it in a bowl and then forces it through a large screen?

Black powder - the ingredients must be incorporated and it is virtually impossible to do that without a ball mill. It is the milling process, which takes hours, that is done by remote control and is most dangerous.

A question though....lead pipes are common where you live? Really?

I would start drinking bottled water my friend.
Lead pipes are still common in older areas in older cities. I have a home in Brooklyn, NY in an area where the homes date from the middle 1800s. I keep an eye out for renovations where the buliding plumbing is being replaced.
Also water passing through lead pipes builds a mineral coating over the lead in pretty short order. In any case, lead isn't very water soluble.
Pete

[mykeal]

What is WAY BETTER in terms of feet per second, or foot pounds, or pounds per square inch?

[Busyhands94]

not quite sure, however if you burn a little, it is noticeably faster than if you were to just mix the ingredients. try it, you'll see what I'm talking about! it's fun to experiment with fire!

[Busyhands94]

i believe there are two ways to make blackpowder, one not involving a ball mill. you can dissolve the KNO3 in water, and then use the water as a carrier to get the saltpeter into the pores in the charcoal.

[Mike1234567]

This is OT but I just wanted to say that the OP worded this thread title very appropriately. I don't know about others here but it frustrates me to see titles so incorrectly or vaguely written that I have no idea what the thread is about until I open the page. I only mention this because youths should to be told when they do something well.

[ofitg]

Levi, I sounds as though you are approaching it with caution. Ofitg, I guess I am what you would call a "Nervous Nellie" but I am still alive. I have made BP in the past and could do so again if needed. Sometimes a bit of fear is a healthy thing and I am not afraid to admit it, nor do I feel any shame in warning someone about the potential dangers in a process.

44-henry, I'm glad to hear that you've actually tried it, and I trust that your limbs are still intact.....

I remember years back, a guy who had previously put on municipal fireworks shows flatly stated that the stuff was too dangerous to work with.... he told me how he got injured grinding potassium perchlorate, sulfur and aluminum powder together with a mortar & pestle. Well, DUH......

Instead of hearing warnings to stay away from such activities, I much prefer to hear advice on how to succeed and do it safely. In Levi's case, I haven't heard anything about his method that sounds dangerous.

[Busyhands94]

as a general rule of thumb i try and stay away from anything that can spark, any sources of static, anything that can get hot, anything stone, and any metal powders. and away from where i keep my powder. i mix my powder wet with urine, or water, or sometimes slightly diluted alcohol. diluted enough that it wouldn't catch fire if you put a match to it. i also use a small amount of each ingredient so i have a small amount of powder. and i generally stay away from anything electric for grinding anything but the charcoal. that's basically how i stay safe.

[jimrbto]

Busyhands ! ! Continue to march.
I made my first batch of BP when I was 14, under the watchful eye of an old "hillbilly", and at 75 I still make it today. Don't make as much cause I don't shoot or hunt as much as I used to- - cant see very well and legs tend to want to take it easy.
This old gent taught me to make LARGE batches of the three ingredients separately and store them separately in airtight jars. I now use vacuum sealed jars. I have two ball mills, one for rough work i.e. grinding everything fine and another with a pumpkin shaped bowl that sits at an incline and is OPEN top for making the BP. My batches are usually only 100-200grams. With pre-ground components the finished product takes very little time to finish. Steel balls in the roughing mill and large lead balls in the BP mill. I grind the BP with a little alcohol mixed with water, seems to carry the salt peter into the charcoal better. I screen my finished product the same as you.
The BP mill is in a sandbagged little area away from the house on a long cord with a switch at this end, being open topped should it decide to go WHOOSH that is all it is going to do because it is not confined. Has never happened yet, and I never heard of anyone else having a problem with BP going BOOM when it was not supposed to.
My powder is not as dense as Swiss but it is just as hot, I check each batch for weight and measure by loads accordingly. (pretty much always the same)
Best charcoal to use is made from Alder or Willow, I prefer Alder.
Urine contains potassium nitrate and a long time ago there was a "Fox Fire" book on making BP that had a lot to say about how to make your own from soil from cattle stalls etc.

Take care
Jim

[Cosmoline]

Muzzleloaders tend to be more self-reliant folks in general I find. Not sure what it is, but there seems to be a link. OP--you should check out "Backwoodsman" magazine.

There will always be warnings from Nervous Nellies who never tried it themselves.

Everyone should be a little nervous about making powder.

[kBob]

I think you should plan to carry that flintlock while checking the traps and trot lines that have some hope of actually feeding you in a situation requiring you to live off the land.

Shouldn't need a whole lot of powder for that.

Rather than learning how to make BP put the effort into learning how to trap and fish.

For Firearms and self reliance look up "Survival Guns" by Mel Tappan and read his section on BP guns.....it is very short, that section.

BP guns ARE fun and beat no guns for most folks and that seems to be your situation as far as guns go, but do look into other options.

Did you know that a six gallon seal able bucket with three two liter bottles full of your choice of beans, a bottle of your favorite multivitamins and the rest filled up with rice can feed you for about 21 days? Nine such buckets can get you to six months. Don't have to fire a shot or even check traps or lines for that mater.

Might give you time to start a garden and I have yet to have to shoot a turnip, squash, nor 'tater, though some cabbages once gave me a hard time, but I beheaded them with an old Bowie I use for yard work sometime without wasting powder nor ball.

Just a thought.

You might want to check out the Church Of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints, the Mormons, in your area as one of their tenents is preparedness and they are encouraged to do food storage and gardening and such. You might fit in better than you think.

-kBob

[Busyhands94]

funny you should mention that, i actually fish and own a garden! i haven't tried trapping yet but i do know how to set snares, traps, and different things like that. I'm not saying i learned how to do that from watching survival TV shows, i actually have gone out and practiced that so that i can get good at it! i figure knowing how to make my own powder and shot will not only save me money if i don't wanna drop cash on the stuff, but if i ever need to i know how to. and knowing how to do it right is better than wasting time and effort not knowing how to do it and having to pull a ball from your rifle. i figure, it gives me practice so when i go to collage (i am 17, and i plan on going) i can still shoot, hunt, and not have to worry about spending money on that, if i wanna shoot bad enough (and i know i will, I'm hooked) then i feel a bit reassured that i can make my own powder, bullets, balls, patches, lube, and flints. as an avid BP nut i feel like i have a backup!

man, i didn't know about that bucket trick. i will have to remember that! i like that it's one convenient package, i could just stick a couple of those in a safe place and be set!

Sincerely, Levi

[4v50 Gary]

BTW, for anyone serious about primitive living, check out The Book of Buckskinning. There's several volumes but they're all excellent. So are the Foxfire series. I'm going to try some of it when I get out of California. Beaver's gonna shine a'gin!

Concerning of manufacture of blackpowder, that used to be a cottage industry which arose at the outbreak of the Revolution. Newpapers printed instructions and people gathered salt-peter from their necessaries. The quality of the home made powder varied from batch to batch. Our powder supply was improved when the French sent powder. But until they did, colonists made it.

[Pete D.]

Jimrbto: That ball mill set up that you describe is very similar to what i have used when I have made BP.
Pete

Busyhands - like I said, if it didn't work for you, you'd not be doing it. There are two ways (at least) to make BP - one is the ball mill method and the other - the precipitation or CIA method, which involves alcohol and goes beyond simple mixing.
Consider this about methods - companies like Swiss and Goex are making BP commercially. They want a profit. If there was an easier, cheaper way to make high quality BP, they would use it. They don't. They mix and mill - all by remote control on a large scale.
I will try your method.....just to see. The stale urine business - what is "stale" urine and how much is used for - let's say - four ounces.
Pete

[Busyhands94]

i usually use just enough to wet it, it's kinda nasty but it seems to work for me. for mine i use:
100 parts KNO3
20 parts charcoal
13 parts sulfur

i make my charcoal out of softwood, i just stick it in an old pot and put it on the BBQ and cook it until the smoke doesn't come out. then, i use an old electric coffee grinder to mill it to smaller size, and then finally a rock tumbler with some lead in it to powder the charcoal finely. remember, you might need to experiment with what works best for you with your given ingredients. after i mill the ingredients together i like to add the stale urine, so that it is kinda like dough. then, i push it through a mesh screen to make it into the proper sized particles. then what i like to do is lay it on a large piece of cardboard box in the sun to let it dry. then, just use the flexibility of the cardboard to your advantage, you can bend it to collect your powder in a container.

be safe!
~Levi

[crazyjennyblack]

@ 4v50Gary - You wouldn't happen to have any references to those Revolution-era instructions, would you? I'd like to see some sort of image or copy of that - sounds like a cool piece of history!

[Busyhands94]

that would be really interesting, i have always wondered how they did it in the olden days!

[Pete D.]

. after i mill the ingredients together i like to add the stale urine, so that it is kinda like dough. then, i push it through a mesh screen to make it into

After you mill the ingredients together? I was under the impression that you simply mixed them and did not use a mill. That rock tumbler is a mill. Do you mix the ingredients in that?
If so, then we are talking about the same thing.
Pete

[Busyhands94]

yes i use the rock tumbler to mill my powder. i love the fact that i can get one at a garage sale for ridiculously cheap, usually only a couple bucks!

[ofitg]

yes i use the rock tumbler to mill my powder. i love the fact that i can get one at a garage sale for ridiculously cheap, usually only a couple bucks!

If you are milling the potassium nitrate together with the charcoal & sulfur, that does sound a little risky. I hope your tumbler/ball mill is outdoors, connected to a long extension cord.

As long as you are mixing wet anyway, there may not be any reason to mill the potassium nitrate at all. Very hot water (close to boiling) will dissolve twice its weight of potassium nitrate. You could mix this solution with the sulfur/charcoal dust - as the water cools the potassium nitrate will precipitate onto the sulfur/charcoal dust, incorporating it more thoroughly than mechanical milling would.

[Mike1234567]

I've been following this thread out of curiousity and I know nothing about making black powder. I do have a question though. It seems logical to me to mix both the wet and dry components together (extra wet) and use large steel ball bearings to mix (mill?) the components in a tumbler. To me, it just seems like the easiest and most effective way. I'd be too chicken to use a tumbler with dry components even with lead balls.

[kwhi43@kc.rr.com]

Nobody has said anything about using kitchen matches to fire your percussion
guns. Don't any of you know about this? I used it many years ago when I could not afford caps, it works GREAT!. You can also use them to re-load
modern primers, which I have done also. One day I am going to have to write
a book on all this stuff.

[crazyjennyblack]

@ Mike1234567 -

Those of you who know may correct me, but wouldn't using steel balls increase the likelihood of a spark? Seems riskier to me than using lead balls.

What do they use in ball mills, anyway?

[Mike1234567]

@ Mike1234567 -

Those of you who know may correct me, but wouldn't using steel balls increase the likelihood of a spark?

Of course... if used with dry mix but I suggested using them in wet medium.;)

[ofitg]

Nobody has said anything about using kitchen matches to fire your percussion
guns. Don't any of you know about this? I used it many years ago when I could not afford caps, it works GREAT!. You can also use them to re-load
modern primers, which I have done also. One day I am going to have to write
a book on all this stuff.

kwhi43, I can vouch for that. I have used a razor blade to cleave the ignitor tips off "strike anywhere" kitchen matches, and then glued those tips into empty Tap-O-Cap hulls with droplets of my wife's nail polish. Worked just fine!

Twenty years ago those "strike anywhere" kitchen matches were sold most everywhere, but now they're getting hard to find (around here, at least).

[kwhi43@kc.rr.com]

You can still buy them at my local Ace Hardware store. Just cut them off as
you say and stick them right on the nipple. You don't even have to use a
Tap-O-Cap. A little beeswax or candle wax will do.

[Pete D.]

When I have milled BP, I have used ceramic elements. Various sized pieces cut from what appears to be ceramic rod. I put the mill out in the woods at the end of of 150 feet of power cord. Some people use lead balls ; some use bearings.
I am unsure that boiling Potassium Nitrate and adding it to sulfur and charcoal will result in total incorporation of all three of the ingredients; It might do a good job combining the KNO3 with the other two but that is only part of the job.
Milling is how the large makers do it.
Pete

[Jaymo]

+1 on Backwoodsman magazine and the Foxfire books. You'd love them, Levi.
Especially Foxfire 5. It has the big chapters on ironmaking, blacksmithing, building flintlocks, and making black powder.
Backwoodsman magazing is one of my favorites. Right up there with Muzzleloader, Home Shop Machinist, and Machinist's Workshop.

IF you can find it, pick up a copy of Bushcraft, by Richard Greaves. It is a fantastic wilderness survival book, covering about all facets of the subject.
I can't recommend it highly enough. I've had a copy since 1982, when a buddy of mine brought his copy to 6th grade recess, and I was enthralled. Guess what I asked for for my birthday(and received)?

How long does it take for urine to become stale? I know if you keep it too long, it smells like pure ammonia. I made a small batch once, about 100 grains weight, and it burned slower than Goex.

I'd love to know what experiences people here have had with white powder/60% saltpeter-40% white sugar.

[arcticap]

Rachen posted on TFL about making a sulfur free powder which he recently referred to as "Coconut powder". :)

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=450111&highlight=homemade

[Busyhands94]

i also forgot to address how fun it is knowing you can make your own flints. i I'm not going to pay for rocks! that's not the kind of man i am! some like to buy flint and some like to make it. I am the kind of guy who likes making his own. i love the fact that when i am out fishing i can go take a look over by the rocks to find my flint. i love it when i find a big hunk of it! it's like finding a brick of percussion caps while your walking through the woods. i like it!

[kBob]

You just hit on one reason a Florida Boy doesn't see much advantage in going flintlock for lower case survivalism. You will spend a while searchinf for flint here. I supose one can use blue chirt after it is chiped from a limestone nodule that has started to turn, but after your work it may very well shatter at first use or just not be hard and sharp enough dispite te effort.

The way I got shooting time my last two years of college was Joining Army ROTC and signing the contract. ( As a prior Enlisted man I already had credit for the first two years)I joined the ROTC sponsored rifle team and shot .22 match rifles two to three times a week for those two school years and shot everything from the M-16A1 to the M-102 105mm Howitzer during the summer in between. I used some of my summer camp money to buy a Colt conversion unit for my previously owned Colt .45 auto and sometimes got to shoot it with Uncle Sam's rim-fire ammo after letting the unit use it for training.

Admitedly the only Black powder I shot during that time was the initiator pellets in the M72A3 LAW, the 81 mm Mortar, and 105mm Howitzer at camp though.

I also had a decent paying job immediately upon graduation that allowed me to buy interesting guns on both sides of the Atlantic.

ROTC used to offer a four year scholarship to those that could make the grade and it included a monthly stipend all four years.

Just a thought.....and you don't have to blow yourself up.....though someone else might do it for you.

-kBob