Not another Saiga 12 ban thread.


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bkjeffrey
August 2, 2011, 05:42 AM
I have no intention on this turning into a Saiga 12 ban thread, theres plenty of those and were all tired of hearing the hype.

This is intended to actually be an NFA discussion. Please dont jump me.

So lets just assume the ATF does determine the S12 to not be a "sporting" gun and impose a no-importation ruling. The idea (my internet reading) is that all current S12 owners would then be in posession an AOW because of the avaliability of 20 round drum magazines, (I dont even know if this is correct, accurate or true.) thus requiring all current owners to register their firearms as AOWs.

If the said firearm was regestered prior as an SBS would the registration requirement for AOW be null?

Again, I'm strictly speaking from a hypothetical situation. I dont want to talk about the impending ban on them, as I said theres enough of that. This situation could apply to any imported firearm for instance.

Thoughts..........?

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Sky
August 2, 2011, 08:07 AM
Good question and with all the weirdness going on and happening to our dealers it is a good point. Some of our dealers here in south Texas got a visit from 5 feds; ICE, ATF, and Boarder patrol. Anyone who purchases over 2 rifles ( in 5 days ) or does a bulk ammo purchase ( what is bulk ) the shop is suppose to call the Feds so they can do an interview with the purchaser if they want. When a purchase is made now you will include your phone number.

If you had the Saiga 12 and were breaking it in with your 20 round mag if a fed wanted to; could he cause you problems if there was a ban on imports and you had one? Maybe they should be more concerned with letting guns be sold in a fast and furious scenario than some poor schmuck that buys a rifle and a shotgun from a dealer and sees a pistol he wants too. Sorry do not mean to sound like a rant; it just strikes me as a form of intimidation for law abiding citizens regardless of some misguided nice intentions by our officials.

I do not know but would certainly be interested in some of the replies from much more knowledgeable people than me. Entanglements both foreign and domestic are not something I want to waste my time with. This stuff keeps up I will just sell everything and get a bow and arrow or when they out law them maybe a spear! Watch; the spear can only be a certain length and only have the pointy end not to exceed 3 inches! hahahah

bkjeffrey
August 2, 2011, 08:22 AM
If you had the Saiga 12 and were breaking it in with your 20 round mag if a fed wanted to; could he cause you problems if there was a ban on imports and you had one?

I (clears throat).....read on the internet......that part of the reason of the study was initiated was because of the availability of 20 rounders....(that post will make the price jump on the magazines for sure.)

I have no idea as to the facts of this assumption, especially since I will never pay the price they want for those monstrosities of a magazine. I am more curious if it would be beneficial to SBS a S12 to avoid any possible future legislation regarding them AOWs IF a ban was enacted.

Sam1911
August 2, 2011, 08:48 AM
bkjeffrey, I think you're getting a few issues mixed together here, and missing some of the differences between classifications of Title II "shotguns."

There are firearms which may not be imported because they are "non-sporting" which may still be owned, used, and produced here in the US as a Title I firearm. That's what the whole 922(r) compliance thing is about. That's why Saigas come here in "neutered" form. In "converted" form, they would not be importable, but once imported, they can be reconfigured as a "Made In the USA" gun, which doesn't have to meet those "sporting" criteria.

The ATF just released a rather odd study which found, it appears, that IF these guns were being imported in "converted" form, that wouldn't be legal ... but they aren't, so they are legal. The paper almost seemed to say, "We have determined that things are o.k. as they are...carry on." :confused: This, of course, has alarmed the pants off of the shooting community. :)

...

I think what you are asking is, what if guns which are converted to "non-sporting" form are suddenly declared to be Title II weapons?

They won't be "Any Other Weapons." In the case of shotguns, the "Any Other Weapon" classification only applies to shot-firing weapons configured as smooth-bore handguns. And, those firearms cannot at any point have had installed a shoulder stock. So the little PGO super-sub-compact guns like the Sebu Super Shortys are "AOWs." Unless you get a bare AK receiver and build your own Saiga 12 PGO-style gun on it, you WON'T have an AOW.

Of course, if a full-sized shotgun is cut down so that the barrel is under 18" and/or the total length of the weapon is under 26", it will become a "Short-Barreled Shotgun." But that wouldn't apply to a normal Saiga anyway. You COULD register yours as one, if you want, and cut it down (or not) as you see fit.

The possibility that has some folks concerned is that the ATF could reclassify Saigas -- or more likely converted Saigas -- as "Large Bore Destructive Devices." All guns over .50" caliber are large-bore DDs, unless exempted (and the term "sporting" does come into play). Shotguns are pretty much universally exempted. Some large hunting rifle cartridges and oddball target wildcat cartridges are as well. Occasionally, a gun so alarms the powers that be that they decide to remove the exemption for that gun -- as happened with the SPAS-12, Street Sweeper, etc.

It could happen with converted Saiga 12s. It seems pretty unlikely -- just IMHO, of course -- because there are SO many of them out there. This would be a major inconvenience to hundreds of thousands of owners. Not just the few hundred (maybe few thousand?) SPAS 12 owners there were the last time this came up. Part of the "sporting" declaration seems to hinge on whether or not this is a firearm that is in common use for sporting purposes. If there aren't many around, a negative decision is easier to justify than if there are MANY.

So, I don't think it would happen, but it could. If you put your Saiga 12 into the registry as an SBS (you can't register it as an AOW. It CAN'T ever be one) then it would already be Title II registered, just as it would have to be if declared a large-bore destructive device.

So you might "beat the rush" so to speak (though I don't know if there's a benefit to that) and in the mean time, you could cut it down to a shorty and have more :evil: fun.

One possible down-side, sort of, is that sometimes when classifications are changed after the fact, owners are offered the chance to register their existing guns tax-free. You might save $200 -- if a DD registration ever is imposed -- by waiting. But, then, it would be registered as a Destructive Device, not an SBS, so you still couldn't cut it down.

(Whew...did that make sense?)

Sky
August 2, 2011, 08:55 AM
Great post Sam!

bkjeffrey
August 2, 2011, 08:59 AM
(Whew...did that make sense?)

Perfect sense.

Ok, how about this, if an S12 owner had a converted S12, 922 compliant, that was later registered as an SBS and a DD registration is imposed in the future by ATF where would that owner stand then? Free and clear of any requirement I would assume, like an MG trumps an SBR, (I think)?

Did that make sense?

And BTW Sam, thank you for taking the time to write that post up there.

Prince Yamato
August 2, 2011, 12:49 PM
The order of classification in terms of what trumps what is:

MG
DD
SBR/SBS
AOW

In other words, if your greater than .50 cal item has a 1" barrel, it's not an sbs, it's a large bore dd with a short barrel.

PTK
August 2, 2011, 12:59 PM
That seems to be the case as long as the firearm in question isn't "sporting". If it is, then it's generally a SBS.

Sam1911
August 2, 2011, 02:38 PM
The order of classification in terms of what trumps what is:

MG
DD
SBR/SBS
AOW

In other words, if your greater than .50 cal item has a 1" barrel, it's not an sbs, it's a large bore dd with a short barrel.

P.Y., can you perhaps flesh out a little how you made those conclusions? Just curious.

Sam1911
August 2, 2011, 02:44 PM
registered as an SBS and a DD registration is imposed in the future by ATF where would that owner stand then?
A good question. I would tend to believe that the ATF would be satisfied that it was in the registry, period, but you just never know. I wonder if there WERE any SBS-ed Street Sweepers or SPAS-12s (not sure a SPAS-12 could be cut down that far...proablby not) which faced this kind of re-classification muddle back then?

The problem with the "this trumps that" way of looking at it is that it isn't consistent. A machine gun is a machine gun, with a stock or without and with a 3" barrel or a 30" barrel. But a Destructive Device would not automatically be legal to cut down to <18".

Similarly, having your rifle registered as an SBR doesn't automatically cover you to convert it into 20mm, either. (Large Bore Destructive Device.)

JustinJ
August 2, 2011, 04:45 PM
"The ATF just released a rather odd study which found, it appears, that IF these guns were being imported in "converted" form, that wouldn't be legal ... but they aren't, so they are legal. The paper almost seemed to say, "We have determined that things are o.k. as they are...carry on." This, of course, has alarmed the pants off of the shooting community."

Its been a while since i read the study but it appeared to me that they were implying the saiga 12 does not need to be converted to be a "non-sporting" shotgun because it can accept high capacity drum magazines in its imported form. If i recall, a gun that has any of the listed "evil" featurers should not be imported and detachable high cap mag is such a feature.

I've read that in the past the ATF has allowed for periods in which people were able to register guns that were reclassified at no cost to help ensure compliance.

Prince Yamato
August 2, 2011, 10:47 PM
P.Y., can you perhaps flesh out a little how you made those conclusions? Just curious.

No problem.

The biggest item that the BATF looks at is the multiple shots with one pull of the trigger (MGs). Anything that falls in that category is a machine gun, regardless of caliber or barrel length. The next heavily regulated is the destructive devices. I listed this as #2 because it splits into two categories; large bore destructive devices and explosive ordnance and because DDs aren't governed by barrel length, only caliber. Third, I placed SBRs and SBSs because those are governed by barrel length and caliber. AOWs are last because they're very specific devices.

So:

MGs: Only governed by multiple shots from a single trigger pull
DD: Governed by trigger function and bore size (and explosive properties to an extent)
SBR/SBS: Governed by trigger function, bore size/type, and barrel length
AOW: Specific type of devices.

kozak6
August 5, 2011, 04:55 AM
It seems doubtful that the Saiga would be specifically targeted for legal restrictions. If it were, the BATFE would have done it by now.

Anyways, this exact thing happened back in 1994. There were SBS Streetsweepers and USAS-12's when they were declared DD's. So, then, the real question is what happened to them?

At any rate, I would think a DD could have a short barrel. The section about MG's says nothing about barrel length, so short barreled MG's are ok. The section about DD's also says nothing about barrel length, so it would make sense for short barreled DD's to be ok as well. But it would be best to get a letter beforehand just to be sure.

If you are concerned about the shotgun importability study, I think it's more about establishing a sporting test for imported shotguns that will also apply to domestic shotguns due to NFA law.

Strykervet
August 15, 2011, 05:11 PM
I think what happened to the street sweepers when they got DD status is that the owners got grandfather status. They could keep them, but they couldn't sell them. When they die, they go to a dealer I guess? That is the best I recall.

Now I don't know what happens if you can't have AOW in your state but you get grandfather status... I guess you have to move or sell it.

As far as the fellow said about selling off everything for a bow or spear... Well, you have firearms for a reason, and that reason is to protect the US Constitution against all enemies foreign AND domestic. When they come door to door doing illegal search and seizure, it is OKAY to shoot them! That is when you are SUPPOSED to shoot them, when they become domestic enemies or the appartus of domestic enemies, same difference.

Remember, everything done in Nazi Germany was done legally. They had a court with a judge to prove it.

Sam1911
August 15, 2011, 07:04 PM
When the USAS-12 and Street Sweepers were declared DDs, the owners were allowed to register them tax-exempt.

JustinJ
August 16, 2011, 04:59 PM
koza6: "It seems doubtful that the Saiga would be specifically targeted for legal restrictions. If it were, the BATFE would have done it by now."

I'm not debating if it will or won't happen but things can often move very slowly at the federal level. Not to mention the ATF is quite preoccupied at the moment.

Strykervet: "I think what happened to the street sweepers when they got DD status is that the owners got grandfather status. They could keep them, but they couldn't sell them."

Its my understanding that they still had to be registered but at no cost to the original owners.

Strykervet: "When they come door to door doing illegal search and seizure, it is OKAY to shoot them! That is when you are SUPPOSED to shoot them, when they become domestic enemies or the appartus of domestic enemies, same difference."

If that happens to another are you going to head on over and join the fight against the government? How about just pay for the lawyer assuming one survives a shoot out with feds?

kozak6
August 19, 2011, 03:13 AM
When the USAS-12 and Street Sweepers were declared DDs, the owners were allowed to register them tax-exempt.

Yep. What happened with the ones registered as SBS's?

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