Full Auto Questions?


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browning308
August 3, 2011, 07:07 PM
I'v been curious with fully auto weapons lately and would like to know what it takes to get one. I know that you have to pay $200 and fill out a bunch of stuff but what are the detailed steps? Also say if you by an ar-15 or a ruger 10-22, could you convert it fully auto cheaper than just bying a class c-3 weapon because that is my plan. If so how?

Thanks, chris

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BeltFedEd
August 3, 2011, 07:24 PM
To start, if a machine gun wasn't registered before May 18, 1986 it is contraband for us common folk.

You can NOT convert an AR, 10/22 or any firearm to fire automatically. You can purchase a registered DIAS for an AR or a registered trigger pack for a 10/22.

Steps in purchase.

First have a clean criminal record.

Find a Class 3 dealer in your area if the gun is out of state. A dealer isn't necessary for in-state transfers.

-Find a NFA firearm for sale. Agree on terms of payment with the seller.
-Fill out (in duplicate) a Form 4, Certificate of Compliance, and Finger print cards.
-Send all completed forms and $200 to the ATF.
-Wait
-Wait
-Wait
-Wait some more.
-When the paper work is approved it will be sent to the seller. You can now take possession of your new toy

Almost forgot, make sure they are legal in your state.

AlexanderA
August 3, 2011, 08:27 PM
In addition, one of the biggest hurdles is getting the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) of your locality to sign off on your Form 4, stating that he has "no knowledge" that you would use the gun illegally or that possession would be in violation of local law. Many outright refuse to do so, for anyone, and without giving any reason. This leads to various workarounds, one of which is setting up an "NFA trust" to take formal title to the weapons.

GoingQuiet
August 3, 2011, 08:54 PM
I'v been curious with fully auto weapons lately and would like to know what it takes to get one. I know that you have to pay $200 and fill out a bunch of stuff but what are the detailed steps? Also say if you by an ar-15 or a ruger 10-22, could you convert it fully auto cheaper than just bying a class c-3 weapon because that is my plan. If so how?

Thanks, chris
See the FAQ on my website http://goingquiet.com/faq/

Also, no such thing as c-3. It is a tax bracket not an item.

Aaron Baker
August 3, 2011, 08:54 PM
Apparently the refusal to sign off is rampant in some places. Everyone I've spoken to here in Lexington, KY says they can't get CLEO signoff. That's why I've started drafting trusts for people. (I'm a lawyer by trade.) But the best part is that trusts actually have additional benefits. The main one is that if you're married, you can make you and your spouse trustees of the trust, and then you can both possess the NFA items in the trust.

On the topic of this thread, you should realize how expensive full auto is, OP. It's not the steps and the $200 that are the hurdle. It's the cost of the weapon itself. The cheapest is a MAC-type weapon, which is usually in the $3k range, while M16s are closer to $20k. The prices vary a bit with the market, but those are good ballpark figures for someone who wants to know what they're getting into.

Aaron

kingpin008
August 3, 2011, 09:10 PM
Also say if you by an ar-15 or a ruger 10-22, could you convert it fully auto cheaper than just bying a class c-3 weapon because that is my plan.

I don't say this to put down the OP, but I read things like this quite a bit in regards to full-auto toys, and I wonder why people think that it'd work. I mean really, if there was some way to get around the exorbitant cost, transfer process, and background check/CLEO/trust nonsense of full-auto weapons, don't you think it would have been figured out by now? Why would the things still cost tens of thousands of dollars if there was a cheaper work-around?

I don't mean to rant, but it's a pretty silly (and apparently not uncommon) critical thinking fail.

243winxb
August 3, 2011, 09:18 PM
Finding a place to shoot full auto can be another problem. Guns for sale > http://www.subguns.com/

Hanzo581
August 3, 2011, 09:30 PM
The $200 tax stamp and the paperwork is really not a big concern if you have patience. It's the exorbitant cost of full auto weapons that is the problem. Though there may be "deals" out there.

http://www.impactguns.com/machine-guns.aspx

browning308
August 3, 2011, 09:39 PM
Thanks so much for the replies, now i know its illegal to just go by a gun a make it full auto:p Im hoping to find some good deals, im just surfing the web and things seem pricey "which i know they will be" but there are a couple of good deals!! Oh and Kingpin008, i understand that now, so sorry to make you mad for asking a dumb question:p

Hanzo581
August 3, 2011, 09:41 PM
Better you ask here then end up in Federal prison.

medalguy
August 3, 2011, 10:21 PM
Just to add a comment to what BeltFedEd said, you do NOT have to buy from a dealer, if you are lucky enough to locate a gun for sale in your own state by an individual such as yourself. You can deal directly with the seller. You still have to comply with all federal requirements. Most likely, however, you will find something in another state, and this DOES require a transfer from state to state through FFLs, just like any other firearm. When the FFL in your state receives the weapon, you can submit the paperwork to purchase the firearm from your local dealer. This dealer MUST possess the proper class of FFL.

kingpin008
August 3, 2011, 10:33 PM
Browning308 - You didn't make me mad. Like I said, I just never understood that particular line of reasoning. I guess to me, it just stands to reason that if there was a way to not have to pay the prices, there wouldn't be high prices in the first place, ya know? If my comment came off as rude or insulting, it was not my intention. Just something I see every now and again that always makes me go "huh??".:cool:

If it makes you feel any better, you're definitely not the first to have that particular lightbulb go off. A lot of us wish it were that easy, but no such luck. :(

AlexanderA
August 3, 2011, 10:46 PM
Regarding interstate transfers of NFA weapons, it's worth noting that a big class of them, that is, C&R's (anything 50 or more years old, and certain others, such as West Hurley Thompsons), can go to the buyer directly if that person has a C&R FFL. That would streamline the process somewhat.

browning308
August 4, 2011, 12:05 PM
One more question, i see civilians on youtube and all of that stuff shooting brand new ar-15's and all of that stuff full auto, how? I thought it had to be weapons in 1986 and before?

kingpin008
August 4, 2011, 12:22 PM
Browning - it could be a few things. There are things like Slide Fire Stocks that allow users to "bump fire" their AR's, which more or less simulates full-auto fire without spending the money. They could also be shooting a new-manufacture AR with a "lightning link" or registered drop-in auto sear.

Also, most people who are able to afford FA weapons take pretty good care of them, due to the high cost and relative scarcity of the weapons. So they might look like new guns, but in reality be a couple decades old.

I suppose that some of them could be dealer samples as well. The '86 cutoff was exactly that, but with a few exceptions. Properly licensed dealers/manufacturers can still manufacture new FA weapons, but only for LEO or military, or as "samples" to be passed around to other dealers.

mboylan
August 4, 2011, 03:50 PM
Thanks so much for the replies, now i know its illegal to just go by a gun a make it full auto:p Im hoping to find some good deals, im just surfing the web and things seem pricey "which i know they will be" but there are a couple of good deals!! Oh and Kingpin008, i understand that now, so sorry to make you mad for asking a dumb question:p
Those good deals are very likely dealer samples. You can't own them. The dealer won't transfer them to you. You can only buy transferables.

Anything that is marked post 86 sample, pre-86 sample or dealer sample are totally off limits to you.

There is no way to get around spending thousands on a full-auto weapon.

rcmodel
August 4, 2011, 04:30 PM
If so how?
The first thing you need to do is determine if you live in a state that allows machinguns or not.
There are 9 or so states that do not.

Next, your local city or county laws may prohibite them even if the State doesn't.

rc

BeltFedEd
August 4, 2011, 04:35 PM
Browning,

Registered DIAS, Drop In Auto Sear. A DIAS allows you to fire an unmodified AR-15 full auto. See my post above.

image from www.quarterbore.com
http://www.quarterbore.com/images/JCBDIAS_01.JPG

With the installation of a Registered DIAS and full auto fire control components, you can run just about any AR-15 full auto. DIAS's are running around $12,000 - $14,000.

Then there is the Lighting Link.

image from www.quarterbore.com
http://www.quarterbore.com/images/nfalightninglink-01.jpg

Go to Quarterbore's web site. Lots of info on the DIAS and Lighting Link. http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/dias.html

On a side note. About the cheapest machine guns on the market are MAC-10, M11/9, and Sten. Expect to pay in the neighborhood of $3,000. Other than that you are dead in the water. For us common folk there is no less expensive way to truely and legally go full auto.

Here are two good places to get a feel of prices.

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale.cgi
http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/?db=nfafirearms&category=All+Items+in+this+Category&query=category&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=headlines

BeltFedEd
August 4, 2011, 05:04 PM
Browning,

To save yourself a bunch of head ache and frustration, here is a good book to educate yourself on the world of NFA weapons.

From http://www.machinegunbooks.com/

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/iannamico/mgbsite/mgbg.jpg


It is in-stock at Ohio Ordnance Works. Look about half way down the page. Well worth $15.
http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/Books_Manuals.cat

BK
August 4, 2011, 08:02 PM
i see civilians on youtube and all of that stuff shooting brand new ar-15's and all of that stuff full auto, how?
Youtube videos are not exclusively from the United States. Many of those videos are from other countries.

CapnMac
August 4, 2011, 08:37 PM
i see civilians on youtube and all of that stuff shooting brand new

Well, there is this very strange effect where a certain population segment seems to feel that "everything is legal on the internet" with a corollary of "everyone else does it" too. This is not merely weapons-related, but to a number of things of questionable legality (CraigsList being rife with examples).

The fact that probably over 90% of NFA compliance is self-imposed (since B(AT)FE does not swoop down on every tiny infraction) will abet this. Add in the general lack of general knowledge on this subject (or similar firearms knowledge) and you can get a high "dufus factor" on youtube.

CapnMac
August 4, 2011, 08:46 PM
Oh, and another thing to factor into your purchase decision has not been pointed out here--ammunition cost.

It's possible that a given FA might have a lower price, and look a "bargain" but miss the fact that it uses some hard-to-come-by ammo. (Think belted Lebel, or some of the 7.5's or of 6.6 and 7.7 Japanese; and the various Italian rounds in bulk.)

This is why people with Vickers MGs love conversion kits, like 8mm and 7.62x54R for their .303 weapons. There are a number of fora out there on how one "convinces" these ammo choices into feed belts in a reliable way. Or the Browning 1919, which can be rebarreled in a number of calibers.

For some weapons, the feeding devices are expensive too--the strip and clip loaders for Italian and Japanese weapons, in working order, can be pricy.

Bubbles
August 5, 2011, 07:52 AM
One more question, i see civilians on youtube and all of that stuff shooting brand new ar-15's and all of that stuff full auto, how? I thought it had to be weapons in 1986 and before?
They could be SOT's shooting firearms in the business inventory, range rentals, shooting outside the US, etc.

GoingQuiet
August 5, 2011, 10:49 AM
One more question, i see civilians on youtube and all of that stuff shooting brand new ar-15's and all of that stuff full auto, how? I thought it had to be weapons in 1986 and before?
If you take a drop in auto sear and put it in a new gun, wouldn't it look like you are shooting a brand new gun?

tarosean
August 5, 2011, 07:09 PM
One more question, i see civilians on youtube and all of that stuff shooting brand new ar-15's and all of that stuff full auto, how? I thought it had to be weapons in 1986 and before?

Most of them are dealer samples = Unobtainable by the average joe

Jim K
August 6, 2011, 08:59 PM
Medalguy wrote, "Most likely, however, you will find something in another state, and this DOES require a transfer from state to state through FFLs, just like any other firearm."

True but a dealer in the seller's state is not necessary for shipping any firearm and an NFA item is no exception. Further, if the item is a C&R (like a WWII STEN) once the transfer has been approved, it can be shipped interstate by the seller directly to the buyer IF the buyer is the holder of a C&R license. No dealer is necessary on either end.

Jim

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