another calculator: http://www.handloads.com/calc/
August 7, 2011, 11:22 AM
How does your gun shoot at that range? Shoot a few targets at that range with surplus M2 to set a benchmark to compare any other ammo to. Theroy is great but it is the practical application that counts....chris3
August 7, 2011, 11:22 AM
Sorry, I meant .30 M1 Carbine, not .30-06.
August 7, 2011, 12:28 PM
BC = Ballistic Coefficient; MRT = Mid-Range Trajectory; yards = yds.; inches = "; MPBR = Maximum Point Blank Range
.30 Carbine (110 RN at 1990) .144--+2.8"-----=-8.2"--------+3"@85---- 171yds
Information from Chuck Hawks page.
It should shoot 450yds, but more like a mortar.
August 7, 2011, 12:34 PM
It's worth remembering that the .30 M1 Carbine was intended as a handgun replacement for other than frontline troops in WWII. As a pistol round, it is equivalent to a .30 magnum...other than in Elmer Keith's hands, a handgun is not a useful 450yd tool.
August 7, 2011, 01:37 PM
An '06, zeroed at 200 yards, drops about two feet at 400 yards; four feet at 500.
Most likely zero for the Carbine would be around 100 yards, so I wouldn't be at all surprised for a drop of eight or ten feet at 450.
And that's just sitting here staring at the monitor, not using tables. :)
August 7, 2011, 02:34 PM
Given a 110 grain FMJ-RN @ 1990, with a BC of .178 and a 100 yard zero, drop at 450 yards would be about 9 feet.
There is a term for .30 Carbine shooting at 450 yards. It's called indirect fire.:D
August 7, 2011, 05:49 PM
I once had a Browning Hi Power with tangent sight, that, after using it on a big flatfaced rock along the ravine and stone ledge next to the shooting range, I could set the the sight on the 350 meter mark, and could smack the rock (laser ranged at 422 yards). I would guess that any M1 Carbine capable of 2-3" groups at 100 yds could easily be held high at 450, and do as well. Given marksmanship abilities, the AVERAGE soldier probably could not consistently plug a full size silhouette target at 450 with ANY of the US military rifles or carbines ( average GI here, not infantry or sniper). BUT, an infantryman with an expert rifle rating (and ability), or sniper, and just a little practice with the carbine, could almost assuredly smack targets at 450 with the M1 carbine. Right out of the gate with an unfamiliar weapon, no, but give them a little time on the range, then YES.
August 7, 2011, 06:29 PM
I shot an M1 Carbine at a 200 yd competition. The ballistics had it dropping 8 inches between 175 & 225 yds. I wasn't shooting great ammo either. I didn't come in last!
August 7, 2011, 06:36 PM
If a squad of 13 guys fired their M-1 carbines at once in a Volley-Fire, an enemy soldier at 400 yards MIGHT be slightly wounded. It's a pistol/revolver cartridge and nothing more.
I'm fairly certain that many deer have fallen to this cartridge at close range by experienced woodsmen.
August 7, 2011, 07:07 PM
A squad, huh? :) OK. Just did a ballistic chart for the .30 carbine: 1900fps @ muzzle, sighted at 200 yard zero. It will hit about 8" high at 100 yards, and 3" shy of 12 FEET LOW @450 yards. Translated, hold about 10 feet over your targets head. Now, the bad part. If you choose to let yourself stand there, and let a squad of guys with M1 carbines shoot at you at 450 yards, don't laugh at them in the open too long. The .30 cal bullets will be cutting into you (110grs) at about 824fps, about the same as a .32ACP at the muzzle, but the bullets will be almost 40gr heavier than the .32. :p
August 7, 2011, 07:23 PM
Additonal bad news. The .30 carbine has more energy @450 yards than the .223 55gr FMJ @700 yds. Yes, we know the carbine is a more short range weapon, but 450 yards is not enough to put you out of harms way. Our guys occasionally take shots @600-800 yards with the M16, and expect killing shots. Lots of factors to argue here. If you shorten the barrel on the M16 (M4), or calculate with the M855 ammo, etc, everything changes (up & down). If you use an M4 with the heavy GI ammo, but try to use it too far out, it poops out, too. Given that 80-90% of MOST IF NOT ALL combat firefights occur at 200 or less yards, an M1 carbine with softpoint ammo might be as deadly as any M16 variant or ammo.
August 7, 2011, 07:31 PM
I would guess that any M1 Carbine capable of 2-3" groups at 100 yds could easily be held high at 450, and do as well.
I'll take that bet, every day of the week.
August 7, 2011, 07:38 PM
Given normal accuracy of 3" @ 100, we're talking a possible group roughly 14-16" @ 450 yds (3"/100 x 4.5). You do understand that, right? If I had a 450 yd range to fire on, I'd be up to do it with my guns, but I don't think it would be fair, as mine are a little more accurate than 3"/100yds................:)
August 7, 2011, 07:48 PM
Realistically the M1 carbine was an assault weapon before they had been named. In it's M2 selective fire variation, it fills all the requirements. Think of it that way and employ it like you would any other .30 caliber assault rifle (*cough*AK47*cough*) and it'll do well. Try to use it as a battle rifle ala the M1903 or the M1 Garand and you'll get in trouble.
August 7, 2011, 07:55 PM
Given normal accuracy of 3" @ 100, we're talking a possible group roughly 14-16" @ 450 yds (3"/100 x 4.5). You do understand that, right?
You've never shot LR, have you? You simply can't take a 100 yard group and multiply by the number of 100 yards increments you are shooting at to get what the group should be. If that were so, all my 1,000 yard groups (not with a M1 Carbine) would be less than 10".
August 7, 2011, 08:08 PM
I would think a .30 carbine at 450 yards may still have the ability to completely penetrate a human torso, potentially creating more than a slight wound. I can think of better things than being shot in the head and torso point blank by a .32 pistol, but that's just me.
At the more realistic range of within 25 yard, the .30 carbine from an 18" barrel (such as that of the M1 carbine) possesses the energy to roughly that of a .44 Remington magnum (950+ ft/lbs). In my opinion, the M1 carbine is out of its element beyond 150 yards, where it's "energy" drops down to that of a .357 magnum.
At 25 yards and with JHP/JSP, I have no doubt the M1 carbine will reliably/realistically drop the biggest and baddest of men.
August 7, 2011, 09:02 PM
Bigger people are easier to hit, as well as kill. Organs are larger in size, therefore easier to put a hole through. It aint like they have thicker skin....:D
No issues with hunting whitetail deer and hogs with the M1Carbine here. I use 110gr soft points and keep the shots inside of 100yds
August 7, 2011, 09:10 PM
Actually, I've shot at 1000 on several occasions at Camp Perry. I understand what you are saying, but we are talking theoretical, and in some instances, rifles shoot BETTER at ranges beyond 100 yards. A 100 yard group is just a measurement. I've shot on almost windless days, and that sure helps a lot. Will a marksman always hit a target at a reachable range, like 450? Naw. Throw in stress, a micro-movement of the body, a gust of wind; there goes the mini-group. But, a man sized target is just a tad bigger than a POSSIBLE group from a stock carbine. Could a guy hit 50% of the time at that range? I'd be happy with that. In combat, even 1 out of 3 shots would be great, especially if it was shot #1. :D I recently shot a 200 yard group with my GI Saginaw SG carbine that came in under 3". I'm sure it won't happen all the time, but it is possible, on occasion. That is why I have faith in PROBABLE hits at longer ranges with the carbine. I have a lot of "holdover" shooting in, with such guns as 300 Whisper and subsonics, and even the 510 Whisper (also subsonic with 600+ grain bullets) at 600 yards. Not sure of possible groups at that range, as it was informal shooting (with API bulets, which will let you know where you are hitting on rocks.:D). Of course, in combat conditions, target are obscured, ranges are unknown, the shooting is fast and furious, and you don't always wait to see if you have a hit. It is still interesting to practice the long shots, and your range estimation and performance are always better as a result of it.
August 7, 2011, 09:13 PM
M1 Carbine round at 450 yards= probably 8 FEET of drop(most likey more).
Id bet most everything between shooter and target is in danger. Target pretty safe.
August 7, 2011, 10:28 PM
To repeat a story: I once worked with a guy who had been a USMC medic from Guadalcanal on northward through the islands. His comment was that if a Japanese squad was seen out at, say, 600 or 800 yards and guys with carbines opened up, "...they didn't even break stride." His exact words. When the Garands started chugging, it was scatter-time.
August 7, 2011, 11:34 PM
My dad served in the Phillipines. He was issued a carbine, and said he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with it. I always believed him, until I started shooting one. I never beat him up over it; a vet can develope any opinion of any gun he wants. They deserve the right. He dumped it and carried a Garand shortly after hitting the first island, in addition to the 81mm mortar parts or ammo (he was a mortarman). I think the biggest complaint there was inadequate penetration in the jungles, and the Japanese doping up and taking more than a carbine round to go down. The disdain for the carbine by the infantry ahead of him was probably what made him shoot so poorly with the carbine, not the accuracy of the carbine itself. But, we're talking can it hit at 450 in this discussion, and I think it can. There are certainly better fighting rifles, but few as portable or handy in close quarters. My carbines are consistently more accurate than my AK variants.
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