How young can one be to own an SBR?


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Messenger Guard
August 8, 2011, 08:32 PM
My son really loves my recently built, registered SBR. I gifted him one of my 16" ARs but he is already talking about SBRing it. Is eighteen old enough since it is the age to own long guns in general or does 21 apply in this case since it's not an in general weapon? All responses appreciated.

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GoingQuiet
August 8, 2011, 08:40 PM
If you are 18, you can BUILD your own SBR.

If you are 21 you can BUY your own SBR from a dealer.

Prince Yamato
August 10, 2011, 07:51 PM
You only have to be 21 to buy from a dealer. At 18, you can buy from an individual or, I presume make one yourself.

Dustin0
August 11, 2011, 10:37 AM
From what I have found. You must 21 to own a NFA item. Form 1 ask if you are under 21.

MasterSergeantA
August 11, 2011, 07:10 PM
I called the ATF to ask...and the agent with whom I spoke didn't know. (Surprise!?!) He is checking and is going to call me back. I am asking for a specific paragraph citation as I don't rely on opinions where these guys are concerned. The NFA does not specifically address age. The GCA allows for possession of a long gun by anyone over 18 (within other legal restrictions of course). I'll post what I get back.

Dustin0
August 12, 2011, 02:52 PM
Did you call the NFA branch ?

Vyacheslav
August 12, 2011, 11:07 PM
its 18 to make one, on the form where it asks you if you are under 21, you answer yes and in the comment section add that you are 18, 19, or 20

MasterSergeantA
August 17, 2011, 06:20 PM
I just spoke with the NFA branch and was told that it is 21 to make the SBR as well as transfer one. The gentleman with whom I spoke, Mr. Mason, said that he would provide me chapter and verse if I sent him an e-mail. He said that they "fall back" on the 4473 as their reason for ruling. An 18-year-old can buy a long gun, but not a handgun or a stripped receiver (listed simply as a "firearm"). He said that because the SBR was no longer a "long gun" and was now a "firearm made from a rifle" it was no longer legal for the 18-year-old to make, buy or own.

Prince Yamato
August 17, 2011, 06:47 PM
Yes, but if you purchase an nfa weapon from an individual, you don't have to do a 4473. You only have to do the form 4 and tax. Hence private sales at 18 are ok.

crazy-mp
August 17, 2011, 11:54 PM
Why don't you (Dad) just build it as a SBR, either through a 07/SOT or ATF form 1 and then fill out a ATF form 5 and when he is 21 its his free and clear.

Messenger Guard
August 18, 2011, 03:02 AM
To address your question, I already have a few. His AR is his. He has an interest in gunsmithing and wants his rifle to be SBRed by him. I can't blame him. To build something for yourself gives a sense of accomplishment that can't be bought with a premade item.

Sam1911
August 18, 2011, 08:51 AM
and then fill out a ATF form 5 and when he is 21 its his free and clear.


Do you have a belief that Dad (Messenger Guard) is going to die when his son turns 21? :eek:

Form 5 is for (among other things) tax-exempt transfer to an heir. "Heir" indicates disbursements of property after a death. Giving a rifle to a son isn't a bequest, it's just a gift, so it would have to be done on a Form 4.

Bubbles
August 18, 2011, 09:03 AM
1) You really need to speak with ATF Legal about this one, unless the guy at the NFA branch is going to kick your question over to them.

2) I would request a ruling in writing on ATF letterhead.

3) If ATF is says an SBR is no longer a "rifle", but merely a "firearm", as defined by the GCA, then 922(r) should definitely not apply to them - and I've read 'Yes' and 'No' from them on that particular question.

PTK
August 18, 2011, 11:36 AM
18+ for F1, 21+ for F4 from a dealer. I had NFA items (through F1s) at 19. ;)

I'll dig around, but there's already been more than one of us to receive a letter on this and subsequently get NFA items. If I can find the letters, mine or others, I'll post them for you.

GoingQuiet
August 19, 2011, 03:00 AM
18+ for F1, 21+ for F4 from a dealer. I had NFA items (through F1s) at 19. ;)

I'll dig around, but there's already been more than one of us to receive a letter on this and subsequently get NFA items. If I can find the letters, mine or others, I'll post them for you.
You forgot F4 from individual

MasterSergeantA
August 19, 2011, 11:11 AM
The NFA branch disagrees. But they have yet to offer me a citation as to the source of their opinion. What I was sent was information concerning the GCA and I pointed out that my question did NOT ask about that. I'll share whatever else I get.

Short answer: submit the Form 1 and see what happens.

GoingQuiet
August 19, 2011, 08:30 PM
The NFA branch disagrees. But they have yet to offer me a citation as to the source of their opinion. What I was sent was information concerning the GCA and I pointed out that my question did NOT ask about that. I'll share whatever else I get.

Short answer: submit the Form 1 and see what happens.
The NFA branch is wrong. This isnt the first time that NFA has told wrong things.

crazy-mp
August 20, 2011, 12:44 AM
The NFA branch is wrong.

Take that to court and see how that works out for you!

MasterSergeantA
August 20, 2011, 01:44 AM
And...the NFA branch is the one that approves the Form 1.

Good luck.

PTK
August 20, 2011, 11:30 AM
I haven't been able to find the letter, I'm sorry. I never thought I'd need it again...

Anyway, worst case, I'll dig out the other ones. I'd just rather post the letter to me, is all, but there is NOTHING in law preventing 18-20 year-olds from making NFA items.


EDIT: Here you go.

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/3823/nfaagerestrictions.jpg



"...the NFA is silent on age restrictions".

This is not my letter, however I received a quite similar one. Again, I had NFA items (on F1s) prior to turning 21. Call BS if you want, but... there's nothing in the law preventing it. The NFA tech branch can say what they want, but there would be no legal reason for a F1 denial. If denied, they'd have to put a reason. What is the legal reason? We don't feel like it? There are NO age restrictions in the NFA, and thus no legal reason to deny a F1.

PTK
August 20, 2011, 04:09 PM
What does that have to do with anything discussed in this thread?

Sam Cade
August 20, 2011, 08:43 PM
^ I believe you need an FFL in order to get an SB anything.

You believe incorrectly.


Anyone legal to own a firearm can make an SBR/SBS if its kosher in their state once the paperwork gets finished.

PTK
August 20, 2011, 08:51 PM
As Sam said, you're entirely incorrect. I couldn't get my FFL until I was 21, but had NFA items at 19..

Sam1911
August 20, 2011, 09:13 PM
I believe you need an FFL in order to get an SB anything.
Common enough misconception. SBRs or SBSs are just like machine guns or any other Title II item. You don't need any kind of license to buy, own, or even make them. Just fill out your Form 1 or Form 4, get approved, and you're good to go.

(No, you can't make a machine gun without an FFL and SOT2, but that's because of the registry being closed -- prior to 1986 you could.)

GoingQuiet
August 20, 2011, 11:29 PM
What does that have to do with anything discussed in this thread?
The point is that NFA is entirely possible under 21 - if built via Form 1 or purchased on Form 4 that is NOT from an FFL.

As the ATF letter states - the NFA is silent on age restrictions. The issue at hand here is that GCA and NFA both regulate dealer sales so there is no provision for an under 21 sale from FFL but there is an entirely open area because the same federal law that regulates FFL's do not restrict individual sales.

GoingQuiet
August 20, 2011, 11:30 PM
Take that to court and see how that works out for you!
I don't have to take it to court. Give me someone that is 18 that wants to do a Form 1 and so long as the form is done right, it will be approved by the appropriate examiner - so long as there are no state laws contrary to the application approval.

There are plenty of over 18 under 21 form 1's and form 4's that are legal and approved, without a court order.

scythefwd
August 21, 2011, 12:35 AM
Sam1911 - I'm not sure, but I believe that you can enact parts of a will premortim.

Sam1911
August 21, 2011, 07:14 AM
Sam1911 - I'm not sure, but I believe that you can enact parts of a will premortim.

I don't know if some parts can be or not. However, the provisions of GCA'68 which allow an heir to take possession of a firearm from the estate of someone who left a gun to them, without transferring it on a 4473, aren't applicable unless there's a decedent/heir -- death/disbursement situation. So I'd assume that the Form 5 transfer of an NFA weapon is similar.

I know some of our lawyer members have spoken on this before. I'll have to try to dig something up. (Har! Har!) :)

The Law
August 21, 2011, 11:01 AM
I don't know if some parts can be or not. However, the provisions of GCA'68 which allow an heir to take possession of a firearm from the estate of someone who left a gun to them, without transferring it on a 4473, aren't applicable unless there's a decedent/heir -- death/disbursement situation. So I'd assume that the Form 5 transfer of an NFA weapon is similar.

I know some of our lawyer members have spoken on this before. I'll have to try to dig something up. (Har! Har!)

I suspect this issue boils down to state law and how a state defines a "decedent/heir." If you meet the criteria for a "decedent/heir" in your state, you can qualify for a Form 5 transfer.

But I'm in agreement with you. My money is on just about every state requiring death or at least some kind of severe incapacitation in order for someone to be adjudged a "decedent/heir."

Your local laws may vary.

MasterSergeantA
August 22, 2011, 01:37 PM
GoingQuiet...I will happily take your word for it and it makes sense, logically, to follow the thread you offer. I am going to continue to pester the NFA branch about it simply because I find it incredibly stupid that the people charged with administering the rules don't seem to be able to define them. (I also tilt at windmills on my weekends.)

If the OP's young'un has any luck with the process, I would be happy to hear about it.

Sam1911
August 22, 2011, 01:40 PM
I am going to continue to pester the NFA branch about it simply because I find it incredibly stupid that the people charged with administering the rules don't seem to be able to define them. (I also tilt at windmills on my weekends.)

If you catch two agents giving the same answer -- or one agent giving the same answer twice in a row -- I think you get a free pizza or something. It's kind of like when they forget to give you a receipt at Wendy's.


:rolleyes:

TexasRifleman
August 22, 2011, 02:00 PM
I believe you need an FFL in order to get an SB anything.

Nope, you just need to have $200, some spare time, and live in a state that does not otherwise preclude their ownership.

You file a Form 1, which is basically an application to "make" an NFA firearm. You take a factory made rifle and you become the manufacturer, turning it into a new NFA firearm that you made.

No FFL needed and since you are not making them to resell you don't need any kind of manufacturer FFL either.

If you catch two agents giving the same answer -- or one agent giving the same answer twice in a row -- I think you get a free pizza or something.

And I don't believe anyone has ever won one.

Bubbles
August 22, 2011, 02:34 PM
And I don't believe anyone has ever won one.
The odds go up considerably depending on which branch is answering the question. TTB in particular is very consistent, NFA not so much...

Sam1911
August 22, 2011, 05:35 PM
If an ATF person gives you advice on a question and you follow it and it turns out that their advice was incorrect, thus making you face criminal charges, you don't get any protection by claiming that you were told it was legal.


One of the reasons we always reccommend you pose your questions in writing, and get a response, in writing. It may not be the correct answer, but it is the correct answer for you and if they change their minds later, you have a paper trail to show in your own defense.

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