How is this possible?


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Nushif
August 9, 2011, 04:21 PM
I was perusing this forum and found some more pics of groups, embedded in a range report.

One of the groups showed offhand shooting with a group size of less than an inch at ten yards.
Another one showed a bill drill which totaled five rounds in less than one second with a group of only about ... six inches?

This was done using a compact framed 1911 chambered in .45 with a 4.?? inch barrel.

Now, I know there is a lot of very, very good shots out there, but even some of the best instructors I've seen, one of them being an active duty ranger instructor and general superman, another being a very seasoned shooter himself, and one having made it through sniper school with the Army .... none of them could produce that.

Have I really just never seen a truly good shooter?

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gunsablazin
August 9, 2011, 04:34 PM
Yes you have. I can fire 5 rds. a second from a government model at 7 yds. and keep them in the 0 down zone of an IDPA target, and I'm only an expert class CDP shooter. There are a lot of really good shooters at our local IDPA matches, you would be surprised, and amazed to watch them shoot.

forindooruseonly
August 9, 2011, 04:36 PM
A top bullseye shooter will put ten rounds in a four inch group or less at 50 yards. At ten yards it'll be one small ragged hole.

There are phenomenal shooters out there, but generally you'll need to go to a competition to see them in action. Camp Perry is an eye opener for those who have never been.

KodiakBeer
August 9, 2011, 04:37 PM
I think you've never seen a good shooter. The bill drill in particular should be quite easy for even a relative novice to get a six inch group, since it's done at seven yards.

A 1 inch group at ten yards is a bit tougher. I know lots of people who can make a "one ragged hole" group at ten yards, but one inch requires good sights and a good trigger and a good shooter.

I've said this before, but handgun shooting has degenerated with the popularity of the new plastic "bad trigger" pistol genre. Even 25 years ago, pistol shooting was mostly a 25 yard affair with maybe some "close quarter combat shooting" at 15 yards. Now, people are shooting at 5 or 7 yards and with pistols specifically designed to have awful triggers. It's not surprising that shooting that would have been deemed incompetent a few years ago is considered good shooting today.

Sam1911
August 9, 2011, 04:42 PM
Is this all with handguns?

"Less than an inch" at 10 yards, offhand, would be a really bad day for a 3-position rifle shooter.

Less than an inch at 30 feet with a handgun is pretty darned good shooting. Not unheard of, but very good. Ask a bullseye pistol shooter if they're impressed.

As far as a Bill Drill goes, lots of "practical" IDPA and USPSA type shooters practice that frequently. You can go a lot faster than you'd think. Splits (times between shots) down below 0.15-0.20 seconds are common enough, for higher classed shooters. A Bill Drill is all about timing. Not trapping the trigger -- going as fast as you can, but getting a full reset before the next press.

The world contains a lot of really good shooters. The competition world tends to push some of them to extremes of performance that a military or LEO shooter -- or non-competition-oriented instructor -- really has no practical need to pursue.

Nushif
August 9, 2011, 04:47 PM
Yes. All handguns.

So, is this particular example just a top end competition shooter?

Sam1911
August 9, 2011, 04:53 PM
Could be. Or just someone who's practiced a bunch.

(And a Bill Drill is SIX rounds...he choked!) :)

Nushif
August 9, 2011, 04:58 PM
Well. Five splits, so six rounds, I guess? At this point and after this week's "me having anything to do with guns" I am entirely willing to chalk it up to me having miscounted.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
August 9, 2011, 05:20 PM
My wife and I are bullseye shooters. I'm 68, so don't shoot as good as I use
to, but here is a 50 yd pistol target shot by the wife. The "10" ring is about
3 inches dia. This is using our one hand un-supported stance. This was shot
last year.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/prizzel/50xx.jpg


Here is 10 shots at 25 yds. Yes it can be done,

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/prizzel/Mikessmall.jpg

Jon_Snow
August 9, 2011, 07:48 PM
Vera Koo is a member of my gun club, she has won world titles at the Bianchi Cup several times and is an all around amazing shot. Every once in a while I'll see her up at the range on a Tuesday or Saturday and she'll be shooting the action targets at 25 yards. She shoots ~50 rounds at a target, then takes it down and scowls at her 1-1.5" group before stapling a new one up. There are some VERY good shots out there.

41 Mag
August 9, 2011, 08:04 PM
Not sure if this is what your referring to, but these were shot free hand at 25yds, during some load testing with my 454 Casull and some 300gr cast I have been working on.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f285/41nag/Shooting/Cast%20Boolit%20Loading%20and%20Shooting/P1010249.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f285/41nag/Shooting/Cast%20Boolit%20Loading%20and%20Shooting/P1010246.jpg

They aren't as good as I have done, but since this the first time I had shot these loads for group I am happy. Once I get everything worked out they should hopefully be like this at 50yds as well. Then I will be satisfied.

9mmepiphany
August 9, 2011, 08:26 PM
Have I really just never seen a truly good shooter?
Might be.

I just took a new shooter out to work on her speed (IDPA), she was pretty accurate, but took a long time getting her sight back on target between shots. After about 3 hours, I asked her to just press her trigger as her sights appeared on a 3"x5" card. She put 5 shots into just over an inch (she actually called out the shot that opened to group to ~1.5") at a rate of 4-5 shots per second (.25-.20 splits)...granted this was only at 7 yards rather than 10, but she wasn't trying for accuracy (it was a grip and stance drill)

You can shoot a lot faster when you're only shooting into 6" at 7 yards

The Lone Haranguer
August 9, 2011, 08:34 PM
One of the groups showed offhand shooting with a group size of less than an inch at ten yards.
Another one showed a bill drill which totaled five rounds in less than one second with a group of only about ... six inches? (I believe this is called "five in five at five" - LH)

This is entirely possible with training and practice. Few of us achieve this just starting out.

9mmepiphany
August 9, 2011, 08:42 PM
I forgot to answer the question in the tittle...sorry

You shoot accurately by seeing the sights and pressing the trigger while disturbing the sights the least...the easiest way is to allow the aligned sights to cue your already prepped trigger. The trigger press is the greatest determining factory in accurate shooting, everything else supports trigger management.

Shooting accurately at a faster pace in seeing your aligned sights appear on the target faster. This is helped a great deal by having the optimized grip and stance for returning the sights to your original POI after each shot

Cop Bob
August 9, 2011, 08:55 PM
He don't know us berry well...

This is not a real good example, it is in French, it is stage one of a PPC revolver match shot in Quebec Canada.. but it was all I could find in a quick search, that actually shows a target.... This is stage one of PPC match, 12 rounds, 7 yards, 20 seconds, 1 reload..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8EtdmgKW_Q&feature=related

This shooter, is not a very good shooter, while he did score a 120 12-X.. it was loose.. I know many that this would have been one ragged hole... and at 10 yards, bout the same... I personally have these kind of groups with my 2 1/2" Smith M-19...

M2 Carbine
August 9, 2011, 10:05 PM
One of the groups showed offhand shooting with a group size of less than an inch at ten yards.


I'm just a decent shooter, nothing special, and that's right easy, even for my 73 year old eyes and unsteady body.

For instance,
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/KimberUltraCarry10yds7shts1hole.jpg


Young inexperienced kids will also suprise you.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/Natat52yards.jpg

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/SWmod3452yards.jpg


Even with small pocket guns, like this Micro Desert Eagle people can do pretty good at distances like 50 yards, while standing.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/MDEat50yards.jpg

9mmepiphany
August 9, 2011, 10:10 PM
This shooter, is not a very good shooter, while he did score a 120 12-X.. it was loose
Was it raining or is that just poor picture quality?

It looked like he rushed his last shot of his first string thinking ahead to the reload and then never settled his grip for the second string after...I'd say he slide his grip away from the trigger. I know several guys who would be very upset shooting Match 1 like that

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