[sturmruger]

I love reading about all things gun related, but when it comes to reading about knives in gun magazines I draw the line. I am confused as to what the two have to do with each other. I realize that both can be used for self defense. The problem with knives is I don't think they have quite the deterence value as guns do. Plus they do not seem as near as interesting.

This post is not meant to provoke people. I would just like to better understand the reasoning behind all the talk about knives. THANKS

[JShirley]

Firearm= tool.
Knife= tool.
Both are capable of being used for defense, and while the second is more likely to see everyday use, both are more likely to be on one's person than a catapult.

John

[45R]

I don't think they have quite the deterence value as guns do.

IIRC in an altercation at close range 7ft or less the guy with the knife has just as much as a chance as the guy with the gun.

Regardless I respect both types of steel and wouldnt want to be on the business end of a muzzle or blade.

[JShirley]

Something to be considered: I don't believe much in "deterence" or "intimidation factor". If you have justification to produce a weapon, you have justification to use it. I don't believe in brandishing. I will only produce a weapon in the process of using it. In my opinion, doing otherwise is shortsighted and foolish, not to mention potentially illegal.

John

[The Tourist]

Yikes.

I have just quit posting on a well-known knife forum, and take it from a gun guy, debates like this will really bring out the fangs.

To be sure, I own thousands of dollars of truly great knives as valuable tools, and I wouldn't be without them. Even as a young dumb bozo in my 20's I still always carried a Buck 110, and still own two of them.

The one thing you must learn about knife mags/forums and the philosophy itself as seen by knife people is that knives in the 'tactical' realm are a 'calling.' They have their diehard defenders, their staunch detractors and their gurus, who have almost mystical qualities and reverence.

Even hint at the knife-to-a-gunfight philosophy to the wrong audience and you can get banned. Point out that the last great knife deul was in "West Side Story" is like calling rocket fire down on yourself. It doesn't matter that the last great knife fight (probably ever) was the Vadalia Sandbar Fight in 1827 (which actually took place on the Natchez side), you will be branded a heretic.

I've been on numerous firearms ranges, some even catering to full-auto use, and I've always been welcomed.

And I've never felt like I was in a more bitter atmosphere of prickly detractors than when I post in a knife forum. I am through bothering with them. I am glad to be here.

[JShirley]

Well, shucks. Glad you're here.

Some martial arts forums are kinda like that, too. (Silly, really- we're all starting with a basic premise that self-defense is right, proper, and perhaps, your duty.)

The Himalayan Imports forum on BladeForums.com is a happy exception, btw. I post there as Spectre.

In certain circumstances, a knife can serve as well, or better. I'd hate to be that close if I had a choice, though, unless (perhaps) it was my duty to remove someone. Since I've escaped my brief stay in the Army, hopefully I'll never be in that position! :)

John

[The Tourist]

I like gun people better anyway, I never felt I had to watch my back debating the 9mm vs. the .45 ACP catridges.

I received several e-mails today from a guy who got ripped in the same forum thread that I did, and a phone call from another friend who got into a fight with another knife fan over whether or not to detail strip a knife for cleaning.

To me it became more of a hassle than a hobby. The distributors, like places as OneStop, where a middle-aged guy like me spends several thousand dollars yearly can now watch those same dollars go to Terry Tussey.

I've been thrown out of better places.

[Don Gwinn]

It takes a special kind of work environment to be able to slice apples and open envelopes with a .45. ;)

Where I live, it is legal to carry a knife. It is a felony to carry a loaded gun.

[Zundfolge]

I am confused as to what the two have to do with each other.
Same here ... if I wanted to read about knives I'd run out and get me a knife magazine.

Firearm= tool.
Knife= tool.

Yeah and tablesaw = tool ... that doesn't mean I want to read a review of the new Rockwell/Delta 12" tablesaw in the pages of American Handgunner.

[Thumper]

I am confused as to what the two have to do with each other.

Not a thing, except that, by and large, gun guys (and gals) tend to be knife guys (and gals).

Do you think that the Non-Firearms Weapons section should be removed from this forum? If not, why not?

[El Tejon]

Not a dare thing to do with each other. Knives are totems of the gun culture. The cool thing to do. *shrug* big deal, at least it makes the gun nuts more acceptable of martial arts geeks.

"I tried an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. And then I took the ferry to Shelbyville, which in those days was called East Ogdenville. . .":p

[SapperLeader]

I agree that they dont have a lot to do with each other, but I think the complement each other as fine tools we often carry. I think gun magazines can review flashlights, knives and guns, and give us all a little insight into new tools. Plus its great to see a beautiful knife alongside a awesome gun in one of the handgunner centerfolds. I subscribe to american handgunner, guns, American Rifleman, SWAT and blade. I used to subscribe to Tactical Knives but i stopped. I think the gun magazines had better knife articles than Tactical.

[FPrice]

One of the reasons you see knives and to some extent trucks and such in gun magazines may be the assumption (justified or otherwise) that many gun people also like and appreciate knives and trucks (and other things) and sometimes use them together.

Perhaps another reason is to increase the number of potential writing topics and reduce the repetitious articles on why the (choose your favorite handgun/rifle/shotgun) is the best in the world.

Or maybe the editors just don't have anything better to do and hope to promote threads like this on online forums to question why you see articles on things other than guns in gun magazines.

Take your pic. Er, your pick.

[The Tourist]

But where should this end?

Not only do most gun guys like knives, but we also like 4-wheelers, Mel Gibson movies, comfortable blue jeans, dry boots, the NRA and a refreshing ale.

So I guess we should also have truck reviews, movie announcements, fashion shows, etc., etc.

The problem here is that I don't think knife guys are gun guys. To be sure, a gun guy carries a knife, I have for most of my life, but the thing is a tool with a sharp edge.

The thing I learned about the knife culture is that to them there is almost a mystic side. They are heavily into martial arts (try doing a "knife to a gunfight" joke over there) and they treat their experts like gurus. I respect Masaad Ayoob, but I don't think he's the product of divine intervention. You can get branded a heretic very quickly if you question the teachings of James Keating.

After +5 years of collecting knives, I'm leaving the sport. I still post there, in the more 'newsy' columns, but even that is dropping off. I have an extensive collection, and I'm looking for a broker to buy it rather than cherry-picking it off in sales.

Remember, a jackknife is a way of life for some of these guys.

[Mikul]

I find that many people who are intrigued by guns are intrigued by weapons of any kind. When I'm at the gun club, we talk about guns, knives, swords, pumpkin chuckers, tanks, airplanes and all manner of things of deep personal interest to your average 14 year-old boy.

Knives are also a self-suffiency implement. Have you even gone to a BBQ at a gun club. This is the only place where you'll never hear anyone asking for a steak knife. They all brought their own. I had the refrigerator delivery guy take the fridge out of the truck and then have to search around for his razor knife. In the mean time, I pulled my pocket knife out and sliced the appliance free.

As far as self-defense goes: a gun is a ranged weapon. It's an okay close-quarters weapon, but it works best at a distance. If somebody doesn't have a gun, and really wants to hurt you, he'll rush you. Now, put a knife in your weak hand and see how close this guy wants to get.

The gun gives you the advantage, but the knife assures that you have it.

[The Tourist]

Mikul,

I realize that you do not know me well, however, I do like to debate and I do so by staying on point. I have met many of my current friends by debating them in forum. I will never denigrate your opinions, I will just take an opposing view point.

I politely disagree with you view on the gun+knife theory. Despite the constant debates on knife fights, there just aren't any. Most LEO's go their entire career without investigating knife fights. The cycle club I rode with was established in 1968, and the only knife fight that ever happened was by two non-members fighting on our parking lot after the club house was closed. Another ten feet and they would have been on a citizen's front yard.

The NRA magazine prints lots of stories about lives being saved by firearms. I have never read an article where learned gun teachers recommend that the manual of arms should be backed up with knives. In fact, if the situation is life or death the gun is appropriate at any range. Consider the 'speed rock.'

A few months ago my state of Wisconsin was considering a CCW permit system. They never limited any firearm, but they did refused to include automatic knives under this permit.

The 'knife fight' in modern times is more of an urban legend.

(Mikul, I would like to hear your opinion on my issues. I would like you to politely refute my views so I could share take on this.)

[El Tejon]

Tourist, I respectfully disagree as to the frequency. I have defended several knife v. knife cases, including a sword (classic case of self-defense of others).

When I worked for the forces of Eeevil, we had many edged weapon vs. edged weapon homicides, attempted murders and batteries. Depending on the region and the prominent sub-culture(s), one is to encounter knives far more than you may suspect.:uhoh:

[JShirley]

The 'knife fight' in modern times is more of an urban legend.

True. Knifing, on the other hand, is alive and well. Sometimes in self-defense.

John

[The Tourist]

El Tejon,

Would you characterize these events as 'knife attacks' or as 'duels'?

The reason I ask is that most of the threads regarding 'defense knives' and the MA disciplines train for what I surmise is the romance of Hollywood knife fighting. You know, add a few licks of music and it's West Side Story.

I was born and raised in Milwaukee during the 1950's and 1960's where every mother's son had a stiletto. During the early 1970's I hung out in sleazy redneck saloons where on a rootin' tootin' Friday night there were 40 Buck 110's between the bikers and the construction workers.

I never saw a knife fight, nor did I ever hear of any acquaintence ever being in a knife fight. With all of that youthful angst, all of that hardware and copious amounts of liquor, it was going to happen under those circumstances or not at all. And "not at all" is what happened.

I'm now in my 50's, and when I hear young guys looking for combat knives 'just in case,' I tell them that secure door locks will probably be of more use fighting crime than any knife in TK magazine.

I do believe that muggers use knives as weapons of opportunity for theft. However, for some unknown reason, here in the Madison, Wisconsin area, I hear that HAMMERS keep coming up in news reports.