[Topgun]

From what I did to myself with a knife Sunday night, I predict that doctors will BEG for guns to return once they see what KNIVES will do.

Wounds will be more fatal and far harder to deal with.

"Keep guns for safer wounds."

Topgun.....2004

:)

[Gocart]

Reported statistic from The Med in Memphis: assuming they (the victims)are alive when the reach the med, 90% of gunshot vicitims live and 90% of knife victims die.

[Lone_Gunman]

I don't understand those statistics at all.

I do a lot of trauma surgery, and can't remember when we had a stab wound patient die.

[Treylis]

Lone_Gunman:

I'm not entirely sure of it myself, but perhaps because it's more likely that a gunshot victim will be brought to a hospital more rapidly than someone who's (relatively quietly) had a knife stuck into them a few times? Gunshots are loud and tend to bring attention and ambulances far more swiftly, I would wager.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

I don't know about the veracity of that. I saw plenty of gunshot wounds when I worked in the ER of a small town hospital, and more than a few knife/axe wounds.

One attempted suicide by shotgun to the abdomen was the worst I've seen ever...8 hours after arrival and 2 trips to the OR he expired. I don't recall a single knife wound, no matter how gruesome that died (directly) as a result of the wound. I did have one chainsaw accident but he was out, alone, and was almost DRT when they found him in the field and was DOA.

Gee, I'd love to see the data.

Regards,
Rabbit.

BSN/RN/CCRN in a past career life.

[Gocart]

I'll try to find the data - I plead guilty to forwarding info I heard but did not verify.

[BHPshooter]

In several incidents I have heard the fact that a "sharper" wound doesn't like to close as well as a "rougher" wound. It seems logical that a gunshot wound would be more from tearing, producing a "rougher" wound... Perhaps, under optimal conditions, a gunshot would could close a little better than a knife wound? :confused:

At any rate, I think I'd rather get shot than stabbed or slashed. :uhoh:

Wes

[echo3mike]

Most knife / machete wounds are sutured (healing by primary intention), where gunshot wounds are left to close on thier own (secondary intention). "Clean" wound edges, like those caused by a knife (laceration) heal much better than crush injuries (with "untidy" wound edges) or puncture wounds (like gun shots). Problems occur when the pt. doesn't follow up, doesn't perform the necessary wound care or finish their antibiotics. Then there's problems with the bullet migrating into a joint space or capsule. These issues are of course secondary to any damage of the internal organs or boney structures.

And in all honesty, I've sewn up and treated 5 or 10 times the number of knife type wounds vs. gsw's ...and that's in D.C.

Scott

[LawDog]

I think someone has gotten wounds and fights mixed up.

I doubt if a knife wound is more lethal than a gun shot wound, but I'm here to tell you that a knife fight is much more dangerous than a gun fight.

LawDog

[Greybeard]

Let's not forget motorcycles.

I had a doctor in a class last fall who called 'em "donorcycles". He said, "Without them, we'd run out of parts." :(

[TheeBadOne]

That makes more sense.

[Fly Navy]

You know, the thought of getting cut bad by a blade horrifies me more than getting shot. :uhoh:

[BHPshooter]

You know, the thought of getting cut bad by a blade horrifies me more than getting shot.

You and me both. :uhoh:

Wes

[keyhole]

I'd opt for getting neither:D

[Teufelhunden]

You know, the thought of getting cut bad by a blade horrifies me more than getting shot.

One reason bayonets are still very much in service...

-Teuf

[Fly Navy]

God, the bayonet for my Mosin-Nagant 91/30 is soooooooo long. THAT would SUCK.

[larry_minn]

Well I do predict more patients for ER once guns are outlawed. THAT seems a safe trend to predict based on other Countries.

[Dain Bramage]

Note to self: Don't attempt suicide with scattergun to the abdomen. :uhoh:

[wingnutx]

a knife fight is much more dangerous than a gun fight.

Many people don't even realize they were just in a knife fight until it is too late. They never saw the knife, just felt some impact and now the lights are going out.

[Leatherneck]

CHOOSE ONE:

Shoot
Get shot
Get cut or stabbed


TC
TFL Survivor

[CZ-100]

When guns are gone, the ER's are gonna be sorry.
From what I did to myself with a knife Sunday night, I predict that doctors will BEG for guns to return once they see what KNIVES will do.

Wounds will be more fatal and far harder to deal with.

"Keep guns for safer wounds."

Topgun.....2004


SO.... What did you do?

[444]

For what it is worth: Back in the early days of my career as a paramedic, we used to see a lot of stabbings. I haven't seen one for a long time now. I don't know if it was where I was working, or some kind of change in society, but we used to go on at least one stabbing every shift or at least on average; point is, they were as common as any call we ran.
I only remember seeing one guy that was DRT. He was stabbed in the chest.
The last stabbing I went on which was about a year ago, died also. He had seven, sucking chest wounds. Due to a funding problem, the trauma center was shut down and we transported him to a regular ER. It still took him several days to die.
Moral of the story: if this statistic is true, I would be very surprised.
Knives are very vicious intruments. But just like a bullet, placement is everything. A knife through the heart is going to be a big problem. A knife through the liver or lungs is going to be a problem. Most of the knife attacks I have seen were wild with most of the damage done to the limbs with the more serious ones being belly wounds.
I got the impression on that guy that was DRT, that whoever stabbed him kind of knew what he was doing. It was a single stab wound right in the chest. For some reason I remember the victim had an airborne insignia tatooed on his forearm which has nothing to do with nothing except I still remember that even though it was probably at least 15 years ago.

[Stand_Watie]

I think it would depend on the type of blade vs. caliber of bullet regarding whether I'd prefer shooting or stabbing. A thin bladed knife vs. a 12 guage? I'll take the knife thank you. A .22 vs. a meat cleaver? Gimme the .22 any day.

[Fly Navy]

What's DRT?

[zahc]

DRT=dead right there

[spartacus2002]

Nothing is as dangerous as bringing a knife to a gunfight :D

[LostOneToo]

I've got 30 years ER experience in an ER that sees 70,000+ patients a year.

Knife wounds tend to be either slashes or not very deep stab wounds. I have never seen a knife wound die and very few GSW's compared to the number of persons shot. Most of the GSW patients survive thanks to the sorry level of marksmanship in the county. Knife wounds, when they are good ones, tend to be more gruesome in appearance, but are usually only large slashes that open a lot of meat but bleed very little.

The worst lacerations I have seen were on a drunk that fell asleep outside a local fort and spent the night rolling around in concertina wire. He had 15-18 lacerations all over his body; each was anywhere from 8" to 14" long and 2-3" deep. I think he'd rather have been shot!!!!

It's amazing the amount of injury that can be afflicted upon the human body and the relative small amount of true harm/danger to life it can pose.

[Fly Navy]

Unless you don't have proper medical care.

[JohnKSa]

I think most people would rather be shot than stabbed.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the threat of being cut or stabbed is much more concrete in the mind of the victim.

Guns, at the gut level, are magic. You push this little lever over here, there's a flash and a loud noise, and way over there a hole appears. The vast majority of people have not been shot and have absolutely no frame of reference for trying to imagine how it's going to feel.

Knives are very concrete and down to earth. Everybody has been cut or cut themselves at one time or another. You can look at the blade and imagine exactly how it's going to feel as it makes contact. You can picture what the wound will look like. You can see it bleeding with your mind's eye.

[444]

Along the same line, I always would consider the threat of a knife attack more seriously than a threat of shooting.
It just seems to me that people who are standing there with a knife at the ready are very serious about it.
This has no basis in fact, only my opinion.

[Byron Quick]

444,

If you run into a person who is not only serious about using the knife but knows what he's doing with one...you'll never see the knife unless you see it after the first cut or stab...and he'll know where to cut or stab.

My experience in the ER is about the same as the MD's and paramedics.

There is a woeful lack of marksmanship with the handgun and rifle. But the same thing goes for the knife. I've seen plenty of slashes and stabs that would have caused the victim to be DRT if the perpetrator had just known his anatomy.

[LiquidTension]

I don't really have a preference between getting stabbed and getting shot :rolleyes:

I'd definitely rather get into a gunfight than a knife fight. With guns, I practice and the BG probably does not and there is at least a fair chance that I will not get hit. In a knife fight, you WILL get cut unless you're Professor Hancho (9th degree blackbelt w/ numerous real world encounters) or someone equally badass.

I would like to see some numbers on this. I recall having seen some recently that showed stab wounds were only slightly less lethal than gunshot wounds but I couldn't tell you where I saw them...

[444]

"If you run into a person who is not only serious about using the knife but knows what he's doing with one...you'll never see the knife unless you see it after the first cut or stab...and he'll know where to cut or stab."

Yeah and if my aunt was built a little different, she would be my uncle. Like so many subjects on here, the number of people that "know what they are doing" with a knife is very small although I am sure they are out there. I have personally been on the receiving end of two knife attacks already. Both were from grossly intoxicated losers and I not only saw the knife, I was able to escape injury both times (that made one of us).
As I see it, if some knife master wanted me dead for some reason, I am sure he could get close to me somehow, produce a knife I didn't see and kill me with it. Why a knife expert would want to do this to me is anyone's guess.

[goalie]

Well, I was staying out of this, but gee, I guess I am the only one working in an ER (In the critical care float pool now, so part-time in ER, but used to work in a level 1 trauma center) that has see people die from being stabbed. Granted, I would guess that it has been less than those I have seen dead from shooting, but not by much. Most people in car wrecks live, just like people who are shot or stabbed, that doesn't make the ones who die any less dead. According to the FBI stats knives were used in one heckuva lot of homicides, I am kinda suprised you other guys haven't seen any fatal stabbings.

[GD]

In the course of human history, no weapon has ever disappeared. We will always have guns even if they are banned. The ER will always have gunshot wounds come in.

[jason10mm]

Working in the Medical Examiners office, I'm kinda biased in the "patients" I see, but comparing it to my ER time, gunshots are more lethal than knife wounds. I've seen plenty of guys get defensive wounds from knives and live, but seen lots of guys take hits in their arms from bullets only to have the bullet travel through the arm and into the torso, killing them. The stab deaths I've seen tend to be very brutal, with multiple injuries, one of which managed to puncture the heart or a major artery somewhere.

But provided you can get to a trauma center quickly, almost anything is surviable. I've treated guys shot in the neck at point blank range who came out ok because their vessels were sew back together quickly. Interestingly enough, the MASSIVE trauma from car accidents, bushhogs, and lawnmowers is quite survivable so long as nothing hits the head or torso. I've seen guys missing huge chunks of flesh from their airms and legs, far worse than any machete or firearm could do, but they sirvive because the core organs and blood vessels were intact.

Bottom line, as long as your skull and torso don't get violated, you will probably be ok.

[Lone_Gunman]

Fatal stabbings do occur, but the death is usually pre-hospital. Its been my experience that very few stab wound patients die, if they are alive upon arrival to the hospital.

Even if they arrest a few minutes before arrival, stab wound patients can occasionally be resuscitated; it is much less common for that to happen with GSW patients.

[Holly76201]

Rabbit,
:eek: AXE wounds :eek:
Do you know Candy Montgomery? :rolleyes:

Holly

[Gocart]

This data seems to support what the trauma/ER folks have been saying...

http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/guns/archive/knives/msg00000.html

Are stab wounds as dangerous as gun shot wounds?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Are stab wounds as dangerous as gun shot wounds?
From: lambert@silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (Tim Lambert)
Date: 5 Oct 93 09:52:48
Distribution: world
In-reply-to: dswartz@pugsley.osf.org's message of 30 Sep 1993 19:49:29 GMT
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Manitoba
References: <1993Sep27.141424.14352@abo.fi> <FINN.93Sep27101618@rom.ISI.EDU><LAMBERT.93Sep30072904@silver.cs.umanitoba.ca><FINN.93Sep30115229@rom.ISI.EDU> <28fd89$8hp@paperboy.osf.org>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 30 Sep 1993 19:49:29 GMT, dswartz@pugsley.osf.org (Dan Swartzendruber) said:
Point Blank, by Gary Kleck, pg 165:

(He cites a study by Wilson and Sherman, 1961)

"At least one medical study compared very similar sets of wounds ('all were
penetrating wounds of the abdomen'), and found that the mortality rate in
pistol wounds was 16.8%, while the rate was 14.3% for ice pick wounds and 13.3% for butcher knife wounds.

The study is in Annals of Surgery Vol 153 pp 639-649 "Civilian
Penetrating Wounds of the Abdomen" by Wilson and Sherman. It covers stab
(5% mortality) and gun shot wounds (17% mortality) to the abdomen.

The numbers Kleck quotes above come from Table 7 of the article which
contains mortality data by weapon. The implication seems to be that
"knives are almost as deadly as guns". This is extremely misleading.

There are two basic questions to be answered:
1. Exactly what was measured?
2. Is the result statistically significant?

1. The data is from 452 admissions with abdominal wounds to a
hospital in Memphis, Tennessee over the period 1948-1959.

1a. People who died before reaching hospital are NOT counted. In the
discussion following the paper it is stated that "the preponderance of
stab wounds is more apparent than real because a significant
percentage of patients wounded by gunshot die before reaching the
hospital.", so this will make the mortality rate for gunshot wounds
appear to be less.

1b. The wounds include self-inflicted and accidental cases. Someone
attempting suicide with a gun will probably aim at the head, but a
a would-be knife suicide may well attempt disembowelment.

1c. Mortality rates for wounds to other parts of the body may well be
very different. For example, a low velocity weapon like a knife is
far less likely to penetrate a skull than a high velocity projectile.

1d. The distribution of wounds is different for knife assaults and
gun assaults, since victims of knife assaults have more chance to
dodge and block.

1e. Medical treatment has improved since 1948. More recent results
on abdominal wound mortality (Annals of Surgery 179 pp 639) show that
stab wounds are 1% lethal and gun shot wounds are 13% lethal.

1f. The weapon used was known for only some of the cases. The
mortality rate for gunshot wounds where the type of gun was unknown
was 29%, so this made the mortalities for each type of gun appear to
be lower than they really were.

2. The 13.3% death rate for butcher knife wounds is based on a mere 15
cases. This is far too few to give a meaningful mortality rate. The
death rate for rifle wounds was 7.7% (based on only 26 cases). Do
you think rifles are half as lethal as handguns?

I have calculated 95% confidence intervals for each of the weapons in
the paper. Here are the results:

Weapon Cases Deaths % Deaths 95% conf for mortality rate
Shotgun 49 10 20.4 11%-34%
Pistol 101 17 16.8 11%-25%
Ice Pick 14 2 14.3 4%-40%
Butcher Knife 15 2 13.3 4%-38%
Rifle 26 2 7.7 2%-24%
Switch-blade
knife 17 1 5.9 1%-27%
Pocket knife 44 0 0 0%-8%
Unknown GSW 14 4 28.6 12%-55%
Other stab 172 9 5.2 3%-10%

All GSW 190 33 17.4 13%-23%
All stab 262 14 5.3 3%-9%

We see that mortalities for each pointed weapon are NOT significantly
different from mortalities for all pointed weapons, but that
mortalities for stabs ARE significantly less than mortalities from gun
shots.

95% confidence intervals for mortalities calculated from (Annals of
Surgery 179 pp 639) are 1%-2% for abdominal stab wounds, and 11%-15%
for abdominal gun shot wounds.

Tim





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[Ryder]

To me guns and knives are capable of performing the same tasks. A knife wound is a two dimensional gunshot wound (unless it's twisted). I've taken the heads off live deer using both a single shot from a rifle or the swipe of a bowie knife. Instant results indestiguishable.

Maybe we should be qualifying the knives discussed here. We talk about fear of being shot in relation to specific calibers. Why not knives? Mouse knives anyone? Due to existing legal limitations on knife length I'd imagine most of these ER cases were caused by smallish pocket knives.

I can honestly say a knife produces exponentially more fear in me. Uhmmm, perhaps I should use the term terror. A gun pointed at my face has caused me to worry for me safety but it's not even close to the overwhelming doom I've experienced from having a butcher knife poised to strike my heart.

Guess I am just plain irrational?

[Lone_Gunman]

Yea, I would say that is fairly irrational.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

"Rabbit,
AXE wounds
Do you know Candy Montgomery? "

Holly

Wow...that's a name I haven't heard in awhile. I drive past the Como Motel several times a week and I always think about her in a weird sort of way every time I do.

Candy Montgomery was an infamous axe murderess around these parts back in he 80's for those who don't live in the neighborhood. Killed a neighbors wife with an axe. Candy was having a little tryst on a regular basis with the husband at said motel.

Yeah, I've seen folks who have had interactions with axes and chainsaws. Chainsaws are worse as a rule. Axes don't need a kill switch. I've seen a near decapitation from a chainsaw kickback.

A long time ago I saw the results of a machete attack. Not pretty, but it wasn't fatal in that case.

Regards,
Rabbit.

[Holly76201]

Rabbit,
Let's not forget to tell the good THR readers that Candy was AQUITTED of all murder charges. And that her attorney, while he was a High-powered and politically well connected attorney [his law partner at the time was Jim Mattox, who went on to become the Attorney General of Texas] , had NEVER tried a criminal case !!!!!

Holly

[R127]

I guess I never realized it was a controversial subject till I started posting here, I imagine because it's expensive enough to cost as much as another gun in the collection, but a handy way to deal with the threat of a knife or gun, after other precautions are also taken, is to buy and wear armor. How does the adage go.... you wouldn't jump without a parachute?