4" PPC revolver


PDA






dashootist
August 14, 2011, 09:08 PM
THere's a PPC revolver on gunbroker. It has a 4" light weight barrel. I've only seen only long and heavy barrels on PPC revolver. Is this a better gun for a person of short stature and weak hand strength, than a long and heavy barrel revolver?

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/245768000/245768002/pix158536823.jpg

If you enjoyed reading about "4" PPC revolver" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
VA27
August 14, 2011, 11:02 PM
That's just a standard heavy barrel model 10 with a Bo Mar rib added. The gun without the rib would weigh 36oz. I don't know what the rib would add to that, maybe 4oz?

At 40oz it would weigh the same as a 4" L-frame, not what I'd call a lightweight. It was likely someone's 'entry level' gun, before they upgraded to a purpose-built PPC gun.

SharpsDressedMan
August 15, 2011, 07:52 AM
When allowed to use my own revolver on a department that I worked for that required .38 Special ammo, I had a 4.5" PPC S&W Pre-Model 10 M&P done up with a slabsided Douglas barrel, and rib by Tom Volquartsen. WOW! What a gun! It had the long, smooth, older style trigger action, and was as accurate as it could be. Regreattably, when we went to autos, I sold it. It would have made a great range gun and small game getter. It carried in a regular 4" holster. It was noticably lighter than the full 6" bullbarrel guns.

Old Fuff
August 15, 2011, 10:24 AM
I believe the reason for the 4" barrel is that some so-called "service pistol matches" required it. Relatively few people shot it, so this sort of a revolver is seldom seen. The purpose of the heavy rib is to add weight to help control recoil (which is light anyway) for faster recovery from recoil. As a rule, they are tack drivers, offering exceptional accuracy, but it may have been converted to double-action only, which you might, or might not see as a plus.

If for any reason you find a heavy/longer barreled gun to be a bit too much, this could make a good choice.

dashootist
August 16, 2011, 12:47 AM
How much should a 4" or a 6" PPC revolver cost these days?

I occasionally see one or two in a gunshop in Houston. And they're almost asking 600-700 for one.

MrBorland
August 16, 2011, 07:12 AM
How much should a 4" or a 6" PPC revolver cost these days?

I occasionally see one or two in a gunshop in Houston. And they're almost asking 600-700 for one.

It's a buyer's market. For what they are, bona fide PPC revolvers can be* a relative bargain, even at $600 - $700. Even so, my preference would be for one clearly built by a known and respected PPC 'smith.

*but aren't automatically. It's relatively easy for someone to build something that certainly looks like a PPC gun, but the Devil's in the details; a rib or aftermarket barrel is no guarantee it'll actually perform like a PPC gun.

As for the gun in the pic, it could be a fantastic gun, or it could just be a Model 10 with a BoMar rib. Tough to say from the pic. :confused:

BTW, why a PPC gun for "a person of short stature and weak hand strength"? Seems a PPC revolver, even a 4", will always be relatively heavy. If you're looking accuracy and/or a light action in a revolver, a standard 4" k-frame with adjustable sights might be easier to shoot. With the action tuned by a good revolver 'smith (and front red ramp replaced with a target sight), it'll be a very nice shooter.

9mmepiphany
August 16, 2011, 01:04 PM
I'll have to dig out my Bill Davis PPC gun (6" round barrel, built on a M14) and snap a picture. I haven't shot it in a while and it should really go to someone who would enjoy it...plus I could use the money to fund a Randy Lee project

MrBorland
August 16, 2011, 01:36 PM
I'll have to dig out my Bill Davis PPC gun (6" round barrel, built on a M14) and snap a picture. I haven't shot it in a while and it should really go to someone who would enjoy it

One day I will have a good PPC revolver, so keep me in mind when the time comes, eh? :D

...plus I could use the money to fund a Randy Lee project

Well, I've got one of those planned, too. And this (and that there's no PPC in my area) is why a PPC revolver always seems to get bumped down the priority list. A pic could easily get it higher on that list, though. ;)

9mmepiphany
August 16, 2011, 02:23 PM
OK, I'm motivated, I guess I'll take it out and snap a picture of it just for you...I guess that means I'd have to clean it too.

The only real wear on it is at the muzzle...from the Roger's holster

dashootist
August 16, 2011, 06:47 PM
BTW, why a PPC gun for "a person of short stature and weak hand strength"?

Because there's a local PPC match and I want a real PPC gun. But when I try the ones with 6" heavy barrel, they just seem too heavy for me. I have small hand, and my arm strength isn't that great.

On the other hand, PPC seems to be dying. I am worry that I spend a lot of money on a PPC gun and the local match goes away. I don't know of any PPC or Bullseye match within driving distance here. These kind of matches are not popular at all. Around here, people prefer to shoot up close and fast and furious.

9mmepiphany
August 16, 2011, 08:28 PM
OK here they are, rather hurried (you can tell by the lint still on the gun)

This was their Stage IV package with a round bull barrel (as opposed to the slab sided one) and the light underlug...the Stage V had the heavy underlug (full height and extending to the end of the barrel)
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/DavisPPCgun030.jpg

Davis Custom markings and you can just see the crane tensioning (accu-loc I think he called it) plunger which replaces the ejector rod pin (wear/rubbing, on the barrel)
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/DavisPPCgun028.jpg

Aristocrat rib
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/DavisPPCgun031.jpg
Range changing slide (you can just see the wear on at the muzzle)
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/DavisPPCgun029.jpg
Screws to adjust for different ranges
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/DavisPPCgun037.jpg

Speedloader relief cut cylinder release and Case Hardened hammer; Trigger stop drilled through the polished and contoured face of the trigger
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/DavisPPCgun033.jpg

MrBorland
August 16, 2011, 09:57 PM
9mm - that's a fine looking gun, indeed. Thanks for sharing. I bet it's a tack driver. Lots of doohickies - did it come with an owner's manual, lol? Again, if/when you do decide to let it go to a good home, feel free to PM me.

On the other hand, PPC seems to be dying. I am worry that I spend a lot of money on a PPC gun and the local match goes away. I don't know of any PPC or Bullseye match within driving distance here. These kind of matches are not popular at all. Around here, people prefer to shoot up close and fast and furious.

It'd still make a terrific range gun, no? And it'd be legal in ICORE Limited class, in the event you have any ICORE matches around (ICORE, btw, may be a run-and-gun game, but the accuracy requirement is high).

dashootist
August 16, 2011, 10:40 PM
Is this a "bona fide" PPC gun?

$695
http://collectorsfirearms.com/images/935bc9c70be78d4444ce2392d2ddf725.jpg

http://collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=35415

9mmepiphany
August 16, 2011, 11:50 PM
I bet it's a tack driver. Lots of doohickies - did it come with an owner's manual, lol?
It is indeed, nothing got out of the shop that wouldn't hold one ragged hole at 25 yards and X-ring at 50...everything that opened a group was all me, a well smithed gun can be very humbling.

Doohickies -
1. The cylinder assembly was blueprinted and will spin forever...there is a very consistent drag line between locking notches
2. The chambers were chamfered for wadcutters
3. The plunger (on the underlug)/pin (on the crane) insure alignment with the barrel
4. I can't remember if it was a Apex or Shilen barrel...it was up to what the shop could get at the time
5. Long throat to ease bullet distortion
6. The trigger stop is tipped with rubber to contact the frame just at the point of letoff (we all staged back then)
7. The cylinder release is relieved for speedloader, either Safariland or Dade...but the bevel is left white
8. The front sight slider raises, or lowers, the front sight as you increase distance from the target. You establish your one hole, holding dead on, at 7 yards, shoot for that hole at 25 yards (sliding the button to 25) again holding dead on...but when you moved back to 50 yards (sliding the button top 50) you used a neck/head hold (using the head on top of the front blade) and having the gun zeroed to drop rounds into the X-ring
9. Each distance setting for the front blade is zeroed via it's own Allen screw behind the blade

The funny thing was that the Stage V had a large slab of weight under the barrel to really dampen muzzle flip. There was so much surface area that it was affected by cross winds. The answer to this was a Windmaster, where the barrel had the same height, but extended sideways (in an oval shape) to maintain weight...that would be a real find

MrBorland
August 17, 2011, 08:37 AM
Is this a "bona fide" PPC gun?

Well, 9mm is the guy who'd know, but yes, Clark Custom makes purpose-built PPC revolvers.

The ad claims, though, that it's a "great gun by one of the all time master pistol smiths". That would be Jim Clark Sr, who died in 2000. The business is run by Jim Clark Jr, and AFAIK, sometime before that (mid-80s? 90s?) actual Clark Sr guns started to become rarer. I hear mixed reviews of post-Sr Clark guns. From the pic, I can't tell if it's a Sr gun or not. I thought Sr would scrawl his name on the barrel, but I may be thinking of another 'smith. 9mm would know.

When PPC was more popular, the top names were, AFAIK, Bill Davis, Ron Power, and Frank Glenn. Jerry Keefer, and Bob Jackson were also known to make exceptionally good guns. And Randy Lee currently does some amazing things with revolvers.

The funny thing was that the Stage V had a large slab of weight under the barrel to really dampen muzzle flip.

As someone who's never shot it, something I've never understood about PPC was the need to dampen muzzle flip. I understood the time allotment to be fairly reasonable, no? And to hit the x-ring at 25 & 50 yards, one isn't going to be doing 0.2 second splits - or are they?:eek:

9mmepiphany
August 17, 2011, 02:24 PM
Well, 9mm is the guy who'd know, but yes, Clark Custom makes purpose-built PPC revolvers.

The ad claims, though, that it's a "great gun by one of the all time master pistol smiths". That would be Jim Clark Sr, who died in 2000. The business is run by Jim Clark Jr, and AFAIK, sometime before that (mid-80s? 90s?) actual Clark Sr guns started to become rarer. I hear mixed reviews of post-Sr Clark guns. From the pic, I can't tell if it's a Sr gun or not. I thought Sr would scrawl his name on the barrel, but I may be thinking of another 'smith. 9mm would know.
Clark Sr. was one of the first to screw a bull barrel on a S&W K-frame for PPC competition. At the time it was the Colt Python or a S&W M14 game.

That looks like a very early Clark PPC gun as his later guns had an underlug for stability and to shroud the ejector rod. Clark never got into locking/stabalizing the forward end of the cylinder assembly and always used a simple BoMar sighting rib...the shooters would have to count clicks as the shooting distance changed.

As MrBorland posted, the great masters of the PPC gun were Ron Power (the unquestioned master), Frank Glenn and Bill Davis. Several other very good pistol smiths produced PPC guns, but these are the one's I've handled. The heyday of the PPC gun was when they ruled the Bianchi Cup.

Sidebar: Looking at those pictures and the description of "Very Good plus", I may have to re-evaluate the condition of mine. I'd be embarrassed to ask that price for a gun with that much wear on it


As someone who's never shot it, something I've never understood about PPC was the need to dampen muzzle flip. I understood the time allotment to be fairly reasonable, no? And to hit the x-ring at 25 & 50 yards, one isn't going to be doing 0.2 second splits - or are they?:eek:
I never understood it until I first shot mine...which is a bit heavier than optimal for Action Shooting (think Bianchi Mover)...compared to my Python or M19....it just hangs better at the end of your arm when shooting slowly. Think of the Olympic Rapid Fire pistols chambered in .22 Short with muzzle breaks.

PPC is an accuracy game...regardless of it's name...and the point was to shoot so well that the target was scored by counting the rounds that weren't in the big hole in the middle. I started shooting at a pace where I was making good hits and was surprised when I ejected and holstered while other shooters still had 3-4 rounds to crank off. The ideal timing was to break the final shot just as the buzzer sounded or the target turned.

Granted this was in the days before we understood that recoil management for followup shots wasn't a function of being able to hold a gun down during recoil

wad
August 17, 2011, 06:38 PM
Would it be correct to guess that Dan Wesson came a little too late with his PPC and Action Cup models?

http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae60/wdelack/ACPair1.jpg

9mmepiphany
August 17, 2011, 08:00 PM
The Dan Wesson efforts were directed at the Action Pistol game and had great potential, with their solid front lockup, adjustable barrel gap and tensioned barrel. The even had quick change front sight blades which you could pre-size for changing distances.

There were two things that worked against them.

1. Bianchi Cup guns had gone to elaborate shrouds for the Barricade event and moveable Red Dot mounts for the Mover (it flipped from side to side to adjust for lead)...also smiths had come up with workable shrouds that encircled the 1911's slide

2. Dan Wesson actions were never the favorite for smiths to tune and the guns came out of the box with pretty bad triggers

dashootist
August 20, 2011, 08:51 PM
Well, I checked out in person that Clark gun. Cylinder is tight, and trigger is buttery smooth. Gun look dirty, like previous owner didn't bother to clean it very often. I can probably talk 'em down $100 at most. Should I get it for $600?

wad
August 21, 2011, 05:35 PM
You have to be a real persuasive talker to get Collectors to lower their price that much. Typically they wont drop the price of a used gun more than 10 percent.

Sidebar: Looking at those pictures and the description of "Very Good plus", I may have to re-evaluate the condition of mine. I'd be embarrassed to ask that price for a gun with that much wear on it


Collectors tends to over price their firearms.

-WD

SharpsDressedMan
August 21, 2011, 06:42 PM
I never understood why sellers don't clean a gun before they try to sell it. I would think it would garner more interest, and more money.

dashootist
August 21, 2011, 09:44 PM
I know. But they're the only gun shop around here with stuff that I'm interested in.

Collectors tends to over price their firearms.
-WD

If you enjoyed reading about "4" PPC revolver" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!