Shorty/Carbine FALs to fit intermediate and CQB rifle roles?


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Redlg155
January 22, 2004, 07:22 PM
Well folks..I finally went ahead and ordered a DSA Carbine model STG58A FAL. I believe it has just over a 16" barrel and utilizes the standard long gas system of the larger STG58A rifle.

Anyone have one of these, or a similar 16" shorty? I'm curious as to how much more blast and recoil they have. I'm going to try to deck it out as more of an intermediate range carbine with some serious punch to it.

But back to the original title, I'm looking to outfit it with something like an ARMS type railed forarm as an option to the M16 series carbines. Looking at the DSA catalog they even have a 13" barreled FAL to fit CQB roles. (NOTE***This is not the rifle I ordered, althout I wish it was!!)
http://www.dsarms.com/images/sa58osw.gif


I understand that I can't have the OSW rifle pictured above, but I can have one with 3 more inches of barrel. I could care less about the folding stock.

So...can the Carbine FAL fill the role of the M16 series or is it overkill? I imagine shooting 30 rounds of full power .308 into a dark room would be something like shooting 30 mini flash bangs. :D

Would speed in engaging multiple targets be significantly reduced? How about your fellow squad members. Standing next to a short AR isn't too bad when it is touched off. Would the recoil be enough to make your squad members cringe?


Good Shooting
Red

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DMK
January 22, 2004, 08:27 PM
I guess shootability would depend on how effective that muzzle brake is and how heavy it is. I have a 17" barrel on my FAL and with the muzzle brake it is *loud*! However, the recoil is lighter than my Garand (also .308) or my full size M39 Mosin Nagants.

DSA seems to have their act together, so I'd suspect that the worst part about standing behind or next to that little nightmare above would be noise and impressive muzzle flash. (actually come to think of it, it seems to me that it needs a flash suppressor more than a brake).

Honestly, I don't know what LE mission that thing is designed for. Perhaps it's for going up against vehicle mounted bad guys or soft armored targets. I would be worried about somebody using it in an urban jungle, inner city drug lab raid.

SodaPop
January 22, 2004, 08:55 PM
Recoil is a little more than a 7.62x39 AK but its still controllable.

I personally think its the best carbine out there.

Nightcrawler
January 22, 2004, 09:01 PM
They're great for urban combat. The increased penetration is handy for getting badguys hiding behind walls, cars, etc. ESPECIALLY when using AP ammunition.

However, for police work, that increased penetration is a significant liability.

Redlg155
January 22, 2004, 09:19 PM
True...but for police work they could use frangible ammunition for decreased penetration and then have a spare mag topped off with some serious "pentrators".

The DSA Integrated Rail System is something like $240.00. That's not bad compared to the ARMS products. Still, I want something a little less expensive.

I shot a Email over to Kurts Kustoms about installing rails on a FAL free float tube. DSA has the tube for $80.00. Rails are relatively inexpensive. Sort of a poor mand RIS. Hopefully the tube will be thick enough in diameter to support the rails and any attatchments. Most likely only a pistol grip and light.

Anyone have a free float tube? If so, how thick are the walls of the tube?

Good Shooting
Red

Mulliga
January 22, 2004, 09:22 PM
How much did you get it for? I'm definitely curious about a "tactical FAL" - I've heard the typical one weighs like 10 pounds.

R127
January 22, 2004, 09:24 PM
I never understood why people would take a weapon designed to be light, compact and handy, encrust it with every superfluous doo-dad, increase the weight and encumberance beyond that of a fullsize rifle, and then call it a tactical CQB carbine. I heard someone once liken them to a barbie doll for guys, I tend to agree. A scope makes sense for long range precision shooting, I'll give you that one, but that's not what these are built for. A flashlight almost makes sense, but why would I want to give my enemies a big bright spot right in front of my head or COM to shoot at? Well, as long as I'm on my firey tirade, I may as well say that I doubt ballistics out of a 16" barrel will be much better than a 7.62x39.

But! Don't take that as discouragement. I think the idea of a short, handy FAL is an excellent one. I wouldn't call it a CQB carbine, but I'm working on a bush rifle, or swamp rifle, rather, with an 18" barrel and OAL of 36" inches. I will achieve this by removing the recoil pad and replacing it with a thin metal buttplate and shortening the recoil spring tube by one inch.

Personally I don't think I'd like a 16" barrel on a .308, but you have a solid gun and good reciever there. If you were so inclined, assuming you have at least a little money to put into this thing, you can install a para bolt on your reciever, negating the need for a recoil spring tube. This will allow you to shorten the stock to anything you want, a length of pull of 10.5", such as found on an AR, would allow a barrel 20" or more and still come in at 36" OAL. Then you have a compact rifle getting maximum benefit from its powerful round. Doo-dads and thingamajees hanging off your carbine are, in my eyes, of dubious value. Barrel inches are real effect down range. Mags and a good load carrying system, as well.

SodaPop
January 22, 2004, 10:00 PM
I may as well say that I doubt ballistics out of a 16" barrel will be much better than a 7.62x39


I use to think the same thing until I read a few threads over at FalFiles. Some of those guys ran their Carbines threw chronos and said they still clocked in around 2635fps with Portuguese 147gr. That's a 147gr over 2600fps vs a 123gr at 2400fps.

Better than an AK.


Several of them said they were still punching paper at 400yds with ease.

Here's one of the threads :http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40451

Marcus
January 22, 2004, 10:26 PM
Anyone else think a shorty FAL would be even cooler in .243Win.? Less recoil,better controlability and still plenty of punch.... :) Marcus

SodaPop
January 22, 2004, 10:37 PM
ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Redlg155
January 22, 2004, 11:45 PM
How much did you get it for?

The model below is the one I am getting. $949.00 from Atlantic Firearms.
http://www.dsarms.com/images/AusFALC.gif


I guess they charge a bit more for the barrel work since the standard model is $899.00.

By the time I finish with her she should be looking like the ASW FAL sans the skeleton collapsible stock. The good news is that I got a reply from the FAL files forum and a user there states that the FAL free float tubes are comparable to the thickness of the AR float tubes, leaving me plenty of "meat" to mount my rails.

As for a .243 FAL, I'd love one as well. The only problem is that ammo is expensive when compared to surplus .308. Now one idea would be to shoot "accelerator" rounds through it. http://www.eabco.com/reload02.html has kits where you can load your own accelerator cartridges ( I don't see factory cartridges for .308, only 30/30 and 30-06). Anyway, you are looking at a possible 4000 plus fps with a .22 caliber bullet.

Can we say "OUCH!".

Good Shooting
Red

R127
January 23, 2004, 01:00 AM
20-25fps per inch is much better than I hoped for. My 18" won't be too far off from where I'd like to be.

I hadn't considered sabots. That should be wicked!

JShirley
January 23, 2004, 12:06 PM
vs a 123gr at 2400fps

That would be a 20" barrel, often at a little less than 2400.

Redleg, this is a great system, and honestly, I think you'll like a 16" bl a lot more than you would have liked a 13". Now, if we honest citizens could just get inexpensive sound suppressors...

John
Still looking for a US-made FAL stock with short LOP!

Atticus
January 23, 2004, 01:44 PM
One of the many things I like about the FAL, is that the weight is nicely centered, providing good balance....and even more so for the short barreled ones. It is heavier than a plain AR, and I wouldn't want to carry it all day... but I never expect to do that. And at arms length, you could beat the hell out of someone with it.

SodaPop
January 23, 2004, 06:52 PM
That would be a 20" barrel, often at a little less than 2400.


I agree.

I guess my reloads were up in that range and a little hotter than surplus stuff.


One of the many things I like about the FAL, is that the weight is nicely centered, providing good balance....and even more so for the short barreled ones.

I slapped one of those tactical mag holders on the stock, and keep a loaded 20rd on there when i'm shooting. It helps balance out my STG58.

I personally think the standard 21in FAL is a bit top heavy, but 16-18inch barrels have excellent balance.

curt
January 23, 2004, 09:36 PM
so why do you want the rails?

Redlg155
January 24, 2004, 02:20 AM
so why do you want the rails?

Stuff of course. Every man has to have stuff on his rifle. Life revolves around stuff. Stuff is cool! :D

If she proves to be a good handling rifle, then a high intensity light as well as a pistol grip will be mounted. The rails along with the plastic covers will also provide insulation during prolonged shooting sessions. I've had FAL grips get rather hot during shooting sessions.

The use of frangible ammunition would also allow it to be used as a home defense weapon or backup when a bit more serious "artillery" is needed.

Good Shooting
Red

J-Man
January 24, 2004, 03:34 AM
The suckers are nice!
My SA58 Medium Contour Tactical handles real well. I have the DSA rail foregrip installed (beefy unit) with an Aimpoint Comp M2 mounted on top scout-style. I also use the Falcon ERGO grip and can now reach my safety with no problems. Total weight of package (including the rail, sight, ring, and LOADED mag) is 10.2 pounds. Not bad if you ask me....

Oh, flash is not all that bad with Aussie surplus.

curt
January 24, 2004, 09:31 AM
yeah i've considered getting rails for my lightweight 18" carbine but i'm worried about the weight up front. Light's a given and maybe a VFG but then with the weight of the rail i'm worried about swinging too much weight around.

That's why i ended up going with a lightweight barrel and a KAC RAS II on the front of my AR, and i had less barrel weight to contend with.

I'm thinking about bolting a couple of rails to a standard handguard and seeing how i like that. BTW i wouldn't think you'd gain much in the way of insulation by going to a metal handguard.

Redlg155
January 24, 2004, 09:42 AM
BTW i wouldn't think you'd gain much in the way of insulation by going to a metal handguard.

In a plain metal handguard, no. In fact it would be a lot hotter than a synthetic handguard. The same with a metal free float tube on an a AR15. Those boogers get HOT! after brolonged firing, but my Armalite fiberglass FF tube stays relatively cool.

However with the rails you only make contat with the plastic rail covers. I have a custom built (KKF) aluminum free floated railed handguard for an AR that works very well. The metal surface as well as the exposed rails allow the weapon to cool faster, and I dump some serious rounds downrange (9mm).

Good Shooting
Red

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