[Larry Ashcraft]

My wife gave me a nice Winchester Carbine for Christmas, all matching (even the mags), 1944 mfg.

I've only fired it about 50 times (Winchester white box) and accuracy seems fine. I've had two "smokestack" type malfunctions.

The fired cases come out "sooty", not only around the case mouth, but also around the case head. Is this normal, or is the Win. ammo loaded too light? I plan on reloading my own as soon as I get the dies from Dillon.

[Pappy John]

I've shot somewhere around a thousand rounds through a Postal Meter carbine in the past few years and all my spent brass looked pretty much like what you're describing. Its still going strong.

Mostly American Eagle ammo, some PMC.

[BigG]

Just a guess but I think you are correct in thinking that the loads are too light.

[dfariswheel]

Sooty cases are common with some carbine ammo, in some carbines.
The soot is very common on ammo reloaded with cast bullets. This is due to the bullet lube.

Winchester carbine ammo is not loaded too light.

[telewinz]

"Sooty" cases can also be an indication that the case is being extracted too soon while the pressure is still too high. Its not that uncommon and could be due to the gas port (hole) being too large (erosion?). This condition is more common in blowback pistols shooting "hot' loads or the H&K and CETME rifles that have a fluted chamber. Could also be caused by firing low-pressure loads that allow the gases(the "soot") to blow back pass the case before the pressure is high enough to expand the case and seal the chamber. It can be a complicated problem to resolve if you don't have the proper gauges (who does?) to measure the tolerances.

[DamnedDirtyApe]

These were fired from my 1943 Winchester last week. They're reloads - 15 grains Win296 with a magnum primer. If I use AA #9 they come out REALLY filthy, like you're describing.

Powder has a lot to do with it. The 296 I use is *supposed* to be the mil-spec. Reloading for these carbines is very easy, if you're inclined in that direction.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL14/877946/1594531/19215787.jpg

[BigG]

This is just a guess, but because the case is made of very hard brass like rifle ammo (it is rifle ammo!) it prolly needs a healthy charge of quick burning powder to expand the case properly to obturate (block gas blow back). If loaded with a slower powder or lighter charge, case won't expand enough, I would guess.

[dude]

...............all my spent brass from the Carbines looks like that


shoot & enjoy!

[Larry Ashcraft]

All great responses! Thanks guys, and telewinz, you worried me enough that I will take the carbine to my old friend and gunsmith. His name is Jack Alltheothersmithsgettodocoolstuff likebuildriflesallieverdoisfixbrokenjunk. :D He MAY have the right gauges.

As for reloading, I have about 6 lbs of 4227, 1200 bullets and 500 cases. Soon as I get the dies I'll start with that.

[DamnedDirtyApe]

I have about 6 lbs of 4227

A full charge with that powder is compressed and I mean COMPRESSED.

I had to crimp the rounds I loaded with 4227 because the tension of the squashed powder was pushing the bullet part way out of the case.

If you're a Hodgdon loyalist, their H110 is exactly the same powder as Win296, manufactured by Olin.

[Larry Ashcraft]

DDA, Thanks, noted. I'll have to find another use for the 4227. I do have H110 and I also like Win. powders.

The 4227 was left over after our silhouette club died out (I used it in 7mm International).

[telewinz]

Why not spend $20 and buy a box of Factory made ammo. Odds are I bet the "sooty" will disappear, if the factory ammo has the same problem as your reloads then I would certainly take the carbine to your gunsmith. You can use a faster burning powder like Unique, I've used it for years with no poblem. You are using magnum primers with the 296 ball powder aren't you? Check your reloading book to be sure magnum primers required, if it does and you aren't using them that could account for the low pressure. Most "ball" powers I've used suggest magnum primers because ball powders are harder to ignite. I have a SVT40 that I used standard primers with ball powder. A third of the rounds would not ignite the powder, it just spilled into the action. :eek:

[Larry Ashcraft]

Telewinz, the rounds I shot were Winchester USA (white box). I have 850 rounds of 1952 Lake City. I may sacrifice a box of those to see what happens before I start reloading.