7.62x25 and 7.63 mauser


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M91/30
August 18, 2011, 02:35 AM
So here's a quick question. Is it possible and safe to shoot Privi 7.63 mauser out of a 7.62x25 CZ-52? If the answer is yes how would the 7.63 mauser perform? Im looking for a low power low recoil ammo. Would this fit the bill safely? For some reason I have a feeling this isn't going to be a straight forward answer... Google results were... interesting.

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isc
August 18, 2011, 02:42 AM
yes it's safe, it would function fine but not have as good of terminal ballistics

Shadow 7D
August 18, 2011, 05:00 AM
In a way it's like .38 and 357, except the .357 MAG (7.62 tok) WILL fit in and DESTROY a Mauser gun. The Tok was designed off of the Mauser, and is close enough to chamber.

Jim K
August 18, 2011, 03:01 PM
That whole area is confusing. I read one "expert" who declares positively that Czech 7.62x25 runs 42k cup and will blow up Tokarevs and Mausers designed for 30k. Then I read another "expert" who says Russian Tokarev ammo will blow up Czech Vz52's. Then yet another guru will say they are interchangeable and that the only problems came from a lot of Czech proof ammunition that was accidentally placed on the market. (42k would be hot even for a proof load - I think the figure is an error or simply an invention.) Then I see Tokarevs converted by the Germans to 9mm P by nothing more than a new barrel that function fine, so how could they have been designed for much more than the standard 9mm P pressure?

To my own views, first, my recommendations are to NOT use any factory ammunition in a Mauser C96 except U.S. ammunition marked ".30 Mauser." And NEVER use any .30 Mauser or 7.62x25 ammuntion in a Borchardt. If you must shoot a Borchardt, use only the lightest loads that will function the gun. They are not strong guns.

As to the Tokarev vs. Vz52, some things don't "compute". The Russians pretty well controlled Eastbloc arms and ammunition, in the obvious interest of commonality in wartime. When the Vz52 was designed, Bloc countries and the Russians themselves were still using the Tokarev. It doesn't make sense that they would allow their Czech allies to manufacture ammunition that would blow up their own pistols.

As to the idea that Russian and Czech ammo is made for submachineguns, I can find nothing that indicates there was special Russian ammo for submachineguns, and Russian sub guns run fine with Russian pistol ammo and even with U.S. .30 Mauser ammo. Again, it would not seem smart to issue ammunition that would fit in pistols but blow them up. (Stories about special German 9mm SMG ammo are stories; no WWII German 9mm will "blow up" Lugers or P.38s.)

I have done some limited testing with Czech, Russian and Chinese 7.62x25 ammunition in pistols from those countries and didn't blow up anything, but that does not mean such a thing did not or could not happen. Knowing the way stories spread and are repeated as gospel by people who simply repeat what they read, I am highly skeptical of all those tales or at least inclined to consider the "proof loads" story.

Jim

Shadow 7D
August 18, 2011, 04:27 PM
There is/was no special ammo, it's mostly internet BS and REALLY BAD quality control, I'm sure that they made hot ammo when they switched powder batches and didn't bother to calibrate for it. But they the SAME standards, there is/should be some pretty weak batches.

The easy answer is that the Mauser was not designed to run anything near the pressures Tok produces.

Carl N. Brown
August 20, 2011, 09:37 PM
The Czechs were forced, as part of the Warsaw Pact, to adopted the 7.62x25mm cartridge used by the Russians.

The Russian 7.62x25mm loading from the PPSh submachinegun was listed as 1640 fps from a 10.6 inch barrel and from the Tokarev pistol as 1378 fps. (With the Russians, their pistol came first and their SMG was adapted to the pistol round.)

In 1951 the Czechs adapted their Model 24 and Model 26 submachineguns (SMG) from 9mm to 7.62x25mm. However, they gave their M48 7.62x25mm cartridge a loading that gave them 1800 fps from an 11.2 inch SMG barrel. Then they adopted the CZ vz 52 (CZ52) in 1952 a year later to use the same ammo as their SMGs. The CZ52 pistol was listed as having a 1600 fps muzzle velocity with the Czech M48 load. (With the Czechs, their SMG came first and their pistol was adapted to the SMG round.)

(In WWII the Italians used three 9mm loadings for pistols and SMGs. All three cartridges were based on the 9x19mm Parabellum: a light 9mm Glisenti, a standard 9mm Parabellum pistol load, and a heavy M38 9mm for the Beretta Model 38 SMG. That is screwed up, but it is an example of "special" SMG loads.)

Velocity listings for Russian guns with Russian ammo and Czech guns with Czech ammo from W.H.B. Smith "Small Arms of the World", Stackpole, 1966.
The Model 52 pistol is a native design which has borrowed its locking mechanism from the German MG42 machine gun. The pistol is chambered for the Czechoslovak-made version of the Soviet 7.62mm Type P pistol cartridge, which the Czechoslovaks call the Model 48. The Soviet and Czechoslovak cartridges are interchangeable with the 7.63 Mauser, but are considerably hotter loadings than are the United States commercial loadings of this cartridge. For this reason, the functioning of Soviet and Czechoslovak weapons with commercially loaded 7.63mm cartridges is, at beast, minimal. The Czechoslovak cartridge has a particularly heavy loading, being about 20% heavier than the Soviet.

That is "heavier" in the sense of higher velocity than the Russian 7.62x25 fired from pistols or SMGs of similar barrel lengths. That is not necessarily "heavier" in the sense of chamber pressure, since you can get higher velocity with the same chamber pressure using a slower burning powder: anyone ever notice the muzzle flash of a CZ52 being fired with Czech 7.62x25mm ammo?

The CZ 52 pistol was designed to handle the recoil of the Czech M48 7.62x25mm load better than one would expect the Tokarev pistol to handle the recoil of the M48 round. It has nothing to do with claims of increased chamber pressure, but with claims of increased muzzle velocity, increased muzzle energy and (opposite and equal reaction) increased recoil velocity and energy.

Damage to 7.63 Mauser C96 pistols from 7.62x25mm ammo is not pressure: it is increased recoil impulse battering the bolt stop until the barrel extension cracks at the rear behind the bolt stop.

Carl N. Brown
August 20, 2011, 10:03 PM
But, to answer the opening post, PPU (Prvi Partizan) 7.62x25 is mild mannered in my CZ52 compared to some S&B loads (and quite accurate so far). I have not tried Prvi Partizan 7.63 loads in my CZ52 and only fire my handloads in my C96 (using .312" bullets) since the rifling is so far gone it won't stablize bullets in commercial 7.63 Mauser or 7.62x25mm ammunition.

What I have read, is that the overall length of casings in 7.63 Mauser run .98 to .99 in. or 24.9 to 25.15 mm and in 7.62 Tokarev run .958 to .98 in. or 24.3 to 25 mm. Mauser cartridges tend to have slightly longer necks. 7.63 Mauser (.30 Mauser) casings loaded to Mauser specifications apparently work in 7.62 Tokarev pistols; however, Starline Brass warns against using untrimmed Mauser brass with loads intended for the 7.62 Tokarev.

Onmilo
August 20, 2011, 10:29 PM
7.62X25 Tokarev should not be fired in a Mauser or any early 7.63 Mauser pistol design.
7.63 Mauser is OK to fire in a Tokarev.
As for accuracy and performance one never knows how any ammo will do until they actually shoot it in their gun.
One persons experience in their gun will not necessarily work out the same in your own gun.

There was some Czech subgun ammo imported that WILL damage a Tokarev and WILL DESTROY a Mauser.
The stuff will also break a CZ52.
I know this for a fact because our gun shop had a bunch of it and had to deal with replacing some destroyed guns because of the ammo when the importer suddenly ceased to be.

The stuff was packaged in dark green boxes with 7.63mm on the top.

I still have a box stashed somewhere and will provide headstamp info if I can find it.

barnetmill
August 21, 2011, 03:29 PM
Much of the Czech 7.62x25 ammo whether lead or steel core comes in stripper clips and I believe that one of the the CZ submachinegun comes with a guide on it to accept the stripper clips for recharging the magazines.

Mizar
August 21, 2011, 04:09 PM
PPU is one good ammo manufacturer - if they claim that they make a 7.63 Mauser round I tend to believe it. Simple fact is that not only US made (or makes) good, quality ammunition. BTW, the only difference between Russian SMG and pistol ammunition is packaging - 70 round cardboard boxes vs 16 round paper packages.

Boris

jonnyc
August 22, 2011, 10:21 AM
"the only difference between Russian SMG and pistol ammunition is packaging - 70 round cardboard boxes vs 16 round paper packages."

Sort of, but let's be clear...it is exactly the same ammo, just different packaging.

Mizar
August 22, 2011, 12:59 PM
Well, that is exactly what I was trying to say, Jonnyc.

Boris

Shadow 7D
August 22, 2011, 01:24 PM
OMG, I have the boxes, does that mean my sub gun is going to blow up like Hiroshima??

cougar1717
August 22, 2011, 02:06 PM
Take it with a grain of salt, I have heard this only, never experienced it. I have heard that although the 7.63 Mauser ammo is slightly longer than 7.62 Tok ammo, it is possible to shoot the Mauser ammo in a Tok gun but the downside is that a large percentage of the brass will extract with mangled/deformed/ripped off case necks.

Carl N. Brown
August 22, 2011, 02:18 PM
7.63 Mauser (.30 Mauser) casings loaded to Mauser specifications apparently work in 7.62 Tokarev pistols; Starline Brass warns against using untrimmed Mauser brass with loads intended for the 7.62 Tokarev.

barnetmill
August 22, 2011, 11:54 PM
Years ago I did fire fire commercial US .30 mauser ammo in a WWII russian tokarev pistol (Bring back by relative with US Army) with no difficulties. It also worked with european loaded mauser pistol ammo.

jonnyc
August 23, 2011, 02:39 PM
"I have heard that although the 7.63 Mauser ammo is slightly longer than 7.62 Tok ammo, it is possible to shoot the Mauser ammo in a Tok gun but the downside is that a large percentage of the brass will extract with mangled/deformed/ripped off case necks."

You're right to be skeptical, it's crap.

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